US President Donald Trump is facing widespread criticism and accusations of proposing ethnic cleansing after stating that he would like to “just clean out” Gaza and relocate its Palestinian population to neighbouring countries.
Speaking aboard Air Force One during a flight from Las Vegas to Miami on Saturday, Trump described Gaza as a “demolition site” and suggested moving its residents to Jordan and Egypt.
“I’d like Egypt to take people. I’d like Jordan to take people,” Trump said. “You’re talking about probably a million and a half people, and we just clean out that whole thing.”
He added that the move could be either temporary or long-term, saying, “something has to happen”
To everybody who voted against Kamala Harris because she didn’t change her stance on Gaza, how does it feel to be played harder than a tenor saxophone?
Funny that you think Gaza genocide was the reason people didn’t vote vs pure laziness. The Gaza thing was a scapegoat for 90% of them.
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Trump is probably even more pro-Israel than Biden.
It’s a real photo finish for which admin wants more dead Palestinians.
How did we get played?
You’ll often see Zionists condemn Egypt and Syria for not taking the Palestinians “oh the Palestinians are so bad that even the other Muslim countries won’t take them”. No, they just don’t want to be complicit in ethnic cleansing.
I can’t believe there are actually people who are surprised about his ‘proposal’ at all. Like… everyone saw this coming, right? Plenty of people have been warning other people for years that Trump would do this sort of shit.
But hey, what do I know. I’m just an alarmist fearmonger. Or whatever they used to call me.
I don’t mean to defend the Democrats, but the Pro-Palestine crowd has been throwing all the blame on the Democratic Party for the Gaza genocide. Which was wrong-headed as it was pretty obvious that the Trump admin would double down on US support to Israel… where the Democrats did do something to resolve the conflict.
I don’t mean to defend the Democrats, but the Pro-Palestine crowd has been throwing all the blame on the Democratic Party for the Gaza genocide.
The Pro-Palestine crowd has been throwing all the blame on the Democratic party for the Gaza genocide because the Democratic party was in power for all of the span of the genocide until Trump and Republicans took power a week ago or so.
Let me explain this to you and please listen, now the Pro-Palestine crowd will throw all the additional blame on the Republican Party and Donald Trump for being in power as the genocide worsens because we all know it tragically very likely wilI.
That is how being against this works for most. It isn’t that hard to grasp.
where the Democrats did do something to resolve the conflict.
What are you referring to? Biden claimed to be “working toward” a ceasefire for 15 months then Trump’s ambassador went over there for 3 days and the ceasefire immediately happened.
Trump is pro-genocide and has no problem wiping out all Palestinian life but him and Biden are equally as bad on this issue
You have to remember though, the pro-Palestinian crowd doesn’t care about the rhetoric the parties deliver to the domestic American audience. Obviously the Democrats repeatedly claiming their working towards a peaceful resolution while not actually doing so, rather than Trump just coming out and taking the mask off matters a hell of a lot more than the actual damage and death happening in Gaza, but good luck convincing the loony pro-Palestinians of that.
Backlash only matters if he or anyone he surrounds himself with actually gives a shit.
Love that all the pearl clutchers are in this thread to say that NOW the genocide is bad, as if they’ll catch leftists in a whataboutism.
The truth is that Trump is giving the same carte blanche that Biden did to Bibi. It remains on the people of Israel to stop this conflict, as it always has. You can’t pretend the genocide is only bad when your enemy is doing it, this was the same plan under Biden. Trump just likes bragging about the cruelty, whereas Biden was smart enough to pretend to care.
Both candidates are bad on one issue so it’s all the same! No. Fuck you.
Both candidates were bad on a lot of issues, but I’m glad you jumped to a conclusion that I never stated to prove my point so quickly.
People clicked this thread for the topic of this issue. So, he’s making a point about this one issue. Don’t see any statements claiming Trump has a level head on anything else.
If you strip all the politics of nuance, everyone is exactly the same and nothing ever happens
when utilitarianism seems less burdensome than whatever twisted knot the “genocide joe” folks have to tell themselves justify their actions, you gotta wonder about the choices they made.
The carnage in Palestine is far reduced now than it was a month ago. I have no confidence that it will hold, but so far the only way that Trump has been worse than Biden on the issue is that Trump is explicit in his rhetoric as opposed to trying to sugar coat it. I realize that to Americans, who are only directly effected by the genocide in so far as hearing about it makes them sad, having their leaders tell them soothing lies means everything, but to those actually in Palestine, it doesn’t make a material difference.
So “not sugarcoating it” is supplying the Israeli government with the penetrating bombs that increase civilian casualties that Biden halted?
Biden may have been largely indifferent to Gazans but Trump is actively hostile and will encourage the brutality in spite of other pressures such as the ICC, which we already see him pushing the ICC to relieve Netanyahu.
Genocide Joe was actually doing ethnic cleansing, so far trump is only talking about it
Edit: I guess trump is actually doing it too, they’re both equally bad on this
Oh, did his administration stop supplying weapons to Israel?
So you agree that supplying weapons to Israel for the last 15 months was ethnic cleansing. You agree that Biden and Trump are both pro-ethnic cleansing
Oh, so now providing weapons to Israel is ethnic cleansing?
If a known mass murderer asks for a gun and bullets do you consider it ethical to give them an assault rifle and 10,000 rounds and then refuse to even remotely resist when they proceed to use those items to commit mass murder?
I don’t, no. But people like the person I’m replying to have spend the last fifteen months insisting it’s fine.
Two days after he was inaugurated the UN was reporting 92% of residential buildings were damaged and destroyed. The genocide was almost done before Trump got in office and people are still out here pretending Biden was any better.
https://www.dezeen.com/2025/01/22/gaza-housing-92-per-cent-destroyed-damaged-un-report/
EDIT: elected -> inaugurated
Biden was [poorly] negotiating peace.
Trump wants to help Israel finish the job.
If you want to stretch words that far Trump is [poorly] negotiating our climate commitments
I’m not stretching anything. Biden did negotiate a ceasefire. He could have done it much sooner if he had cut off the weapons, but a lot of that was on Congress for pushing to keep those congressionally mandated weapon shipments flowing.
Trump is actively working against the climate.
Idiotic comparisons like yours do not help anything.
I see that BlueMAGA are fully rejecting reality and embracing alternative facts to cope with their election loss.
Of course it is ethnic cleansing. But in his opinion, it is the good kind of ethnic cleansing. Just like deporting immigrants, or sometimes even Native Americans…
Of course, if USA really wants the Gaza population to be displaced, it would be consistent for them to take on a significant proportion of them as immigrants.
And they wouldn’t even be undocumented migrants!
But they would still be brown :(
And they’ll eventually realise that “good” ethnic cleansing is actually quite expensive, and who will really miss them anyway?
Trump’s administration should really just come up with some sort of, ‘last answer’. Something cheaper than deportation, doesn’t let those undesirables the opportunity to come back in, and sends a message to any other undesirables. I just can’t think of what that could be. /S
Oohhh, like some sort of solution? Like one that’s final?? Hmmm…
I guess all the “Genocide Joe” commenters aren’t getting paid to skew the election anymore, so they won’t be here to comment.
Hi I am here. I called Biden “Genocide Joe” because frankly that is an accurate label.
I am here commenting that I already have and will continue to shit on Trump for being a genocidal bigot.
Now can you proceed to take your foot out of your mouth?
Genocide Joe. Genocide Trump. Feel better? I dont.
I haven’t seen “Genocide Don” yet. Funny that.
That’s because Trump only just got in and hasn’t (yet) done anything close to what Biden did in terms of genocide
Isn’t Trump’s middle name James? Genocide James works. And you could Photoshop him trying to look cool, like dark Brandon. But obviously just sad like some 60 year old trying to look cool at the barbeque and failing miserably, but even worse because he’s older… And trump.
It’s John (which also happens to be a pseudonym he’s used). You could say “Genocide John,” but nobody would know who you’re talking about.
Or, and this is crazy, Biden could have earned more votes for the DNC by using the Leahy Law and requiring Israel to stop committing war crimes if they wanted to continue to receive military aid.
Almost like it’s the responsibility of parties and politicians to earn votes in a democratic system. Not the duty of voters to vote for the “correct” party, which is what you see codified in Authoritarian governments. The writers of our Constitution specifically said the reason for having elections so often was to make sure politicians were responsible to the people, not the other way around.
So the more you try to blame the voters, the more you make them not want to vote blue.
I’m right here. Trump is gearing up to act as genocidal as Biden was but he’s not there yet
They’re still around unfortunately, but they are fewer in number.
The bots left, we’re left with the dumbasses who believed them.
Just check the downvote total to see how many accounts are still here.
There are a few stragglers around still. And just as sanctimonious with their tiresome and reckless high-flying rhetoric about how principled they are…
sigh.
I’m here. Biden is a genocidal monster, and nothing Trump can do will change that fact.
.ml user with a braindead take? yeah, that checks out.
So you don’t think Biden was complicit in the genocide? The one he funded?
The fact that you place the entire weight of 80 years of US Israeli policy on its most reluctant participant demonstrates your agenda. If Trump was in office on Oct. 7, there would be no palestinian territories anymore. They’d be under the Israeli flag and stained with the blood of American soldiers.
If Trump was in office on Oct. 7
But he wasn’t, Biden was, and Biden made the choice to back Israel in its genocide to the hilt.
So much for the rational bit of your username.
Though, I guess you can be rational and wrong if you start from false premises.
Biden, and any other American president, can end Israeli wars with a single phone call.
Reagan did it.
Bush did it.
Clinton did it.
In fact, the Israeli military systematically doesn’t know how to end wars because they’ve never had to do it. America has always ended their wars.
It’s literally an aspect of their political ideology:
‘Oh our party can’t be blamed for the war goals not being accomplished. We had to stop because America’
You’re either so horrifically ignorant of recent history (my still living father is older than the state of Israel) that any opinion you spout can be tossed out (no matter how rational), or you know this and are trying to actively provide cover for a president who was happy with the slaughter of mostly children.
Which is it?
Edit: and to be exact, it’s 77 years. And the US wasn’t exactly friendly at the start due to the perceived communist sympathies of the young state. You know, the whole cold war thing? You may have heard of it?
Reagan started the 3 billion in military aid to Israel and the other two you mentioned continued it. And this is the very thing Biden is criticized for.
You say they ended wars with phone calls, without specifically saying what you’re referring to. But I can guess the following two things are true of Reagan, Bush, and Clinton: 1) they weren’t dealing with Netanyahu, and 2) they weren’t dealing with Hamas. Netanyahu was clearly not interested in ending the war until his buddy Trump was president, so there never was an option to bring “peace with a phone call”. Biden held back weapons to Israel, taking flak from how own party to do so - did any of his predecessors?
I’m not here to say Biden did enough, but you guys and the pro Israel side have something in common - you have a particular hate for Biden.
…
Really?
That is your response?
https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=Reagan+Israel+war
There is nothing rational about you. It’s impossible to be rational with absolutely no historical knowledge.
It doesn’t matter who the leader of Israel is. Israel isn’t a real country. It doesn’t exist without continuous US funding. In fact, a third of ALL U.S. foreign aid has gone to Israel. Without free cash from the US, Israel goes bankrupt. Without free weapons from America, Israel goes bankrupt.
Any American president, at any time, can end any Israeli war with a phone call. That is, in fact, how all Israeli wars have ended. It’s actually hurt Israel because they don’t know how to set achievable war goals. Instead their wars end when America demands they do.
This is also the same deal Hamas had accepted since may. You mention them like they have been an impediment to the peace negotiations.
Biden held back one shipment of 2,000 lb bombs. A weapon that our military doctrine doesn’t allow us to use near population centers due to the likelihood of civilian casualties, and Israel wanted to drop them in one of the most densely populated places on earth.
Note that I said one shipment. We did provide them other shipments of 2000 lb. The only reason he held up that one shipment was to earn the respect of the utterly, foolishly gullible. Of course, he was required by the Leahy Law to stop all shipments to Israel.
Assuming good faith, which is a stretch at this point, you are utterly and completely ignorant of this topic.
Yeah, I have a hate-on for any worthless fucks that commit genocide. And when you have the power to end it, and don’t, then you are responsible for it.
Now, before you complain about me not providing links, spend 5 seconds trying to educate yourself by using Google. I’m not going to provide links proving the sky is blue, either. Some things you are responsible for finding out yourself.
The fact that you place the entire weight of 80 years of US Israeli policy on its most reluctant participant
Biden was not reluctant in the slightest and neither are you.
Yeah, you can’t get away with critising Dear Leader Biden on .world
And yet, here you are doing just that.
Now, let’s all take a moment and quietly imagine what would happen if someone should go to .ml and call out Putin for being a sad little coward that can’t take criticism without windowing someone to death…
Still not hearing any trump criticism from ya…
And I’m not hearing any criticism of Putin, Leobold II, Pol Pot, or Charles Manson from you. What’s you point?
Yup, more diversion. No one wants to engage with your bad faith arguments.
removed, you were the one who made the bad faith argument first. Don’t like your own medicine?
Woah. What’s it called when you can’t tell sarcasm and serious apart? Godwinned?
The .ml troll that got banned, are they serious or are they playing? That went 0 to nazi in the fewest steps I think I’ve ever seen.
What are you talking about?
Your removed post at the same level in this chain. You called the guy you were slapfighting with a nazi and there was a Hitler comparison as well.
I can’t tell if you actually believe that, are just trolling, or are muddying the waters to control the narrative.
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deleted by creator
Good, keep making yourself known so we know who to ignore.
Block me then
Block me dumbass
Nah.
“hmm, funny how all the people criticizing genocide Joe disappeared”
“No we didn’t, are right here”
“Blocked”
Most of the genocide Joe commenters were russian bots. Those left were fooled by them.
BlueAnon in full force
I only started using the term after the election, I wish I was paid. It’s crazy how I’m expected to shut up about it for the next 4 years. Apparently, asking the dems to change their stance on genocide of everything is too much and everyone would rather stick their head in the sand. The moment someone enables it just a bit more then them, they get none of the blame and we get to wait through 4 years of shit just for them to give us literally the same stance.
Both parties enable it and are complicit. Defending either on the subject is clear bootlicking imo.
No one is defending either on the subject. We are simply stating that one is WORSE than the other by an order of magnitude. Honestly, how can you not see that?
I see a lot of people actively defending Biden in this very thread
Not only that, but if you took them at their word, that donvict and Kamala would have been the eXaCtSaMe on Gaza, then that issue is cancelled out and you have to weigh all the other policy positions, and even then, it is clear that donvict is a TERRIBLE choice compared to Kamala.
They have no excuse. None.
Here’s my excuse: I’m not American, and I’m not going to refrain from criticising a genocidal monster just because Americans treat their political parties like sportsteams.
It’s not just that he’s much worse it’s that some people somehow expected him to be better?!?
His comment implies anyone speaking disfavorably about the dems stance on genocide is somehow a paid shill.
Read the rest of the comments. It’s always the same thing. The dems lost because the voters got manipulated into thinking genocide was something to draw a line over. Well it fucking was. I still think not voting and voting for Trump of all people is massively stupid but I hate the message we are sending.
Trump isn’t worse, he’s the same on it. We shouldn’t be calling them anything other then Genocide Joe and Genocide Trump. Biden did a lot of good but his whole legacy is not breaking with genocide.
We have 4 years to exert pressure and make sure the next candidate isn’t a mossad and wallstreet plant. Instead we are infighting like peasants and trying are hardest to not hold the politicians who are suppose to represent us accountable.
Biden did a lot of good but his whole legacy is not breaking with genocide.
Now Trump has already undone most of that good, has 4 more years to cause damage, and the genocide that you “drew a line over” hasn’t stopped. Nice job.
I voted strategically but I shouldnt have to do it while gritting my teeth. They offered nothing because they thought they had an easy win. If we keep pointing at scapegoats and refuse to lay the blame with the ones actually in charge, we get the same exact choice in 4 years and we will lose again.
Ya, drawing the line was dumb but so is blaming the ones that drew it instead of the driver that’s sending a train straight into a group of children.
they didnt offer nothing but it was ridiculous to parade around with Liz Cheney - possibly the least popular politician in the US. I can only think they were trying to get Trump elected
They offered nothing because they thought they had an easy win.
Remember, nothing was…
A woman’s bodily autonomy. A Trans person’s right to comfort in their body. The separation between church and state. A birthright citizens right to live in their country. An employee’s right to a safe job.
And so much more… And it’s only been 7 days. Fuck anyone who said the Dems brought nothing to the table. You ignored what they were fighting to keep a hold of in order to parrot some bullshit Russian disinfo false equivalency about a genocide being committed by a different fucking leader in a different fucking country.
You ignored what they were fighting to keep a hold of in order to parrot some bullshit Russian disinfo false equivalency about a genocide being committed by a different fucking leader in a different fucking country.
I would find the lesser evil argument more convincing if the people advocating it didn’t always turn out to be genocide denying conspiracy theorists who will ignore reality to defend unspeakable acts
Seems like you’re not actually capable of pragmatically choosing the lesser evil while still condeming it. Seems like you always end up defending evil.
Why are you ignoring all the funds and arms sent to this entire different country? Do you think all that military aid is Russian disinfo?
Trump immediately authorized 2000 lb bombs for Israel. That wasn’t a thing before. He’s worse and you suck for enabling him.
I do not know how to explain to Blue MAGA that symbolic gestures do not matter more than the actual material effect on Gaza.
Biden authorized sending 2000lb bombs.
Then it came out that such bombs were being sent and under pressure he paused the sending of those bombs.
Trump resumed it.
You’re whitewashing Biden’s part in the willful mass murder of civilians (the US Military itself refuses to use 2000lb bombs exactly because of their massive collateral damage and Israel was using them in an urban area thus maximizing the killing from said collateral damage) for political point scoring.
While you’re claiming the other poster “sucks” for being critical of Biden’s stance on this you might want to look at yourself in a mirror.
I hope you’re right about four years because that’s a return to normalcy that I can barely imagine right now
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His comment implies anyone speaking disfavorably about the dems stance on genocide is somehow a paid shill.
We’re easy to dismiss that way. Then they don’t have to think about how monstrous they have been to support genocide all this time.
Did you say you voted for Kamala?
She was the only viable option other than trump, as pro-genocide centrists were so fond of gloating. I voted for her. You gonna gloat that I voted for your genocide now?
Yep! You voted for genocide. Thanks for admitting that.
The paid shills were running a con. If you weren’t on payroll, then you’re the mark.
Seeing how most of the conmen have cut and run now that the job is done, it really only leaves one option for you.
There are a disturbing number of people in this thread who feel that condemning Democrats is more important than worrying about what is about to happen to Palestinians.
As if you folks were using genocide as a tool. And it’s pretty hard to read.
When you dismiss people condemning the democrats, you essentially send the message that enabling genocide is okay.
I see attacking the voters as a zionist dog whistle, to desensitize on the subject and low key make genocide something that can be overlooked for the “right” reasons.
Insulting to be said I’m using it as a tool. Every thread about it, there’s multiple comments talking about the voters and using them as a scapegoat. I’m just responding to them. If I’m using it as a tool, so are you. And you are a lot more vocal about it then me.
I am dismissing people continuing to talk about the election when it’s over as if it matters when people are fucking dying.
But you don’t care because American politics.
Seems like you’re dismissing only the people responding to the behavior negatively and not the ones actually doing the behavior. I find it convenient that you are constantly silent on the genocide in general. I only see you commenting when it comes to pointing the finger at scapegoats. It’s easy to notice with the amount you post (not an insult, just an observation, I don’t mind high engagement).
It doesn’t seem like you are arguing in good faith, since you accuse me of something I’m clearly trying to curtail.
Yes it’s annoying when every thread about the genocide has people screaming at the top of their lungs trying to blame voters.
I have more to say on the subject but I was too harsh and got my comment removed so I will leave it at that.
No, I’m dismissing anyone who doesn’t give enough of a shit about Palestinians to bother talking to them.
How often have you done it?
Feeling empathy for a population isn’t contigent on direct communication with them. Pure rhetoric. But to answer your question, I have a good friend who’s Palestinian. He’s been here for many years but it was still brutal to see how it affected him. So yes, I’ve talked to them.
You are also dismissing only the people that don’t align with your beliefs. You are clearly only pushing one side, the one that makes light of the genocide and seeks to divert attention to anyone who isn’t Biden and by extent Israel, and it’s easy to assume why.
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Bro did you see that articicle about the x whistleblower and how elon influenced the election
I hadn’t; any source, by chance (or summarization, if not)?
I don’t see any appropriate backlash to any of his shit so far.
Yep. The only pushback is from the countries he wants to cleanse them into or the people themselves he wants cleansed. It’s self preservation.
The left strongly disapprove, but that’s it enough for a backlash. The leftists think Biden was just as bad and the right and diet-right voters don’t care or are happily on board.
Well at least it’s not genocide!
/s
The “two parties are the same,” “Genocide Joe” people are literally quibbling about that just to maintain their arguments and it’s depressing.
Well after all, if you argue with them, you’re a genocide supporting liberal troll. Sometimes in all caps, even!
I always tell them how many hours a week (until recently, for unrelated issues) I have spent sending emails, making phone calls and even visiting politicians’ offices to beg for them to do something about the genocide and ask them if they have even sent one form email or made one phone call.
The closest I got to anyone saying they did anything of actual note was someone who hilariously told me that they couldn’t tell me what they did because it would ruin their anonymity. As if there would be no possible way to put it in general terms.
I even ask them if they ever have talked to a Palestinian about what they think. But of course not. Because they don’t actually care about genocide, they care about berating people and playing political games on the internet.
Performative outrage is so much easier than working towards real change though!
Fuck these people, really. What did they think would happen with Trump?
They don’t care. They have never cared. This thread makes that abundantly clear.
They’re narcissists. They only care about how they look.
They thought he would pull support for Ukraine and let Russia keep what they’d taken.
After all, that’s what they asked him to do.
Aren’t there fewer gazans being exterminated now than 1 month ago?
Yeah and at this rate, soon enough Israel will completely run out of Gazans to exterminate!
I wholeheartedly agree in the anti-genocidal sentiment, and I’ve personally been engaged in protests against it.
God damn, I mean technically, you’re right.
An awful lot of those people are russian bots. But it’s not like you can say that on pro Palestinian spaces, because any comments pointing out how delusional protest voting is or how much worse things are getting because of trump will get removed for racism.
Hi I voted for Harris and am pro Palestinian, stop repeating the lie that we are all like this.
I wasn’t? I literally just said that pointing out that trump is worse for Palestine will get your comment removed from a lot of places. I said nothing at all about Harris voters. Just that lemmy has a fascist/delusional tankie problem.
What a shock that no one could’ve ever seen coming.
Oh wait:
deleted by creator
ABC is an Australian government funded media
BBC is a British government funded media
CBC is a Canadian government funded media PBS is an American government funded mediaWhat’s your point?
Stay on message, Democrats! Remember, it wasn’t the Democrats fault for losing, it was those loony leftists for going against the approved narrative of the Democratic Party. The Dems aren’t out of touch or negligent, and Bill Mahr is funny and relevant.
God the comments suck on this post
Do you think maybe there can be more than one source of culpability for things in this universe?
I think the problem is so many people trying to politically point score by whitewashing a bunch of Genociders by using the actions of a new bunch of Genociders.
“Yeah, but our guys’ mass murdering of children was all fairies and unicorns shitting rainbows from their arses whilst those other guys’ Genocide is all dark and shit” isn’t the Grand Principled argument the tribalists seem to think it is.
It’s kind of understandable that anybody with enough Principle in their bodies to trump tribalism is a “little” peeved at people excusing any group of willful and eager collaborators in the mass murder of children, be it the previous bunch or the new bunch.
Seems like the problem in this thread is a bunch of people trying to politically point score by not giving a shit that Trump is moving forward with this because they’d rather condemn people who are not in power and may never be in power again.
I see very little condemnation of Trump and a lot of “Genocide Joe would have done the same thing.”
And fuck the Palestinians, they’re just a tool in this from what I can tell from such people. How many “Genocide Joe” people here not bothering to condemn Trump have ever even talked to a Palestinian?
Re-read the posts: plenty of people who criticize Biden are also criticizing Trump.
I can’t speak for others but I personally am not constantly criticizing Trump because their is no lack of criticizing Trump here so it’s not a problem I feel I need to address in my comments, much less do it all the time.
It’s the whitewashing of the actions of Genociders that I feel is a problem so my comments are directed at that, and in this thread so far I’ve only seen the actions of one bunch of Genociders be whitewashed, and that’s the Biden bunch.
If this was 4chan I’m sure there would be plenty of comments whitewashing Trump’s actions that I would feel the need to counter.
You need to re-read my posts because you are still doing what I am saying, not giving a shit about what is going to happen to Palestinians because you’re too busy continuing to argue about an election that was decided months ago.
What have you actually done to try to stop this genocide?
Mainly spreading awareness of what’s going and exposing the flawed logic and lies in pro-Israeli propaganda since the very start and pointing out the hypocrisy of those who empower the Genociders by supporting politicians who knowingly and actively give them military support. (To the point that I’ve actually received e-mails in my native language from a Tel Aviv based organisation inviting me to a “learn about Israel” web course, which is funny 'cause I’ve never published my e-mail address here)
I’m also a member of a small party in the country I live in which is very loudly against the Israeli Occupation and the Israeli Genocide.
I keep on hammering against the whitewashing of the Democrat Genociders because their actions help normalized the support of Genocide and extreme racism in the US - they’re supposed to be an alternative to the likes of Trump, the opposite not the “almost the same but a tiny bit less bad”.
Democrats are supposed to walk towards Less Evil, thus opening up a political gap in the middle that also pulls the Republicans over towards Less Evil, but instead Democrats are walking towards More Evil, effectively making the baseline of American politics be Quite A Lot Of Evil and worsening, and supporting the normalization and even increasing extremism of the Evil in the Republican Party.
This isn’t about the Present, because that war is lost and all that people have left is Resistance (and me not being in US means I can’t be part of that), this is about the Future - if the Democrat leadership comes around to accept that their only chance is to actually be the opposite of Trump in actions, fighting for actual Principles, rather than merely be the slightly dissenting performative voice, then there is hope for improvement otherwise (as indicated by Trumps reelection after what he did last time in office) America is condemned to a cycle of presidents like Trump and worse.
People whitewashing Genocide-support as long as it’s done by Democrats ain’t gona push the Democrat leadership to start moving towards Less Evil.
“Spreading awareness.” So getting on the internet and talking shit. Big fucking deal.
Have you spent even five minutes sending a form email and making a phone call? No, apparently not. You can very easily contact politicians in other countries, but you’d rather just sit on your ass and berate people.
And you are the one whitewashing genocide here. You have not spent two seconds discussing what is going to happen to Palestinians and you clearly don’t care since they’re just pawns in your game.
Explain
I’m not sure what you need explained here. Pretending it’s the Democrats and only the Democrats that caused Harris to lose is silly. Sure, they have culpability. So does every person who loudly and repeatedly said not to vote for “Genocide Joe” and then “Holocaust Harris.” So do people like me for not trying hard enough to keep Trump out of office.
There’s lots of blame to go around, but everyone is going “not me! Not me!”
That’s fine, it’s nice you’re taking responsibility, it shows initiative. All I’m saying, all I’ve ever said, was to stop defending the democrats in this, by persecuting people who voted, or didn’t vote, according to their conscience. The dems should be sharply criticized for their failures. Maybe there’s lots of blame to go around, but there is a higher concentration of blame where there is a higher concentration of power.
Blame actually isn’t worth much to me. But the brow beating, infantalizing, condescending attitude toward working Americans while gate keeping every scrap of power, apparently just to end up losing it to the right, is an absolutely inexcusable yet predictable consequence of deep political corruption. Until you personally start organizing against it, then any blame you try to deflect away from the party by taking it on yourself will be a reflection of your ego, not your willingness to put it on the line and fight for change.
And you don’t even have to be a commie like me, you can be a pragmatist/reformist and I’ll give you shit but at least I’ll respect the struggle. Probably doesn’t mean much to you but it beats defending corruption.
I never defended Democrats. Nor do I think Democrats are even relevant anymore. My whole point in this thread is a bunch of people are arguing over Democrats and Republicans and not giving a shit about Palestinians, just using them as pawns to argue about American politics.
Okay thanks for clarifying I’m in a couple threads having similar arguments and got my wires crossed.
My comment was really directed at many of the other commenters who are defending dems and pointing the blame.
I’m glad you’re working through the problems and it shows a commitment to truth that is lost in most political discourse so thanks for bringing something nicely and distinctly human to the discourse.
If the point you are trying to make is that our spectacular political theatre of divisiveness and trump is actually moving the discourse away from where it should be grounded, that is the fight for the liberation of Palestinians from genocide and decades of oppression, from the actual suffering and struggles, then we agree. Not sure how I would have gotten that from your first comment, but I’m happy to accept that’s what you meant, or whatever your actual intent happened to be.
Someone was telling you this shit was going to happen and there was only one way to even have a chance of preventing it. You decided compromise was for losers and are now reaping the rewards of your ill informed, short sighted decision. Why are you whining so much, you got exactly what you were told you would get.
there was only one way to even have a chance of preventing it
State level electoral reform so people can vote outside the two party system without a spoiler effect
So did you! You got exactly what we told you was going to happen, yet its our fault it happened. Look at this post! This whining is on your side my dude. I just can’t believe you fools didn’t stop with the brow beating after such a catastrophic loss. Couldn’t do one fraction of a second of self reflection. I was not telling people not to vote for the democrat, but I didn’t hide my real feelings either.
A movement to withhold votes against Democrats has been building for years. the uncommitted movement is ideologically closer to liberal democrats than so called tankies, but Dems threw them under the bus, called them Putin influenced for protesting against a genocide in the only way they knew how. I was fighting for Palestinian liberation in different ways, I don’t really get too involved in electoral politics though I’m active politically. Never was I whining. God what projection.
It really demonstrates the two tendencies of liberalism: good conscientious people who are cool and hate injustice, vs. bloodless defenders of private capital who make noises like they care about justice so they can take power and broker influence.
Get a grip, do some actual criticism of your movement, do better for christs sakes. There wouldn’t be nearly as many communists and anarchists becoming radicalized if democrats were even a little effective. They are the only force that has the power to oppose the fascists and criminals in charge of the republicans. and they blew it, time and time again. Stop blaming the people, the fucking lemmy posters for Christ sakes, and start looking at your party,and namely where they get their funding.
this may require you to read and process information instead of just repeating what some 68 year old millionaire said. Which may take some growth on your part, so maybe hydrate and stretch a little first.
So… you’re actually saying that your protest successfully got trump elected- in defense of someone accusing you of helping to get trump elected….
No I’m saying that material reality affects peoples views more than your version where people are dumb babies; and acknowledging that, let alone standing next to us in struggle could have carried Democrats to victory, instead they abandoned even the semblance of ethics and morals other than “Cheeto bad.” Some people, and you may struggle with this because of an apparent lack of empathy or theory of mind, although maybe not, are not able to cash in their ethics and morals for a pat on the back and literally nothing else, from the same people who are resolved to continue the genocide. Maybe you can, but others have more character and compunction.
Hopefully someday you have experiences that stimulate growth as a person.
And like I’m not particularly partial to taking this view of you as some kind of vampire bereft of all reason and conscience. But when you do it to others, don’t get grumpy when someone calls you out on it. If you don’t like the way it feels, and if you think its possible that you might take a contrary position to me because of our roles on either side of this discourse, then think about how when you do it, it affects others.
Fuck me for thinking you should be better than that!
So… I’m having difficulty understanding because of your obvious intellectual superiority, but…
I’m going to need a simple answer here:
Did your protest work, or not?
Because if it did, then it would seem to me- in my humble ignorance, that you enabled a trump victory.
But if it didn’t, then it would seem to be, also in my humble ignorance, that you enabled a trump victory.
Be sure to use small words so that my brain can understand.
My question is answered by your question: did you and the democrats stand with the Palestinians or did you stand with Israel?
The organization you are defending with your bad faith questioning is one where it is impossible to stand with ones own principles against genocide. Democrats could not convincingly demonstrate that they would stand by Palestinians and end this genocide, even after the UN and an avalanche of international bodies, legally and scientifically proved that it was indeed a genocide that was occurring. Even then, there was just an uncomfortable shifting of feet as democrats who had been receiving campaign contributions on the order of millions of dollars over decades, were forced to either stand against that money or genocide.
They chose money, and the people who stood against the fascist oppression of the Palestinians, chose to stay home.
Because you know what didn’t work? Standing with Israel when the time came to support Palestine, and then expecting people to be guilt tripped into turning out to vote for Democrats. To be clear, i never once advocated for staying home on election day, but at least I was able to surmise it by looking at the situation.
You act like I’m putting on an air of intellectual superiority, but my standards for consciousness of the situation are actually quite low. I would ask that someone would learn about and think about the situation leading up to a particular event, which you seem to want to ignore; and I ask that you have a measure of empathy. Your inability to demonstrate either should not be read as my judgement of you, but your own guilty judgement of your own fucked up reasoning that you want to put on to me. Save it for your therapist.
As expected, walls of text without answering a simple yes or no question.
I’m not defending the party, the movement, the history, the people or their choices. I’m pointing out that no one wanted to hold their nose to vote and now we’re all swimming in shit.
Downvote me all you want. No amount of political theory will make the math go away. Every single person who decided to not vote, or to vote for catharsis, was a helping hand pushing Trump’s ass into the oval office.
Yes, the Democrats pissed you off, yes you should have still voted for them.
Its a hell of a situation we are in, but abstracting this one political act away from the movement, the people, their choices, the history behind it all, is the only reason you are able to look at the situation in such a limited way.
I believe you, that you want to get your intentions or beliefs untangled from whatever schemes political and economic elites are cooking. It is a great tragedy that people didn’t vote to keep Trump out. But if you want your individual beliefs to stand on their own and hold water on their own, then you have to extend the same courtesy to conscientious uncommitted voters.
For months people told me I was a bot for daring to suggest Biden was too old to run. Then that view was vindicated too late, and when progressives wanted to get in line behind Kamala, it was made pretty clear that other than uncomfortable noises and “concerns” about the genocide, money and weapons were still going to flow. Do you understand that this lesser evil messaging was doomed to fail? millions of voices on the left who are in no way hoping for another trump term were warning exactly this, and were silenced, not to mention beaten, arrested, kicked out of school or worse for daring to put their bodies on the line for Palestinians?
Maybe ask yourself why the most progressive stripe of voters withheld their vote, while millions of others just didn’t think, maybe wrongly, that it would affect them either way. Was there a conspiracy by Russia and other countries? I mean its been established, I think, that a great deal of this goes on. So let me ask you: in this situation, where democracy is being attacked from without and within, night and day by well funded and well organized forces, do you think that a mere vote every 4 years or so is enough to actually prevent the degeneration of a democracy? Or might it take quite a bit more effort? Second question: have the democrats proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are worth that vote, so that the critical mass of rational and conscientious people in this country would not have grounds to doubt their commitment to restoring democracy and overcoming fascism?
My answer to both questions is no. This does not make me naive or idiotic, but I’m afraid that is how I am made to feel, made to seem, by the mainstream of the Democratic party. And so were hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions of other Americans whose conscience would not allow a vote for genocide.
The oppression of the Palestinian people didn’t begin on oct7, let’s not pretend that Democrats werent culpable before and after. Therefore there is good reason to doubt the dems would have influenced any meaningful change in the conflict
The only political act that was being asked of the millions who didn’t vote was to vote. That’s the only political act that matters in this contact. It’s the lowest possible bar in a democracy. Show up, check a box. I get that it sucks, but this, what we have now, is going to be so much worse.
Just to sum up my point: The system is rigged hard against any kind of progressivism. The left might be able to influence a Democrat, it absolutely will not influence a Republican, and a third party has absolutely zero chance of getting elected.
If third parties want clout, they have to build it from the ground up, and that means money in a capitalist system. Where’s all the third party money that’s going to help defeat the established parties? It doesn’t exist.
Again, I’m not celebrating his reality, I’m only pointing out that it’s always been that way and opting out of having a voice isn’t going to do shit to change it.
Not voting is hurting the people we care about, all for the sake of feeling better about yourself.
A system that restrict democracy to checking a box every 4 years while silencing peaceful opposition calling for peace, is not a democracy it is tyranny. You won’t be able to sell tyranny to me as democracy. And every cycle that the deep political corruption at the heart of the Democrats exposes itself for what it is, more and more people see it for what it is.
They didn’t create these contradictions, neither did you and neither did I. But many people are responsible and benefit directly from the carnage. And your plan to oppose them is to stay dumb and stand in line every 4 years.
I said it elsewhere, but it just shows the divide in the Democrats between the progressives and the establishment. The fact that you’ve resigned to a single unconscionable viewpoint doesn’t mean that other people are stupid for going the opposite way. The Palestinian people have been the victims of liberal pragmatism for 75 years. I know you want to collapse all morality and ethics into a single moment when a ballot is cast, but seriously don’t you think that view is somewhat convenient for the establishment? Is this the society you want to take part in and participate in?
No its not, you dread to do it but once every 2-4 years as a matter of duty. But people who don’t subscribe to your sense of moral duty, no different than the enemy right? Cant you see how self defeating it all is?
Refusing to participate grants you zero benefit, and makes it easier for the system to continue.
This has nothing to do with political viewpoints, this is math. There’s no way in hell you’re going to tear it down from the outside so what’s the plan? Sit there and feel smug that you did nothing while everyone suffers?
Checking the box is the bare minimum, and you couldn’t even do that, because it made you feel icky.
Your protest vote, or non vote (same thing), holds negative value for the people of Palestine.
Well, the truth can sting a little if you’ve just found out you’ve been fooled. The important thing is to grow up and learn from your mistake.
Centrists are suddenly unhappy now that trump is implementing their only policy for them.
