Yeah but deciding not to vote for Biden just feels like a good trendy way to express my sympathies with Palestineans… /s
I hope this gets posted in all the leftist boards. People need to understand Biden is a continuation of the United States’ wishy-washy policies on Palestinians whereas Trump is pedal to the floor full acceleration towards genocide. Biden has shown he can at least be pressured into taking minor steps in the right direction. Being able to claim moral purity at the expense of a genocided Palestine will ring pretty hollow.
Looking forward to what the Republicans cosplaying as leftists use instead of “genocide Joe” now that Donald is calling for a final solution.
It will most likely continue to get used completely unironically along with cheering on the bombs.
Pick one:
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Geriatric Joe, the president too senile to make up his mind on which side to support.
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Gray-area Joe, the weak president that refuses to take a stance on foreign affairs.
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Bystander Biden, the president that did nothing to end the Israel-Palestine war.
And so forth. They’ll always find some other stupid thing to blame him for.
It’s an election year, they’re just trying to get their favorite orange fash in office. Horseshoe theory is a bitch.
I kinda like Bystander Biden tbh
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Fark Brandon
Along with what everyone else is saying, I think they could probably still try to make an attempt at taking like, a false moral position, along the lines of an accelerationism-style “oh, well, trump seeking to escalate the war would end it more quickly, thus, saving more lives in the long run” kind of thing. Obviously based on kind of false pretenses, but then, I think a lot of their political positions kind of assume war and resource extraction as an inevitability, and power as an ultimate moral good, on a deeper level, and the fascism and propaganda mind games they play are just kind of a stupid extension of that.
Its not republicans, its russian shills/bots… ok wait… yeah, guess ur right.
And for the life of me, his correct name that ive been pushing since 2019, is Status Quo Joe. It was an insult then, cant believe its a vague defense now.
I have a strict “no genocide” policy. Candidates that promote, endorse, allow, or sit idly by and let others do genocide are gonna be a no go from me.
It’s not going to change unless we make demands.
Removed by mod
How about you make demands all the time instead of only when it’s politically convenient for people who don’t give a shit?
Because that’s exactly how you will get steamrolled. You’re lucky there’s people like us looking out for people like you.
It’s The White Man’s Burden.
Numbnutz, clown, shill. Very convincing rhetoric. If the 100,000 in Michigan who voted uncommitted had heard these eloquent shibboleths, surely they would have changed their minds.
Do what you want in the primaries. That is the time for it (although not voting doesn’t do anything still). We are obviously talking about the general.
If the 100,000 in Michigan who voted uncommitted
Not to mention the 19% of voters in Minnesota who voted uncommitted
United States’ wishy-washy policies on Palestinians
Wishy-washy policies is my favorite way to say “apartheid ethnostate”
I mean, Biden absolutely is wishy washy.
But he also reversed Trump’s policy of saying West Bank settlement is legal, and sanctioned violent Israeli settlers.
Obviously Gaza’s really bad, but what’s happened and happening in the West Bank is also arguably ethnic cleansing. Chasing Palestinians off their land. Trump’s a fan.
But he also reversed Trump’s policy of saying West Bank settlement is legal, and sanctioned violent Israeli settlers.
Israel announced this month that they are authorizing the creation of increased settlements in the West Bank.
If Biden used the power of the United States to stop this and to undo the existing illegal settlements then he would deserve credit. He will never choose to do this though. This is because Biden, and all mainstream Democrats and Republicans, are Zionists who believe Israel should not be forcibly prevented from expanding its current borders.
Trump is worse. But mainstream politicians are also horrific. It is equivalent to the choice between the gradualist death by a thousand cuts used by John Roberts vs the immediate exercise of power used by Samuel Alito. Either way, liberty and morality will be destroyed.
We need to demand better as American citizens. No one else can correct the United States but us
Biden is a continuation of the United States’ wishy-washy policies on Palestinians whereas Trump is pedal to the floor full acceleration towards genocide.
If these are the only options that our system offers us, then why shouldn’t we demand our system be replaced?
Democrats are inadequate, Republicans are worse. If this is the only choice available within the United States, then why do we citizens allow the United States to continue?
If its a primary then fuck Biden, but if it’s the General Election then the blue name on the ballot is who gets the check.
I am convinced a good chunk of the “genocide Joe” crew are agents provocateurs.
You’re may be right. I assume most of them are ‘useful idiots’.
They realised western media were often biased, so they switched to ‘critical’ media, spent more and more time in internet bubbles, and ended up uncritically parroting Russian, Chinese or Iranian propaganda instead.
Same thing happened after 9/11 and Iraq. A lot of people were angry about how biased CNN was, so they switched to channels like Russia Today because it was critical of the US and did genuinely have a lot of good journalism. Of course, that doesn’t mean Russia Today isn’t propaganda. A lot of these people are forever lost, I don’t think you can deprogram them.
Also if people use a lot of slogans like “cultural marxism”, “Fuck Brandon” or “genocide Joe”, without being able to articulate a nuanced position, it’s likely they’ve succumb to newspeak. Newspeak uses an impoverished and simplified vocabulary, to prevent people from critical thinking.
I don’t think that “Fuck Brandon” is indicative of much. Especially since Biden himself has heavily leaned into the “Dark Brandon” persona since 2022.
You can’t claim that people who use the term “Brandon” are brainwashed when Biden’s own campaign uses the term - and even sells merchandise with the name/image depicted on it
Unless you’re claiming that Dems/libs are also brainwashed, along with MAGA-types and the uncritical portions of the “dirtbag left”. In which case you’re correct, but likely unintentionally as that cuts against your broader point
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It must feel amazing to be held hostage by a ineffective political party that knows that if you don’t vote for them then the alternative will be much worse.
The salient point is that Trump is endorsing a pogrom.
Your takeaway from a story about a former President of the United States of America endorsing ethnic cleansing, is that a backhanded shot should be taken at the other party?
I mean… It kinda sounded like gallows humor
This is a particularly great comparison.
Biden isn’t doing enough to stop Palestinians from getting mowed down in food lines. He’s so focused on appealing to the right that he’s making the left lose hope
Trump is cheering it on, you know how he gets around authoritarians who commit human rights violations
One of these is clearly much worse than the other. No question. But the end result doesn’t feel different
Every step forward is too little so late… Even the article this last week “Biden speaks out against Netanyahu” was him very carefully calling for a cease fire.
It’s so little, so late… We’re all waiting for him to go Darth Brandon and do something big. Something that’ll give the left hope, and involve him making some deserving enemies
It feels like shit but whatever plan you have isn’t gonna change it
Holding us hostage by… progressive voters choosing not to show up in the primaries.
Admittedly, bitching online is much easier and doesn’t involve leaving the house but still…
FYI, voting doesn’t require leaving the house either. Register to vote by mail!
Must be amazing to think that there’s a giant majority of Socialists in America and the only thing holding them back is the DNC.
Bernie.
You’re proving my point here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2020_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries
Bernie had four years to organize, and got 10 million fewer votes than Biden.
Am I?
Bernie himself expressed disappointment that he was unable to get the turnout he wanted, especially among young people. His campaign had a flawed goal to only target 40% of the vote, and his argument for victory was that he would turn out so many young people and disaffected nonvoters.
That didn’t happen in the primary, and there wasn’t a significant difference between open and closed primaries to suggest closed primaries were the culprit. Ironically when total voter count decreased, in caucuses, it was Bernie who was favored.
If you want to blame someone for his loss, blame the fact that youth turnout wasn’t 100% for a trustworthy candidate who was promising free college, student loans forgiveness, legal weed, and free universal healthcare. I was 24 that year, so I’m not criticizing “the youth” in general, but my age cohort of tail end millennials.
So, what exactly do I call a young person who heard a politician speaking to their issues, and at that a politician who consistently showed courage and was genuine, and sat out?
Sanders was exactly what’s described. Someone to vote for. I understand cynicism, but if you actually want to see people who tackle issues you care about, you have to take the first step of voting for them. It isn’t going to happen otherwise.
How else do you expect to stop being disillusioned by politicians unless you give someone the chance? It is absolutely correct to call them apathetic, and they shot themselves in the foot. We don’t have the luxury of running five different Bernie Sanders types before they finally get off their ass.
It’s harsh, but it seems like harsh is what they need to actually affect change. Roe being overturned generated much larger electoral consequences than candidates who would’ve kept Roe.
It is amazing that some people think that Biden can snap his fingers and Israel jumps to attention. Israel is a country that attacked the USS Liberty! Biden didn’t start the conflict. People on both sides have died. You can’t stop trains, super tankers of countries on a dime. It would be nice, however if folks would actually try to understand what is being done and why. Hint: you won’t find in in the MSM or from Putin’s trolls. Then again, mindless online bitching is so much easier.
Yeah, you can’t just call up Israel, threaten US aid, and tell them to end hostilities: that only worked when Reagan and did it! And when HW Bush did it! /s
I dont understand this idea that the US has no leverage when we are sending Israel billions of dollars. Without US resupply, several crucial Israeli military systems would be forced to shut down.
Well uh when you have the US Navy under your command, and already in the area dealing with Houthis, you know, by shooting down their missiles and bombing them and such, you actually /can/ stop trains and tankers.
You could airlift aid! You could, hilariously, stop ships heading to Israel with a Naval Blockade!
Obviously that last one isnt going to happen, but theres a whole lot more than basically nothing that you could do.
For starters: Cut off a bunch of joint projects between US and Israeli firms, stop sending them large amounts of money for other things, stop fucking shit canning every attempt by the UN to sanction Israel, or maybe even use these aforementioned things as threats and leverage to force a fucking ceasefire.
And now because this is the internet: Am I saying that Trump is somehow not bad, not far, far, far fucking worse by pointing out the rest?
Nooooo!
No, fucking obviously Trump would be a thousand times worse!
But pretending that there’s nothing Biden could do is a joke.
He doesn’t because he is a long time Zionist, and the American public, and particularly political and media figures, have been bathed in Zionist propaganda for so long that it takes an overt genocide for us to figure out that maybe Israel actually isn’t a perfect unconditional ally.
Amazing? I just feel helpless.
Biden: We’ve been reluctantly supporting a very close ally, but it’s gone too far, and now we’re publicly condemning while admittedly still funding them. It’s a complicated situation, and I’m a cautious centrist.
Trump: Why are there still buildings standing in Gaza? That won’t happen on my watch. May as well wipe out the West Bank while we’re at it.
For the life of me, I can’t tell the difference. I have no idea who to vote for to help the Palestinians.
There is no one to vote for to help the Palestinians.
The only hope for Gaza is for Biden to change course and use his significant leverage to convince Bibi to end the blockade.
If the status quo of famine is allowed to continue, there will be no Gazans left to bomb when Trump is sworn in on Jan 2025.
The only hope for Gaza is for Biden to change course and use his significant leverage to convince Bibi to end the blockade.
Five months and almost 31,000 Palestinian deaths later, he’s still just wagging his finger and sending even more arms to Israel.
We might as well just wait for the Pope to shit in the woods.
Edit: Here’s the most likely reason for the downvotes.
(NSFW - language)
Nah the Pope is going after the real threat. Trans youth. I wish that I was kidding…
Over the past few months, Francis had to cancel a few activities and one international trip due to his fragile health, which has recently raised worries over his capacity to continue to lead the Catholic Church.
Maybe he’s having cognitive issues, too, which might explain (but not excuse) his erratic behavior.
When your highly nuanced and extremely educated political stance is obliterated by an extremely obvious fact that you forgot to consider because you got lost in the sauce of [current hot conversation topic] for [I’m a Leftist!™] identifying individuals.
I mean I was personally waiting for Trump to say the obvious and finish the punchline for the last couple weeks honestly.
I mean, thats good, but unfortunately a huge (over-representative?) amount of online leftist discourse is so subsumed by extremely emotionally driven short sighted glomming onto bullying a particular person that they often say things that are basically obviously ludicrous if you either take a few deep breathes and think about what you’re saying, or if you’re not really involved in the often extremely petty nature of discourse around/perpetuated by many popular online leftists.
But hey, Not All Leftists, I guess?
Its frankly deeply embarrassing to accurately describe myself as a leftist and then have less politically engaged people often think I’m like one of these over the top internet personalities, and also infuriating when I describe myself as a leftist to other leftists online, who then usually woke scold and purity shame me for having non ludicrous positions.
Hell I’m still banned from like half the hexbear and lemmy.ml communities for pointing out that maybe Taiwan has expressed a desire for governmental sovereignty, you know kind of like Ukraine, even though its obviously not a perfect society, it doesnt deserve to be invaded or subverted by a neighboring state?
Nah. Verbotten opinions.
I think the latest hexbear community to ban me did so because I posted a response to an ‘enigmatic, therefore funny and awesome’ meme on weibo.
The meme, a kind of wojack meme, boils down to ‘Dengist reforms allowed western influence into China, which has resulted in nowadays Chinese incels pretend to be black men online to pick up chicks because many Chinese basically racistly view black men as all having giant cocks.’
But you can’t even hint that parts of Chinese society might be gasp racist, or even have segments that view women as only interested in big dicked men because this breaks the brains of many online Western leftists that Chinese society is not actually perfect.
Its even more baffling to me that many online Leftists barely ever mention, or tie themselves up in absurd logical/rhetorical pretzels about how just in general many East Asian societies and ethnicities have large chunks that are extremely racist towards other East Asian and other ethnicities, basically because a good number of East Asian societies are nominally communist or socialist, so that must mean they’ve solved racism.
I think all of what you said there can be summed up with.
Comrade, leftists sure can be infuriating to deal with and talk to, huh?
Pretty sure the most vocal ones arent the most productive ones, and as with most ideologies aren’t really representative of the majority. But still can be a headache for everyone involved.
I got banned for pointing out obvious right wing propaganda from a known right wing shill and was told it “emotionally confirmed” how they felt about Biden, so it didn’t matter if it wasn’t entirely factual.
I mean how do you fight back against that?People are such emotional little idiots about the things they feel. It’s nicer to feel right than be it, because reality is very very often very disappointing. But compromise makes you feel wronger.
We are in very emotional times for sure.It’s more comfortable intellectually to think that if everyone was just in favor of X, all the world’s problems would disappear. It’s like an ignorance is bliss effect.
Is that what Biden has said or is that what you want him to say?
This is what I’ve been pointing out all along… Say what you want about Biden funding Israel, Trump is actively worse.
And no, Jill Stein or Cornell West are not viable alternatives.
Just voted for Gabriel Cornejo in my state’s primary. Looked him up, liked his policies, voted for him instead of Vermin Supreme, because no way am I voting for Biden in the primary. It’s purely symbolic, let’s be real, but I did ultimately vote for someone with leftist platform.
It’s not purely symbolic. The bigger candidates often start to address policy positions represented by smaller candidates who get enough votes in the primaries as a way to sway those voters in the general election.
Absolutely! If we can show that there are votes to be taken up by repositioning policies just a little or adding some, then it absolutely in a working 2 party system moves the closest party to adopt those in order to get the votes. And then it’s up to consistent pressure to make sure they are worked on while in office, pest they lose trust and that voter base forever.
It’s a shame, I’m pretty sure the US is not in a working or stable 2 party system.
Yeah, it’s not a total solution, but it’s better than letting the Dems pander to the centrists.
Yeah but the centrists are easy fodder while the right wing has been shifting more to the right after losing support over the years and seeing the fringe party voters as votes they could pick up.
The centrists don’t have a party as easy to back and thus Democrats are picking them up by moving even more center.Unless they think they need the progressive votes, which they don’t at the moment, they won’t care as much for trying to pick up left fringe voters. The middle is just bigger tastier looking prey.
Yeah, that was my point. The primaries are a chance to vote progressive to send the dominant candidate a message.
Right. I’m disagreeing that it will have much of an effect though. Centrists are adrift that would normally vote “fiscally conservative but socially liberal” and lean more Republican because of the bad taste Trump left in their mouth but I think Democrats assume that is an easy voter based to capture by just not doing anything overly crazy and acting fiscally conservative and centrist in their ideology.
So Democrats might pick up some minor left leaning points to make sure they get enough of the left leaning populace but unless a 3rd party candidate gets an incredible primary, in the current state, I don’t expect them to adjust policy much at all. Centrist just likely seems the safer bet to them which is dangerous if they lose them but they are against Trump and MAGA so it’s somewhat a safe gamble.
In better times primarying works but here, and right now, I don’t think the Democrats give a flying fuck.
This right here. There’s no actual threat of weakening Biden by voting against him in the primary, because there’s no real candidate running against him. Voting uncommitted or for a write in the primary is a great way to leverage your voting power without empowering trump.
Yeah, in the primary all options are valid to vote for, even if it’s just symbolic. That still shows where people stand. However, in the general you pick who you need to pick in order to get the best outcome. You don’t get to vote for symbolism then, at least if you’re a rational person and not just doing something out of an emotional attempt to feel better than other people. It sucks, but that’s how the system functions for now at least. Acting morally superior doesn’t do anything except allow the morally corrupt to get their way.
Gabriel Cornejo Identified the leading problem in the country and hired the smartest person in the world to fix it.
And no, Jill Stein or Cornell West are not viable alternatives.
My vote will only ever go to Vermin Supreme.
But what about naz-yay? (Yeay? Yeah?)
The irony of literally anyone (eligible) not voting for Biden specifically because of his handling of the Gaza situation, and thereby doing their part to help Donald “Gotta Finish the Problem” Trump win, makes my bones hurt. I hate this timeline and I don’t want to live on this planet anymore.
Not voting for Biden in the primaries is perfectly fine.
Agreed and I did the same yesterday. Will vote for Biden in the end, but I registered my complaint. As best I can tell, his tone shifted after Michigan so we’ll see if there is more change on the horizon.
I’m usually skeptical of protest votes, but these primary protest votes are actually effective for the same reason voting is effective. Politicians aren’t as static as we want to believe- their number one priority is reelection. When you vote, you are telling the candidates that you are politically useful and they will begin to pay attention to your needs. When you vote for all levels of government, you are giving deeper detail into what your needs are.
If a significant portion of a district votes for a Democrat as president, and then a Republican for state representative, the democratic administration will likely make more conservative decisions if they see that portion of the electorate as critical to reelection.
This naturally reveals a big problem with the electoral college, as there are maybe 5 states with critical demographics needed to win reelection. The people in Ohio, Nevada, Arizona, Georgia, and Michigan are more influential to the type of administration a Republican or Democrat would run.
If the Gaza protest vote happened in Washington State or California, I doubt Biden would have reacted as much as he did for Michigan. That said, this problem politicians face goes from the President of the US down to the president of your HOA. So I’ll acknowledge that the power of voting fluctuates depending on the specific outcome you are measuring, but there are so many variables. In political science you need to learn to live with paradoxes, and this may be one.
Either way, I believe we should keep voting; they are paying attention.
More than fine!
There are primaries for Dems? I thought Biden was automatically the candidate as current POTUS.
There is a whole calendar
https://ballotpedia.org/Changes_to_the_2024_Democratic_presidential_primary_calendar
There is still a primary, but the incumbent has only lost his party’s nomination 4 times, only Democrat Franklin Pierce in 1856 was elected the other 3 ascended from Vice President. It has never happened since the modern primary system was created in the 1970s.
If any American ever has any questions about the Weimar Republic and why Germans didn’t stop Hitler when they still had a chance to do so, just point them to the run up to the 2024 presidential election. People who secretly want fascist leaders will always have an excuse, if one goes away, they already have another excuse waiting.
Everyone knows the Weimar Republic was funding a genocide before they elected Hitler. It’s in the history books, page 420. /s
and did that genocide get worse under Hitler, or ridiculously worse under Hitler? Page 69 will shock you.
Yes and these people become excessively angry with you when you point it out. Their goal isn’t really to find a solution, it is to express discontent. They are divorced enough from reality that when you mention that Trump would be worse, they tend to lash out at you instead.
The irony of literally anyone (eligible) not voting for Biden specifically because of his handling of the Gaza situation
I left my primary ballot blank. There was nobody on the ticket who wasn’t going to continue the genocide (with perhaps Marianna Williamson as an exception, but I’m not indulging her vanity campaign). Come November, I suspect I’ll be in the same spot. Two candidates who are endorsing genocide, with the caveat that one is waving an Israeli sports pennant while the other repeatedly insists he feels really bad about it.
I hate this timeline and I don’t want to live on this planet anymore.
Swing by Gaza. We’ll sell the Israelis the next round of ammo used to wipe you off the face of the Earth.
It’s a good thing that the only responsibility of a US president is deciding what to do about Israel.
If they were the only person able to veto something like a national abortion ban, or legislation criminalizing trans people, it would really mess with your calculus.
It’s a good thing that the only responsibility of a US president is deciding what to do about Israel.
Hey now, that’s not true. He’s also responsible for getting his Too Woke judicial nominees filibustered, appointing a bunch of corporate flacks to the Federal Reserve, doing photo ops at the US-Mexico border while wearing tacti-cool kit and frowning through a pair of binoculars, and fucking up the handling of the next environmental / weather disaster. And who can forget the most important job of any President? Fundraising!
If they were the only person able to veto something like a national abortion ban
Then we’re already fucked, because that would imply all this hemming and hawing about abortion being a losing issue for Republicans failed to pan out and now a bunch of sadistic right-wing fucks are crowding into the House and Senate.
If 2024 was the last election ever, then your logic makes complete sense, and I get to liberals every election is the last election ever, despite us seeing Trump’s desperate and flawed attempts at seizing power. He didn’t get more intelligent in the last 4 years or learn from his mistakes.
Imagine a crazy, crazy world, where Trump wins in 2024 and there’s a 2028 election. I know this is hard for some moderate libs to fathom, but you should recognize it as a real possibility.
If it’s incredibly clear that Biden lost because he’s Genocide Joe, then the next Democratic candidate might be someone younger who is ready to end the genocide (which the U.S is perfectly capable of single-handedly doing).
I’ve met people online that absolutely refuse to even acknowledge this is a possible world. They think Genocide Joe is the absolute best, pro-Gaza leader the Democratic party could ever put forth, and that losing elections due to issues like supporting genocide could never change the rhetoric and actions of future candidates in the party.
It’s fucking mind-numbing how little thought people put into this. Like I’m happy to agree that in a world where Trump wins, the years 2024-2028 are going to be worse in about every conceivable way, but then as we get into 2028 and beyond, there are scenarios that play out better for leftists in that world (e.g we get an anti-genocide, socialist leftist instead of some moderate Republican who is a reincarnation of Biden except on some social issues). The fact that moderate libs REFUSE to acknowledge this possibility is fucking exhausting.
And I’m not saying that it’s guaranteed to be better 2028 and beyond, it’s absolutely not, nobody can make guarantees about the future, but there is undeniable potential value in having Biden lose this election when you look beyond the next 4 years.
Politicians cater to the people who vote. If Democrats lose this November and there is an election 2028 they are going to look at the people who voted in 2024 and 2026 and try to get those people’s votes. If progressives don’t vote in the general election this year Democrats won’t waste time on them and will instead focus on conservative voters. Not voting will drive the Democratic party further to the right.
Withholding our votes doesn’t lead to better election outcomes. Voting should be a simple mechanical choice to pick the lesser evil. If people want better candidates then they need to do the work between elections. Refusing to vote and trying to lower voter turnout sets us back. Losing in 2024 will mean America becomes a fascist dictatorship. There is no value in letting the Republicans win.
I didn’t say withhold your vote, go vote for Jill Stein.
It’s sad that you have to resort to a strawman to make a coherent argument against me. This is the only response to me that’s coherent, I just wish it was a coherent point against an actual position of mine, instead of a made-up position you fabricated.
If 8% of the vote goes to someone who has been openly anti-Israel and pro-Palestine, while crowds are chanting against genocide Joe, it’ll send a pretty clear signal to Democrats what they need to do.
Hoping you’ll apologize for the unnecessary strawman honestly, it’s needlessly exhausting to have to deal with all the inane shit everyone is throwing my way, only to then have to deal with a coherent comment put together against a point I didn’t even make.
I didn’t say withhold your vote, go vote for Jill Stein.
Jill Stein has no chance of winning. She is a spoiler for Joe Biden and so voting for her is, for the purpose of counting the difference in votes between Trump and Biden, the same as not voting. We have a two party, first-past-the-post, political system where Republicans benefit from low voter turnout. So Trump benefits from anyone not voting for Biden.
It’s sad that you have to resort to a strawman to make a coherent argument against me.
A strawman is an argument that argues against a different, usually weaker, position rather than the other argument’s actual position. However if the two positions are in fact equivalent, such as not voting and voting for third party spoiler candidates, then the argument is not a strawman.
If 8% of the vote goes to someone who has been openly anti-Israel and pro-Palestine, while crowds are chanting against genocide Joe, it’ll send a pretty clear signal to Democrats what they need to do.
100,000 people already voted uncommitted in the Michigan Democrat primary, with more in other Democrat primaries undoubtedly on the way. The point has been made and no new information will be gained from any third party voter turnout in November. There is no reason why the Democrats cannot change course on Palestine and Israel right now. This would be much more beneficial, to the Palestinians, than waiting through a Trump presidency to finally get help to them in 2028.
Hoping you’ll apologize for the unnecessary strawman honestly,
My argument is that letting Trump win is not only unacceptable, but is counterproductive to the progressive causes your argument claims will benefit from such a scenario. The Democrats will respond to low voter turnout from progressives by shifting to the right to capture more conservative voters. This is a refutation of you argument’s central point.
it’s needlessly exhausting to have to deal with all the inane shit everyone is throwing my way
There were nothing but solid replies to your comment. I implore you to reconsider.
there were nothing but solid replies to your comments
A comment I received with 9 upvotes: “You may actually have brain damage”.
Most of the other comments were honestly less coherent than this, but this is concise enough and not even relevant to the conversation, so I am really excited to hear how this is a “solid reply” in your book.
A comment I received with 9 upvotes: “You may actually have brain damage”.
In this thread? I’m searching on the words in the quote and I’m not seeing it. Maybe a Mod removed it. I’m not referring to any comment that resorts to ad hominem attacks.
The information gained would be we’re refusing to vote for genocide supporters. Some people, like yourself will vote for someone in support of genocide as long as they’re on the ticket as a Democrat.
If everyone behaves that way, the democratic party doesn’t have to change. They can keep pushing moderate fiscal conservatives like Biden, over and over again, and Democrats will permanently retain power.
If they lose the general election by less than the third party vote, they know there are voters to the left that are voting that they could focus on capturing instead of catering to cultish fascists. Your entire original point was predicated on the idea that the Democrats would have to move right, but in a world where:
-
Republican: 46%
-
Democrat: 45%
-
Green: 8%
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Other: 1%
There’s a very clear strategy for future Democrats to move left to win the election. It’s either purposeful ignorance or genuine stupidity to say the above is EXACTLY THE SAME as:
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Republican: 55%
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Democrat: 45%
This is why the idea of a “spoiler vote” is insanely dumb, especially when you’re advocating for voting for an actual genocide supporter.
The information gained would be we’re refusing to vote for genocide supporters.
The Uncommitted Movement is effectively doing this in the primaries, hopefully without the downside of Biden losing in November. Trump winning would still be catastrophic for the Palestinians, even if there is an election 2028. Trump will green light Israel’s genocide and millions of people will be killed or displaced in that region of the world alone. The Republican party will kill any hope of a Palestinian state happening, as they will undoubtedly support the settler movement. Biden has at least put sanctions on at least 30 Israeli settlers. There is at least of chance of Democrats working to stop the settlers and supporting a Palestinian state.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/04/israel-settler-violence-sanctions
If everyone behaves that way, the democratic party doesn’t have to change. They can keep pushing moderate fiscal conservatives like Biden, over and over again, and Democrats will permanently retain power.
MAGA supporters are going to keep voting for Trump or an equivalent as long as that is an option. They are driving the Republican Party further right, by consistently voting that way. We could do the same with the Democratic Party to drive it to the left. We need to collectively do the work to support potential progressive candidates for future elections, but Biden is the most progressive option we have right now for this election who has any chance to win.
If they lose the general election by less than the third party vote, they know there are voters to the left that are voting that they could focus on capturing instead of catering to cultish fascists.
Exit polling data can break down the ideological differences between Democratic voters. The Democrats will be able to figure out what kind of voters voted for them, without needing progressives to vote third party.
There’s a very clear strategy for future Democrats to move left to win the election. It’s either purposeful ignorance or genuine stupidity to say the above is EXACTLY THE SAME as:
I’m saying it’s the same as:
Republican: 50%
Democrat: 48.91%
Other: 1.09%
Where progressives simply do not vote. Since in both cases Republicans win the presidency. The Democrats are only going to cater to people who vote for them in general elections. edit: capitalization
exit polling data can break down ideological differences
You have an extremely naive view of the world, thinking that exit polling signals the same thing that voting far left does. Constituents aren’t the only interest group politicians listen to, we actually have hard data that for the purposes of at least law making they entirely ignore us, and we have very little influence even beyond that.
The miniscule amount of influence we do have is the ability to remove one party from power. Exit polls come absolutely no where near this in terms of influence. When other interest groups want to continue the Palestinian genocide, and you have exit polls signaling that Democrats are against this (as exit polls have suggested for the last 50 years) then Democrats happily ignore this, as they have been.
We’re in a unique situation where the genocide is ramping up, and for some reason the American left has latched onto this issue (rightfully so, but still surprising). If we actually funnel this clearly into a signal that we will essentially sacrifice our wellbeing (e.g put Trump in power) just to draw the line that genocide support is unacceptable, we might actually see an anti-genocide Democrat for once.
Exit polls are entirely different. They’re fine in a world where there is no institutionalized interest in perpetuating some harm, and the Democratic party is split on some issue, they can look to constituent preferences. But as Joe Biden said best, if Israel did not exist in the middle east, the U.S would have to invent an Israel to protect American interests abroad. Preferences will be ignored without consequences for those in power, and if you think otherwise, again, you’re being naive.
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I am a leftist and the democratic party is no friend of mine. That said:
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I have lost a portion of my bodily autonomy due to republican policies. People I know have avoided getting reproductive care due to draconian republican laws in my state, and lack of control of medical records. Electing a republican will further erode rights for 50% of the nation. Yes, I am talking about women’s reproductive health.
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Republicans are erroding the safety and rights of LGBTQ+ people, in my state and elsewhere. I cannot abide a future where they are able to do this federally.
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Republicans are directly attacking our electoral processes and our partisan supreme court refuses to engage in a timely matter. A bush/gore sort of election issue will send our nation into chaos, or direct civil war. You wish us to imagine a future in which trump wins and there is a 2028 election. I can’t imagine a future where a republican government respects democracy that would allow for a possibility for a democratic (let alone an actual left party) candidate to win. The republican party is no longer a neolib party, they are a party of fascists up for sale to the highest bidder.
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Trump will not just merely support Israel’s genocide. The middle east becomes more and more volatile each day. Remember: Trump had an Iranian general assassinated. I think it’s quite likely we will be dragged into a horrible, hellish war. No heroes, no winners, just unimaginable carnage and human suffering.
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If anyone attempts to engage me with accelerationist rhetoric, know that I will ignore you. I refuse to engage with anyone who believes that an increase in violence is somehow beneficial. You have no idea what you’re asking for, and a glorious leftist revolution is not a possible outcome here.
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If Trump wins in 2024 there won’t be a 2028 election, or at least a not a real one.
In your scenario there would be no Gaza to save in 2028.
False premise.
You’re speaking in certainties when you cannot. The genocide has been perpetuated, on and off, for 75 years. This is the most killing we’ve seen in the region in a short span of time, but we have seen figures close to this in the past 75 years.
Of course there’s a world where Trump is elected, and successfully aids Israel in the extermination of the Palestinians. But you have to admit that that world isn’t a certainty, even if Trump is elected.
There’s also a world where Biden is reelected, his campaign keeps greenlighting the genocide with periodic rhetorical criticism, and then some other fascist Republican or moderate fiscal conservative Democrat comes in in 2028 and finishes the job (the Democrats now emboldened to further ignore the genocide because it costs them nothing).
It’s easier online to speak in certainty about the future, I understand that, but please if you’re going to bother engaging please don’t do it in bad-faith and actually admit where your knowledge ends. You’re not clairvoyant.
Of course there’s a world where Trump is elected, and successfully aids Israel in the extermination of the Palestinians. But you have to admit that that world isn’t a certainty, even if Trump is elected.
You just need to read the headline to this post, not even the article, to see where this argument is a non starter.
I don’t believe Trump’s campaign promises are unwavering truisms that come to fruition 100% of the time. I’m glad you have so much faith in the promises he makes though, so much so that you’d literally call them a certainty and disregard any other possible reality just simply on the basis that Trump said it.
I’ve met a good number of Trump supporters that don’t even have this kind of faith, only his most devout followers take his promises as premonitions of the future.
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Removed, rule 3:
“Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (perjorative, perjorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (perjorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect!”
Look up Project 2025. There will not be a 2028 election if Trump wins 2024. One Day Dictator Donnie won’t stop at one day.
He already tried to seize the capital through force. He has failed, he was the president for 4 fucking years and couldn’t figure out how to dismantle the government. He’s incredibly incompetent, I don’t know why every liberal in the world is clutching their pearls like he’s some kind of mastermind who grew and learned how to overthrow the country.
Trump is a figurehead. The man himself is nothing. If her gets elected, the smart people behind him who actually DO learn from past mistakes will have four years to reshape the government, and last time, things moved FAST.
Not voting does not send the message you think it does. It sends the message that you’re fine with the status quo and content to sit home and let things play out. “Protest” voting in the final election within a 2 party system is the same as not voting. It’s winner take all, and nothing else matters to these people.
I’ve responded to this exact sentiment in at least 4 comments and it’s getting exhausting. Either find my response to this or don’t engage, I don’t really give a fuck. It can’t possibly be my responsibility to educate every genocide-agnostic moderate-lib on the material reality of elections.
Ibid
It’s not like he’s the one coming up with the plan. Project 2025 was written by much more cunning schemers. There are people who saw him fail to take the capital by force, and now seek to enable his success next time.
Project 2025. Downvote me. Shit on my very existence. But read what is planned.
Still uncommitted?
Given that Trump is running in the Republican primary, I’m unsure how this would effect anyone voting uncommitted in a Democratic primary?
Well, you’re implying that you might vote for someone other than Biden in the general, and the impact of that is that Trump will become president and the impact of that is Israel will have a free pass from US leadership to completely annihilate Gaza and kill with impunity. So, in terms of actually achieving the goal of stopping the killing of Palestinians, voting uncommitted is not going to work. Additionally, by promoting voting uncommitted and making it a purity test, some people will be influenced by that and ACTUALLY not vote for Biden and this will be the same thing as voting for Trump in that the result of Trump winning will be the same.
This would be a much more productive conversation if you didn’t just invent things I didn’t say to argue with. I’ve implied no such thing.
I am explicitly using the Democratic primary as a method to express my displeasure with Biden, which you may recognize as the sole reason primaries exist. I’m increasingly confused by how many people seem to not understand that.
Will voting uncommitted or for the crazy crystal healing lady lead to the Democrats having a component and popular general election candidate come November? No, sadly, but that’s a criticism of the state of our decayed democracy not giving voters meaningful avenues to enact change in society, not a criticism of the electoral strategies that have to exist within said decayed democracy.
Will voting uncommitted or for the crazy crystal healing lady lead to Biden making meaningful changes in his stances regarding Palestine? Given his change in messaging from the guy that bypassed Congress to sell Israel munitions two months ago to someone that now doing the bare minimum of at least air dropping (nowhere near sufficient) food supplies to Gaza, the answer to that is seemingly a slight yes. Which has the benefit of aligning the presumptive Democratic Presidential nominee with the majority of voters, making him a stronger general candidate.
You know. The whole point of a primary. So, you’re welcome?
I’m increasingly confused by how many people seem to not understand that.
Me too, and I’m Canadian and don’t know much about US politics. Are there sources out there (e.g., US news, social media campaigns, messaging from actual Democrats) spreading the idea that an uncommitted vote in the primary means voting for trump in the election?
Gotta lie keep the support for israel high.
Remember Trump isn’t on the democratic ballot. You can’t vote against him until November. Your only choice in the primaries is to vote for Biden or vote that you are here for the other progressive and democratic choices down ballot but Biden has to earn that commitment by doing something against his own personal desire to be a Zionist and instead help starving children get food.
Uncommitted doesn’t mean I’m never going to vote for Biden. It just means he has to earn it through action.
Sure, but how many people are casting uncommitted or seeing how unpopular Biden is and are going to stay home in November because of it? My guess is not zero.
I get the protest and the timing, but it’s unclear if it’s really inoffensive in the general.
You don’t get the protest then!
If Biden fears this uncommitted vote movement then he will have to do something to stop it in its tracks.
Using his power to stop the weapons and money transfers to Israel and using the words Ceasefire Now would be a start. If he starts doing concrete actions to stop ten year old children wasting away and dying of starvation then the uncommitted vote movement would be over.
Then it sounds like Biden needs to take a firm anti-genocide stance to get those voters to actually vote, no? Do you think the number of Biden voters would decrease if Biden stopped the genocide?
I think the number of voters in general will decrease if Trump wins, considering he wants to get rid of elections entirely.
Do you disagree with the statement that Biden taking an anti-genocide stance, rather than his current pro-genocide with wrist slaps stance, would increase voter turnout?
An honest answer: It would likely increase the progressive voter turnout, but I am unsure about the net effect. I would certainly hope it increases total overall turnout, but unfortunately a large chunk of the voting populace–including a lot of reliable Democrat voters–are still very much pro-Israel.
That said, I would also like to confirm: Assume for the moment that Biden and Trump wins the nomination, and there is no change in the status quo between now and November (this is unlikely, given Biden’s recent shifts in policy signaling a possible change in trend, but I want to check against the worst case scenario). Would you still vote for Biden, or would you stay home? Would you staying home potentially affect the outcome (I.e. are you in a solid red/blue state like Alabama or California, or are you in a swing state like Michigan or Georgia)? What would need to change for you to vote for Biden in November?
I don’t know what you intended to post, but my phone wants to open it in WhatsApp
Then your phone is configured to open webp links as WhatsApp links, which is not the correct extension association.
It’s an animated image.
Oh I don’t doubt that the “uncommited” oppose Trump, too. The problem is the Genocide Joe rhetoric and other similar bullshit. You push that narrative and it may very well have lingering effects in Trump’s favor during the general election. Maybe in other elections it didnt matter quite as much, but this is Trump were talking about. Why do you and others like you not get that? Hello, knock, knock. Trump is fully embracing the Hitler playbook and aiming to be president of the Most Powerful Nation on Earth. And you want to bitch about Biden? At this moment…? SMH, it is your sort of fractious indiscipline and short-sightedness that allows fascism to gain power, laughing all the way at your stupidity and inability to mount a coherent defence of democracy. You think you have nothing to lose, but you do. Things can get much, much worse.
Exactly, some people will take this uncommitted thing all the way to the general election. Biden only won by a few hundred thousand votes in swing states. If you weaken enthusiasm in folks to come out for him, all it takes is a few hundred thousand to stay home and Trump will win. Not voting for Biden will elect Trump. You will be helping Trump. You will be electing Trump. And encouraging others to do the same just for fun in the primary is a dangerous game of chicken. You don’t play with loaded guns. Don’t play with the last election the United States may ever have.
Well, you’re implying that you might vote for someone other than Biden in the general, and the impact of that is that Trump will become president and the impact of that is Israel will have a free pass from US leadership to completely annihilate Gaza and kill with impunity. So, in terms of actually achieving the goal of stopping the killing of Palestinians, voting uncommitted is not going to work.
Additionally, and I think this is IMPORTANT, by promoting voting uncommitted and making it a purity test, some people will be influenced by that and ACTUALLY not vote for Biden and this will be the same thing as voting for Trump in that the result of Trump winning will be the same.
Yep. Voted no preference today and the most progressive candidates down ballot. My conscience is clear.
Yes lol. If you can’t run a candidate that isn’t whole heartedly in on genocide, then you shouldn’t expect votes from people who don’t like said genocide. The dems clearly don’t actually give a fuck about democracy, why not actually throw that antipopulism behind a candidate who actually appeals to people. “Still uncommited” haha GTFO. Yell at the people actually choosing the candidate, not the people who don’t want to vote for the meat puppet. I mean…Jesus fucking Christ.
Your purity test here makes you equivalent to a Trump supporter in that your actions of not supporting Biden will result in Trump winning the election.
As is clear from this article, Trump will “finish the job” in Gaza. You think it’s bad now? Wait until Israel is encouraged to completely seize Gaza and kill with even more impunity by Trump. So, your purity test for Biden will actually result in a worse outcome than you’re trying to achieve. You’re actually going to be causing a worse situation to unfold — one that is the opposite of what you want. You may say it’s justified because you needed to stand by your morals, but I don’t think that will matter to the Palestinians dying because you chose not to support Biden and by doing so, elected Trump.
I beg you to reconsider your position. Biden won by only a few hundred thousand votes in swing states. Your not supporting Biden and encouraging others not to as well could depress turn out and result in a very unfortunate situation. This may be the last election we ever have in America.
Purity test😂
You’d be better off yelling at the people who are pushing the worst possible candidate against Trump. Let’s pretend you convince me to vote, congrats you’ve convinced 1 person in the interwebs. Write to your reps…ramp up the pressure and forget about me. Biden’s losing with or without my vote, it’s a good bet. When that happens you can blame people that didn’t want to vote , or you can blame the party that’s shooting itself in the dick…over…and over again. I know who will get blamed, and I don’t give a fuck.
A lot of uncommitted voters are going to vote for Biden out of harm reduction. They might vote against AIPAC-endorsed candidates if they only have Democrats in their ballots. I know I would, but if there is a Republican, I’d have to vote for an AIPAC-endorsed democrat.
In the primary? Absolutely. It’s the only way I can demand more from Biden as a representative. These are voters who went out of their way to get up and vote for the democratic primary, just not for Biden. This is a huge way to put pressure on Biden and the DNC. These are committed voters protesting within the democratic party. This is the only way democratic voters can put pressure on Biden to change course.
The National is very different, we don’t have a choice but to vote for Biden or domestic fascism. I will of course vote for Biden and urge others to as well during the National election. Not a third party or Trump in the National, Biden is the only real option.
This is the reality of our shitty FPTP democracy.
Color me surprised that the facist sympathizes with other fascists committing a genocide.
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You’re wrong about the border. One of his main shticks is immigrates invading the country over the southern border. If they passed the border bill, and Biden shut down the border, he loses a huge talking point with his base and a huge fear of theirs that he can prey on.
He didn’t block it because Democrats were for it, he blocked it because he doesn’t actually care about protecting his base from any invasion, he cares only about himself.
You’ll see that he’ll keep talking about the border.
He didn’t block it because Democrats were for it, he blocked it because he doesn’t actually care about protecting his base from any invasion, he cares only about himself.
That’s a lot of words to say that trump tanked the border deal because the Democrats were ok with it.
No, it’s saying he tanked it because he wants to border to be open because he believe it helps him win.
Hell, the Democrats aren’t even “for it” it was just compromise…or really I think it was a political move to take that away from trump and get what they think is important (support for Ukraine).
Again, just watch, he’ll hammer on the border over and over again during the general election. At that point will you admit I’m right?
At that point will you admit I’m right?
Nix this part and you’re good, chief.
I tend to respond to obnoxiousness in kind. It’s certainly a weakness of mine.
I do the same, but I have been trying to build the habit of not doing it.
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No, I’m not saying that. Feel free to read my clarification again.
(Edit) Sorry thought this was in the same chain. No, I’m not saying that. I’m saying he wants the border open because he thinks it helps him win. he isn’t vocally against border security now, he’ll continue to hammer away at it because its red meat for his base. He’s against it getting closed because then he can’t hammer away at it.
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Except he’s going to continue to harp on border security. He isn’t taking the position because he just does the opposite of the Dems, he blocked it because it takes away a talking point. Now he can and will continue to talk about it. He didn’t even change his position.
He didn’t block it because Democrats were for it, he blocked it because he doesn’t actually care about protecting his base from any invasion, he cares only about himself.
It’s worse than that. Far right extremist politicians want the country to suffer. The worse it is, the better they are doing. So he’s not only not caring about people suffering but he wants them to suffer!
lmao the Dems have never NOT supported the genocide. Republicans just supported it more because Jesus and war. And racism.
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Shipping weapons used in genocide is supporting genocide and you know it.
EDIT: I can’t read apparently.
I agree, I said never not supported, which I realize is a bit confusing. Maybe the not should be all caps
Whoops. I misread that. My bad.
I’ve asked it before, but I wonder how Hitler would react to Israel. Probably be beaming with pride, like a master does when their apprentice surpasses them. I imagine when Netanyahu finally shuffles his way off this mortal coil, and his soul goes wherever Hitler’s is, Adolf will probably shake his hand.
Unless I’m getting wooshed on sarcasm… you realize Israel is full of the descendants of the Jewish people Hitler displaced, right?
In the magical world of Lemmy, it’s perfectly ok to compare Israel to Nazis. This place is like a bad trip sometimes.
Trump loving other countries doing “strong man” types of atrocities? Who would have thought!
Trump also repeatedly claimed that if he were president, there would be no war between Israel and Gaza. “It would have never happened if I was president,” he said of Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack against Israel, in which more than 1,100 Israeli and foreign nationals were killed. “They wouldn’t have done it to me, I guarantee you that. They did this because they have no respect for Biden and frankly they got soft,” he added.
uh huh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel_in_2017 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel_in_2018
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_airborne_arson_attacks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel_in_2019 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel_in_2020
They would never have done it if he was president. They only attacked because of biden.
In all honesty I think if Trump was president right now, not only would I have been shot about 2 years ago (lots of Trump assholes around me and I was pretty vocal on the town page when I was on FB back in 2020), we absolutely would have boots on the ground in Gaza.
“Captain! Captain they’re shooting at us!”
Yeah, plenty of likely Brownshirts around me, and they may get the drop, but I’m not harmless.
Thankfully we’ve had four more years to get more people armed. A lot of us are no longer unable to defend ourselves and our communities.
If trump was president right now, democrats would be at least more harshly condemning his actions in Gaza because it wouldn’t be politically expedient for them to downplay their complicity in genocide to maintain their current level of comfort and power. Gotta keep that machine running no matter what, I guess.
Ummm. They would be dead. They constructed gallows outside the capital on Jan 6th to hang Mike Pence. What makes you think any democrats would have survived to even see the Gaza war?
Oh man and Trump is only more pissed now since feeling like he didn’t get to be the biggest man, and get his easy win election.
If that wasn’t true before it definitely feels that way now.
I was thinking more so if Trump won the election rather than succeeded the insurrection, but I’ll give you that. Fascists are gonna fascist. I just don’t see any way to stop creeping fascism so long as people are downplaying atrocities for the sake of damage reduction. We’re going to end up with fascism regardless since we’re doing nothing to prevent it.
I’m not a Democrat, but I would be at war. If having a right to vote is the hill I die on so be it.
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He sure needs to “commit suicide” via 3 shots into the back of the head.
That might spark a civil war as his followers lash out, at the very least a wave of terrorism for the death of their messiah
Pretty sure they’ll cower behind their AR15s and talk loudly, and do nothing.
Me thinks it would be the fastest civil war in history.
My estimation of how this might go: Goods stop arriving in stores, diabetics can’t get insulin, critical infrastructure gets targeted first. Good luck maintaining internet connectivity. The masses would do more damage to themselves than either political opposition.
Would be fun to shrug it off like that but they are infested in the military, courts, police, and the Republican party
You can look at the history of white America getting away with murders of coloured folk to see why it is a scary prospect
Oh, I’m by no means shrugging it off. Thousands would die. I’m simply saying, it would end quickly and stupidly. We are too interdependent on our institutions to have an effective civil war.
It would also take a seperate opposing body to attack another. How would republican actors know who is ideologically to the left of them?
Unless they employ some type of guerilla warfare but, I don’t think there are enough people committed to trump to get that done effectively.
That might spark a civil war
Considering how Trump loves alienating the military it will probably be a very short one.
We’re near the cusp anyway, though not on the precipice. The worst thing though is knowing the Maga cult is likely to try and rise up if anything happens to Trump they don’t like, including not winning the Presidency. This is depressing because on the other hand I do NOT foresee the Left doing the same.
They should.
They won’t though.
Given his ties to Russia, I believe a fall from a hospital window would be more realistic.
Ohh, just how will our little “But Biden saporz Genocide”-crybabies now explain away their “both side is bad” bullshit?
Mocking a genocide of 35,000 humans for internet points… 🤦♂️
Using the G word for the situation = instant disqualification from any serious discussion.
Serious discussion about what, the genocide?
Sorry. This ethnic cleansing is clearly genocidal by now. They want the Palestinians in Gaza gone, and neighboring countries are not capable or willing to take them. That leaves death as the most likely fate for almost all Gazans. A million kids live there for fuck’s sake. It’s evil Nazi shit being done by the very fuckers who claim criticism of Israel is antisemitism.
They are Judeo-fascists, because no fucking group will ever be immune to fascism: Socialists, feminists, African Americans, trans people, every conceivable group of people for the rest of human history. There is no identity that cannot lead to fascism.
have to say you’re being pretty colourful with the lingo here, but at the same time that reveals you’re not a serious person.
Oh, got it. I can only use the term genocide after the genocide is fully completed. I guess it helps you virtue signal by saying “never again” without actually having to put in work when “again” comes around.
Last time I listened to the “boy who cried wolf” argument, I was proven wrong. We should have listened when Trump was called a fascist in 2016. It was unpopular to use that F word then, but what else can you call the Republicans now? It’s just what they are.
If you can’t use the word “wolf” until after it’s eaten all your sheep, you’re not a good Shepherd.
What a uniquely disturbing inability to have any awareness of context whatsoever!
Are you actually incapable of reading things as they’re written and just see words and react, or do you actually know what they’re saying and are just trolling? The issue they were very obviously addressing is that many people are acting as though Trump is somehow a better option because Biden supports Israel, so the question now becomes how will these people respond when they see that Trump (obviously) also supports what Israel is doing. I find it very difficult to believe that you don’t know that, but if you somehow don’t, how do you get around the world with such a limited capacity for extracting meaning the things people say?
Easy. I don’t deny that Biden is complicit in a Genocide in Gaza.
Complicit vs encouraging and doubling down on it. Biden is complicit in genocide, yet Trump will only make it worse and more guaranteed. He cheered on Hamas killing Israeli civilians and cheers on Israel killing Palestinian civilians. He just wants death.
Is it November already? Where did the year go?
You’re right, I must wait until the day before the election to speak up. My bad!
When are you gonna speak up about the current genocide?
Dumb
Just tired of the gaslighting.
The fact that people legitimately act like Trump is a better option for president than Biden because he hadn’t up until this point actively voiced support for Israel speaks volumes about how fucking doomed and politically ill-informed our country’s voter base is.
We did it comrades! We saved Palestine!
And people think Democrats will
vote onsupport Trump because Biden won’t denounce Israel…It’s at least in part Russian propaganda. They don’t want people to vote for Trump, they do want democratic voters to not vote at all, which will help Trump get elected.
Look at the people pushing the ‘genocide Joe’ thing. Invariably they’re anti-NATO and make excuses for Iran, Syria and Russia. Not that they’re doing it deliberately, but plenty seem to have bought the propaganda and are acting like useful idiots by spreading it.
Genocide Joe needs to be held accountable for sending weapons to a country engaged in genocide. That’s not propaganda, that’s international law.
And just for the sake of science: do you have an opinion on NATO?
It’s fine I guess, I’m not a Russian or Chinese shill lmao. I guess I was technically a social democrat, then I thought humanity would be okay in small tribal communes, but now I think humanity should go extinct in order to save the remaining animals we haven’t already driven to extinction. For sciences sake.
So you do realize that’s worse than Hitler right? Your “noble cause” requires humanity to be exterminated, Hitler just wanted a “perfect race” of humans. Even if it’s not by your hand or directed by you, you want the elimination of the entire human species.
There are some days where I’m in that camp too lol
Yeah I don’t think it should be an extermination, I know there are others like me called the voluntary extinction movement or something. I think intelligent people can see the writing on the wall that we’ve passed an important climate tipping point in 2023, I’m lucky I didn’t already have kids, but I’m getting a vasectomy.
Humanity has driven 70% of all species to extinction in the 250,000 years we’ve been around. 150 species a day. How many megafauna did we permanently erase before we even developed the written word? I think if we burn ourselves out before we spread to other planets or solar systems, said places are lucky.
That’s the easy way out. Please stick around and help the rest of us try to steer humanity in the right direction. Help the moral arc of the universe bend a little faster. It’s hard work, and most of us won’t see much of a return. But long-term, let’s hope that humanity can.
To clarify: I’m a biologist. The perspective you’ve taken is basically “Noble Savage” but for animals. Animals are pushed to extinction all the time. Yes, we’re incredibly good at it, and we’re good at coming up with highfalutin reasons for killing things, but look at chimps, ants, dolphins…nature is brutal. It sucks to be most animals. Say a habitat changes, and a species “needs” to move into an adjacent similar habitat that’s already occupied by one or more species exploiting those resources? Extinction of something is pretty likely. That’s all very much an oversimplification, of course, but this is a lemmy comment.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0111310 https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/when-it-comes-waging-war-ants-humans-have-lot-common-180972169/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombe_Chimpanzee_War
The hope I have is our intelligence. The fact that you recognize this existential threat is more than a badger is capable of.
Do you have an opinion on anything I said or just insinuations about my agenda?
Its at least in part Russian propaganda. They don’t want people to vote for Trump, they do want democratic voters to not vote at all
you’re making this up
none of your links support a claim that russia is using the conflict in israel to favor one candidate or another.
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What many of us imagine is that it’s bad when either nation does this.
Yes, it is hypocritical for most US politicians to criticize Russia’s interference in US elections, but it’s not incorrect.
It certainly isn’t wrongthink for those of us who have little influence on what alphabet agencies do to complain about it happening just because it’s happening elsewhere, too.
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That’s a non sequitur at best.
no one is threatening to vote for Trump because of biden’s genocidal proclivities. since nobody’s doing that, none of them can be Russian agents. you made this up.
Since reading is hard:
It’s at least in part Russian propaganda. They don’t want people to vote for Trump, they do want democratic voters to not vote at all, which will help Trump get elected.
Way to ignore the entire point of the person you responded to.
Way to ignore the entire point of the person you responded to.
i’m not ignoring it. i’m challenging it.
Sorry, I wasn’t aware that you were “challenging it” by ignoring the actual point and making up something else to respond to. My mistake, I’ll have to learn alternative definitions for words.
It’s at least in part Russian propaganda.
But you’ll use that as the excuse every time someone says they won’t be voting for Biden right?
The problem you run into with this excuse is regardless of where the ideas are coming from or who is amplifying them you and many others are clearly concerned about the upcoming election. Biden won the 2020 general election so that means you’re worried there are people who voted for Biden in the 2020 general election and won’t vote for him in 2024. If they’re leftists or progressives that means staying home, voting 3rd party or writing in.
So here’s a crazy idea: find a compromise. Leftists and progressives have raised multiple reasons they are frustrated or even angry at Biden. Why not yield to some of those objections? Frankly, the fact that discussions about giving progressive and leftist voters what they want in order to gain votes get so heavily down voted feels like the real PsyOP. Especially when the people downvoting simultaneously talk about the wonders of democracy and compromise. Here’s just a few ideas Biden could do today:
- Biden has been providing Israel weapons without congressional approval. That means he could stop. Today. Do that.
- Biden blocked the rail strike by forcing a contract unions had voted against down their throat. That contract expires at the end of this year meaning they could strike again in 2025. Biden could promise to veto any attempts to block a rail strike in his next term.
- Biden forced federal workers back to the office. He could reverse that.
- Biden could publicly shame Powell and Yellen for attacking American worker wages.
It’s hard to take people seriously when they talk about how important democracy is but sneer at the very idea of sacrificing any policy positions in order to court voters sitting to the left of Biden.
thank you
Without taking a position on what you’re saying, do you think it’s at all possible that making those choices could lose more voters than they’d gain? I honestly don’t know, but changing a position on any issue runs the risk of losing votes as well.
do you think it’s at all possible that making those choices could lose more voters than they’d gain?
Yes. You take a risk either way.
Anytime someone goes to name calling I assume they are a bad actor. We can have a serious discussion on the matter without devolving into name calling so I just assume they are trying to sew discord more than anything else.
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They will. By not voting for either.
I don’t believe that is something that anyone has ever said
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So he openly proposes the Endlösung? Wherever you are in the US, kick some grandpa’s ass (provided they helped rid Europe of Hitler) and stump their noses into this topic so they see what Trump is.
There are only about 325,000 WW2 veterans left alive in the US. They are not a significant voting block.
They may not be, but they have children and grandchildren they could teach the dangers of Nazis.
Throw in a “hey dad, why are you fighting for all of the the things grandpa fought against in the war?”
Exactly that.
They will never see what Trump is. Orange Hitler could break into their house in the middle of the night and rape their wife while beating their children while they look on in awe at the honor of being visited by Satan’s enforcer. It’s what cults do.
Man, I was worried for a second he would take the opposite stance.
I’m really torn on this one. On the one hand, Republicans ALWAYS take the exact opposite stance of Democrats so they can set up the argument as “Democrats bad” but on the other hand Trump is such a massive pile of shit that he would totally be for “bombing dark skinned people” just because.
It’s the final solution in maga speech
