Its a hell of a situation we are in, but abstracting this one political act away from the movement, the people, their choices, the history behind it all, is the only reason you are able to look at the situation in such a limited way.
I believe you, that you want to get your intentions or beliefs untangled from whatever schemes political and economic elites are cooking. It is a great tragedy that people didn’t vote to keep Trump out. But if you want your individual beliefs to stand on their own and hold water on their own, then you have to extend the same courtesy to conscientious uncommitted voters.
For months people told me I was a bot for daring to suggest Biden was too old to run. Then that view was vindicated too late, and when progressives wanted to get in line behind Kamala, it was made pretty clear that other than uncomfortable noises and “concerns” about the genocide, money and weapons were still going to flow. Do you understand that this lesser evil messaging was doomed to fail? millions of voices on the left who are in no way hoping for another trump term were warning exactly this, and were silenced, not to mention beaten, arrested, kicked out of school or worse for daring to put their bodies on the line for Palestinians?
Maybe ask yourself why the most progressive stripe of voters withheld their vote, while millions of others just didn’t think, maybe wrongly, that it would affect them either way. Was there a conspiracy by Russia and other countries? I mean its been established, I think, that a great deal of this goes on. So let me ask you: in this situation, where democracy is being attacked from without and within, night and day by well funded and well organized forces, do you think that a mere vote every 4 years or so is enough to actually prevent the degeneration of a democracy? Or might it take quite a bit more effort? Second question: have the democrats proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are worth that vote, so that the critical mass of rational and conscientious people in this country would not have grounds to doubt their commitment to restoring democracy and overcoming fascism?
My answer to both questions is no. This does not make me naive or idiotic, but I’m afraid that is how I am made to feel, made to seem, by the mainstream of the Democratic party. And so were hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions of other Americans whose conscience would not allow a vote for genocide.
The oppression of the Palestinian people didn’t begin on oct7, let’s not pretend that Democrats werent culpable before and after. Therefore there is good reason to doubt the dems would have influenced any meaningful change in the conflict
The only political act that was being asked of the millions who didn’t vote was to vote. That’s the only political act that matters in this contact. It’s the lowest possible bar in a democracy. Show up, check a box. I get that it sucks, but this, what we have now, is going to be so much worse.
Just to sum up my point: The system is rigged hard against any kind of progressivism. The left might be able to influence a Democrat, it absolutely will not influence a Republican, and a third party has absolutely zero chance of getting elected.
If third parties want clout, they have to build it from the ground up, and that means money in a capitalist system. Where’s all the third party money that’s going to help defeat the established parties? It doesn’t exist.
Again, I’m not celebrating his reality, I’m only pointing out that it’s always been that way and opting out of having a voice isn’t going to do shit to change it.
Not voting is hurting the people we care about, all for the sake of feeling better about yourself.
A system that restrict democracy to checking a box every 4 years while silencing peaceful opposition calling for peace, is not a democracy it is tyranny. You won’t be able to sell tyranny to me as democracy. And every cycle that the deep political corruption at the heart of the Democrats exposes itself for what it is, more and more people see it for what it is.
They didn’t create these contradictions, neither did you and neither did I. But many people are responsible and benefit directly from the carnage. And your plan to oppose them is to stay dumb and stand in line every 4 years.
I said it elsewhere, but it just shows the divide in the Democrats between the progressives and the establishment. The fact that you’ve resigned to a single unconscionable viewpoint doesn’t mean that other people are stupid for going the opposite way. The Palestinian people have been the victims of liberal pragmatism for 75 years. I know you want to collapse all morality and ethics into a single moment when a ballot is cast, but seriously don’t you think that view is somewhat convenient for the establishment? Is this the society you want to take part in and participate in?
No its not, you dread to do it but once every 2-4 years as a matter of duty. But people who don’t subscribe to your sense of moral duty, no different than the enemy right? Cant you see how self defeating it all is?
Refusing to participate grants you zero benefit, and makes it easier for the system to continue.
This has nothing to do with political viewpoints, this is math. There’s no way in hell you’re going to tear it down from the outside so what’s the plan? Sit there and feel smug that you did nothing while everyone suffers?
Checking the box is the bare minimum, and you couldn’t even do that, because it made you feel icky.
Your protest vote, or non vote (same thing), holds negative value for the people of Palestine.
As I said elsewhere, I did vote I have voted and I will continue to vote. So nice strawman. I never discouraged people from voting, but I understand why people didnt. I’m against the browbeating of people for voting their conscience.
Some people don’t know what it means to stand up for what they believe in, since their beliefs appear to be whatever will opportunistically win. Then they condescendingly chide others for risking their own bodies, for having strong beliefs. Those people will betray in the first opportunity, because they only perceive others as a means to get what they themselves want. So frankly, you can shove your pragmatism. Your pragmatism didn’t defeat Trump either, but at least I don’t stand with child murderers and rapists and worse.
I reject your shallow, faulty reasoning.
Please leave me alone.
No one could possibly both vote for a democrat strategically and not be sanctimonious about it, is that it? Says more about you than it does about me buddy
I am not vocal about not voting, I am vocal about the democrats criminal negligence and complicity in atrocities. Never did I say someone shouldn’t vote.
You can’t even make sense of this conversation without making me into a strawman. Just accusing me of lying for no reason. What so I can get one over on the other guy?
Again, it says more about you than it does about me.
Its a hell of a situation we are in, but abstracting this one political act away from the movement, the people, their choices, the history behind it all, is the only reason you are able to look at the situation in such a limited way.
I believe you, that you want to get your intentions or beliefs untangled from whatever schemes political and economic elites are cooking. It is a great tragedy that people didn’t vote to keep Trump out. But if you want your individual beliefs to stand on their own and hold water on their own, then you have to extend the same courtesy to conscientious uncommitted voters.
For months people told me I was a bot for daring to suggest Biden was too old to run. Then that view was vindicated too late, and when progressives wanted to get in line behind Kamala, it was made pretty clear that other than uncomfortable noises and “concerns” about the genocide, money and weapons were still going to flow. Do you understand that this lesser evil messaging was doomed to fail? millions of voices on the left who are in no way hoping for another trump term were warning exactly this, and were silenced, not to mention beaten, arrested, kicked out of school or worse for daring to put their bodies on the line for Palestinians?
Maybe ask yourself why the most progressive stripe of voters withheld their vote, while millions of others just didn’t think, maybe wrongly, that it would affect them either way. Was there a conspiracy by Russia and other countries? I mean its been established, I think, that a great deal of this goes on. So let me ask you: in this situation, where democracy is being attacked from without and within, night and day by well funded and well organized forces, do you think that a mere vote every 4 years or so is enough to actually prevent the degeneration of a democracy? Or might it take quite a bit more effort? Second question: have the democrats proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are worth that vote, so that the critical mass of rational and conscientious people in this country would not have grounds to doubt their commitment to restoring democracy and overcoming fascism?
My answer to both questions is no. This does not make me naive or idiotic, but I’m afraid that is how I am made to feel, made to seem, by the mainstream of the Democratic party. And so were hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions of other Americans whose conscience would not allow a vote for genocide.
The oppression of the Palestinian people didn’t begin on oct7, let’s not pretend that Democrats werent culpable before and after. Therefore there is good reason to doubt the dems would have influenced any meaningful change in the conflict
The only political act that was being asked of the millions who didn’t vote was to vote. That’s the only political act that matters in this contact. It’s the lowest possible bar in a democracy. Show up, check a box. I get that it sucks, but this, what we have now, is going to be so much worse.
Just to sum up my point: The system is rigged hard against any kind of progressivism. The left might be able to influence a Democrat, it absolutely will not influence a Republican, and a third party has absolutely zero chance of getting elected.
If third parties want clout, they have to build it from the ground up, and that means money in a capitalist system. Where’s all the third party money that’s going to help defeat the established parties? It doesn’t exist.
Again, I’m not celebrating his reality, I’m only pointing out that it’s always been that way and opting out of having a voice isn’t going to do shit to change it.
Not voting is hurting the people we care about, all for the sake of feeling better about yourself.
A system that restrict democracy to checking a box every 4 years while silencing peaceful opposition calling for peace, is not a democracy it is tyranny. You won’t be able to sell tyranny to me as democracy. And every cycle that the deep political corruption at the heart of the Democrats exposes itself for what it is, more and more people see it for what it is.
They didn’t create these contradictions, neither did you and neither did I. But many people are responsible and benefit directly from the carnage. And your plan to oppose them is to stay dumb and stand in line every 4 years.
I said it elsewhere, but it just shows the divide in the Democrats between the progressives and the establishment. The fact that you’ve resigned to a single unconscionable viewpoint doesn’t mean that other people are stupid for going the opposite way. The Palestinian people have been the victims of liberal pragmatism for 75 years. I know you want to collapse all morality and ethics into a single moment when a ballot is cast, but seriously don’t you think that view is somewhat convenient for the establishment? Is this the society you want to take part in and participate in?
No its not, you dread to do it but once every 2-4 years as a matter of duty. But people who don’t subscribe to your sense of moral duty, no different than the enemy right? Cant you see how self defeating it all is?
Refusing to participate grants you zero benefit, and makes it easier for the system to continue.
This has nothing to do with political viewpoints, this is math. There’s no way in hell you’re going to tear it down from the outside so what’s the plan? Sit there and feel smug that you did nothing while everyone suffers?
Checking the box is the bare minimum, and you couldn’t even do that, because it made you feel icky.
Your protest vote, or non vote (same thing), holds negative value for the people of Palestine.
As I said elsewhere, I did vote I have voted and I will continue to vote. So nice strawman. I never discouraged people from voting, but I understand why people didnt. I’m against the browbeating of people for voting their conscience.
Some people don’t know what it means to stand up for what they believe in, since their beliefs appear to be whatever will opportunistically win. Then they condescendingly chide others for risking their own bodies, for having strong beliefs. Those people will betray in the first opportunity, because they only perceive others as a means to get what they themselves want. So frankly, you can shove your pragmatism. Your pragmatism didn’t defeat Trump either, but at least I don’t stand with child murderers and rapists and worse.
I reject your shallow, faulty reasoning.
Please leave me alone.
sure you did.
No one could possibly both vote for a democrat strategically and not be sanctimonious about it, is that it? Says more about you than it does about me buddy
Sure they could. Someone so vocal about not doing that? Unlikely.
I am not vocal about not voting, I am vocal about the democrats criminal negligence and complicity in atrocities. Never did I say someone shouldn’t vote.
You can’t even make sense of this conversation without making me into a strawman. Just accusing me of lying for no reason. What so I can get one over on the other guy?
Again, it says more about you than it does about me.