I assume years of collectively crying about it online has made something as simple and natural like dating seem like this unachievable task.
Not sure if it’s just me, but I feel like young people are less capable than ever to socialise. I thought I was a social pariah, but I don’t have shit on some people out there.
I was a complete social reject in middle and high school so I don’t even know how to people but I just assumed that was just me and my miserable circumstances apparently a lot of people have the same problem?
Same, I struggle with people. I think it’s just that our kind of people are more active online.
There’s no third places where you can just loiter.
From what I’ve seen/heard, it’s not specifically the ‘crying.’ It’s a general effect from online life. Online activities are much, much easier than in person. Want to feel a connection to someone? Here’s vloggers, talking straight at you in painfully earnest tones about everything in their life. Want someone to entertain you? Here’s half a dozen companies fighting to be the one you turn to. Hungry? Forget cooking. Here’s delivery options from everywhere. Horny? Porn! It’s all a click away and you don’t even need to put on pants. If getting a need met enough to get you to tomorrow takes no effort, many people aren’t going to put in the work to get, not even a guarantee, but only a chance at something better.
Well when men keep hearing “don’t approach us”, we shouldn’t be shocked when men don’t approach people.
Step 1- be attractive.
- Step 1. Be courteous
- Step 2. Interact with people in general
- Step 3. Ask our the people you’re genuinely interested in, and feel you have some kind of connection with, respectfully, knowing rejection is okay
Repeat until you get a date.
Being attractive helps a lot. Obviously. But you can put effort into your appearance. More than anything your personality is the thing that will get you a date.
Having tried Tinder 12 years ago, once, around the time I became an adult, why you’d choose it over asking people out in real life is beyond me. Especially if you’re not very attractive.
The meta is all off haha
Step 2 - don’t be unattractive.
I’m at 0/2 so far are there any more steps?
Get a dog or cat or both.
Step 3 - Repeat Step 1.
Be rich
Just be funny and not a piece of shit. My wife is so gorgeous, people immediately know I have a good sense of humor and I’m supportive. I’m certainly not rich.
Granted, this is not a good approach for the apps. You need to be able to sell yourself in person. Best dating strategy in this case is making many friends, and some of them will be charmed into attraction. If I were dating, speed dating would probably be workable for this approach.
If there is one thing the internet has overwhelmingly seceded at it’s convincing people that looks are absolutely everything. A lot of people I know tend to take their dating app experience as solid evidence of their romantic inaptitude. Even when it’s all too well known they are scams designed to keep you on their platform for as long as possible.
I know that preaching about stepping up to women may feel like the same way as saying: “Just be attractive, bro.” And if it does, to that I say: Do it and practise it for the sake of it. “That looks like a nice person, let’s find out what they’re about, for no damn reason at all.”
Anyway, my two cents. And if it helps whenever you’re scared of striking up a conversation just keep in mind: “The alternative is dating apps.”
Cry me a river. I’ve never heard a women say “don’t approach me”, but I’ve heard many say “don’t be a douche” and “stop thinking you’re a fucking victim”.
You already forgot the bear in the woods?
The fact that yall are still this mad about this just proves that the entire point behind the thought experiment is right.
The bear metaphor was obviously thinly veiled racism/xenophobia from the start. Lots of conservative/moderate women who are terrified of anyone who isn’t white or who is “illegal”
That’s like 10 whole new levels of not getting it
The goal was to increase fear of the “other” - which is a classic right wing tactic.
The bear meme was a conservative astroturfed campaign to push people right - which is why it appeared shortly before the 2024 US elections
That’s…just no. Wtf? No.
Source: I’ve actually listened to women, in person, describe their reasoning, instead of making up my own justification for something like the incel community decided to do.
The goal was to increase fear of the “other” - which is a classic right wing tactic.
The bear meme was a conservative astroturfed campaign to push people right - which is why it appeared shortly before the 2024 US elections
This is very tinfoil hatty
IDK women are not scared of me. Maybe the problem is you? Maybe you’re not the victim you think you are and you’re just an ass?
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Apparently you already forgot their reasoning behind it. A bear is a known quantity. Humans can lie to gain your trust, then turn on you. They weren’t saying all men are bad, they were saying that meeting a stand man alone in the woods - you have no idea how this person will act.
At the same time, lots of men are really shitty when they “approach” women.
“Don’t approach us” is a response to men’s behaviour, not the other way around.
I keep saying this cause it’s a take a lot of people gloss over. I haven’t dated in a while because I’m too broke to add anything else to my budget, dive bars included. Dating takes time and money, and if I get more of either, I’m using it to better my situation before thinking about dating.
In a time where real wealth is dwindling for most young men, I can imagine I’m not alone on this.
Going through the same problem, I was in uni during COVID, when it hit many things in my life changed or left so I shut down and unfortunately couldn’t complete my degree in the end. Now I’m just job hunting and rebuilding and while I do feel pretty lonely at times, I realise I can’t even consider talking to a girl romantically until I can rebuild myself (my own choice). Luckily I have this close female friend who i can talk to makes me feel a little less alone
Life advice from an old’ish dude: find a girl when you are broke. She will always love you, not the money. She will also love you in hardship and she won’t care if you go for a walk or watch Netflix because it’s cheaper. :)
Men don’t want to be branded ‘creepy’ and women have constantly stated they want to be left alone. Men listened.
Now now. Don’t blame women.
Every time I see an article like this I think who fucking cares? Like what’s going on with men? Its a generational and cultural thing its not men’s fault. Dating sucks, people get rejected in ultra harsh ways, sometimes being filmed and then posted on social media for trying to ask someone out. If I was in the age range to be dating I wouldn’t bother.
It’s a problem to have so many single, disaffected men out there
Might be a good time to downplay the importance of a relationship for a happy life then instead of trying to push the message that your life sucks if you don’t have one.
Maybe being alone works for some people, but the desire for intimate relationships is a biological drive in human beings
My point was that making people feel worse about their situation likely won’t improve the outcome. People either would be happy without a partner or they won’t and those who won’t don’t need an external push to try to find a partner and both groups might feel worse if they are publicly branded a failure for not having a partner.
Yup and it’s a problem that only becomes worse over time
how do you know they are disaffected. Maybe they are single and just fine with it.
“Influence” numbers of Andrew Tate & Musk says otherwise. I’m also assuming a large following of those two are unhappy single men.
The first rule of…
Dude, you’re not supposed to talk about Fight Club.
Talk about what now?
Women might care?
Then they get to step up and approach men for a change.
well then they should step up and start asking people out instead of waiting for guys to do it.
people get rejected in ultra harsh ways, sometimes being filmed and then posted on social media for trying to ask someone out.
Are you sure this isn’t exaggerating it a little? This may be anecdotal but I have never dealt with any such harsh rejection within my social circles (neither have my associates). What I’m trying to get at is that there may be a vocal minority that gets a lot of online attention.
Then again if thousands upon thousands of people see such a post (like on say r/Tinder) and take it as a common phenomenon it would still have the same effect.
Really the fear of it happening is enough. All you have to do is have it happen once, or know someone that it happened to, or see a video of it for that to scare you off of even trying.
That sounds like an irrational fear if you ask me. Like with fear of flying.
It’s a complicated issue with a lot of layers. Like a depressing onion.
Men were told to stop approaching women for any reason in any situation. So we did.
Dating apps and websites have overinflated women’s egos and absolutely obliterated most mens egos. The average looking guy with a job and some normal hobbies is going to get very few matches where as most women get hundreds a day regardless of their level of employment or having hobbies. This leads to women believing they can find the millionaire bachelor if they just hold out for longer when in reality they are not the women that the millionaire bachelor is going to pick.
Most women still expect men to be chivalrous and pay on the first date, but they have no actual intention of pursuing a relationship with that guy. Unfortunately some women have learned they can get a free meal and entertainment for an evening at no cost if they just say yes to dates they have no interest in. Most guys have been burned by that as some point.
A lot of women are still playing games. Saying no because they want the man to “chase” them or “fight” for them. Most guys have stopped entertaining that behavior whatsoever but I still see so many women doing it. As men we can’t tell if that’s what you want or if you actually mean it when you say no so the majority of us will immediately stop pursuing you if you decline us. I’m 33 and women are STILL doing this. I thought it would taper off as I got farther from high school aged girls but from my experience it has not gone down in any significant way.
There are a million other reasons and nuanced details but I am tired of typing.
Myself and most men I know around my age who all did very well in the dating scene when we were younger have just completely given up on dating now. We have zero interest in putting in the time, energy and money into something that yeilds nothing in return these days.
Like most things I think this will reach a breaking point and things will shift but I’m not sure when that will be or what will push things over the edge.
My aunt admitted she did the free meal thing back in the 70s. It’s not new. This whole thing is bs. People just have whiny echo chambers now.
I’m gay but I’ve only ever been on dates where both of us paid for our own meals. I think hetero dating is just broken and they should start over
Splitting the bill on the first date is possible with the right women, but for a lot of women the second you mention it they get offended and/or ghost you. I would say ~30% are open to splitting the bill for the first date and the rest find it to be a huge turn off or they will legitimately get mad.
I have had women call me broke and tell me to delete their number when I suggest we split the first date bill before hand. I mean it weeds out the bad ones early but it still sucks.
Honestly though, it’s a good way to weed out that 70% with antiquated conceptions is gender norms which will probably cause problems later in the relationship anyway. If they get that offended over splitting the check in a first date, they’re probably gonna hold you to unworkable heteronormative expectations later, too.
Okay, but if it’s that big of a deal to you, wouldn’t you be happy to know you’re incompatible with that person right away over such a simple topic?
Yeah but typically that conversation comes after days of texting/calling to get to know them somewhat. It’s not like I’m gonna match with someone and immediately ask them if they are comfortable splitting the bill on the first date. Maybe I should just ask that right out of the gate to avoid wasting time. Idk.
It’s the constant lost progress that wears you down. You’re carrying the conversation and keeping it fun while half the women are dry and give short answers to everything because they are messaging back the 20 other guys who all matched with them that day. So you put in the effort to try and stand out only to find out the night before a date or when a date is first brought up that they aren’t compatible. It’s just draining on you after enough times.
Your lack of success dating probably has something to do with you saying shit like this
Found another woman.
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Before I met my wife I went on paid for the bunch of people. Good percent of them wanted to pay their share. You can also discuss it prior to actually going on the date and then you don’t get surprised. Just basic communication
I never said it was a new shitty behavior from women. It’s just that more men are aware of it now. Especially since a lot of women will post about it online and while they do get to share it with their yaaas queen slay fan base men do also see those posts. They see those comments where women are bragging about how many dates they have gone on with zero intention of actually romantically engaging with the man at any point.
And to be clear I am not sitting here thinking this is a one way street. I am fully aware that men have a long history of going on dates just to get laid and then never talking to that woman again.
Both genders got shit they need to work on just like most people got shit they need to work on.
I think you’re still just seeing the noisy few and those people are not the norm. The most vocal people are not necessarily the majority. I think most people on both sides or all sides are just looking for someone they’re compatible with
So either myself and all other other single men I talk to about this all have terrible luck or there is some sort of shift that’s happened in the last ~10 years and it’s finally getting so bad that others are picking up on it.
I was in a relationship or dating in one form or another from the age of like 14 until I was ~27. Only in the last 6-7 years did it get really bad.
I think it’s a combination of a lot of things but ultimately it’s become a numbers game and most guys just don’t want to put up with the bullshit anymore. Especially in this economy many dudes are just checking out. Not only from dating but basically everything.
Same here. Most women bring nothing to the table, so there’s no rush. I’d rather save the money and spend my time studying or playing video games
If you don’t like women, then date men. You are telling us you can’t connect to women, then you aren’t attracted to them. If you were you would connect emotionally with them. You’re probably just straight because you were told to be for so long and you made it an identity. Open your mind and think about those male friends you had you made excuses to wrestle with a little bit more just so you could feel his touch. Just give in to what you know to be true.
This is stupid and you should feel bad.
Listen if I was gay I would date a man so quickly. Unfortunately I just do not find men sexually attractive. Trust me.
If you were you would connect emotionally with them.
wanting that emotional connection doesn’t mean the BS can get too much to put up with, but the emotional connection seeking condition on gender can be absolute, even if a any gender can provide you with orgasms.
I do like women and I do maintain platonic relationships with women
I definitely wouldn’t say they bring nothing to the table. It’s just that they expect you to bring a lot to the table and often times they bring little to the table. If they also didn’t expect you to bring much then it wouldn’t be so bad, but they expect it all while doing little to nothing in return.
What stinks like shit? Oh it’s your personality.
Interesting response. I take it you must be one of those women I was referring to in part of my comment somewhere.
I take it you must be one of those women
This just icks me out. Do you believe men can’t be out off by what you said? (Not that I agree or disagree with what you said.) It just feels nasty to assume the dissent is from women specifically.
He just implied they were one of the people being complained about, so they got mad and left a mean comment. you’re reading into it too much imo.
Like the other comment said you’re reading into it a bit much.
And I would feel fairly confident that the commenter was a woman because attacking someones personality (that they don’t know at all) is typically done by women. If they don’t like something you said they tend to tell you that you have a crap personality or a tiny dick.
So I am open to being wrong about that commenter, but I would feel comfortable putting a gentlemans bet of 1 dollar that it was left by a woman.
attacking someones personality (that they don’t know at all) is typically done by women.
Miss me with this misogynistic bull shit.
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Says an asshat
Summary: hoe_math
Right?
His videos are hilarious. Mostly accurate too.
One of my friends straight up used a guy to help her move and ditched him immediately after. It’s honestly so fucked up what otherwise very nice women think is totally fine to do. She bragged about doing this and my other friends cheered her on for it. I couldn’t even imagine being the guy in that situation, just getting treated like an exploitable slave?
This is unfortunately a very common thing that women pull. I have a lot of “handy” skills and I have had multiple women pretend to be interested in the hopes that I would fix something in their apartment for them.
I cannot fathom pretending to be interested in someone just to use them like that. It’s really quiet dehumanizing and then for so many people to cheer that behavior on is disgusting. Not really a mystery people aren’t lining up to go on dates these days.
You’re complaints sound like they were copy and pasted from an Andrew Tate manuscript. Most men I know who are healthy and well adjusted have a girlfriend or wife. I dont think ive dated a woman in the last 5 years who expected me to be chivalrous or wanted to “play games” with me and make me chase. My friends and I have been having amazing luck with dating recently I guess. 8 out of 9 of us are either married or in a long term relationship. And were not rich or extremely attractive lmfao. Maybe it’s because none of us are incels and don’t just wanna fuck the first thing with 2 legs to say yes. I feel like men like you can’t see anything a woman is past the vagina, like maybe if you tried to just be friendly instead of horny they would’ve opened up to you and trusted you. Instead most men act like women owe them something when they buy them a gift or a meal. My friends have paid for my food before and I didn’t get on the ground and suck them off, why should a girl be expected to do that.
First of all: *Your
Secondly: Yikes bro. You made a LOT of assumptions and pretty much all of them were wrong.
I don’t really give a shit about sex. At least that’s not my goal when dating. I am looking for someone that is kind, thoughtful and curious. Someone who is intellectually stimulating and emotionally mature.
I could call up pretty much any of my exes and get sex if that’s all I was after. I am just looking for genuine human connection.
When my choices are expend time, energy and money just to be taken advantage of/toyed with or sit at home and be at peace with myself I’m gonna take the peace every time now.
If you went fishing for years and never caught anything except toxic sludge at some point you just stop fishing. Spend that time and energy on something else. That’s where most men are at these days. And yeah some of those guys are just unrealistic assholes, but most of them really aren’t.
Personally I am just living my life. If I happen to bump into someone and hit it off I won’t fight it, but I’m not going to actively spend my time, money and energy looking anymore.
Let me start by saying I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with the post you’re replying to.
8 out of 9 of us are either married or in a long term relationship.
How long? Because many of the points being made by the comments in this thread are talking about how things changed in the past few years. If you got together pre pandemic you wouldn’t have been dating in the environment many are talking about. Even if you got together in like 2021 you may not have experienced it at it’s worst (according to them).
Disclaimer: I am married and haven’t ever experienced the “dating scene” because I’m with my high school sweetheart. But you need to understand a lot of what the posts in this thread are talking about they’re claiming is very recent.
That said, this post (the image) is 100% incel propaganda, accidental if I’m being generous.
Honestly, I get it’s a green text, but this is pretty easily explained. First off: dating is fucking expensive, and unfortunately standard gender roles means the dude foots the bill most of the time. Yes times are changing, but that’s still pretty standard. Pair that with the fact that dudes usually have to make the first move (again, old gender standards) and the fact that social media adds another layer of risk of being ridiculed or making someone viral because they were ‘crimge’ or ‘gave the girl the ick’ and it’s a pretty stacked deck. Hell, point one is such a strong weigh in that it’s enough to explain all of it. People are more broke than ever, and if dating by default involves going out, well guess that date isn’t going to happen.
I recently ended a 6 year relationship. I’m not going to settle down with anyone again unless they have their own stuff going on like a career and goals. I think a lot of women expect men to manage all the finances, set goals, plan vacations and provide stability but they don’t want to do the traditional gender role stuff like cooking and cleaning or making a home. So what’s the point? Why make someone else’s life easier if they don’t do the same for you? had a son young(I was 19 when I had him) and he’s 11 now, so it’s not like I’m dreaming of starting a family. Most women bring nothing to the table. And if you’re lucky enough like me to have a good income, house, car, etc… you realize a lot of things are easier living alone.
Women want the princess treatment but don’t know how to act like a princess. Beyond that, sex isn’t all it’s hyped up to be. I know I sound like a redpill incel but dating shouldn’t be a priority for anyone. What’s the rush? Don’t fall for the first thing you see, make sure they’re worth it first.
If you decide to date again, you should consider dating liberal women. The only women I have known who are like you describe are conservative(and I have met one or two who expect the princess treatment and then don’t deliver on the prince treatment!). I know conservative men who expect traditional roles, and I know conservative men who expect to split the bills and say they’ll split the housework but then the woman ends up doing all the housework anyway. The women in that situation end up feeling like you: if I’m doing the housework AND working, this is easier on my own!
In my liberal circles things seem to be a bit more evenly split, and both partners are often more independent.
It seems like you’re happy on your own though, so you’re doing the right thing by removing yourself from the dating pool! Maybe you’ll find someone independent who will be a good match naturally, but I can’t imagine a woman would want to work and split the housework with someone who has your attitude (“most women are bad and not worth having around”) so you might need to change that if you do decide to get back into dating. I can’t connect on what you mean on sex not being the best thing in the world and the literal purpose of life, but I do know my husband felt like you on that front before he met me. He thought people were just exaggerating on how good it is. Maybe, like him, you just haven’t met the right match there either? It’s not like I’m even that good in bed, if anything I’m a bit of a selfish lover. It’s just that we’re a good fit together. Good luck, man. I hope you find the right fit and realize men and women are equally selfish and equally selfless.
Controversial opinion, but I believe anesthesia is even better than sex. If you’re ever been put under for surgery, you know what I’m talking about.
And they say that DMT can top even that. Only problem is that you have to take a trip outside the US to get it.
Oh my God! Someone else that enjoys being put under! I wouldn’t say it is quite pleasurable, but definitely a fun experience. It’s like time travel. You remember them telling you to count down from ten, you get to 7-6 and then BAM, you are waking up after the operation is done. I’ve had 3 surgeries and they have all been pretty fun experiences, but to be fair, I’ve never had complications and non of them were life threatening.
I get there’s a bit of biterness here, but speaking as an older millennial this was my experience as well. Feminism created a weird gap of women becoming strong and independent, but with some meant ‘im not going to do traditional fem, but expect you to do traditional man’ with no compromise. I ended up finding a wonderful woman and we both split everything, but it took me 20 years.
Yeah, probably haven’t met the right one and all that. For now, no company is better than bad company
What’s the rush?
I would guess the rush is that you would have someone to split your crippling living expenses with.
That’s not a good reason to share a bed with someone
Capitalism is not a good stable equitable way to structure our lives… yet it persists.
Re: “sex isn’t all it’s hyped up to be.” Sex with someone you love is the best thing.
Good sex is honestly a toss up, I’ve had great sex in horrible relationships and bad sex in great relationships. I understand being in love with someone enhances it but love is a feeling which is impossible to sustain permanently
I’ve not found loving someone to help with the quality of the sex all that much. Maybe they just didn’t love me back or something. The crazy one was always great and was the only one who wanted it as often as I did but the rest of that relationship was a mess.
Have you actually tried taking unrepentant time off, where you have no work or social obligations, and grabbing unhealthy snacks and drinks, curling up with a good game, and zoning out of reality for hours or days at a time?
Sex is nice and all, and we’re hard wired to like it more than most activities, but it does not hold a single candle to unrepentant free time when you’re not used to said free time.
Have you actually tried taking unrepentant time off, where you have no work or social obligations, and grabbing unhealthy snacks and drinks, curling up with a good game, and zoning out of reality for hours or days at a time?
Cosplaying as a free human? Yeah I would love to pretend for a little while and forget the shit planet I was forced to exist on.
What a crazy way to say you’ve never had sex.
All that but getting a handie.
Agreed. Cost of living and wealth inequality are getting so bad it’s breaking society. We see it everywhere and it’s weird to prioritize non economic explanations.
Although hetero dating is just total bs, speaking as a queer gal. All that old cruft is rotten and it’s gotta go
I went out on a first date with this woman recently and we just split the bill 50/50. It was a refreshing change of scenery. I think that should be standard so that nobody has any expectations on either side. As time goes on you can figure out how to allocate cash flow but first dates should never be 100% on one gender, unless one of them are rich (in my opinion at least.)
45% of men 18 to 25 have never asked out a woman in person
I can’t speak for the whole 45% but some of us have heard stories from women about how that other 55% can behave. I think I’d rather wait for a lady to (never) ask me out then put someone in the position of thinking “Oh, is he gonna take it bad if I say no?”
Also, some of us are gay.
You’ve drank too much ideological koolaid. People aren’t what you read in the news or a great deal of the internet.
It’s actually really easy to get a date in person if you are not a total ogre and treat women like normal people.
Weirdo white knights can easily end up as incels. Neither of those groups tend to do very well in actual social situations.
It’s really easy?
This is it. I feel like I am inflicting myself on women. That I am a problem for them simply for existing. Why would I do something like that to someone if its as bad as we are always being told?
You’re not a burden.
Get out and ask some people. Plenty of women like it as long as you’re polite
“Polite” implies that if you’re agreeable and friendly women will understand that you’re interested in them and not just being agreeable and friendly.
I think part of the problem is that what we’re all really after is fucking, which isn’t polite at all. Being polite about it just makes you look weak and ineffective at the thing that we all say we want but can’t mention.
If any mention of sex by a man is considered inappropriate, how is a man supposed to negotiate sex?
This is a big reason why I’m engaged: We got the impolite part out of the way first.
The “sex is impolite” thing… I think that’s a lot bigger than a lot of people give credit. I grew up in a non-denominational Christian house in the deep South. The only sex education I got was abstinence only, if you have sex with someone it’s basically the same as having sex with every person that person has ever had sex with. Your penis will fall off, her vagina will fall off, and you’ll have 37 babies.
Obviously, on an intellectual level, I’ve rejected all of that. Sex is fine and normal, having multiple partners throughout your life is normal. Your penis and her vagina will be fine, as long as you’re careful. No kids if you’re careful.
Despite this, for my entire life, sex has just been a thing that you don’t talk about. You don’t ask for. You’re not a friend if you want sex, you’re a pest. But also, you can’t want sex from someone you’ve just met, then you’re a creep and a pervert. You have to be their friend first, build a relationship and then you can want sex, but remember - you’re not a friend if you want sex, so you’re just living a lie to get sex. It’s a vicious catch 22. One of the biggest driving factors in all animals - sex - and we’ve moralized it so that we both cannot seek it and must obtain it.
I’ve got a fair few female friends. Some of them I would not mind having a deeper relationship with. But there’s always the struggle. Am I just being nice to get with her? Well, I can’t do that - I’d feel like a horrible person. So let’s just be friends and ignore the feelings for too long. Let’s let her believe we’re just friends, nothing more, until I can’t ignore it, confess feelings, and - shocker - that’s not a recipe for a relationship.
We’re all products of our environment. I can recognize a lot of the factors that have led me to having the mentality that I do. Unfortunately, the environments for so many of us are just not good ones. It feels like every major force in our lives is pushing us towards isolation. The problem isn’t men, isn’t women, it’s all just fucked. The whole thing needs an overhaul.
Thanks for this because it is exactly what I’m talking about. I wasn’t raised in a Christian house, but anything that was even vaguely titillating was considered obscene. When your mom angrily throws out a Victoria’s Secret catalog calling it “disgusting” how are you supposed to feel about liking the pictures?
If someone thinks their physical attraction is disgusting, perverse, or annoying how are they supposed to negotiate a relationship?
And unfortunately, one of the only places that are consistently telling young men they AREN’T disgusting, perverse and annoying is the same place that actively makes men into annoying, perverse, disgusting people. For a lot of young men, the only consistent positive reinforcement they receive is from Tate et al. The only ones teaching men (poorly, but still) how to navigate these interpersonal relationships are the ones turning them into pests.
None of this is the individual woman’s fault. None of this is the individual man’s fault. It’s a societal failing, and the only way we’re going to fix it is as a society. Men’s problems are women’s problems, and women’s problems are men’s problems. We all shape the world we share, and we all have a duty to shape it into a better one, for everyone.
The only stories of women with bad experiences I know of weren’t about having to tell somebody ‘No’. They were about having repeatedly say ‘No’ again and again to the same person. If you ask a woman out and take a ‘No’ gracefully, you are not a bad experience for anybody except you experiencing rejection of course. The hypothetic situation where she considers wether you may take it bad is more about a broader social phenomenon but not about you in that moment. The moment you are like ‘Okay, that’s sad, but I understand’ and go your way, everything will be fine.
You should think about some preconditions about asking her out like not doing it while blocking the only exit or while she’s at work but I guess that counts as “Making a good first impression” anyways regardless of gender.
So many comments echoing “women told us to stop approaching us, so we did!”
I mean no offense, truly, but you missed the point if that’s the message you took. It wasn’t “Do not, under any circumstances, speak to a woman” it was, “if you shoot your shot and she’s not interested, move on and don’t make it weird. If she is at work, be very careful as customer service does not equal flirting.” Yes, there are some grey areas (not sure even the best gentleman could slide up to a woman alone in a parking lot and not freak her out), but some of you are kicking up the board without even moving a piece. Stop pushing the narrative that only attractive men can speak to women. Not only are you assuming you’re not attractive by saying that (which cannot be good for your confidence) , you’re reducing women’s feelings and concerns as being blindly shallow and unwarranted.
The world is not full of only beautiful people, yet people still live and love. Not to dismiss the difficulties (as an uggo myself, I get it), but you can get out there, I know you can.
Why does it have to be men doing the asking? Maybe it’s the 'tism talking but I tend to be very onboard for the whole equity and equality stuff especially in a relationship. I have never understood why people feel so strongly about gendered roles or activities. Despite being functional in pretty much all traditionally gendered skills (in both directions), I haven’t really ever encountered someone that takes it as seriously.
Of the women I have dated that have been the most vocal about equity and DEI when I point out that they tend to all back to traditional gender roles when it’s to their advantage they have all essentially ended up saying that it is just their personal preference. Well no shit. I’m sure there are plenty of men who would prefer to be able to have all of the housework done by their partner, or billionaires that don’t want to give up any of their money even if they talk about wealth inequality. Just because it’s a preference doesn’t mean it’s OK.
Men don’t have to be the ones asking, but I was responding to the idea that men can’t approach women by default. Either gender can shoot their shot.
And those women can have a preference for a more “traditional” role, it just means they need to be aware that not every guy they meet is going to be cool with that and that may mean making a choice down the line. The idea is that two people are in a relationship that works for them and everyone is safe and respected. So, yes, it’s okay for people to have that preference. The issue is forcing your preference to be the standard.
The issue with the women I have met in my example is that they only want the advantages of the traditional without the negatives. They want the emotional and labor and physical chores to be shared equally, but they don’t want to be responsible for initiating or pursuing. Nor do they have any interest in learning how to do basic things with tools and would rather their partner deal with it.
If we aren’t going to give a misogynist a pass because they don’t want to give up what they have for equality because that’s just his preference, then I don’t think it’s fair to give anyone else a pass when applying the same logic.
There are definitely a few (almost certainly a vocal minority) women who do say that - to never approach a woman under any circumstances. They’re the extreme ones, for sure, but we can’t ignore that they exist. Not in an age where everyone has a platform and the extreme positions get clicks.
Another example is the explosion of the manosphere shit. You get one dbag like Tate spreading shit that looks like self help for men. They get popular based on these ideas that seem okay on the surface, but they’re really just manipulative, shady, outright illegal, etc. but because they’re extreme views, that promise results, and that the target audience really wants to hear, now you can’t go anywhere without seeing red/blue pill shit.
Circling back, all it takes is a few people saying and repeating “no approaching women in public EVER” and it spreads. Frustrated women repeat it (not even being literal), more men and women see it, engage with it because it’s polarizing, and it grows. It’s absolutely not hard to imagine that a lot of men truly believe that most women don’t want to be approached ever.
I totally get that, but I just feel we have to do our part to stop pushing that narrative or at least explain it. It’s not like men are stupid by default and can’t be trusted in the public. It should have been an “FYI” mind of thing, instead of a decree.
Correct, men are not stupid by default. And yet there is still a very vocal subset of the population that shouts that at every opportunity.
It rarely matters what is actually true. We don’t form our opinions of ourselves based on any objective truth. We form them based on what behaviors get reinforced and what behaviors get punished. Regardless of the truth, if the most prominent messaging coming in is “you’re bad just because you were born a male” then you’ll start to believe it.
I get the feeling that the best interpretation of your message is that you’re denying that statement, the “all men are bad” statement. And that’s a good thing. We need more people saying “not all men are bad” - but we have to do it in a way that acknowledges why people feel that way. It does no good to say “no one is saying don’t approach people ever” when at least a few very loud, very aggressive voices ARE saying that, enough to drown out the majority population with reasonable intentions.
It’s not like men are stupid by default and can’t be trusted in public
Have absolutely heard this verbatim from women in my group chats. Sometimes it’s nice to not be considered a guy because I present v femme, but when the dogpiling starts and I kinda just have to hold my tongue it really sucks to see my friends look at all men as wild beasts.
I told this story on here before, but it’s relevant.
One day, I was walking around my city with a couple of friends, another guy (M) and a girl (J). We worked together for a while, all generally got along well, killing some time before J had a tattoo appointment. As we’re walking around, we find some stickers covering a light pole, including a pretty new “Yes, all men” sticker. J takes a photo of it and starts posting it on Instagram.
Cue a pretty in-depth discussion. I was pretty hurt. Here I was, hanging with a woman who was actively spreading the very narrative we’re talking about now. Fortunately, I don’t tend to keep company with people I can’t chat with about important topics, so I was able to actually explain why, while I get the actual intent of the message, the relevance in the current climate, but also why it’s very damaging to everyone in society.
I think about that event a fair bit. It’s emblematic of how polarizing the discussions have to be to gain momentum. It has to be all or nothing, or you don’t get to build the message. It’s in every aspect of life now. Dating, Politics, religion, online discourse… If you’re not at the extreme end, buy in fully, then you’re at best ignorant and at worst a false flag.
fuck em. let em figure it out. this is no time for weakness.
18-25 in 2025 means 13-20 when COVID happened.
We’re going to see the long term effects of people in that micro generation losing much of what the high school social scene represented, that low stakes junior league of forming new relationships, where meeting is easy, with lots of natural opportunities for free interaction, and making new connections is normal. Learning to flirt in that environment is a stepping stone towards being able to navigate the adult world, where people don’t have your schedule planned out for you, and you won’t naturally see the same people 100+ days out of the year, and have 50+ chances to shoot your shot when you’re ready.
And yes, sure, the loss of third places and changing social dynamics and gender roles and the economy play a role, too, for pretty much everyone under 40. But it’s worth pointing out that this specific age cohort has special challenges on top of the issues that everyone else is living, too.
That first sentence hit me like a truck
Surely this feeling is due to some kind of chronoton radiation.
Eject the warp core.
I was a total social reject in high school because I was a queer girl in a Nazi shithole and I don’t know if I’ll ever recover. Although the social disruption only lasted for 2 years due to COVID so there could be differences between people who were freshmen vs juniors. Worth studying
Ah so the rest of the boys had the same experience I had going to an all boys school then, misery loves company I guess
there also could end up being echos of the disturbance for years to come as the traditions that would have been spread by upperclassmen died out.
Social changes have caused chaos. A lot of the “traditional” dating methods existed to give structure to finding a partner. Unfortunately, those structures got trashed by the general update to gender roles. While these changes are great in many ways, it left young people in limbo. It was eventually replaced with online dating, for many. Unfortunately, that, in turn has been trashed by corporate takeover.
You’ve also got the outlier problem. The problematic men and women make up a small proportion of the population, but do a disproportionate amount of dating. A lot of the complaints are aimed at the problematic groups. Unfortunately, they don’t care. It’s mostly the non-problematic people who get the wrong message.
I think the effect of other societal changes not immediately associated with relationships might be underestimated here too, such as the commercialization of any and all free time activities where one might casually meet people of the preferred gender on a regular basis combined with the limited disposable income. Or (in the US at least) the elimination of sidewalks and other public places where one might encounter people from your own neighborhood outside of a car. More customized media consumption leading to fewer guaranteed shared topics to discuss compared to the time when generally everyone watched the same things on TV and read the same news at a similar time. I could probably come up with other examples but the point is that a lot of things changed that make just meeting people to consider to ask out much more difficult than it used to be a few decades ago.
I fully agree. A lot of entertainment options have moved from self organising to a fire hose model. It used to be you just gave youngsters a place to go, and let them work out what to do with it. Now it’s hyper-commercialised. Everyone sits/stands there and absorbs entertainment from a central source.
It’s also not just young adults and teenagers. Pre teens and early teens have nowhere to really interact organically. Without that solid foundation of peer socialising, they are trying to build on soft sand.
It doesn’t help that society is actively hostile to groups of kids and teens. Malls increasingly ban unaccompanied minors, “get off my lawn” attitudes lead to closing down of public parks and rec type facilities, violent paramilitary police are a threat to their safety, etc.
I agree that throwing young people together in the same place doesn’t automatically just work and there needs to.be some sort of support system for people who fall through the cracks
Change is not chaos. Tone it down. It’s just an adjustment to changing status quo.
reading this thread I’m glad I’m a removed in a relationship. my spouse is the best. i got so fucking lucky.
there’s a massive epidemic of loneliness out there. the loss of the free/cheap third spaces, lockdowns, and social media have made a fucking shitstorm. I’m scared for the generations below me just starting to enter the workforce. so many kids just unable to function properly.
i can’t solve it. but I’ve been putting my devices down more and (trying) to get out more. get more sunlight and fresh air, even if i just sit outside and watch the ducks. it’s hard out there. give yourself a break, okay? eat a snack and take a walk.
I’m married to a tinder girl now so say what you want about that but for me, it was fear of further social ostracization. I always struggled to fit in, in grade school because I was asian in a sea of white kids. Some kids were literally afraid to touch the “chinese boy” (i was korean but try telling that to rabid white elementary and middle school kids looking for any reason to other anyone). I became a huge people pleaser and tried not to stick out for any reason. I had also seen how the “popular” kids treated any of the geeks who tried to shoot their shot and I didn’t want to fuck up any of the social capital I thought I had. It obviously got better in late high school as kids grew up but the damage was done. I had a few girlfriends in high school and college but they mostly came after me or we kind of just found ourselves getting close so there wasn’t any formal “asking out” type of stuff. Either way I probably blew a lot of romantic opportunities but it is what it is.
I got a boy due in June so hopefully I can instill the confidence in him that I didn’t have.
tinder girl
You mean you met her on tinder. What makes her a tinder girl and not you a tinder girl?
Edit meant boy
Obviously he means she is dry and flammable, thus is great for starting fires.
My wife is also a wooden mannequin.
Ah okay, he must be in the green text
His cock
Thanks for clearing that up
Less that and more he likes his masculinity
Unless the person you respond to is trans the fact that they describe themselves as being referred to as a “chinese boy” would suggest that they are likely not a girl.
Thanks! That’s helps!
We are commonly referred to as tinder folk
A lot of people in this thread are talking about how much women suck because of X, Y, Z. But like… have you tried not dating shitty women? Or at least not getting so hung up on a woman who treats you poorly? Yeah, it sucks to be treated badly, but consider that you just dodged a bullet. You don’t need women like that in your life. Find a woman you actually connect with, someone you share interests with, not just someone you want to sleep with.
Two hard truths a lot of single men need to reckon with:
1: Most people are kind of shitty, and therefore, most women are kind of shitty. I could go on about how consumer culture and social media encourage toxic traits, but the fact of the matter is you should focus on not being a shitty person yourself, and you shouldn’t settle for shitty people either.
2: With number one in mind, you need to broaden your horizons regarding what kind of woman you’re attracted to. Porn and social media have rotted our brains when it comes to attraction. Maybe I’m just pervy, but honestly, I can find something attractive in just about everyone. 90% of people are at least a 7/10 if they put in some effort, and a 7/10 who you truly vibe with is better than a 10/10 who treats you like shit. And trust me, when you form a true romantic connection with someone, they become even more attractive in your eyes.
There are good, beautiful women out there, I know because I’m marrying one. We met online, and she’s one of the kindest and smartest people I’ve ever met, and I find her more beautiful than anyone else in the world. And I’m a fat, impoverished, autist. If I can do it, so can you.
Most people are kind of shitty, and therefore, most women are kind of shitty.
I don’t know if this is exactly inspiring anyone haha.
But men are equally shitty, so you just have to find someone on the same shit spectrum as you!
It should be that most people are broken in some way and finding a person who is broken in a way that helps fill in your problems while you fill in there’s is a difficult but not impossible process.
That’s exactly it. Help each other heal and grow.
Just need to find the puzzle piece that fits, and then two half broken pieces can grow into a strong unit.
Just needs empathy, respect and good communication. It’s work, but it’s possible if both sides are genuinely interested in making it work. Just do not be a self-centered asshole and don’t have such a person as a partner.
It seems like so many relationships these days are shallow decoration. If you can’t talk to your partner about everything and you are not at least best friends, why the fuck even bother ? If it’s not the person you can trust your life with, it’s not your partner, but a fuck buddy. Some people seem to have some misunderstanding here what a serious relationship is, or do not even want such a thing.
Lol yeah I read that whole thing and had to a double take because it reminded of Elon asking why everyone hates him.
We can be shitty together! :p
I mean, you gotta start by seeing the positives.
For me personally, it’s a combination of factors. A non zero number of my exes lost interest after a while and it damaged my ego pretty badly. Dating Apps are a string of getting ghosted with the occasional date that leads to me paying for drinks and dinner, only to get ghosted. I’ve always been a shy person and I can only handle so much failure before I don’t want to play anymore. I missed out on the high school and college dating scenes and it shows. There is one common denominator in all of my dating failures and it’s me.
