- cross-posted to:
- donoperinfo@infosec.pub
- cross-posted to:
- donoperinfo@infosec.pub
IDF: Whoops, tee hee.
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Well they’re still blowing up kids with these things so idk if it’s the most brilliant targeting technique
Compared to dumping white phosphorus over hospitals and refugee camps, killing 2 (?) children during an attack that targeted hundreds/thousands is many orders of magnitude more precise. I hate dead innocents as much as anyone, but you gotta admit the pagers were effective and included way less collateral damage than the methods Isreal has employed in recent history.
The point of the post isn’t to praise the pagers attack. It’s to point out that Isreal is capable of causing less collateral damage in Gaza but chooses not to.
but you gotta admit the pagers were effective and included way less collateral damage than the methods Isreal has employed in recent history.
Do you admit that mass gas chambers are an effective way to kill people ?
So much nuance, wow
Yes. A very large part of what made the holocaust so terrible was that it was very effective at killing people.
If my goal was to kill exclusively enemy combatants and leave all civilians alone, it would be pretty effective to round them up and gas them, yes. I’d rather do that than indiscriminate fire.
Combatants tend to violently fight back, when you try to round them up. They also tend to hide among civilians in case of terrorist militia like Hezbollah.
…are you implying that mass gas chambers aren’t an effective way to kill people?
Do you admit that mass gas chambers are an effective way to kill people ?
so is climate change???
Fucking weird comment.
but you gotta admit the pagers were effective and included way less collateral damage than the methods Isreal has employed in recent history.
Yeah. No I don’t.
It’s to point out that Isreal is capable of causing less collateral damage in Gaza but chooses not to.
That comes down to how often Hamas orders things that can reasonably have small bombs put inside them on a large scale and that Hamas are expected to have on their person’s most of the time, how secure their supply lines are, how paranoid they are about looking for that kind of thing, that sort of thing. It involves a lot more moving parts and rare opportunities than just dropping some bombs.
you do not, under any circumstances, “gotta hand it to them”
It’s an Obama type technique. Sure, you might blow up a few innocents, but the rate of eliminated enemies vs killed innocents is better than in traditional warfare, so a numbers guy would always go for that one.
Leaked official documents show that that wasn’t really the case as the public was led to believe
Quotes
The White House and Pentagon boast that the targeted killing program is precise and that civilian deaths are minimal. However, documents detailing a special operations campaign in northeastern Afghanistan, Operation Haymaker, show that between January 2012 and February 2013, U.S. special operations airstrikes killed more than 200 people. Of those, only 35 were the intended targets. During one five-month period of the operation, according to the documents, nearly 90 percent of the people killed in airstrikes were not the intended targets. In Yemen and Somalia, where the U.S. has far more limited intelligence capabilities to confirm the people killed are the intended targets, the equivalent ratios may well be much worse.
The documents show that the military designated people it killed in targeted strikes as EKIA — “enemy killed in action” — even if they were not the intended targets of the strike. Unless evidence posthumously emerged to prove the males killed were not terrorists or “unlawful enemy combatants,” EKIA remained their designation, according to the source. That process, he said, “is insane. But we’ve made ourselves comfortable with that. The intelligence community, JSOC, the CIA, and everybody that helps support and prop up these programs, they’re comfortable with that idea.”
The source described official U.S. government statements minimizing the number of civilian casualties inflicted by drone strikes as “exaggerating at best, if not outright lies.”
Its accepting Israeli propaganda to say that this was a precision strike. This is like using cluster munitions.
Whenever Israel comes up with an idea for an assassination they do it because they can. Its a force of habit for them.
When your goal is genocide, a kill is a kill
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i think they killed like, 12 people, and injured somewhere between 1-2 thousand more, probably some civilians in there, but these are military pagers to my knowledge so it’d be weird for it to hurt a bunch of random people, but it’s possible.
if you include the radio attack i think it’s like another 40 dead, and like 500 injured? Don’t quote me on it.
Hezbollah was using commercial grade pagers because they’re a militia. The purpose of pagers are to contact them when their off duty. Many of these pagers blew up in homes, grocery stores, and other public places. Many civilians were killed and most people injured were bystanders.
from what i can recall, and from the stats i’ve seen, these “explosions” seem more like “really bad pocket fires” more than anything to me, i could see it injuring people. Maybe two or three standing immediately nearby other people.
But considering this attack has only like 12 confirmed dead civilians or something, “many” seems a little excessive. I could see a few hundred getting injured though. Possibly a few cars/homes burning down. That might cause a few more.
ok so, did a bit of a check here, 12 civilians died. That’s where that number came from. 40 people died total, i think. At least that’s what wikipedia tells me. I don’t think it ever mentions how many civilians were injured directly, but assuming it follows the deaths, it’s somewhere between probably 500 and 1000 i would guess.
from what i can recall, and from the stats i’ve seen,
From what you can recall? I’m sorry, but I watched some of those videos, and I will not forget them. I cannot imagine what it must have been like to just be shopping in a supermarket when the person next to you has their legs suddenly blown off 3 feet from you.
It’s terrorism, plain and simple.
only 12 civilians
Yeah dude. “Only.”’ You’re right though, I guess Israel really has raised the bar when it comes to indiscriminate murder of civilians. Those are rookie numbers.
Yeah dude. “Only.”’ You’re right though, I guess Israel really has raised the bar when it comes to indiscriminate murder of civilians. Those are rookie numbers.
When your enemy disperses themselves among the civilian population?
This killed way less civilians than a traditional bombing that would have got the same Hezbollah fighters would have.
It’s funny how Israel made it a “normal” thing, to use firearms and explosives around civilians for the purpose of getting rid of, what they call, bad guys.
Imagine mass-shooting in a public school where a kid tries to hunt down other kids who bullied him for the past few years. Oh wait…
It’s funny how Israel made it a “normal” thing, to use firearms and explosives around civilians for the purpose of getting rid of, what they call, bad guys.
i don’t think they did normalize it though, russia has been indiscriminately hitting civilian places with artillery shells since the beginning of the invasion.
the soviet union has an even more aggressive history of this, scorched earth policies and such, which are almost definitely very old.
Imagine mass-shooting in a public school where a kid tries to hunt down other kids who bullied him for the past few years. Oh wait…
yet another example, except i don’t even have to make the point myself!
in fact, i would argue the concept of minimizing human losses in war is a relatively recent advancement in social theory. That hasn’t exactly been a regular consideration throughout most of history, afaik.
When your enemy disperses themselves among the civilian population?
Obviously, bomb the grocery stores and the shopping malls, then blame the people you were targeting for the collateral murder.
FFS, I’m old enough to remember when Obama drone striking a teenage boy was considered at least mildly controversial for liberals. Now cluster bombing a flea market is the new gold standard for Ethical Warfare.
Now cluster bombing a flea market is the new gold standard for Ethical Warfare.
so technically, and semantically, it’s not cluster bombing, it’s a highly distributed form of micro bombing. Similar to the idea of “incendiary explosive laden bats” in ww2, and various other crackhead ideas the US military cooked up.
From what you can recall? I’m sorry, but I watched some of those videos, and I will not forget them. I cannot imagine what it must have been like to just be shopping in a supermarket when the person next to you has their legs suddenly blown off 3 feet from you.
this is relatively recent, and i barely care about the IP conflict at large, let alone some millitia in fucking lebanon. All i know is that pagers fucking exploded lmao.
As for the videos, i haven’t watched them, for what i feel like should be pretty obvious reasons. I don’t just watch gore content for fun or anything. I’m not a military analyst or claiming to be one lol. I’m just some dude on the internet who thinks exploding pagers is a rather odd way to go about things, although theoretically practical (as seen by the fact that they did it)
It’s terrorism, plain and simple.
maybe, again i know nothing about hezbollah, less about their goals, and even less about what their role in this conflict has been, other than a relatively minor altercation in some of the recent events.
Yeah dude. “Only.”’ You’re right though, I guess Israel really has raised the bar when it comes to indiscriminate murder of civilians. Those are rookie numbers.
how would you prefer i format it lmao? It’s the fucking english language, it’s semantically correct and provides all the needed context, 12 civilians died in this attack, that’s it. No more, no less, plain and simple. Especially compared to the sheer amounts of injured people, presumably including a lot of civilians, this would be EVEN more appropriate.
Also, there have been single mass shootings that have killed more people. There have most certainly been thousands of accidents (think infra related, cars, trains, etc) that have killed more people, and almost definitely, many many more individual accidental deaths.
12 people is not a whole lot in the total grand scheme of how many people die for reasons that shouldn’t really happen in the first place, it’s a lot of people that die every year. Also yeah wouldn’t these literally be rookie numbers? Seems a bit redundant to me.
this is relatively recent, and i barely care about the IP conflict at large, let alone some millitia in fucking lebanon. All i know is that pagers fucking exploded lmao.
why are you deciding to weigh in on a topic that you’re not invested in and don’t even claim to know anything about?
i find it a relatively good way to find information on these topics, as well as to gather what the common public sentiment of these things are.
Obviously i know a little bit about the attack, but that’s it.
This says 37 dead, of whom Hezbollah have stated 31 were their fighters.
Hezbollah is a political party with 18 parliamentary seats and thousands of public service workers on their payroll.
Saying these were “fighters” is akin to bombing an UNRWA center and claiming you killed 31 Hamas Terrorists.
so then why did they have pagers? I thought the pagers were specifically for millitant orders, or is the whole political party communicating in private via one way pagers?
i feel like if this were public service, this would be in confidence, in a building for example, rather than like this.
so then why did they have pagers?
To receive messages through an underdeveloped telecommunications infrastructure.
i feel like if this were public service, this would be in confidence
Well, if you feel that way, I guess the mass murder was fine.
It’s underdeveloped because a terrorist organization fought a war to control the telecommunications system so they could leverage it more effectively for more terrorism.
To receive messages through an underdeveloped telecommunications infrastructure.
obviously. It seems more akin to hamas than like, the green party in the US for example though. I wouldn’t be surprised if the primary purpose of the pagers was for military communications. I would expect any sort of political meetings to be done through a scheduled period, i could see notifications going out for these things. But that’s about it.
also, from what i’ve heard, they had phones previously, and recently got rid of them for the usage of these pagers, since the phones were probably bugged, with israeli intelligence anyway.
Well, if you feel that way, I guess the mass murder was fine.
also i’m not sure this semantically counts as a “mass murder” usually those are done directly by an individual, on a group of people immediately in front of them. Maybe it could apply to this, but that seems like a stretch, especially considering this killed like 50 people total, which is a lot, but considering the amount of injuries and spicy pagers, that’s not very effective.
Would the US pullout of afghan that killed like 13 members of the military also count as mass murder? That’s more than a few, and probably more collective than this event.
sounds about right with what i’ve heard from other places.
these are military pagers
They were a shipment for general consumption that went to a dealer near the Iranian embassy.
The target was the Iranian ambassador to Lebanon, and virtually everyone else was just collateral damage.
They were a shipment for general consumption that went to a dealer near the Iranian embassy.
yeah, that’s generally how products work. Even in the US military the government just walks up to a company and goes "can you make this? And if they say yes they pay them money, or times of war just go “hey i need you to make this”
the only difference here is that it’s not quite a formally established military, so it’s using off the shelf components and products, which is pretty common for these smaller groups.
although depending on the dealer, that dealer may have been the source of intrusion, so there’s that.
The target was the Iranian ambassador to Lebanon, and virtually everyone else was just collateral damage.
targeting one specific guy through the most broad means possible seems, weird. I doubt this was a highly specific attack. It would be a very, very odd way to do it, but then again this conflict has been nothing but odd, so i can’t really put it past them lol.
Regardless, i doubt they solely intended to target that one guy. While everyone else is technically collateral, it’s probably considered to be beneficial to the cause. At least by israel.
targeting one specific guy through the most broad means possible seems, weird.
Not that weird, in the history of espionage. As another example, the CIA used a vaccine drive in Pakistan to target Osama bin Laden’s hideout.
Regardless, i doubt they solely intended to target that one guy.
When your government believes neighboring ethnicities are “bug people” who need to be exterminated, collateral damage is viewed as a perk.
Not that weird, in the history of espionage. As another example, the CIA used a vaccine drive in Pakistan to target Osama bin Laden’s hideout.
“The program was ultimately unsuccessful. It led to the arrest of a participating physician, Shakil Afridi, and was widely ridiculed as undermining public health.”
hmm. Also it seems this was to check DNA from blood samples. So not really a good comparison here.
When your government believes neighboring ethnicities are “bug people” who need to be exterminated, collateral damage is viewed as a perk.
i mean that’s a potential reason, but these are also pagers meant for military communications purposes right? Why wouldn’t you want to target military personnel if you’re already gunning for one person. Besides these are probably more dangerous left unexploded than what currently happened. Imagine what would happen in 20 years when these make their way onto the second hand markets. You could very well accidentally kill innocent people then. You can still do it now, but since they’ve presumably all been deactivated, it’s probably not a huge concern.
There are definitely concerns over war crimes and shit, but unfortunately i’m not the ICC or ICJ so i can’t comment on that with authority.
Last I saw was 37 dead to over 3000 injuries
yeah that’s what wikipedia is saying. I’m unsure if this includes the radio attacks also though.
No, it’s not. This was a very tactical way of striking an enemy that hides behind women and children.
This was a very tactical
Flinging a hand grenade into a crowd several thousand times over
But it’s okay because the crowd was full of Arabs aka Terrorists
So would Netanyahu also be considered as hiding behind women and children? He’s out in public, traveling and lives in Tel Aviv.
It took them years to prepare that operation. It was against Hezbollah, not Hamas, because they saw them as the bigger threat.
The war in Gazah is barbaric, but the sensible immediate alternative would have been a very targeted operation to find and rescue the hostages, not something like this.
The idf keep killing their hostages in what seem like very purposeful attempts to do so.
You don’t make an omelet without cracking a fews eggs
Maybe they should have chose to make something other than an omelette then…
less genocide is not an option at this time…
Please tell me this is a joke.
Some Israelis have to die to save other israelis but that’s just the side show.
The real event is the genocide against the Palestinian peoples
And it required Hezbollah to have no concept of logistic security. Maybe Hamas is not as amateurish as Hezbollah in that regard.
Historically Hamas has been the amateurs and Hezbollah the pros. Hezbollah has actual victories against the IDF. Hamas’ military success last October was completely unprecedented. Its generally believed that Hezbollah trained Hamas into the fighting force it is now. And since Iran trained Hezbollah you get people claiming Hamas is an Iranian puppet.
There is no accident.
But how would they arbitrarily punish everyone without carpet bombing? It’s not like everyone has a pager.
If you pull the thread enough there won’t be any sweatshirt left. Chill bro.
Watch me unravel, I’ll soon be naked
Mossad: “Making 40,000 pagers full of C4 and then convincing everyone in Gaza that they’re hip in 2024 is not profitable! What are we, Apple?”
Also Mossad: “But what about Lebanon?”
30 points - 1 day ago.
What happened to this site? Do people think this shit is funny?
Terrorism is bad and we should condemn it. Unless it’s done by the United States in which case we should call it “anti -communism or defending democracy”. Or if it’s done by Israel we can call it “self-defense”.
Whatever Israel is doing can just be added to the United States. In the end, Israel is just the guard dog “defending democracy” in the Middle East. A somewhat rabid guard dog, but still owned and fed by the US.
Is lemmy having trouble telling the difference between Hamas and Hezbollah now?
No? This is implying that Israel has had the technology to precisely target people for months but chooses to destroy a whole region instead went it came to Palestine.
Your comment implies they had a method like this one to attack Hamas. Source?
I mean they have the method and the will to use it, that’s all I’m saying. Why couldn’t they intercept the phones and other devices used by Hamas leaders the same way?
I mean they have the method and the will to use it, that’s all I’m saying.
The method may not have been applicable for some reason. Shooting people in the head is a method but unless they line up for you away from everyone who’s not Hamas, that’s not a realistic method to employ.
Agreed! It’s SAFER to just Bomb Orphanages and Schools to ENSURE those Hamas Kids die instead of using your Military Knowledge you Obviously have to find a Way to target ONLY Hamas!
for some reason
Oh ok, super convincing argument. I refer to my previous response regarding the amount of control Israel exerts on Gaza. The suggestion that they could not do something similar there is absurd.
Oops, you missed this part (I’m sure it was an accident)
may not have been applicable for some reason
The comments I’m replying to are absolutely sure what Israel could have done. Mine make it clear I don’t know what Israel knows.
The burden of proof is on those who seem to think they just need whatever information is on the public internet to know what would or wouldn’t work against various targets.
Consider dialing back the confidence seeing as no one here knows shit about what intel any groups involved has.
That’s not what they said.
What technology are they referring to then?
So they can do it to a sovereign nation, but they cannot do it to the completely oppressed population living in territories that they have complete control over, including every person and item that enters and exits? OK.
Do you just not know what the reality in Gaza is like? Do you not understand the level of control that Israel has exerted on those people for the past 8+ decades?
There is a reason that nobody can get humanitarian aide to them.
to be clear, you can’t directly target an individual, you can maybe potentially target a single individual.
This is also not to mention the cost and accessibility of doing something like this at scale. It’s theorized they either got into the factories, or somehow got through the shipment and intercepted it to do this operation.
It’s possible they acted as a middleman but that would be really really hard to do at scale like this.
And even if they did this in palestine, it would only work once.
You don’t need to speculate or theorize; they say exactly how they did it. I cut to the exact part of the video where it is succinctly explained.
You’ll also notice that, according to Ben/according to Israel/according to Hezbollah… they advertised that they were going to stop using phones & switch to pagers. In July. So people going on about “they could have done this all along” are wrong. It’s been since sometime in July. This July. Which makes this a very fast & even more effective military operation.
Yes, the shell company was set up 1.5 years ago. Date of sale, idk. But common sense: you need to sell your enemy the goods…and you need to know with relative certainty that the hardware is actively in use. So: since July.
oh good, ben shaprio, well known political hack. So basically TL;DR is that israel setup a shell company, selling tampered pagers and radios to hezbollah?
Seems about right.
The cost? You mean these bombs are more expensive that the weapons used to level Gaza? The ones they only get because other countries sell them?
i would assume on a unit level cost, these pagers are probably cheaper, as evidenced by recent Ukrainian advances, however the cost of actually getting these units in the hands of the people that need them is going to slowly approach infinity depending on how aggressively you wish to do it.
Also, other countries are allowed to sell military equipment, there’s nothing innately illegal with that. Although the people of those countries may not like it, they do generally have the rights to protest it however.
We know people in Palestine have still have access to phones and Internet. I’m sure if Israel wanted, they could sneak new phones in the region. They literally control the whole of Palestine.
i mean sure, but making phones explode is a much harder task than making pagers explode, unless Palestinians use almost exclusively flip phones. Which i assume they dont.
there’s just not very much room inside a modern phone, neither is there a good way to control the actual explodey bit. Unless you stuffed an entirely separate mechanism inside of it. To my knowledge phones don’t exactly ship with GPIO pins on them. I guess you could probably jank it like ukraine is doing, but idk how well that would work.
Why would it only work once? It literally just worked twice in Lebanon. Lebanon is a sovereign nation that is not completely under the oppressive rule of a colonial occupier like Gaza is.
Israel controls everything and everyone that enters and exits Gaza. If they can do it in Lebanon, they can do it in Gaza.
both of these instances are highly related, and once it happens once, you can bet your ass hezbollah is going to inspect each and every piece of equipment they own. Or at least randomly inspect samples in the hopes of heavily deterring it.
Unless this is literally impossible to notice, which i highly doubt, this most seems like lack of competence by hezbollah itself, although in their defense, pagers generally aren’t built with explosives, so…
Also i meant specifically with hezbollah, it could theoretically happen somewhere else, but anybody in gaza does still know about this now, so they’re also 100% checking for this stuff as well.
no i think they’re talking about it cuz its israel
I forgot every method works the same against every target.
ok?
“we have infiltrate the supply chain of communication devices order by Hizbollah what should we do”
- “put GPS tracker so we know where they are”
- “we can listen to all their plans and communication”
- “put a bomb inside …”
I am fully against this booby trapping war crime regime but the problem with your first options is that pagers don’t transmit like phones do. That means there would be no way to remotely aquire the GPS or other saved data undetected.
If you can plant an explosive in there you can plant a transmitter
My point was that a transmitter would be easily detectable.
But an explosive charge wouldn’t? Don’t we literally have dogs that can smell explosives?
to be fair, a gps tracker probably wouldn’t be very useful. You wouldn’t even know which pager is held by who. It would just tell you where people “probably are generally” which you probably already know.
you could intercept communications, but they’re probably already doing that. doing it at a pager level would be weird, you should be doing it from a transmission level. But i don’t know how pagers work so don’t quote me on that.
you could put a bomb inside of it. That’s an option…
Message is unencrypted when it hits the beeper?
the real problem is assuring the chain of custody through the owner of the pager itself.
It could be in the hands of “mr bob” for example, but maybe mr bob left it at his home, or gave it to a friend to hold onto for a while, or maybe two people ended up swapping pagers accidentally, there’s no trivial way to know the immediate distribution of pagers either, so you should probably assume it’s random, as distributing them alphabetically is probably unlikely. Although it is technically possible.
I just don’t really know of a good way of specifically targeting a single pager with the intent of actually making the one you need to go off. to go off, the obvious problem if you fuck up, is that within a few hours, everybody knows you fucked up. All of those pagers are now going to be gone.
Its baffling for sure, would be nice to know what was gained from the attacks.
yeah, i would be curious to know how much of a success this was, and what the intent was. I assume it was primarily to create paranoia within hezbollah specifically, and i imagine it was quite successful.
Anything past that and idk, seems unlikely.
Generally yes, I think for this model of pager, that is the case. I think pagers operate on some oldass unencrypted 80’s era protocol where a station just transmits the message freely on all waves until the pager comes into range and accepts it. You could’ve probably triggered this bombing with a big enough antenna inside of israel broadcasting the message. You can read as much on the wikipedia page.
Hamas != Hisbollah
But I start to wonder if they Knew about the planed attacks and let them happen to start this massacre.
It feels like the all seeing eye of Mossad was ignored on purpose. I hope Netanjahus Name will be branded for ever. He deserves no good mention in History of humanity.
On the other side… humanity faces the biggest historic event ever and no one cares (climate change)
Hamas != Hisbollah
And they also don’t use pagers, or cell phones, or…?
I think you imply the wrong thing here. of course they probably do, but what is the core of your statement?
Mine was:
Netanjahu (Not all of Israel and definitely not all Jews) wants this genocide. He needs it for his own survival, to a point where he gladly accepted the rape-murder of Festival crowd… not any festival, a Hippie-Goa-Festival full of people who would never vote conservative, so a scapegoat the conservatives gladly gave.
Conservatives globally are such a vomit inducing Subgenre of human scum. Hamas and Hisbollah ARE conservatives too… the liberal-green-peace-people have no representation in this world filled with hatred. Quite the opposite, they are vilified and killed.
Ah I see now, I misread what you were trying to communicate.
Sry. I try me best. =∆
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Just wait the carpet bombing will arrive sooner or later.
I mean, not every individual has a pager on them necessarily. Not that it’s excused either way
Way to completely miss the point. Nobody is suggesting they use pagers in Gaza.
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Whoa. Hey guys. New war crime just dropped.
