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This quote by TheReturnOfPEB@reddthat.com is a good thing to keep in mind. I’m not going to lock it because it genuinely seems to be helping some people. I’m getting reports though, so remember to be excellent to each other please.
this comment section is a memorial of injured experiences.
tread carefully.
Edit: fixed author’s username.
I think the username ends peb not pep
Also you might want to pin your comment to put it at the top
It is at the top for my instance, it doesn’t work on some clients though. Thanks, I’ll fix his name.
Right :) top is variable by user settings, is it pinned and my client just doesn’t respect pins?
That’s what I’ve heard. It probably respects it if you were a sh.itjust.works instance member, but not if you’re not? That’s from people talking about it last time this came up.
Mine is set to sort oldest first and it comes up top for me, though I don’t see any other indication that it’s pinned… It being there is most important though…
I don’t know what to tell you, the mod tools for Lemmy are pretty minor. All I can do as speak as moderator and then it goes to the top for my instance and I think fellow instance members. All bets are off for other users. There’s no way to actually sticky or pin anything to top that I’m aware of other than to speak as moderator as a top comment.
FYI, I see it pinned as a top comment even from my instance
Also just an fyi that my instance and app display it as pinned (slrpnk and connect). Also my default is to sort by top.
Idk what it means, just figured I’d also chime in with some extra data lol
I also see this pinned on my instance.
For every 50 sensitive men out there, there’s a sociopath using a sensitive man persona to try to gain an advantage with women. Believe that men are sensitive, but verify, look for red flags.
What does this have to do with the thread? It sounds like you’re putting up a “cares about women’s safety” persona in order to gain an advantage with them, probably to murder them and wear their well-moisturized skin as a suit.
My belief is that most women belive they want a sensitive man (after all, that’s the cultural norm), until they actually get one. It’s not super cool IRL unfortunately. Though it’s very rare that women admits this to themselves or others. Usually you can find another believable excuse, that fits with the norm. Abnormal sensitivity often comes with extra baggage.
But there are of course exceptions, and that’s what you should look for if you’re a guy and know you’re on the more sensitive side of the spectrum.
Also don’t fall for any of that “patriarchy” crap that is being spammed here. It’s just a useless concept (or religion). Usually advocated by people with close to zero life experience and a taste for conspiracy theories. And in this context its almost dangerous, because even if it was true, advocates draw the wrong conclusions (like that a less patriarchal society would appreciate sensitive men more). If you want to understand why the world feels injust or that you’ve been fooled, I would start with reading about evolutionary game theory and maybe look at Robert Sapolskys video lectures on human behavior biology on YouTube. Then do some reading on moral realism (and why it’s stupid). If you’re American (sorry) its probably more likely that you are a firm believer in moral realism and that you don’t know much about evolution and biology. Don’t go for Jordan Peterson because he’s just a completely incoherent thinker (or simply put, a quite stupid guy), who’s also into mysticism. Or maybe just read some Peterson and you will hopefully understand. He’s very average, but had good timing I guess.
You know how sometimes people accuse men of unwarranted overconfidence?
Don’t worry they’re definitely not talking about you, bud, keep being you.
Men‘s role in society is to be a strong provider that sacrifices for his family, community, and country from carrying heavy things, manual labor, to giving his life in war.
Lol at your username. That’s some real wishful thinking.
“women’s role in society is to bear and raise children, upkeep the household, and please her husband. From nursing, teaching, cooking, cleaning, to wifely duties.”
See how that sounds?
Sounds like traditional and still widespread expectations.
Men‘sAny member of society’s role is…
I’ve been scrolling the comments on this post for a while (longer than I should) and just want to say it is one of the most refreshing collective displays of thoughtfulness and empathy I have read online in far too long. Even the back-and-forwards where people disagree on details or semantics are still overwhelmingly positive, insightful, and respectable on all sides. Another comment here used a brilliant term “merciless insincerity”, and personally I’ve been leaning in a dangerously cynical direction lately about its prevalence. Although I know I am old & resilient enough to not let it capsize me I despise when so much lowest-common-denominator thinking hardens my shell and wallpapers a layer of apathy over who I really am (the angry-yet-optimistic teenager from the 80s/90s who screamed into the void about the climate-emergency, the corrosion of democracy by short-term vote-winning & fundraising, and - more relevantly - the toxicifying impact men and women have had on society - at interpersonal, familial, regional, national, and international scales - by regurgitating thoughtless archetypes and flagwaving in lieu of questioning reality from a fearless standpoint of “open-minded but critical, optimistic but sceptical, confident but fallibilistic”. Discussions like these are some of the very few bastions of antidote left for that cynicism and apathy. What blows my mind is that it is apparent a nontrivial proportion of you who are young (well, much younger than me) are introspecting and expressing yourselves about the subject better than I ever could. When I see the flood of toxic (and idiotically childish) nonsense almost everywhere else, discussions like these truly help bolster a dangerously scarce resource called “hope for the future”, and reinforces for me why about 99.9℅ of my “social online reading” time is spent on Lemmy lately. Gandhi said “be the change you wish to see in the world”, and it’s worth considering that what you are all writing here is a good example of you doing exactly that (even if you hadn’t realised or intended). It adds up, when groups of people give each other the chance to be truly unafraid (instead of “playing tough” - which merely broadcasts how truly afraid someone really is).
Could use some paragraph markers, but otherwise beautifully well put. Glad this is up top right now. Makes me excited to read the rest of the thread.
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This sort of situation is how I knew my wife was/is a keeper. When I was pushed to the point where my negative emotions got too much, she was there for me. She didn’t shy away, but stepped in to help and support me.
In many of my previous relationships, showing negative emotions was lethal to their feelings. I could be happy, or stoic, but never upset or depressed.
On a side note, I had a chat with a trans friend once, regarding emotions. When they transitioned, the intensity of their emotions didn’t change much. However, their ability to contain them plummeted. Basically, men and women feel emotions similarly. Men are just a lot more able to bottle them up.
I’m trans and, until I started HRT, had very little access to my emotions. I would desperately want to cry, and just would be unable. Or I would know I was supposed to be having some kind of emotional reaction to something, and just…wouldn’t.
Very very soon after getting my hormones straightened out, I discovered that I was having emotions in sympathy with characters on tv or in movies. If I was sad I could actually cry for a bit and process the emotion rather than having to channel it into anger or physicality. It was like living in color instead of black and white, this whole arena of human experience I’d read about but hadn’t ever really felt.
I’ve heard the same from trans guys as well; they didn’t ever feel like their emotions made sense until they got on T.
My now-ex reacted to this, first with concern, then with contempt.
This is very interesting to me.
As a cis male, I do have trouble accessing emotions sometimes.
However movies and music can give me overwhelming emotions. I start crying from the smallest wholesome moments in anime and movies.
There are times in life I wish I could, so I sometimes use music as a tool to trigger the response in myself just so I can get the emotions out and processed.
Art for catharsis. 👍🏻
I’m a cis guy and I also struggle with expressing my emotions, but I think that it’s more of a cultural thing. Like I’m not really “allowed” to cry from watching a TV show and it’s difficult to shake it off even when I’m alone.
I’ve learned to free my emotions a lot more by studying Acting (by, for a few years, doing short acting courses as an adult whilst living in London): it turns out modern acting techniques - the stuff that roughly falls under the Method Acting umbrella - are all about feeling truthfully as if you were indeed that character you’re playing living that specific situation, so essentially I had a pretty much judgment free (in terms of other people judging you) license to let myself go and fully feel and show it (as that “person” which was the character in that situation).
Curiously it also unlocked my empathy (which turns out to be so high I’ll literally yawn from seeing animals yawn) though I’m not sure if my blocking of most of my Empathy until then was due to social expectations on how men are supposed to behave or a childhood self-defense mechanism due to one of my parents being VERY intense and emotionally selfish (it makes sense I would block it merely not to constaly be overwhelmed by somebody else’s rollercoaster of emotions).
All this even though I’m Portuguese and thus grew up in a culture were people are very expressive (compared to what I saw living in both Northern European and Anglo-Saxon countries, so think something like Italians), and all that expressiveness is backed by actual emotion (people really are enthusiastic or angry or saddened by what the other person telling you their story went through), though I would say that the range of emotions men are socially expected to express is limited to mainly positive emotional states or anger-related emotions.
Anyways, just my 2c as I think it’s an unusual point of view and maybe food for thought.
PS: One of the things I learned in Acting is that not only does your body follow your mind but also your mind follows your body (really: if you have any ability for introspection try walking with a confident walk and see how it makes you feel. Then try a downtrodden walk or a fearful walk) which kind dovetails with the whole idea that if you’re not expected to show certain kinds of emotional states you end up not feeling such emotions in day to day (except when you’re overwhelmed by it and it hits you like a ton of bricks).
I had that too. When you’re a cis male adult you’ve had decades of social conditioning telling you that’s not allowed. I’m gay but being born in Spain I was brought up in a traditional macho culture. I’d “pass” except for those with the most finely tuned gaydar, not because I tried hiding it by the time I realised but because I was conditioned to fit in the straight cis male behaviour box.
It took me a few years of unlearning trying to shake it off myself and what helped most, a loving partner who is in tune with his emotions. I have gotten immensely better at understanding and expressing my emotions, verbally or otherwise, and also doing that without channelling them into “proxy” emotions that are acceptable for macho expectations and culture.
There’s a great book called The Tao of Fully Feeling that helped me a ton with this.
For my it wasn’t about expressing them, it was about feeling them at all. Only the very very strongest ones could even crack through.
Of course there was also the fact that my father threatened to beat me for crying “if I didn’t have a reason”, so there are obviously confounding factors, but interventions like therapy, meditation, changing my name, presenting female all the time, etc didn’t have anywhere near as much effect on my access to emotions as a couple of weeks on HRT.
They were all helpful in different ways (sometimes enormously so), but it felt like there was an impedance mismatch between my conscious mind and the rest of my body, and the HRT fixed it.
On a side note, I had a chat with a trans friend once, regarding emotions. When they transitioned, the intensity of their emotions didn’t change much. However, their ability to contain them plummeted
In my experience this isn’t universal. I’m trans myself, and I’ve talked about this with a lot of my trans friends and we’ve all had pretty different experiences with the emotional aspects of transitioning.
Personally, I definitely had a really hard time containing my emotions early transition. They felt so unfamiliar. It felt like I had gained an entirely new set of emotions, and I had to relearn how to cope with them. It didn’t help that I was going through the early stages of puberty-which is already a time of heightened emotions-while dealing with the loss of my entire support network.
Now that I’m more settled into my life as a woman: I’m accustomed to how I experience my emotions, I have a loving support network around me, and I’m in a new job where people treat me with respect; I feel like I have a much firmer handle on my emotions than I ever did pre-transiton.
Able to? Maybe, maybe not. Required to? Definitely.
We can never truly say for sure, but it’s the closest situation that can give a side by side comparison. Either testosterone allows better emotional inhibition, or estrogen reduces it. The main point is that men aren’t emotionless. Our emotions are just as strong as women’s, we are just better able to contain them (for better or worse).
Society then amplifies what is already there.
You’re going off of a sample size of one. Somebody who is transitioning probably has a lot more factors in play than a change in hormone levels.
It was when she started on the hormones. Apparently, it wasn’t surprising to her friends going through the same process.
Unfortunately, I only know 1 trans person well enough to ask them about it. Also, considering it’s a binary (either men feel less, or are better at containing it), I would be surprised if it goes the opposite ways when transitioning.
It’s not a scientific study however, just an interesting and relevant observation.
Puberty makes everyone emotional, regardless of gender. Women are not in constant puberty, and are not constantly overflowing with emotions.
And while some women may have strong support networks that allow them to be more openly emotional, that is not the baseline for all women and it never has been.
Men are not better at containing their emotions either, if they were violent crime and sexual harrassment would be much less of an issue.
This idea that if women aren’t behaving like men about their problems, they must not be having problems- is a really short sighted one.
(All uses of ‘men’ and ‘women’ here are trans inclusive.)
Super socially awkward and anxious in middle school and high school and was also bullied a ton. Girls would ask me out as a joke, and there’s no good response. If you say yes you’re a dumbass for thinking they’re actually interested in you, if you say no you’re gay and should kill yourself. Combined with being an impressionable teen with incredibly negative self esteem on reddit at a time where something along the lines of all men are rapists was a common sentiment, it really honestly fucked me up. I still am not comfortable with romance and intimacy with women to be honest.
Female bullying culture is very cruel.
Children are just cruel in general. I have a giant scar on my stomach from an appendectomy gone very wrong and I used to get made fun of for it in the locker room. They called it my C section scar.
in middle school, a girl in my grade died at summer band camp from a bee sting….
a group of girls called me to tell me she wanted to be her boyfriend. i declined, as it wasn’t the first time i had the joke girlfriend trick played on me…
but i guess the prank was, i was supposed to say yes, then be heartbroken when i found out she was dead…
instead i was heartbroken that anyone would try to do that to anyone.That’s horrifically fucked up. Children really do be out there causing misery for nothing, huh…
oh yes… i was bullied a lot, until i was lucky enough to grow taller than most of them….
i feel really bad for smaller kids who never got to stand up to their bullies….
if you want to be really horrified, read up on Kelaia Turner.
i was thinking lately, that might be why there’s so much school shootings (i hear the uk has a lot of school stabbings)….
but if a particularly mentally ill kid is ganged up on and terrified constantly by a large majority of the school, it seems more likely that they’ll do some extremely antisocial behavior… especially if teachers allow it and even join in a little bit.(i hear the uk has a lot of school stabbings)
It is a lot in a sense that every number above zero is a lot, but really numbers aren’t even comparable.
Overall, in UK from 2012 to 2022 there was reported 36k cases of violence in school. Meanwhile, in US 443,990 teenagers fell victim to school violence in 2022 alonehttps://www.brightpathbh.com/school-violence-and-teen-mental-health-statistics/
a tangential point to go over, but cases of violence compared to victims is different… as in the us, with guns, one case of violence would have a lot more victims that a stabbing…
so it would be better to compare incidents of violence involving a deadly weapon, especially more indiscriminate mass attacks instead of just fights… and then adjust for population….
still probably not comparable but a lot closer….
and, i suspect, the bullying is a lot less over there and the school staff is a lot more involved in stopping it…. but that’s just a guess.
I tried to explain to someone that her all men are trash rhetoric isn’t gonna help anyone do better and the response was that they didn’t care, men should just be better or other men should be responsible for making them better but she sure wasnt. I think she grew out of that.
Im sorry :c
It taught me to stop feeling as a defense mechanism and I never really started again. Hooray for depression 🎉
I’ve shut it all down and can no longer relate to people. Hooray
I’ll add to the trauma dump I suppose
Got married in August 2018, the beginning of the next month my dad died of cancer. Obviously I was mourning him and was in a shitty place, my then wife took that as me not being active enough in our relationship and decided to start cheating on me with multiple guys. Once I found out and called her out on it, and also subsequently kicked her out all of a sudden I was the bad guy. I can’t even imagine the mental gymnastics she was hopping through to think that was justified.
Anyway I’ve moved across the country since then and have met who I believe is my soulmate, and things are amazing with her. Just had to go through sewers to find my green pasture I suppose
Consider yourself lucky you didn’t have kids with her
I decided to end a relationship and marriage, after being together for 13 years. For the first time in years I put myself first and realised that I needed to be out of the relationship. Coming out of this has been very difficult and I’ve been struggling with my mental health since.
I started dating again, and have had two horrible experiences where my feelings were just put aside and it really hurt. Both of which ended up with the relationship ending. It’s like I’m not allowed to have feelings or struggle. 😞
I fear that I am in a situation that may end the same.
If you’re comfortable sharing, was there an epiphany you had that had you bite the bullet and break away?
Honestly, I had been ready to leave for a long time, and I had been caring for them almost 24/7 for years. The main reason I hadn’t left was that I was concerned that they’d end their life. There were many reasons why I didn’t want to be in the relationship anymore, health aside.
There was an attempt to take their own life and I realised I had no emotion and honestly felt like it would have been easier if they didn’t make it. My brother realised something was wrong so came to see me and it all came out. The next day I was trying to just go on like normal but couldn’t, something just snapped. She went to stay with her mum and I had time to think and confirm how I felt. This last part was probably the most important, as it was vital to make sure I didn’t regret the decision.
My advice would be: be honest, say you need time to think, give yourself the time and space, make sure it’s right for you and if so, leave. If they don’t give you the chance to think, then I’d say you have your answer. That’s much easier said than done however.
Similar story here. 21 years and there’s a child involved. Even similar 2 instances of dating that involved not being allowed to express my feelings without risking the relationship. So I did and ended both relationships. It would be nice if there was a choice that isn’t hard. The only choice we seem to have is which hard we want. Both of which isn’t a great ending. I’ve since given up dating altogether. Resigned to the fact that that part of my life is over. Just being a good and present parent, being nice and helpful to everyone in my life. I don’t want to go through life alone but I don’t seem to have a choice in that without being a doormat for someone else, which I refuse to do because if I did, I’d be showing my child to put up with never getting what you need from a relationship and that it’s normal. I can’t do that.
I’m sorry to hear that man. Dating after a long relationship is so hard, but I do hope you come across someone kind who appreciates you for who you are, emotions/feelings and all.
I can’t imagine how hard it must be to go through this with a child too, but you sound like a good father.
this comment section is a memorial of injured experiences.
tread carefully.
Thank you for the warning, kind stranger.
I prefer “monument to all your sins” but hard to disagree.
A few years ago I was struggling with body image and was starting to feel worthless and invisible in my marriage. When I tried expressing these feelings to my wife (really just trying to make an emotional connection) her response was curt and to the point: “You don’t have body image issues. I’m the one struggling with my weight.”
And that was it. I’ve never felt more alone in my life.
🫂
Hey you, you’re attractive. *Hugs
Thx. You legit got a smile out of me.
His hugs can be attractive I guess.
Awwww you should’ve left the comment alone.
I love you!
I think I changed your to you’re. I couldn’t unsee it haha
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Dude, you are looking sharp today. Don’t ever think you can’t look good.
Don’t worry bro, you’ll always have us internet homies!
Pretty sad comment section, hope y’all get through it.
“Why are men in general so emotionally constipated? omg stop crying like a pussy; we just asked a question!” - the patriarchy, oppressing us all
feminism is for everyone. patriarchy is both against and enforced by everyone
Time to get downvoted for having an opinion, here I go:
In my experience, women were the ones constantly telling me I should be positive, I should smile/laugh more, I should not worry or cry or stuff like that (even lovingly telling me to shush), male friends were MUCH more accepting when it came to my emotional problems (both were equally useless tho).
BUT I don’t blame women nor the patriarchy, I blame toxic positivity, as most of us weren’t taught how to deal with emotions and came from toxic/broken homes so forcing a positive take on everything and shunning anything that could weaken that bubble was (and still is) the norm and that is genderless, assholery is a human thing, not a male vs female thing.Genuine question, how would you wish a good friend/partner would react?
Not the person you replied to, but just listening and allowing the person to express themselves and feel heard goes a long way. Getting it all out to someone and not being bottled up inside your own head can be a huge relief, even if the problem itself remains the same.
The instinctual reaction is to want to offer fixes. However, whatever the hearer thought of in five seconds, the sufferer probably also already thought of, and spent days/months/years attempting to make it work and it just didn’t, and now the listening session gets diverted into kind of an argument where the suffered has to justify they have already put in sufficient effort to the fix the listener is pushing that it’s not worth continuing on that road.
You’ll have to be more specific with your question because… if I’m pointing out a toxic positivity attitude and you tell me you don’t know what a more desirable reaction would be, it concerns me… a lot.
OK, be concerned. Now, please tell me how to be better. I am the first to admit that I suck at inter-personal things.
Let’s say you are hanging out with a good friend, it is late in the evening, and they tell you about some fucked up shit happening to them.
“That sucks, man hang in there,” doesn’t quite cut it, as someone else pointed out, no solution you can up with in five minutes is going to help them, and just awkward silence is awkward to both of you.
What do you do?
I do nothing.
I just sit there and listen to them, curse with them and let them blow as much steam as they need, you’d be surprised but most of the time people already know what to do, all they need is to be allowed to embrace whatever they are feeling at the time, to be heard and some empathy.
If you are afraid of an awkward silence then don’t be, sometimes just sitting in silence with someone can go a long way. Sometimes just little questions about it can help them open and show that you care.Not everyone wants help, not everything has a fix, not everything has to be fixed on the spot, forcing someone will only make them double-down or close themselves and that can get worse because they’ll stop looking for help.
Obviously… this is in general what I used to do, everyone is different so each person requires a different approach,
I have a very different friend group. Yeah people still like to project success and their kids whatever at the moment. But even that’s only my local friends. Many of us love to talk shit about the state of the country/world and try to take care of each other through mental and emotional issues.
It’s funny, I generally prefer to talk to a woman professionally, but I’d rather talk to a man friend about specific emotional problems. Of course I’m lucky to have a wife I would talk about most of these things with, but not everyone has a good partner.
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Feminism is explicitly about the social equality of sexes.
Many feminists would not agree with you.
I prefer talking about equality when talking about equality.
Many feminists would not agree with you.
Really? Who? Give me some names and citations.
Just because one claims that their own views align with feminism, doesn’t mean that it is, by definition- feminism. By this, I aim to mean that there will always be bad apples in any group of people.
So how about maybe not judging the whole of a thing on those that claim to align with it- yet show no similarities to it.
I won’t get into the rest of the stuff in this thread, but I’ll disagree with your first point.
Feminism is a word. An English word. And that means it’s definition is driven by common usage not a book. If the common usage shifts to a toxic place, the meaning shifts with it.
If you disagree I’d love to hear your gymnastics around the word invcel, it’s evolution into incel, and then that further extension to femcel (even though the person who coined invcel was a woman).
Feminism has a static definition. And because of this fact- I disagree wholeheartedly with the entirety of your response.
This is not gymnastics. This is empirical truth. And I’m not getting locked up in attempts to define any whatabout attempts to derail the topic.
Sometimes it even meets that aspiration!
Thou I’d love to hear your thoughts on veganism. Suffice it to say you’re wrong this time champ.
Thanks, buddy. A needed statement.
Stawp ghashlighting meh
I don’t know if I want to blame the patriarchy or the toxic masculinity that goes with it, but crap. My ex was so not ok when I cried over the discovery of her affair.
She genuinely thought I was trying to manipulate her. I was “too extremely emotional” over it. We were highschool sweethearts, had a kid, and she always talked about how she was disgusted with her own mother for having an affair. Even to the point where she cut off contact with her mother until they ended that relationship.
“No man goes to bed crying because their wife cheated on them or sends nudes to the same guy 4 years later.”
There were red flags earlier than that. “Why are you crying over a movie?” (I always do at emotional bits). “Man up, no one wants to be with someone expresses sadness.”
What’s worse is that it’s pretty much why I don’t bother going out, or have much motivation to get back into the dating game. The patriarchy and toxic masculinity has ruined being human to me. I don’t want to be friends with people who cover up all their emotions. I don’t want to be friends with guys who are clearly over compensating. Then the girls turn around complain about these men being cruel to them, yet state things like this.
Then you have all the men who have this strange belief that they are owed women, and by behaving like that they get the women they are owed. I won’t take part in that. I will not hurt someone else just to satisfy my desires. If that means I don’t date, I’m much more comfortable being a good person and alone.
I also try to bring it up in conversation, and then people turn around and act like my refusal to participate in patriarchal behavior is anti-social. I had one person point out “technically, you aren’t getting any, even though you want it, making you an incel.” I was so shocked. Its not the fault of women I’m not out getting laid. Its men. It’s the patriarchy. It’s this system set up to isolate me because I have an intense emotional awareness.
I’m still surprised people use the old definition of “incel” considering that the connotations changed to “radical misogynist” or “terrorist” in the eyes of the mainstream nowadays. Personally I wouldn’t be caught dead using the term to describe anyone who simply doesn’t get laid. In 2013 it would be fine but nowadays it’s almost slanderous.
you know her better obviously but sometimes you’re too close to see some things so here goes my opinion: I think she didn’t genuinely think you were trying to manipulate her.
I think she knew it was the appropriate response and she was the bad person so instead of facing that situation and losing the upper hand she thought she could use toxic masculinity to manipulate you to feel bad about yourself as a way to take the heat off of herself.
“you’re overreacting”, “you’re being too emotional” these are very common tactics that men use on women all the time. it’s just that it has the added toxic masculinity aspect when the roles are reversed.
That… Actually makes more sense and a thought I was trying to avoid. I know she said a lot of things where she said things to avoid feeling like the bad guy. Unfortunately for her, cheating on your marriage doesn’t have a defense.
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did you not read anything before or after that quote? we were already talking about a woman doing it. this is me talking about, in response to their comment about whether it’s about toxic masculinity, that it is done the other way all the time as well, and this way has the added layer of toxic masculinity.
now I haven’t added anything to my original comment but this is what you missed.
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The patriarchy is a system, and it’s both men and women who promulgate it
Then it shouldn’t be called “patriarchy”.
that’s not how things work. some prisoners helping the guards doesn’t suddenly put them at the same position in a prison.
I’m glad your ex is an ex. I believe it’s experiences like yours that highlights how sexism goes both ways. My heart goes out to you.
It only goes one way: from people using gender stereotypes to manipulate others to the victims.
The fact that you can manipulate any gender while being any gender logically follows.
My friend, I am so sorry you went through that. I understand it is incredibly hard to get over a betrayal coupled with an attack like that, but I know you can do it. Let yourself breathe and take your time but when you’re ready, there is a whole world of love out there for you.
There are so many people who will cherish the exact part of you that she took for granted. It is easy to go through something like that and come to the conclusion that you should stop feeling. I hope you don’t.
As for people saying you’re an incel… I literally have no advice other than no longer talking to them. There are people in marriages who are “involuntarily celibate”. This could become a rant about the awful nature of even the term “incel” but I think that would be a waste.
I hope you continue to show your strength by refusing to hide your vulnerability.
Thank you. That means a lot. I guess that’s the part I’m most uncomfortable with - why is expressing emotion seen as vulnerability? It’s one of our most effective methods of communication, particularly of empathy.
A lot of people are deathly afraid of self reflection, of thinking about themselves, about their own behavior and how it affects others. Because if you reflect on it, you might come to the conclusion that you have to change something about yourself. And that is hard work, that a lot of people simply don’t want to do (which I think is the reason for many things going wrong in the world). Being able to express emotion is a sign of the ability to self reflect, to be aware of how one feels and being able to communicate that. In a way it makes people aware of their own shortcomings, which is why they want to avoid it.
I think that maybe a different way to look at it would be to ask: why is vulnerability a bad thing? Everyone has emotions. Everyone is impacted and affected by things. To use your situation as an example - your partner betrayed you. You SHOULD be vulnerable to that. The fact that they can’t fathom having that level of vulnerability, to the point that they claimed you were trying to manipulate them, is the problem. That kind of emotional invulnerability is what leads people to do the kinds of things they did.
I truly believe that being vulnerable in front of someone, especially when they have hurt you so much, is strength. Showing someone how much they hurt you is really hard. Find people you can be vulnerable with. They’re out there.
I’m so sorry for all those commenters having sad stories and being told to “man up”. That’s very sad
I might be wrong but I have a feeling that it is a very US influenced problem (so now a very English speaking country problem). Maybe I’m wrong, maybe I’m influenced because it is Internet and there’s plenty of Americans and everything is written in English.
Being born in a French speaking culture, I don’t feel that way. My friends don’t, my non French speaking friends don’t as well. Most men of my generation (millennial) that I have met could express emotions without much problems, and women would not react badly to it, but maybe I’m just lucky.
Of course, there’s always some shitty people, some overly manly jerks or non caring women, but I would say that they represent less than 15% of the population I’ve met in my life (data source: My ass).
So, am I wrong ? Am I influenced by Internet ? How is it for German/Spanish/Portuguese/Italian/Japanese/Whatever cultures ?
And if I’m right, well that sucks. How can we help ?
As a Portuguese (that has also lived in a few other countries in Europe) I would say that it’s more that there is a range of emotions that men can express without that being frowned upon were certain things are still frowned upon if you show them openly (mainly around sadness) though for example openly showing tenderness for your partner or children is expected and even approved (unlike certain other cultures were men are expect to be distant).
Mind you, in some cultures the limits on expression of emotions or selectivity about which emotions you are expected to express is pretty high for both men and women (for example, the Dutch in general tend to refrain from expressing much emotion to strangers) and in some cases there is even such a strong expectation that you react in certain ways that it leads to people in general faking expressions of emotion (the English upper and upper middle classes are pretty big on showing the “appropriate” reaction independently of feeling it).
I would say (from contact with Americans and consuming some American media as well as having lived in England) that the expectations on what emotions people should be expressing are quite different and in England they’re even very much defined by people’s social class (for example, the “English Gentleman” is entirely a façade - all about what you show, not at all about what you think - and occupies the same place in terms of male behaviour expectations for traditional old-money upper class English men as the bossy slightly-angry assertive go-gotter seems to occupy in the US).
So far I generally have seen a tendency for frowning upon grown up men expressing sadness for themselves (though in some countries, not for expressing sadness in empathy with others and their pain, especially if they’re close family) and have also noticed equivalent expectations on the expression of emotion by women (for example, it seems to me that middle and upper class English women have a massive weight of social expectations on them in terms of what they’re expect to show to others - including the emotions they express - in lots of situations, and a lot of it is about reacting with the “appropriate” emotion in some situations even if they don’t feel it)
I don’t think the stigmatisation of men showing emotions is exclusively Anglophone culture. I live in Ireland and there isn’t really a stigma of men showing emotions because of public awareness campaign about mental health for both men and women. But like you said, I’ve met couple of overly manly men jerks and uncaring women, but they’re the ones not worth your time and in tiny minority.
In any case, some cultures have antiquated machismo mindset which is sporadic across the world.
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I am from Spain. When I open to my ex when we were in the process of end our relationship she told me to stop to victimize myself. I think that the relationship started to fell down when I started to be myself in front of her (expressed doubts, weakness, expressing enjoy for things…).
I dont think it is very US influenced problem.
Yeah nobody has ever accused Spain Italy japan India china Pakistan Afghanistan Iran Iraq Egypt…of behaving similarly, just the commonwealth and the Yankees. You’ve cracked the code.
