jointhefediverse.net seems to be a commonly linked resource for directing people to join the Fediverse.
Curiously, it does not list Lemmy under the list of Reddit alternatives. Their GitHub README explains why.
Previous relevant discussion: https://lemmy.ml/post/78808
This is so stupid. Did everyone stop using ballpoint pens because the inventor was a nazi? No.
Could you, like, maybe post the explanation we’re supposed to be discussing for context instead of making us go search for it?
Why was Lemmy removed from the list of fediverse alternatives?
Lemmy was removed due to:
- reports of how the developers handle certain types of content (post removed, view an incomplete archive)
- the behavior of its creator
- how the sotware itself handles users’ privacy.
Keep in mind that software is by no means “neutral”. The people who make it make decisions about how it works based on their beliefs and goals. That’s why, for example, you can’t quote posts on Mastodon (at least for now), but you can do so on other fediverse platforms.
Thanks! Damn, maybe I should move to Mbin. Anyone know if there’s a good mobile client for it?
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The reasoning they give is ludicrous. That’s idiotic as saying because someone put up a pedophile website, Apache is the devil. Even if Apache were built by NAMBLA, if it’s opensource and doesn’t randomly insert pictures of naked kids into your website, how does the developer matter to the product?
“I’m gonna stop using GNU/Linux because I don’t like Richard Stallman”
It’s valid to dislike the devs (I disagree, I’ve found them nothing but courteous, and have read their posts with interest), but it’s ridiculous to exclude their software from this list.
Hmmmm, could it be the totalitarian-fellating developers? 🤔
Seems very quiet: https://raddle.me/new
Valid concern imo, Dev’s are just dickheads
No, they aren’t.
It’s just a random person that registered a domain. Be the change you want to see and make your own?
I mean, personally I don’t disagree with that random person 😂
How much effort do you think Meta, Twitter, and Reddit put into getting open social media people to fight against themselves?
They can do whatever shit they want with their instance and believe whatever they want. The software they make provably doesn’t have any more biases than any other software. As long as that’s the case, I’m fine.
Maybe there’s something in the codebase that sends all our data to North Korea… who knows.
We do, because it’s open source
Have you read all the code though? Everyone assumes that somebody else will read every single file of the source code, and understand it all. Malicious code can be obfuscated.
Yeah, but it’s guilt by association. Think about how X is now. Its owner is an asshole, and that hurts the platform regardless of how many cool people use it.
X is under total control of that person. As long as the lemmy source adheres to fediverse principles, this developer can believe whatever they want and run their instance however they want, and no one else has to care. If his beliefs starts affecting the lemmy source, it’s always an option to fork.
If you exclude a branch of the fediverse because of one bad instance, you’re missing the point of the fediverse.
And you’re missing the point of my point.
If people who don’t already know how lemmy is run, are curious and read that shit and think the owner/operator of lemmy is a huge douchebag tankie that deletes/bans everything he doesn’t like… it bodes poorly for new people coming to lemmy.
So therefore- the rest of us are guilty as a result of association with the aforementioned douchebag.
Lemmy was removed due to:
- reports of how the developers handle certain types of content (post removed, view an incomplete archive)
- the behavior of its creator
- how the sotware itself handles users’ privacy.
All valid concerns.
No, they’re not.
how the developers handle certain types of content
Doesn’t matter if you stay away from .ml.
the behavior of its creator
Kind of valid, but open source and open license negates a lot of that.
how the sotware itself handles users’ privacy.
You think anything else on the Fediverse is better? When you post something publicly, it’s public. Doesn’t really matter what the software does. If you don’t have End to End encryption, it’s not private.
These concerns, and more, are why just today, during a conversation with some friends looking to get off traditional social media, I advised them to join pixelfed, peer tube, mastodon, and loops, but suggested they strictly avoid Lemmy.
The communities aren’t right for anyone who isn’t seeking something exactly like Lemmy or leftie-Reddit-lite. I don’t even really like it here all that much anymore. Not the content; the interactions… across all my accounts… even joining “nicer” spaces is not a particularly nice or pleasant experience, plus the more interested is a woman, and Lemmy is a horrible sausagefest echo chamber not at all suited to a normal average woman person who isn’t techie. I’m techie, so I’m used to the vibe, but for your average cis-woman, Lemmy is a very very bad fit.
Bring on the downvotes if you like (the echo-chamber anti-voice sentiment is part of why people shouldn’t be recommended this platform, after all) but these are legit concerns for people who may want to join, and those of us already here can and do steer people elsewhere as a result.
Lemmy is a horrible sausagefest echo chamber not at all suited to a normal average woman person who isn’t techie.
Far be it from me to point out this is exactly how reddit started.
The foundational promise of lemmy and the fediverse writ large is freedom from proprietary software and closed-protocols; the kind of people who are going to be interested in seeking out those types of alternatives are going to gravitate toward techy men.
It takes time for new social media sites to fan outward from their initial adopters, that’s just how it goes.
Fair points, to be honest. We can all do better.
Point 1 and 2 really need to be addressed.
It would be so much better if lemmy wasn’t developed by genocide white-washing tankies.
https://piefed.social/ is catching up
Python based: I was looking for that
Yeah, I don’t expect it to scale well. Certainly not as well as Rust.
In terms of incoming federation, PieFed sites are dealing with as much activity as any general Lemmy instance. It’s not happened yet, but I suppose it’s possible that problems will become apparent if the amount of local users gets over a certain size. A limit on the amount of users per instance isn’t necessarily a bad thing though (it’s cheap, and hopefully easy enough, for someone to spin up another one).
Any way to migrate a self hosted lemmy instance to piefed?
No, it’s not geared up for that. There’s a platform called sublinks where the intention is to be initially compatible enough with Lemmy that it can be a drop-in replacement, but they haven’t released anything yet.
Oh interesting, thanks for sharing!
just run both!
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Have you checked how muh software do you use that is enabled by capitalism?
You should ask it on lemmygrad.ml :D
Excuse me?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SDF_Public_Access_Unix_System
wow that’s interesting :D
SDF is pretty rad.
Yee
The linked post given on the second point is a bit flimsy. It’s basically saying that if you use evidence published by a person with shitty views, you must have them too. To me, that’s absurd as claiming that referencing FBI statistics makes someone a federal agent.
To me the first one is an instance problem (ml, hexbear?), and not a lemmy problem. It has looked like they’ve been trying to separate the two as much as possible.
But the Lemmy project and specific instances are not so easily separated. From the archived mastodon thread:
lemmy.ml (the official Lemmy instance) resolves to the same IP address as lemmygrad.ml (the instance that contains the most disturbing material).
Lemmy.ml also federates with lemmygrad, and the devs advertise lemmygrad on their “join lemmy” site.
Do the Lemmy developers themselves run the lemmygrad.ml site? (Its main logo is a tank, incidentally.)
So yeah, newcomers are presented with a join-lemmy site that promotes Lemmygrad and Lemmy ML, both of which appear to be run by the Lemmy devs.
That pretty much makes it a Lemmy problem.
On what basis can anyone declare one instance to be the ‘main’ one? I’ve seen a number of people claim the same thing about .world, but none of them need to be considered the ‘main’ ones. The entire motivation for the creation of the fediverse is to allow segmentation… I think people simply want to make it an issue because without these little cross-community spats things get boring.
I agree that ideally the concept of “main instances” is beside the point in a federated network. Let’s call them “flagship” or “onboarding instances” then, the initial ones set up by developers as proof of concept that usually get the most traction by way of being open for registrations the longest.
I think it’s disingenuous to classify the decision to omit Lemmy from a list of fediverse software as “a spat”, though. Bringing it up again 1½ years later probably fits the bill better.
that usually get the most traction by way of being open for registrations the longest.
But lemmy.ml isn’t the most active, nor does it host the most active communities
Unfortunately, .ml is a default instance and the main devs instance, what happens there reflects on all of us
Default where?
I don’t see it on that page. Going to “See all servers” lists “lemmy.ml” at a random position in the list. Looking at “Join a server” and using “Generic” or “All topics” also lists it in a random position. Am I missing something?
If you use “Most active”, it will shows up after lemm.ee and the other big instances. So not default, but would still be recommended to new joiners
Well to me that doesn’t fit the “it’s default” description.
While looking at that, I couldn’t see lemmy.world on that page. I found that join-lemmy.org now excludes instances with >30% user share in order to dampen centralisation. Which makes sense I guess.
It was made very clear from the start that .ml was not meant to be a ‘default instance’.
Too bad for all of us that it is though.
If anything is too bad, it’s .world being so prominent.
Half this comm’s activity is spreading FUD about the platform and being a gathering place for all the people developing their alternatives to huddle and advertise those.
How was it default? I’ve been here for years and in all that time, it was never default. It was one of the most popular, and the most widely shared, but that’s not the same at all.
To me, the only solution to this is to do a hard fork. Take the code (It’s AGPL), rename it if Lemmy is trademarked, and encourage admins to use it and contributors to target it. Maybe start a non-profit or LLC while we’re at it.
Sublinks is doing a rewrite
Good luck finding Rust devs interested in link aggregators. That fork would probably fall behind, and people would switch back to Lemmy as they keep delivering features.
Mbin and Piefed use more popular languages and haven’t caught up yet
Instead of trying to fork, maybe we try and go the Gotosocial way and make a MVP smol version. Something that can house 10 or so users. People can spin up whatever they want.
Honestly what I wouldnt give for a reddit theme on mastodon that uses their hashtags as the communities themselves. That would be cool in my opinion.
To be honest, at this point forking the jointhefediverse website would probably be easier
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The links from the github in case anyone wants to learn more (in order of the list):
https://web.archive.org/web/20210901023138/https://mstdn.social/@feditips/106835057054633379
https://raddle.me/f/lobby/96713/heads-up-the-tankie-behind-lemmy-ml-got-banned-from-r
https://raddle.me/f/lobby/155371/warning-lemmy-doesn-t-care-about-your-privacy-everything-is
First link is completely unviewable for me on mobile, the entire thread is a chain of posts that say “Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression” with a show more button that doesn’t work, and the original thread is gone. Could you(/someone) paste what it says? I’d try on desktop but our internet has been out since the fires started in LA
Entire thread, all from the same user:
Post 1
Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
Human rights mean a lot to me. I joined the Fediverse to make the world a nicer place. My efforts are pathetically small, but hopefully make at least a tiny difference.
I used to recommend Lemmy very strongly, thought the people who develop it were nice folks interested in making the world better too.
However, recent discussions with the developers has changed my mind completely.
I am very suspicious about their motivations now.
1/6
Post 2
Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
Lemmy’s developers say “we are strictly against all forms of oppression (including genocide), and dont allow anything that promotes or supports oppression” and “We definitely are very staunchly against bigotry or persecution of minorities, and are strict about banning that”.
This is difficult to fully reconcile with what actually happens on the developers’ own instance, and those they feature.
2/6
Post 3
Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
The problem here isn’t Lemmy’s politics, but their attitude to threads about human rights violations.
On the face of it, the developers’ main Lemmy instance has lots of uncontroversial general interest threads, but when you start digging on controversial topics a worrying pattern emerges.
The worrying posts are very reminiscent of the way certain churches have handled priest abuse claims: denial.
3/6
Post 4
Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
There’s threads denyng the oppression of Uyghur muslims (this oppression has been well documented by NGOs, for example: https://www.amnesty.org.uk/actions/help-end-repression-uyghurs-china).
Other posts deny that North Korea is oppressive.
Meanwhile, another suggests celebrating Stalin’s birthday as he was such a great guy.
(Incidentally, I have receipts, DM me if you want to see them for yourself.)
4/6
Post 5
Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
You get the picture.
These posts were on the main Lemmy instance, as featured on the official Lemmy website.
Over the past few days I have tried to engage with Lemmy about these posts in private, as I was sure it must be a misunderstanding.
However, Lemmy said that “none of the posts you linked are against our rules”, and refused to even discuss the actual issues because “this format is not conducive to political disagreements”.
5/6
Post 6
Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
I deeply regret ever having publicised Lemmy. I’m really sorry.
Don’t use Lemmy.
For whatever my opinion is worth any more, I would now recommend that people cancel their donations to Lemmy, stay as far away from Lemmy as possible, and donate to another Fediverse project instead.
I was wondering whether to stay quiet, but it seemed better to speak up and say something
6/6
Post 7
Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
p.s. I put the wrong link for Amnesty, the Uyghur report is here:
Post 8
Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
p.p.s. Someone has pointed out that lemmy.ml (the official Lemmy instance) resolves to the same IP address as lemmygrad.ml (the instance that contains the most disturbing material).
Lemmy.ml also federates with lemmygrad, and the devs advertise lemmygrad on their “join lemmy” site.
Do the Lemmy developers themselves run the lemmygrad.ml site? (Its main logo is a tank, incidentally.)
Post 9
Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
p.p.p.s. There was an older “reddit for the Fediverse” project called Prismo which had some working instances at one point.
Perhaps someone could resurrect it, to provide an alternative to Lemmy?
Thank you!
since the fires started in LA
Sorry to hear
Thanks, fortunately I’m not in any evacuation zones, it’s just really bad air quality here
This is why I’m looking forward to Sublinks launching.
Piefed is more promosing. Sublinks has been on hold for a while now
Wait wait…what’s that last one?
It has mbin and piefed on the list, so it’s not harming the network at all. If anything it’s more healthy with more platforms rather than just ml and world. It’s one site directing people to the fedi, I’m not butthurt about it
It’s almost certainly because of the tankie factory that is .ml and the fact that it’s admins are all hard core tankies (including the main dev! And ofc the whole infamous Nutomic transphobe incident)
Coupled with the fact that a few of the biggest communities are on .ml does not bode well.
That’s why I keep calling for a general boycott against posting content or comments on .ml communities.
.ml doesn’t want growth, they want a tankie echo chamber, if anybody wants to actually see Lemmy grow at a healthy pace it starts with shuning the hostile tankies and their instances.
Coupled with the fact that a few of the biggest communities are on .ml does not bode well.
https://lemmyverse.net/communities?order=active_month
- 0 community in the top 10
- 2 communities in the top 20
That’s why I keep calling for a general boycott against posting content or comments on .ml communities.
!linux@programming.dev is a good alternative to !linux@lemmy.ml
Well I was going by subscriber count, but good to know that it’s not as bleak going by (probably more accurate metric to go by) MAUs, but still memes@lemmy.ml is #10 in the top 10
For memes either !memes@lemmy.world or !memes@sopuli.xyz is a good alternative to memes@lemmy.ml
Isn’t number 10 !politics@lemmy.world ?
Also, by the active numbers metrics, those other memes communities definitely took over the ml one
Oh it is, ig I miscounted lol
Still many top tech communities (in their niche) are on ML. Open source, Linux, Privacy, Raspberry Pi, Firefox come to mind.
Several hexbear communities are also in the top 50.
I mentioned l !linux@programming.dev already
The alternatives are there, most of the people just don’t seem to care enough to leave the .ml ones
Several hexbear communities are also in the top 50.
Are they? I see 2.6k monthly active users for !chapotraphouse@hexbear.net, which is definitely lower than top 50, seems more like 80 or 90, or even past 100 (currently on my phone, can’t really count accurately, and Lemmyverse doesn’t have row numbers)
I do use all the ML alternatives, but engagement is notably lower. I almost wish LW would just bite the bullet and defederate from ML.
Yeah, maybe more like top 100 for hexbear. I am on mobile too.
Yes, I guess for tech people the political stances are irrelevant, they just want the most active communities
Having access to the devs via !lemmy@lemmy.ml and !lemmy_support@lemmy.ml is probably why
I almost wish LW would just bite the bullet and defederate from ML.
I get the feeling that even if you got what you wanted, you would still complain about .ml
Right now, you could block .ml personally. Have you blocked .ml?
I have not, no. There are still some technology communities that are only present on ML. Outside of those, I do not interact with ML.
And what’s with your prima donna attitude? What exactly is the problem with calling out an instance run by genocide white-washing tankie scum?
Everyone should defederate from that toxic shithole. It serves no purpose that isn’t duplicated elsewhere only without the heavy-handed admin/mod team.
I almost wish LW would just bite the bullet and defederate from ML.
I really don’t understand why they won’t, they did it with lemmygrad and hexbear but with .ml they wanna take this kid glove approach. The best theory I got is they don’t want to because of the more active communities on there ig
Having access to the devs via !lemmy@lemmy.ml and !lemmy_support@lemmy.ml is probably why
Make your own instance and defederate .ml or any of the other instances you hate. Go nuts! Show us how it’s done.
sorry, but what does tankie mean?
Generally, those who praise authoritarian regimes who mask, or attempt to, themselves in the cloak of communism/socialism e.g. China or Russia and are SUPER anti-West (Parroting views of the China Russian regime)
Which comes with a whole host of shit takes, like Russia being justified in their invasion or even denying Tiennamen Square and definitely denying the China Uyghur genocide
Basically, they’ve gone so far left they’ve circled back into Right-wing authoritarianism
oh i thought tankie means different here
Same, no idea… Tank wearing people? Lol
That’s why I keep calling for a general boycott against posting content or comments on .ml communities.
I mean…I joined that boycott months ago, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen you before this moment.
Bro. I just posted a meme about it 3 days ago
And I post from time to time about it, enough that some of the more prominent .ml users have started to take notice lmao
I’ve also been consistently for weeks now cross-posting a ton of fresh (non-tankie anyways) content to the relevant non-.ml communities, it’s like the bulk of my posts rn lol
That’s nice, thanks for your posts
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I wrote this before
I spotted Dessalines posted literal propaganda on some community I joined
gotta be honest that does not sit well with me
Switch to Piefed or Mbin?
Yep. And note how the other mods/admins are almost always found commenting alongside them.
