Several service members told advocacy groups they felt like pawns in a political game and assignment was unnecessary
California national guards troops and marines deployed to Los Angeles to help restore order after days of protest against the Trump administration have told friends and family members they are deeply unhappy about the assignment and worry their only meaningful role will be as pawns in a political battle they do not want to join.
Three different advocacy organisations representing military families said they had heard from dozens of affected service members who expressed discomfort about being drawn into a domestic policing operation outside their normal field of operations. The groups said they have heard no countervailing opinions.
“The sentiment across the board right now is that deploying military force against our own communities isn’t the kind of national security we signed up for,” said Sarah Streyder of the Secure Families Initiative, which represents the interests of military spouses, children and veterans.
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Similar when they were doing border patrol in Texas.
Military training is kinda big on threat identification and assessment. You don’t have to like the military to appreciate some of the stuff you can learn from it.
Protesting is not a threat to America. It’s a threat to the people who are in charge.
That’s why it’s essential we keep it peaceful while we increase our numbers. If we are non-violent, we cannot be determined to be a domestic threat, and it’s the military’s duty to protect us.
If we are non-violent, TACO will just say “They’re violent!” and a majority of this country, including our military, will believe him. Things can only go downhill from here.
Arm yourselves.
And if we’re still non-violent, someone will join who isn’t and ensure some violence exists. It’s Plan 1A in the dictator playbook.
Yup, that too. There is no happy ending.
It’s not the military’s duty to protect protestors. Just as the police have no obligation to protect and serve citizens.
I wholeheartedly agree with regards to the cops and ICE.
But I actually completely disagree on that statement being applied to the NG and Marines.
I’d argue that the armed forced have a rather explicit duty to protect their own fellow citizens as best they can.
And if some dipshit commander orders the marines or CANG to actually open fire on US civilians, I really do think that the E4 mafia might have something to say about that, and that the commissioned officers and cops and ICE fascists might very quickly find themselves staring down the barrels of the deployed troops.
Put another way: if active duty troops are ordered to fire on unarmed protesters, I would not at all be shocked if the enlisted and noncoms refuse the orders and mutiny, up to and including fragging the officers who gave the orders if they keep pushing.
Orangeboi et al seem to think the troops are robots. They’re absolutely not.
I really hope you’re right
One way or another, I feel like we’re all gonna see the answer to that question before this bullshit settles down in any meaningful way
It’s not the military’s duty to protect protestors.
The path of enlistment starts like this:
I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same
Peaceful protest is our constitutional right.
The swearing-in of the President starts with something very similar, if not identical.
And yet, here we are.
Just because Trump isn’t performing his duty doesn’t mean that he doesn’t have a duty.
My point was that that also applies to the military. Just because they have a duty to uphold the Constitution doesn’t necessarily mean that they will perform that duty.
Police rules of engagement is shockingly 0, cops kill anyone for any reason if they perceive even the slightest chance of a threat to themselves. The military has a rigorous 5-6 steps for using increasing amounts of violence from shouting to actually firing.
Maybe they can identify the actual threat and neutralize him.
You means the person(s) funding all of this?
/s
It’s not. Unhappy people can lash out. You put a bunch of angry people on the riot control line, and they might start hitting people. It’s all downhill from there.
Low morale/dissatisfaction =/= anger. They’re more likely to be uncomfortable and unwilling to use violence against protesters, especially since they are significantly more trained to identify threats than police are. They know these protesters are not a threat, and all their training and rules of engagement tell them to not engage.
While I generally agree that dissatisfaction != anger, soldiers who are repeatedly given orders they know are bullshit and that they strongly disagree with typically tend to get pissed at the people issuing those orders.
“Man we don’t want to be here this is stupid, guess I’ll just fucking murder a bunch of people to feel better”
MobHerd mentalityYou’re making a lot of wild leaps from “I don’t feel good about being here and being used life this” to “I want to hit people!” even if they did, the people they want to hit are the ones who sent them there. And that’s also good.
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Well, they haven’t made a movie about how the Philly police got depressed after they bombed their own city yet.
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deploying military force against our own communities isn’t the kind of national security we signed up for
Then refuse those illegal orders and stand down.
As much as i hate what Trump is doing, I don’t expect any enlisted man to refuse orders to go somewhere. The legality of that order is debatable, but following it does not cause any immediate harm. It’s not a good risk to take.
Refusal to follow orders will come when the order is so clearly illegal that there can be no question, and when following that order is something that can’t be undone. An order to fire into the crowd, for example.
Of course, no such order will be given. I assume we have all seen Andor, yes?
I agree, I think there’s clear limits. This isn’t like Russia where they were being told they were being sent to a training exercise, this is an event where everyone being deployed knew exactly the reason and are able to be kept up to date by sources that don’t include their superiors. Being deployed doesn’t mean anything other than they’re getting a bigger paycheck each, and the legality of a domestic deployment for the purpose of crowd control is debatable. The real test of these men will be whether they take the life of a civilian.
There’s a lot of doomers who will base current events off of a TV show they watched, but there is no media in existence nor any historical event that mirrors these circumstances. There are non political guardrails, such as societal conventions, that will realistically play a much bigger role in the coming conflict than people think.
One thing is very clear however: The price of true change is blood.
The Great Orange Baboon’s (TGOB) parade is this Saturday. Lots of protests are going to happen on Saturday specifically because of this, and many other things. TGOB has repeatedly alluded to using armed forces against protesters on Saturday.
People are going to die on Saturday.
Try watching Winter on Fire on Netflix. It documents Ukraine overthrowing their dictator. It wasn’t a clean process. But hopefully the ending will be the same, with our dictator also fleeing back to Russia.
If you haven’t seen andor what are you doing with your life
Not living for TV.
What’s the takeaway from Andor in this context?There was a scene involving some vey angry, but peaceful protesters surrounding a government building. A small team of police was ordered into the crowd. Not to attack, just to patrol, to open a little corridor so people could pass. But that was six guys in riot gear pushing their way through the people.
Even in the best possible circumstances, that’s gonna cause a little trouble, and these were not the best possible circumstances. Fruit was thrown. Maybe a bottle or two. The police are tense. The people are tense.
And a government agent, working for the guy who ordered the cops out there, shot one of them. The cops reacted defensively, and struck at the crowd, trying to get to safety. The crowd fought back. Things quickly got out of hand.
And the stormtroopers were standing by, waiting for the word.
It was a setup. An incident was forced to happen. It might have happened even without the sniper. Just force the police into the crowd, and sooner or later, someone will do something stupid.
On the same way, the NG troops might be deliberately pressed into a position where they legitimately think they are defending themselves, but no single order will seem like “crossing the line” to them. Stand here. Hold the line. Push the crowd out of this area.
I hope it doesn’t happen. But the metaphor of boiling the frog is apt.
The Empire is fascist and comes for all including its loyal servants
That’s been the takeaway from Star Wars since A New Hope.
Some don’t like Star Wars or any Sci-fi. Others like fascism and hate things that say fascism is bad.
Not necessarily mutually exclusive. Always room for a little overlap in that Venn diagram.
Yeah one of my family members fits both
In what ways are you able and going to support troops who do that to then face court martial? Are you a lawyer willing to go pro bono? Are you willing to house the ones who are discharged, or later released from prison, with few to no job prospects? Do you already or are you planning to donate to service member advocacy groups?
If troops could feel sufficiently supported by the rest of the community when the military’s judicial hammer hangs above their head, it may help them gather the courage to do the thing you’re suggesting they do.
Most troops signed up to do a job with good benefits and gud-nuff pay and hopefully learn some skills, make lifelong friends, and maybe do some interesting or adventurous things in the process. Few of them are very financially well-set and “standing down” from orders they personally deem illegal could ruin their life. Big decision for 18-25 y/o’s to be making and glib comments like “just stand down” kind of gloss over the total psychology of the situation.
https://girightshotline.org/en/military-knowledge-base/conscientious-objection-discharge/
There are programs in place to provide help to troops considering Conscientious Objection. Every single law is up to personal interpretation, so I don’t know why you feel the need to emphasize it here. When I was asked to join the military during Bush II, I refused and am proud of that decision. Probably would have made my father proud. Probably would have gotten a lot of respect in my community. Probably would have helped pay for a college degree I wouldn’t actually get a job with. But fuck traveling half way across the planet to kill civilians to protect an oil company’s profits. If that was an easy decision for me at that age, not violating the rights your own countrymen should be even easier.
I never knew about this. I actually hope all our troops know about this also.
The ACLU seems like it should also cover this sort of thing.
It is I believe
I just checked their website. They need to add a Conscientious Objection section to make that more explicit.
Any military member who is court marshaled has a JAG representing them, just like there is a JAG prosecuting them. A system that gives you someone with far more time to deal with your case than a public defender, and even some private attorneys.
Like the movie A Few Good Men, Tom Cruise is a JAG
Do we need to have our commitment to them in writing in the presence of a lawyer in order for them to do the right thing and not follow illegal orders and threaten fellow Americans?
They took an oath.
That has nothing to do with our support.
That being said, the support of the public tends to be more consistent than the support of the leadership we find ourselves with in recent history. That’s made obvious by all the people getting help from others via GoFundMe type donations to cover their medical bills or simply for doing the right thing and being punished for it.
Do we need to have our commitment to them in writing in the presence of a lawyer in order for them to do the right thing and not follow illegal orders and threaten fellow Americans?
No idea how to get the point across effectively, but some general assurance of a soft landing on/from the side for which they’re putting their personal future at risk would probably be pretty helpful. The more ostracized and hated they feel in these early stages would probably just push them toward the other side, based on a rough risk-reward analysis.
If anyone is actually depending on those sworn/affirmed oaths to keep the troops on their side, then they’re living in a naive fantasy world. Those oaths are beautiful in their intent, but crumble pretty quickly in the harsh reality of viable livelihood and expected future compensation. Sorry, but I’m cynical and in my view loyalty is most easily purchased via material guarantees than ideology. Within limits, of course, and there’s different thresholds of tolerance toward unpalatable orders vs living conditions for everyone.
Yeah, a lot of people are all talk but actually chickens out when you tell them to practice what they preach or help in some way to the cause. I was arguing in an anarchist community why it is a bad idea to fire the first shot and kill soldiers and police, because it makes it look bad on the protestors and it will finally provide reason for the government to invoke the insurrection act. Unsurprisingly, anarchists know little of the practical reality and are too trigger happy baying for blood. When I dared one to go to California and shoot the authorities if they believe that Trump and co. broke the social contract, unsurprisingly he/she made up excuses and chickened out. Said going about on social media and targeting far right leaders is just as effective. Right, as if bullying Trump on social media will make him quit the White House lol.
It reminds me why i am not fully on board with anarchism despite having inherent and deep disdain on authority and hierarchy. Sorry my anarchist friends, but you are just as fantasists as any ideologues. I don’t completely condemn violence when it comes to it, but you don’t get the final sympathy when you break the promise of peaceful demonstrations and kill the authorities first. I mean, the world has sympathy on Syrian rebels, because Assad’s forces fired on peaceful demonstrators first. Many people actually soured on the French Revolution at the time, when The Terror started with indiscriminate executions of many individuals deemed enemies of the revolution. Conflicts are won on public relations as well.
A lot of people may or may not be the protesters in the streets, but don’t feel like incriminating themselves on a public forum for internet clout if they are. This isn’t the War Thunder forums.
One of leftist, especially for anarchists, core beliefs is praxis or putting into practice what you preach. I can see where you are coming from, but the interlocutor was literally calling for violence and for himself to raise an army. But when I told him why won’t he do what he says, he basically backed out. That’s not praxis lol.
Well said
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Or deploy on orders, then stand with the protestors against ICE
Right?
This isn’t complicated. You either choose to obey an illegal order and threaten/attack other American citizens, or you don’t.
Clearly they have generally chosen, so far, to break the law and betray their fellow Americans.
This isn’t complicated. You either choose to obey an illegal order and threaten/attack other American citizens, or you don’t.
Would you be willing to risk ten years in prison that a military judge will agree that an order to go stand somewhere is illegal?
Or to put it another way, do you expect our enlisted men and women to uphold the high moral virtues of honor, self sacrifice, and protection of innocents?
After seeing what horrors American soldiers are capable of, I’m not holding my breath.
Again, it’s one thing to expect them to reject orders they know are illegal, such as firing on civilians. It’s another thing entirely to expect them to reject orders the legality of which may be a supreme court case next week.
It seems we are in agreement then, the troops are self-interested rational actors; all of the supposed virtues are propaganda.
But I think there is a moral imperative that says “do not obey immoral orders”, and that imperative does not come with a clause that says “unless there is a pending court case”.
But I think there is a moral imperative that says “do not obey immoral orders”
Is it immoral to get on a plane, and go sleep on the floor somewhere?
No, plane rides and sleepy time are not immoral in my opinion :)
There’s probably a good argument about plane emissions and climate change tho
Curious to know what horrors you’ve seen?
There was the whole thing in Guantanamo Bay. And the awful treatment of civilians in Afghanistan. And in Iraq. And we can’t forget the Vietnam war.
I think the guy you’re talking to is a duck, but he’s not all wrong.
Yeah, those are good examples. I wasn’t trying to challenge him, but was genuinely curious to know if he’d personally seen shit.
There’s far too many to name, but the first things that come to mind are Collateral Murder, Haditha Massacre, and literally anytime the US military has been involved in the Gazan genocide of the past year.
In theory, the next administration would pardon them. In theory.
It’s a nice idea but the military makes it really hard to do that.
Think for themselves? That’s not what they signed up for!
A lot of revolutions begun by the rank&file turning against the hated police, just sayin’.
Imagine how the chickenshit ICE will act if the soldiers start opposing them too. Not so easy to bully someone armed and their friends.
Absolutely, and it’s not just vibes, it’s the oath. They swore to defend the Constitution against enemies foreign and domestic. If we are non-violent, we are not a domestic threat. As per The Constitution, the soverign (highest rank in the nation) of the United States are We The People.
We all can be armed, friend.
I want this on a t-shirt.
Children of Kali when?
I am and I have some for my currently unarmed friends if’n they ever need it.
Their orders are illegal, thus disobeying them is not insubordination or illegal.
Not just not subordination following them is specifically illegal and historically “I was following orders” has NEVER been justification or gotten anyone off their charges. You follow illegal orders YOU are a criminal as much as your commanding officer.
Unfortunately for the most part with only a few exceptions “I was following orders” has in fact, always worked to get people off scott free for war crimes except in cases where they were committed by a nation that lost the war.
These orders will be made legal as judges have no more basis in us of a
If that were true, why do they keep getting their asses handed to them in court, and why do they keep complying with those rulings?
They should be troubled. They are breaking their oath on the constitution.
On the other hand, they could easily turn and end tyranny before it really sets in.
In just hoping that ICE is dumb enough to try to arrest and deport one of the Marines in front of their co-workers just like they do with civilians.
Please let this happen everywhere at once. This is the kind of thing we need to get the rank and file in there to stand up to the enemy within. ICE shouldn’t be smart enough to wait for their contracts to end and they can do it quietly away from their comrades in arms.
We have a Traitor in the White House that is using the military like his personal toy. It is sickening.
Don’t forget 77 million traitors voted for Trump and his mass deportation campaign.
Trump wouldn’t be where he is if people didn’t vote for him. I mean, sure Elon helped, but people did still have to go vote.
This is important to remember. His supporters are ALL traitors. This isn’t 2016. They weren’t bamboozled. They have voted for him THREE TIMES. They are traitors to our nation and everything it’s supposed to stand for.
Do not trust them. Do not hire them. Do not help them. In any way.
Yes they did. Truly sickening.
Remember that kid who didn’t respect his toys, and always busted them up by driving them down the stairs, and smashing them into each other? He didn’t care because he knew his parents would just buy him more. Then he’d come to your house, and you had to tell him that certain toys were off limits because you knew he’d destroy them?
That’s HitlerPig and the military. It’s just another toy he can abuse until it breaks.
History will absolutely consider Donald Trump an American traitor. A LOT of people just can’t see that from within the situation. They’ll only be able to see it in hindsight, if at all. It’s really sad.
If you lie about an election, you are a traitor.
If you send a mob to stop the certification of an election, you are a traitor.
If you bend the knee to authoritarian leaders, you are a traitor.
If you irreparably damage our alliances by threatening our allies, you are a traitor.
If you steal classified documents and then refuse to give them back, you are a traitor.
If you send the military to threaten/assault American citizens, you are a traitor.
If you spend every day in, and out, of office dividing Americans, you are a traitor.
Treason doth never prosper; what’s the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason.- John Harrington
good start, recognizing that you ARE pawns. Always were. Next step: being strong enough to quit and deal with the court martial.
being strong enough to
quitrefuse unlawful orders and use your own common sense and basic decency to resolve conflicts in the field and deal with the court martial.if they had decency and basic sense they would not have volunteered in the first place. The trick now is to grow what little incipient hatred they have into a consciousness and recognition that they are being abused because of their class.
edit: the initial reply was harsh - those who need help after getting sucked in are the decent ones - they are “waking up.” I may hate the military and the dicks who keep supporting it, but do want compassion for the ones who realized they were tricked into joining as children and need to get the heck out.
Military recruitment is actually really insidious. They actively target low income areas with the promise of paying for college. They find people who they can convince, maybe rightly so, that they have no other option if they want to leave their impoverished life. People who live in a place where there are no jobs. Kids who are living in houses that struggle to put food on the table.
Whether it’s right or wrong. A lot of those soldiers may genuinely feel like they had no other choice but to sign up.
A lot of these soldiers are going to be late teens and early 20s. Essentially kids.
For sure! Help those simple minded kids get out when they get the slightest smell of “this ain’t right.”
Remind them all that THIS is not worth a lifetime of regret even if it does mean you can preboard your delta flight back to FL to see your grandkids.
Send them to https://girightshotline.org/
But don’t say they don’t have decency because the ‘volunteered.’ The military is exploiting them too.
I suppose that was indeed a little harsh and reactionary of me. They are, indeed, working class people. I may not respect their choice, or the system that exploits them, and the ones that “push back” can go fuck themselves.
But you are right. Compassion for those “waking up” is important!
Thanks for the link!
Military recruitment is actually really insidious. They actively target low income areas
There is a reason the military (in multiple countries) has been called the “employer of last resort”.
They’re always recruiting, and will take almost anyone who can’t find any other job.
Goddamn, you really hate the military, huh?
I think it is, in the modern era, completely used to bolster corporate profits, destroy lives, spread violent hegemony and exploit the working class all over. So. Yeah.
Our US nation is not the “world police” and the members who wish to leave need help and support in getting out. While they acknowledge they were actually and really brainwashed through professional propagandist workflows.
The ones that rock Punisher logos and “Terrorist hunting permits” and “Don’t tread on me” flags on their F250s need to be ignored at all points in the day. They are already too far gone.
Next step: being strong enough to quit and deal with the court martial.
Or mutiny, that’s always nice in a revolution.
I hope they live with this shame forever
You hope for immortal troops to occupy us cities? I guess you like a challenge.
You’ve tried surviving in the US on “Hard” mode, now try the new “Nightmare” difficulty!
Monkey’s paw: troops are immortal.
Would actually suck for them too. Reminds me of the line in 300: “May you live forever.” It is most certainly not a blessing.
And in interesting times no less!
They could believe ypu carry shame into an afterlife should they believe in one.
Ehh seems like a stretch, have to assume too many things.
I hope the ones that don’t feel shame from this, soon feel deep shame, and the ones that feel shame from this act in ways that no longer cause shame.
This should be a wakeup call for service members everywhere to plan their exit now before they end up deployed against the homeland too.
Or you can stay in the service and be a sabot in the wheels. Being a shitty soldier will do more to hurt the fascist service than leaving it. Trust me, i was a shitty soldier.
Also being a mole and letting resistance groups know what’s going on
Well that would be treason which i’m not advocating for.
Just being slow and fat fingering things are not traitorous things.
Treason is punishable by the death penalty so keep that in mind. Especially with who is in charge currently.
You seem to be confused. Obeying the fascist illegal orders is the treasonous act.
I’m not confused. A soldier has to walk a fine line on what they can legally do. I won’t advocate for soldiers to do illegal things. I will advocate for soldiers to disobey illegal orders and to be a shitbag for any work details they think are undemocratic. Until we’re in a full blown civil war it’s better to lie low than get kicked out of the service from spying.
If you ignore how laws are written and how the world works then yeah you’d be correct.
In the real world teft is correct
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Uhhh obeying the orders of a fascist traitor is treason…so no them rising up and fighting against such shit orders is not treason but their oath to the constitution and its people.
They haven’t been given illegal orders yet. And i’ve already said that they should disobey illegal orders. All soldiers are given classes on lawful orders and which orders should and shouldn’t be obeyed. If they “rise up” as you say they will just be courtmartialed and discharged at best or executed at worst.
This is the real world not some fantasy that some of you seem to be living in. I was a soldier and i was deployed to a war i didn’t agree with. I understand what these soldiers are feeling.
I was in the military myself 2009-2013
This is an illegal order you fucking piece of shit traitor. We swear an oath to the constitution.
TRUMP is a seditionous traitor so anything he says or does is an illegal order. The military should have had the balls to nut up and say no and arrest his ass as he is a domestic terrorist.
But go on keep defending the Marines on AMERICAN soil.
You are a traitor and when war breaks out I hope you meet your maker.
Being ordered to an area isn’t illegal. Being ordered to shoot civilians is. Learn the distinction, clown. I’m not a traitor nor do i support the orange idiot.
It’s only treason if you get caught.
I get it but if things start going down the Civil War route than anything is fair game.
Also there is no leaving the military, it is illegal by the very definition and you will go to military prison
Not in the US, we don’t have compulsory service, and people leave legally all the time. Letting their enlistment expire is a way to leave, they could also get discharged for medical reasons, though maybe that’s not something to plan on. There are others, but I’m not sure how advisable any of them are.
Every military and law enforcement member needs to understand right now that attacking protesters for exercising their First Amendment rights is crossing a line that they can never come back from. I, for one, will always hold it against any MAGA for the rest of my life. They deserve to be mercilessly shunned, ridiculed, and discriminated against for the rest of their miserable, stupid, treasonous lives. I own a business, and I will never hire a MAGA supporter, ever.
What is the strat for MAGA customers?
MAGA customers are a double edged sword. You can sell them on practically anything as long as it “owns the libs”, but they often don’t have much money.
I’ll take their money. I won’t cut them any breaks though.
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You got the choice to stand up and say no. No I will not use my weapons on my own fucking people because some geriatric PoS is having a terrible twos tantrum because everyone hates his ass.
Do what’s right or be remembered as the ones who did wrong.
They should be troubled.
How about invading a country halfway around the world that didn’t do anything to us?
That should be a great morale booster, historically.
The main difference there is that they can be unfamiliar with that country and believe what they are told about it.
Hard to be unfamiliar with the country you grew up in, and only 30% of the population is willing to believe what they are being told about it now despite their life experiences not showing that to be the case. I mean since when have those types of people been “scared” of Californians?
Hard to be unfamiliar with the country you grew up in
If anyone can do it, it’s Americans. I’ve had arguments with Americans who insist that New Mexico is in Mexico despite it being called New Mexico.
I think the primary difference here is they know the population they’re oppressing so it’s difficult to wholly believe the propaganda.
When being imperialists abroad, they’re fed a steady stream of propaganda about how they’re the hero, that they’re saving democracy, babies, capitalism, and what not. Most of them don’t speak the language and have difficulty relating to the local population. Americans are notoriously ignorant of everything outside the US (fine, in the US too) and the locals they’re defrauding are understandably afraid and/or hostile, so many don’t learn otherwise or don’t want to accept otherwise. Imagine the blow to the psyche of switching gears from “great American saviour” to “brown kid murder machine to make rich people richer”. That’s tough.
Now the lies are much harder to believe. They speak the language, share the culture, and some are at least vaguely familiar with the events leading up to these protests. While 1/3 of the US population are utter numpties, the remaining 2/3 are at least likely redeemable and some of that larger fraction is likely present in the military. They know what they’re doing is wrong and don’t believe the propaganda telling them otherwise.
Now we’ll see if any have the courage to stand against this. I’m not holding my breath.
This is part of why Russian troops faced and still face severe morale dips in Ukraine, because Ukrainians can speak directly to them and ask them what they are doing and why they are killing them.
Judging by the suicide rates, that wasn’t either.
Oh, do I have news for you: https://apnews.com/live/israel-iran-attack
Well, Israel has the right to defend itself and have a foreign policy. Not like some other countries that are just bad bad bad.