I love watching this strawman over and over.
Of course Biden is better than Trump. He should still stop supporting genocide.
As far as I know, the Oval Office doesn’t have start/stop genocide button, or control inflation lever for that matter.
If it’s not going to be Biden, then it will be someone else. Either a Republican or a Democrat.
Even someone who earlier looked promising, eg Fetterman is a staunch Israel supporter.
Because the problem is systematic. You can’t just uproot the US-Israel nexus that’s deeply entrenched in the US politics.
the Oval Office doesn’t have start/stop genocide button
True, but it DOES have the option to stop supplying bombs that they know for a fact are being used to commit that genocide.
Your “either they can push a magic button or they’re doing all they can” dichotomy isn’t clever. It shows that you’re being either disingenuous, willfully ignorant or just extremely obtuse.
Because the problem is systematic
Yes, Israel is systematically wiping out the population of Gaza and the Biden White House is using the levers of the system to help them do it. That’s not an argument for not telling them to stop.
You can’t just uproot the US-Israel nexus that’s deeply entrenched in the US politics
You can, in fact. It worked with Apartheid South Africa, which the US also kept supporting way beyond the point that most other countries stopped, and it’ll work with THIS apartheid regime too.
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There’s no Palestinian Mandela. Just because Israel is also an apartheid state doesn’t mean that it’s identical to South Africa at the time.
Also, that wasn’t an analogy, it was another historical example of how you don’t end apartheid by supporting it.
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It has a stop paying for genocide button.
It has a stop vetoing UN resolutions button.
It has an impose sanctions button and a freeze assets button.
It has a pull their warships out button.
It has dozens of make life really uncomfortable for Israel if it doesn’t fucking stop committing genocide buttons.
But at the very least it could stop actively helping them commit genocide.
And what does that do?
Gives ammo to GOP and their allies to target Biden and attract fence-sitters and unaware.
These things don’t happen in a vacuum.
Biden isn’t rubbing his hands with glee and laughing maniacally.
Do you honestly think these options weren’t considered over the last six months?
And what does that do?
Gives ammo to GOP and their allies to target Biden and attract fence-sitters and unaware.
On the contrary. The majority of the population doesn’t approve of supporting genocide, especially Democrats and prospective Dem voters further left.
The status quo of supporting the genocide isn’t winning over anyone who would vote Republican if they stopped. It’s alienating millions of crucial voters who won’t vote at all if they DON’T stop.
We can easily agree that not voting is a bad idea that is likely to contribute to the risk of mango Mussolini winning.
Given that, we should be able to also agree that it’s a bad idea to knowingly keep doing something morally and ethically reprehensible that is causing people to do just that.
And what does that do?
Makes it harder for Netanyahu to continue committing genocide.
Gives ammo to GOP and their allies to target Biden and attract fence-sitters and unaware.
We shouldn’t keep supporting genocide just because you’re scared of what the GOP might do. That’s a shitty reason for anything, and it’s disgusting cowardice in this context.
Gives ammo to GOP and their allies to target Biden and attract fence-sitters and unaware.
Should we also not support healthcare, trans rights, women’s rights, work reform , tax reform, climate change laws and all the other things they get angry at? The road to fascism is paved with political convenience.
I’m worried that’ll be their next strategy considering their pivot strong right on immigration
“Oh, I’m so sorry, I’d love to stop the genocide, but think of the optics! It would be soooooooo optically bad if we stopped the genocide! It could make the fence sitters vote for trump! We all know the fence sitters love genocide!”
They did use the stop vetoing resolutions button. Not much but it’s not nothing.
Sending their warships would mean Israel would try calling their bluff and force USA to commit an act of war to stop them, which would cause absolutely chaos in the region. They probably should start with sanctions though.
Biden’s biggest problem here is he’s so focused on backrooms negotiations, that he’s not using some of the options that could increase public pressure, and all other people see is old treaties continuing with very slow changes and seeing the continued actions of the other party who doesn’t really want to negotiate.
I mean withdraw their ships already in the area, replace that layer of defense with, oh I dunno, thoughts and prayers maybe.
They also claimed that the resolution is non-binding, which is contrary to stated international law.
As far as I know, the Oval Office doesn’t have start/stop genocide button
I didn’t say “stop genocide”. I said “stop supporting genocide.”
As far as I know, the Oval Office doesn’t have start/stop genocide button, or control inflation lever for that matter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_2023_Israel–Hamas_war
They indeed have the stop button but it’s not the one they are pressing.
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The Republican ship is sinking and a void will be opening for the next populist to unite the two ends of the horseshoe (extreme right and extreme left).
Thanks for the heads up, Nostradamus.
Not sure where you got the implication from that he shouldn’t stop supporting genocide?
Right here on lemmy. Try saying that Biden should stop supporting genocide here on lemmy a few times. You’ll get plenty of people acting like you’re both-sidesing for Trump.
Only if you add in a splash of “so I’m not voting for him”.
No one is shouting down people for just saying Biden should stop supporting genocide.
I can tell you with 100% certainty that this is not true
I can tell you with 100% certainty that it is.
Wow, that was easy!
Someone posts news about Biden walking back on his sanctions on settlers, and this comment appears. Edit, doesn’t work for me, maybe this link to my reply will
Another perfect example and another
Someone makes a meme about Biden jeopardizing his chances and gets this response.
None of these people said they would vote trump. If you look out for it you will see this quite often. Unfortunately a couple of recent threads I was involved in with other examples have since been deleted.
I can’t read some of those without creating an account, so I’ll take your word for it.
But from the ones I can see, I don’t see anyone acting like someone who claimed Biden should stop supporting genocide is both-sidesing for Trump.
The one that comes closest was downvoted and removed, so it’s obviously not a popular thing to do.
If you say “biden should stop supporting genocide” then you’ll get “but the other guy supports genocide even harder” to shut down any discussion. If you point out that it’s unacceptable that the only two options are genocide supporters, that’s definitely when you get the “you’re both sidesing!!” talking point in another attempt to shut down discussion.
No you won’t.
Thank you for letting me know that I must be lying about my lived experience.
Go ahead, share some examples then. Back yourself up. Should be simple if it’s so common.
You get one. I suspect you’re arguing in bad faith and I’m not going to waste more time on something like that.
https://lemmy.world/comment/8972976
Particularly sailingbythelee’s response. When you try to say this isn’t sufficient, it will confirm that you were arguing in bad faith the entire time.
You could not have found a better example.
Original position of the goalposts:
No one is shouting down people for just saying Biden should stop supporting genocide.
Now all of a sudden the downvotes are the most important part
Oh the commenter who’s being downvoted? Yeah, it’s obviously not a prevalent or popular response. At best you’re complaining about trolls on the internet – that’s always going to exist.
Oh, and before I forget, if you say that’s not what you’re doing, then it will confirm you were arguing in bad faith the entire time.
That’s for teaching me that cool trick with that disclaimer – what a neat way to discredit people.
What is the strawman in this meme? When you talk to republicans they will point out the flaws of a democrat and act like that is equivalent to whatever their republican counterparts are doing. This is not a strawman.
When you talk to republicans they will point out the flaws of a democrat and act like that is equivalent to whatever their republican counterparts are doing
A “flaw”? Really? Supporting genocide is more than a “flaw”.
But the problem arises when the sort of centrist who would downplay genocide by calling it a “flaw” decides that anyone who says that Biden should stop supporting genocide must be a republican both-sidesing. Or is a Russian. Or chinese, or a bot or a tankie or a trumpist or a nazi or a child.
Which are all things I have been called because I dared to say that Biden should not be supporting genocide.
I’m not disagreeing on the genocide comment. But you said it was a strawman argument. Nothing you’ve said equates to a strawman argument. That’s all I’m saying.
This meme is targeting leftists, not republicans.
If he doesn’t change his position by Election Day, will that prevent you from voting for him?
Wouldn’t that be single-issue voting that would ultimately favor the Orange Menace?
I don’t understand why this keeps resurfacing on Lemmy like there’s a choice. Like, what’s the point of asking people this?
The point is to avoid addressing the reasonable concern. If you say you would not vote for Biden then the conversation becomes about your poor tactics rather than the current president aiding a genocide.
Or to find out how important it is that Biden change course if he wants to win.
Fair enough. Honestly at this point it’s a humanitarian issue, not an electoral one.
In terms of the election, both candidates are bad for Gaza (Trump more so) and Trump is also bad on basically every other issue unless you’re a MAGA republican, rich or a fascist. Obviously any sane person must vote for Biden anyway.
In humanitarian terms, Biden’s response has been a total and utter disaster and anybody who values all human life equally should be disgusted with him. He has possibly the most leverage to change the situation of anybody outside Israel, so the question is, what type of person do you want to be? Do you want to be the person who stays all chummy with the one committing the vast majority of the atrocities and tries to shield him from criticism, or do you want to be the person who calls out injustice when he sees it? Because I am certain that he sees it.
For the election I do think he should be concerned that not all voters will be so pragmatic. But much more importantly he should do the right thing for the 2 million plus people that are currently suffering collective punishment because of the actions of a small minority of them. This isn’t about getting elected, it’s about respect for human life.
You said it much better than I could.
To convince people to not vote or vote third party, so that fascism can get stronger. It will totally work out this time, guys, promise.
Accelerationism is a hell of a drug.
Please vote. Vote third party for president if that’s your conscience.
But also make sure to vote for those what will allow ranked-choice, proportional representation, etc. vote against wackos in your community. Vote for social programs that actually reduce crime and increase safely instead of voting for higher police budgets. Vote for consumer protection. Vote for education and other high return on tax dollar investments.
Which strawman? I’m relying on:
strawman: a weak or imaginary opposition (such as an argument or adversary) set up only to be easily confuted
I don’t think op knows what a strawman argument is.
Anybody who doesn’t vote for Biden because of Israel deserves Trump.
Just going to preface this by saying yes please vote for Biden. If nothing else he is not openly fascist and he will not himself actively work to forward queer genocide and the removal of women’s rights. Please vote for him. If you’re not going to take any measures to change this system and have resigned yourself to existing within it, do one good thing for women and minorities.
If you think it’s fine for a totalitarian fascist state to become established and to mass murder queer people, don’t even fucking bother responding to me. If you’re saying “don’t vote and also don’t revolutionize. Just let trans people and women fucking die” then fuck off. You’re not even worth engaging with. If fascism takes over and my friends, my family, my loved ones and my community are mass murdered I’ll remember how you watched it happen and did literally nothing. Our blood will be on your hands.
I’m not engaging further in this thread.
It’s amazing how passive and tolerant the working class has become of the state. If half the energy that was devoted to arguing about why the system sucks but can’t be changed was instead put into organizing and committing to revolutionary action… Actual real-world change might have already happened.
Like, what’s the line for people? They took away women’s bodily autonomy. What about if they took away women’s right to work? What if they did away with the 40-hour work week? What if they made it so only land owning whites could vote again? Like, where is the line that people will respond by actually trying to change the system?
“The system is broken, but I’m not here to talk about why we should materially do anything to change that” like what kind of argument is that? Are you just going to watch as fascism literally takes over and then try and revolutionize? If Trump wins, are you then going to try and change the system? After the guy who’s definitely a-ok using the military on civilians takes over?
Is this just what it’s going to be forever? Forever arguing for the lesser of two evils, the person who will still cause human suffering but not as much as the other guy? Why are so many people seemingly resigned to this status quo? “It sucks but here we are,” like what?? Even when revolutionary thought is put forward, people say that it would never work, as though no revolution in history has ever worked or achieved any of its aims. Which is just wrong. Neo liberal propaganda has got yall so bad that you genuinely believe that Western capitalist democracy is the only possible way for society to exist and that any and all attempts to change it are impossible.
Biden literally signed into law a resolution that took away the ability of railworkers to strike. This is one of the most anti-union and anti-worker moves from the legislative and executive branches I have ever seen in my entire life.
My choice is between that disgusting sack of shit, and an even worse more putrified fascist disgusting sack of shit scumbag pondscum asshole.
I will not be voting for either, and instead will be selecting the candidate available to me on the ticket most closely matching my priorities and convictions. Either way, the electoral college will look at my vote and immediately trash can it to put the true vote to one of these bought and paid for pricks. Happy fucking democracy, what a goddamn joke.
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Your summary is disingenuous. Economic shortages were to be caused by railroad shareholders, not the unions.
I don’t like Biden either, he’s done things that offend me too. But it doesn’t matter. Assuming Biden or Trump will win the general, then the only rational move is to pick one of them. Your vote can only make the difference between 1st and 2nd. You can’t make the 3rd place candidate jump to first, and you certainly can’t cause the winner to be nobody.
If you wanna vote for a candidate who matches your priorities and convictions, the time for that is the primary stage. The general is too late for that. In fact, if Trump wins that’ll make it even harder for a more liberal candidate to win the next primary, because (as happened after 2016) a Trump victory will scare democratic voters into thinking they need to move to the center to stop the far-right.
I know, American democracy is a big disgusting knot that makes you do things that feel dirty. But just pretend it’s a game, because that’s what it is. If you wanna win in the end, that means on each turn you move towards the least bad outcome.
If you wanna vote for a candidate who matches your priorities and convictions, the time for that is the primary stage
Incorrect.
I legitimately can’t believe y’all are still doing this. Get new material.
Only when there is better evidence that primaries are fair and relevant.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/bernie-sanders-camp-fix-was-against-clinton-n817501
This is also why a no-name junior senator from Illinois also failed to beat Clinton in the primary, right? Because the DNC decided she should win?
That strawman argument is at the level of “I voted for a pigeon why isn’t he president”.
We have email evidence in 2016 of a very popular primary candidate (Sanders) being plotted against by an organisation that is supposed to uphold democracy.
A similar occurrence happened in 2020 when Sanders was up against Biden. Stalking horse candidates were used to soak up votes which were then pledged to Biden. He had no support without those votes.
Saying that people have the option to choose a candidate at the primary stage is demonstrably false.
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It was pretty atrocious how rail workers were prevented from striking, but they did get the sick days they were fighting for a few months later thanks in part to pressure from Biden: https://ibew.org/media-center/Articles/23Daily/2306/230620_IBEWandPaid
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that one was horrible. i think that strike could have sparked another workers rights movement to the likes of the one 100ish years ago.
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forget the politicians blame game, they are doing just that right now, despite strikes or lack thereof. all for show, fuck them.
the important part are the worker rights we could have permanently earned, just like our right to the 8hr workday back then.
i dont care if one side gets to get to power over another as long as we have the worker power to bend them to our will. you seem worried about republicans but it ended up being democrat biden who illegalized strikes for an entire industry. this is really bad in the medium to long run.
about having the people agreeing with it, most people supported it, and im doing my part right now in talking to the ones seemingly on the fence.
This precisely. Anyone who is arguing otherwise is being intentionally misleading. Republicans were practically salivating at the opportunity to attack Biden on economic issues.
Maybe there’s a reason why leftists hate democracy - because they are too politically naive for it.
Republicans were practically salivating at the opportunity to attack Biden on economic issues.
Well, thank God we avoided that outcome! As long as the Dems just cater to what Republicans want, we can ensure that Republicans won’t resort to baseless accusations.
The system will not change on the terms of democracy by voting. That’s clear as it can be.
He also turned around and got almost everything those rail workers were about to go on strike for in follow-up negotiations
But sure, sacrifice minority lives because an establishment politician was more worried about supply chain snarl than about you getting to cum to all that juicy strike footage that wasn’t gonna come out anyways
Don’t bother coming to pride this year, we all know you like our aesthetic more than you value our lives.
Can’t wait to see the electoral college throw out my vote for the third election in a row
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Don’t vote for any criminal with blood on his hands. Don’t vote for any open or crypto fascist. The best thing you can do for men, women, and minorities all over the world is to not support any corrupted politicians.
There’s a genocide happening right now with the support of USA government where thousands of kids already die and keep getting murdered as we speak.
We allow and are complicit in these murders for every day we stand by and let our leaders do the murdering. If another attack happens on US citizens a la 9/11 then I will not be shocked or surprised, we have it coming. It’s literally a sake of national security that we remove our current leadership from power, otherwise we’re literally inviting a retaliation with blindfolds on.
By what moral framework and reasoning within that framework are you coming to the conclusion that citizens who vote for one candidate over another are morally responsible for every individual act of that leader? I’m quite familiar with most of them, and none support that conclusion.
“If you want democracy you have to be a player.” The decision to let our leaders commit immoral acts is still a decision, and one many of us make daily. Especially when they go around killing other people, if we REALLY didn’t want them to do that we would make sure they wouldn’t, but alas, they do because we’ve given them the keys to power to do so. You could then argue “They don’t represent us” which would mean we don’t have democracy, which I argue to be the case, only because people haven’t been playing their position to have it. We willingly participate in a society that gives power to murderers, which says everything about our society. This is what is being told to us while killing our people in retaliation, maybe we should start listening? Or maybe we care so little about our own victims that we want to create more.
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What are you doing as a genocide is happening right now in gaza where thousand of kids are getting murdered?
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My “politics” are not supporting any corrupted criminal with blood on his hands. You are protesting against the genocide while literally begging people to vote one of the corrupted politicians behind it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_2023_Israel–Hamas_war
You seem the one making bad arguments because i never said women or anyone else should accept any injustice. Not voting for scum is not an “electoral protest” it’s how you are supposed to vote, assuming you are in good faith.
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What are you, index@sh.itjust.works, planning to do that would prevent a dictatorial fascist state under a totalitarian Trump from coming to fruition?
I’m not supporting or encouraging others to support red or blue party to begin with. Red and blue have been ruling the US for almost a century cycling in power and ruling as one. When people point out that both sides are the same they are also highlighting that regardless of the red/blue side in power government policies barely change. Many of the key people working for the government get recycled regardless of their party. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Nuland
If you are so worried about the fascist state that could come to fruition you should be worried right now about the fascist state we already have.
Are you equating Weimar Germany with the Nazi state? Do you not see the differences between those 2 things?
Read history, one of the many things that got 1920 fascists consent among the population was advertising themself as a better solution than bolsheviks and communists. Propaganda never changes, you are promoting a corrupted politicians with blood on his hands.
Queer people don’t have the luxury of abstaining.
Thousand of kids in gaza don’t have the chance to live anymore, let alone any luxury.
If you want people to vote there are other parties than red and blue you can promote.
My “politics” are not supporting any corrupted criminal with blood on his hands.
You’re gonna have to be more specific, fella. There isn’t a single politician on this shitty rock who doesn’t have blood on their hands.
What have you done besides make bad arguments online about why Gazans should just accept that the price for your little “electoral protest” is their lives?
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Can you not admit though that it is a bad look for Democrats when they push a pro-genocide candidate and act like there are no better options to defeat fascism, and then say… you either get what you get or you get total fascism.
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I am shocked that more people don’t see the campism on this site laid bare with the way “the left” apparently believes that Joe Biden is in charge of the Israeli military.
Probably because he keeps sending them weapons while condemning what they’re doing with those weapons.
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And if you don’t vote that genocide will come to the USA too
Always our bodies are the favorite props of the white left, bodies can be martyrs for their cause, and won’t act as agents for ours.
Benda N3aesh. We want to live.
I think people just don’t give a shit. I certainly don’t, I want to work as little as possible and enjoy my life as much as I can before the world collapses. Hell half the time I can’t decide if living is still worth it yet I slog on hoping for another day where I get to enjoy something entertaining on twitch or a new video game to play.
Are you really worried Democrats will start voting for Trump now or something? I’m so confused why these memes even get upvoted. It is like posting memes saying that the earth is round. Do we really need daily reminders that the world is round? If someone thinks it is flat… is a meme going to change their opinion?
I agree But at the same time where are we starting Like I sure as hell don’t have the guts to start a revolution I’ll join one ig But getting it started is the hardest part
Its called “organizing” for a reason and there is no shame feeling like you are powerless to do this alone.
The actual argument is that we can do a lot better, but disingenuous political hacks shriek “THAT MEANS YOU THINK BOTH ARE THE EXACT SAME!!!1” and so we’re stuck with voting “not the other guy” for the rest of our lives as the wealth gap keeps widening, everything gets less affordable, the climate is still worsening, and nothing improves in any meaningful capacity.
That’s not what is being addressed here and I think you know that.
There are LOTS of people who equate the two sides and say they are no different. This is a toxic lie and you shouldn’t defend it
There is not. Most people who criticize Biden believe we could do better including not supporting the mass killing and ethnic cleansing or Palestinians by the Israeli state.
And the reality is that as far as the presidency is concerned on that specific topic we have a choice between someone who has been maintaining the existing status quo vis a vis Israel and Palestine but has been successfully pressured into at least looking like he’s trying to stop it by his base and the guy who, last time he was in office, made it worse by moving the Israeli embassy to Jerusalem and several other actions, plus everything else wrong with his policies. As far as the presidency goes, those are the only two options, so while we could maybe have done better before, we don’t have a different option now.
So, between “bad but can be influenced to be better” and “far, far, demonstrably worse and only descending,” the only two actual options, which should people vote for?
I won’t tell any one who they should vote for. However, I think the time to influence the president is now. We’ll see if he is influencable for this particular horror.
Have you tried to speak up to your elected officials to influence the US government to change it’s current position so that we aren’t enabling the Israeli government in its massacre of the Palestinean people?
It’s plain to anyone who is willing to see that this administration has been influenced in a positive direction vis a vis Israel, and they are doing much more to help the Palestinian people than the “turn Gaza into a radioactive parking lot” crew that is the other option will do should they regain power. And yes, I have called the offices of my elected representatives, which didn’t go very far because they’re Republicans.
I do not share your compunction about telling people that a vote for better is better, even if better is not ideal, because I’m an adult who has been paying attention to how it has been and is promised to be worse. There is no viable third party, and mathematically there will not be until every state changes away from First Past the Post, which will not happen before the election. Therefore, the better of the two parties, obviously the Democrats, should be voted for. Full stop. Up and down the ballot. Anyone who decides to not vote this way is indicating that they are fine with the Republicans regaining power, and aren’t allowed to complain about the leapords eating their face should they win. The only instance in which voting third party is acceptable is for smaller local elections, and even then that’s if they did a good job canvassing. You should help them canvass, if there are any nearby.
I am too, believe it or not, an adult. I have different values that lead me to different decisions. I’ve refrained from condescending to you even though we disagree. I hope shining a light on that will change the tenor of this conversation.
Regarding Gaza, I see that the administration has been inching away from the full support of Israel. But from I can tell, it’s been wholly rhetorical. While I would like a long term ceasefire, I know that that’s unlikely at this moment. However, this doesn’t mean that the Biden administration lacks leverage. They continue to supply the IDF with weapons. Biden needs to stop this. Second, threaten cutting off funding to Israel. We average about 3 billion dollars in yearly aid to Israel. The last time a present threaten to cut off funding to Israel was HW Bush in 1991.
Those would be two material and immediate changes that would make sense to me. Next, support resolutions with other western countries in the UN to move towards a long term ceasefire. Get them to open more land crossing to allow for additional aid to enter via truck. The roads exist. We don’t need to build a port.
These steps, would be meaningful. I think it would influence uncommitted voters in swing states. Biden is influenceable now because we are entering into an election. Staying uncommitted means that we have leverage.
I hope that framing makes sense even if you don’t agree with it.
Those are good things to want. Since we’re talking about elections, it’s worth mentioning that of the grand total of two options, only democrats have even a slight possibility for them to happen, wheras the Republicans are saying that Gaza should be nuked, which is worse than what’s happening right now, I’m sure you’ll agree. Which is to say nothing of literally every single other issue where the Rs are universally much worse.
Feel free to appear uncommitted right up until the general, at which point you and everyone else trying to extract concessions needs to show up. And as long as that happens, I’m sorry for implying you’re not an adult.
Somehow you scrolled past a dozen comments proving you wrong to lie about it here
Every comment I scrolled past was some form of agreement. The parent to this comment was the first one critical of the OP.
I don’t know what else to say. I’m being sincere. I’m not interested in some victory points. I’d like my views to be taken seriously and not flattened to farsical stance. I’d like good faith interactions, but understand that this is a passionate project for many.
I’m open to discussion if you want to engage in one that isn’t focused on trying to dunk on your opponent.
We COULD do a lot better if it wasn’t for all those idiots sitting under the scales. There’s a shit load of people that actively want everything on the right side of that scale. There’s groups of people actively supporting Israeli because they believe it’ll bring about the apocalypse and let Jesus return.
Hagee has MILLIONS of followers. And not on twitter, in real life. People who live their lives in service to his vision. People who donate money and time to the cause.
And those are just the zealots. There’s millions more that do whatever these people say “just to be on the safe side” in case they’re right.
In total they compromise about 15-20% of the population, which is roughly the entire population of France or the UK. https://www.deseret.com/faith/2021/10/28/22750589/what-the-latest-data-tells-us-about-christian-nationalism-pew-research-center-andrew-whitehead/
These people cannot be reasoned with, they are blood bound members of a death cult and the only recourse we have is to out vote them. It fucking sucks.
We could do a lot better right now, but biden has demonstrated time and again that he won’t take action even when he can. The genocide in Gaza is the perfect example. He’ll say he’s sad and frustrated but then supplies israel even more to continue their genocide. It’s hard to believe that if we just vote in democrats hard enough that they will take action when they refuse to take action on things they have the power to right now.
I’m just blocking the idiots that post these. So tired already of their bullshit.
Wow, it’s almost like their’s a third candidate running on similar policy changes… Cost of living, environment and improving people’s lives in a meaningful capacity.
Kennedy is an antivax idiot.
“For many, many years, I think parents were so gaslighted, and they were scapegoated, and they were vilified and marginalized, so that even parents of kids who were very, very badly injured, knew what happened to their kid, but they were just reluctant to talk about it. And I think now those days are over,” Kennedy said.
“We – our job is to resist and to talk about it to everybody. If you’re walking down the street – and I do this now myself, which is, you know, I don’t want to do – I’m not a busybody. I see somebody on a hiking trail carrying a little baby and I say to him, ‘Better not get him vaccinated.’ And he heard that from me. If he hears it from 10 other people, maybe he won’t do it, you know, maybe he will save that child.”
Kennedy repeated later in the podcast: “If you’re one of 10 people that goes up to a guy, a man or a woman, who’s carrying a baby, and says, ‘Don’t vaccinate that baby,’ when they hear that from 10 people, it’ll make an impression on ‘em, you know. And we all kept our mouth shut. Don’t keep your mouth shut anymore. Confront everybody on it.”
On a different podcast, he said "Every one of us has an obligation to do a civil disobedience every day. And that could just be walking up to another person – a mother who’s carrying a baby, like I did this morning – and saying, ‘Before you vaccinate that baby, do your independent research.’”
So either he changed his mind – in which case he should very loudly and publicly say he was wrong and recant his remarks – or he’s a fucking liar.
As a potential voter of his. I guess I don’t really care? If I was never allowed to change my opinion, I wouldn’t be able to grow as a person. With his most recent statement, he’s not anti-vaccine. I can find it but I don’t feel like it right now.
Talk is one thing, actions are another. Give the guy a break.
God forbid I have an opinion about Biden’s old age. Another 4 years of inflation out the wazoo, 4 more years of a state sponsored genocide in Gaza, 4 more years giving $75 billion in assistance to Ukraine. We REALLY don’t have ANYTHING else better to spend it on?
I don’t know about this candidate in general, but there’s no chance anyone outside of the democrat-republican approval filter will get anywhere near the presidency. It’s like the myth of “anyone can be rich if they put their mind to it and work hard enough”. In theory enough votes could get any candidate the presidency, but in practice it’s impossible (with even lower odds than becoming individually rich).
Especially with that attitude.
It’s insane that anyone is doing the work of defending either. We deserve significantly better.
This is the thing I can’t believe 100% of the left isn’t screaming from the rooftops. Yes, we’ll all vote for Biden, but we’re going to have to live with the fact that we knowingly voted for a genocide supporter for the rest of our lives. Sure, we voted for the lesser genocide supporter, but that really shouldn’t matter to our own sense of disgust at ourselves.
Innocent people are dying, and my vote for the guy supplying the weapons that kill them will be the most shameful moment of my life. At least, I hope it will - I don’t have much faith at this point that I won’t be forced to do something even worse in 4 years. And 4 years after that. And 4 years after that…
I get what you’re saying, but this is the United States. We’ve been voting for genocide supporters for like our entire history…
That doesn’t make it right, but it’s not new by any means. The entire world deserves better than what we put forward time and time again :(
You’re absolutely right, but better late than never for people to finally start realizing it. This isn’t the time to be saying “It’s nothing new, move on,” it’s the time to be saying “It’s not even new! Get mad! Fight back!”
It’s possible that YOU deserve better. But WE… dog we vote for this, we chose this.
There is no nefarious conspiracy, our democracy has problems but, by and large, we get what we chose.
Unfortunately, YOU, and I share this country with 350M people and the majority of them fucking love this shit.
we chose this.
Did “we”? If you had to describe someone who voted for Biden in the primaries what would be some of your guesses? You think a bunch of millenials got together and were like “Yeah! Old white man who’s blocked progressive and leftist policies for his entire political career! That’s our guy!”
Yeah. That’s the point. that group you described is a minority in the party.
TBH, older black women put Biden in front in 2020. The same women who saved us from a GOP controlled senate when they came out in force in GA.
If you want to understand the Democratic Party ask a 75 YO black lady who hasn’t missed an election or a church service in her life what her priorities are.
TBH, older black women put Biden in front in 2020.
Source?
EDIT: I see someone took the time to downvote me but didn’t provide a source. Is that because demographic information isn’t provided by the DNC for primary results and this claim is completely made up?
I wasn’t able to find good data of the age breakdown, but here’s an editorial with a bunch of statistics that claims black women are what put Biden in office. So I’d rate OP’s claim as “plausible” only because we know that old people vote more than young people.
This article is about the general election. We’re talking about the primaries.
Sorry, missed that. Here’s some demographic information from CNN broken down by state. After looking at a few of the states, Bernie’s base was absolutely white people under age 45, as Biden won all the other demographic groups.
Dig up some exit polls from the 2020 SC dem primary. My statement was based on my recollection from the time. But that is what I was referencing.
You’re claiming black women elected Biden in the 2020 primaries because they helped him win in one state?
dog we vote for this
Half the joke on this.
“Well, now that Biden sucks, I’m not going to vote for him.”
“NOOOOOO! YOU HAVE TO VOTE! DONDALD DRUMPF!!!”
“Okay, fine. I’ll vote for him.”
“Aha. So now you can’t complain!”
Well I was more talking about the parties generously allowing us to participate in the primary process in a democratic way.
BUT, there isn’t going to be a party primary when you have a sitting president in this country. It’s suicide. Voters did choose Joe Biden in 2020. Voters in the GOP chose DT in ‘16 and ‘24.
There isn’t some massive constituency out there hoping for young leftists that got screwed by “the man”. They got washed out by voters who do not want that. I say this all the time on this website. You have to build that constituency from the bottom up. Ignore the presidency for a few cycles and fill your school board and state house with progressives. The party will follow the voters. That is the way it works.
There isn’t some massive constituency out there hoping for young leftists that got screwed by “the man”.
Just the majority of California Democrats. But other than that, basically nobody.
The same people that sent Dianne Feinstein to the senate until she died in office?
Yeah…
Or Kamala, for that matter. But no leftist candidate in California had access to the kind of funds that either Kamala’s or Feinstein’s campaign enjoyed. Very difficult to establish yourself as a known quantity without decades of name recognition and tens of millions of dollars in your war chest.
The Sanders campaign was exceptional in large part thanks to their prodigious fundraising capacity. Also helped that he received over a decade of positive media coverage, plus ample coverage during the Bush Era as a reliable opposition to Bush policy. LA City Council candidates Nithya Raman and Ysabel Jurado had significant success thanks to their own success raising tons of campaign cash.
And this isn’t unique to California. When leftist candidates can find a pool of enthusiastic fund raisers and receptive media coverage, they quickly rise to the top of the pile in crowded races.
“the democrats don’t have a cult” lie is falling apart.
“I don’t mind if we’re funding a genocide, but god forbid I face an inconvenience at home.”
The fear of scraping at the bottom of the barrel to keep that american exceptionalism on top rather than revolting against the system is somehow the better option.
“It’s not like a cycle of doom or anything as long as I don’t get inconvenienced.”
Here’s a fun game: ask a Democrat for one thing that Biden could do that would cause them to not vote for him.
What’s their deal-breaker? Where’s the line?
Imagine defending a mafioso or a murderer
We do. Unfortunately all we can vote for this year is whether we’ll have a 2028 election or if we’ll be a theocratic monarchy by then.
Then maybe our system is fundamentally broken and we need to change it? If we are always one election away from the destruction of democracy and society there is something fucked up. I have heard the same rhetoric about every election in the last 30 years.
Yeah, I live in a state where the GOP will win regardless. So I will absolutely not waste my vote on either of these candidates.
I don’t think many people are saying that Biden is the same as Trump or just as bad as Trump. I think most progressives, for instance, would agree that Biden is better than Trump, it’s just that that’s such a low bar. I mean, are liberals really surprised that people aren’t all that impressed with a president whose main selling point is that he’s not as bad as the only alternative? Now, I get that liberals don’t see it that way, I understand that liberals, apparently, are really very happy with Joe Biden, but for the rest of us he is only the least bad option.
In some parts of Lemmy, they are absolutely making that argument.
I would imagine those people are Marxists, or other anti-capitalists. If you’re somebody whose primary litmus test is whether a candidate is pro-capitalist or anti-capitalist, you might not see much of a difference between Biden and Trump because they are both staunchly pro-capitalist. But I think those people are overrepresented on lemmy and only make up a very small percentage of the actual US voter base.
Or perhaps these people live in the middle east or africa and every day they get a taste of “capitalism”.
Really? Because those folks have family here, and they say “stop using our dead relatives as an excuse to let the fascists come for us too you insensitive porcelain American shit bags!”
This is the answer.
On Lemmy, yeah. The political leanings here is different than the body politic of America.
It’s very weird to see people say “Biden is awful. I won’t support him anymore” and get “Why didn’t you say that about Donald Trump?!!!” thrown back at them.
At some point, insisting that Donald Trump will ALSO do a genocide, so you need to donate all your money to the Biden campaign and block walk for him… Fucking bananas.
Even Obama didn’t get this kind of Ride or Die support from Democrats.
It’s because Trump has said he wants the genocide to be stronger. Biden wants it to end, but isn’t doing much to stop it. Trump also wants to go after minorities in the US.
Obama didn’t get the same support because his opponent wasn’t even close to as bad. Trump has already tried to overturn democracy. Republicans have also put together a plan to innact a Christo-fascist dictatorship (project 2025). The elections with Obama were business as usual. This election is, for many people, life or death, and potentially the last hope for democracy.
Also, Obama was cooler than Biden but he wasn’t better. Honestly, I think if you were to compare their actions as president, Biden would be better. He still sucks, but he’s much better than I expected (very low bar). They’re just not great at communicating what he’s done.
Trump has said he wants the genocide to be stronger.
And Mitt Romney said “Double Gitmo”. That doesn’t absolve Obama or Biden for keeping the illegal torture prison open during their terms.
You don’t absolve yourself of genocide by saying “Well, it was either me or Mega-Hitler”
No one is saying they’re absolved. Where have you heard that?
The fact of the matter is that if you don’t like genocide or gitmo or whatever other horrible things, you should vote for the person who at worst wants to maintain the status quo of horrible things.
That said, Obama wanted to close Gitmo. Biden has also condemned Israel’s attacks, and the US has warned them to stop. We’ve also stopped some military aid to them, but obviously not all. The recent jets, for example, still happened, but they’re air-superiority fighters which serve no use against Palestine. We’ve also continued to send a lot of other defensive aid, though offensive has slowed down if not stopped. To imply Obama or Biden didn’t try to do anything is ignorance at best, if not an outright lie. The fact of the matter is that much of it is handled by congress though, and republicans in congress will stop a Democrat from doing essentially anything.
That said, Obama wanted to close Gitmo.
Obama said he wanted to close Gitmo. He gave up forever at the very first setback.
Sure, and we can question it, but we can’t know what he will do. My understanding is that he really had not control over that though
Oh geeze what’s worse a bigger war crime prison or bringing a genocide against Arabs to America?
Because the reality of our shitty political system is that not supporting the only viable non-fascist candidate means supporting the one that is. It only actually matters in the handful of swing states, but the internet is worldwide and heaping negativity about supporting the non-fascist candidate can matter. This doesn’t mean you shouldn’t criticize Biden and the Democrats for their many failings, but not supporting him in the election for the sake of the country is cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Because the reality of our shitty political system is that not supporting the only viable non-fascist candidate means supporting the one that is.
Isn’t this a little disingenuous? Or maybe individualism is so ingrained in the western psyche that people honestly don’t see the asymmetry of this framing.
The reality of our political system is that the only way to get change is to demand it from the people who need your vote. By giving your vote without demanding change, you’re supporting the system that disenfranchises you (and you’re supporting the binary choice that was given to you by it).
Isn’t this a little disingenuous?
No, not even slightly
not supporting the only viable non-fascist candidate
If
You’re
Doing
Genocide
Then
You’re
A
Fascist
Candidate
You are aware that fascism already has a definition, correct? It’s not just someone doing something that you don’t agree with.
Please don’t water down a word that has very serious implications right now.
It’s not just someone doing something that you don’t agree with.
Are we trying to do moral relativism on genocide?
The IDF knowingly and deliberately bombed food aid workers in clearly marked vehicles on a road designated for food aid delivery, entirely for the purpose of starving out war refugees.
They did that with munitions built and supplied by the American government.
And when questioned, the American National Security Secretary said it was the IDF’s prerogative to bomb them.
This was deliberate, calculated, cold blooded murder of aid workers done with the participation of the US military under the command of President Joe Biden.
Everything you just said has nothing to do with fascism and is therefore irrelevant to the term.
I’m not saying that any of that is ok, but that doesn’t make it fascism.
Exhibit A
Even Obama didn’t get this kind of Ride or Die from Dems
-
He wasn’t running against Donald “ban the Muslims” Trump,
-
YES HE ABSOLUTELY DID IF YOU’RE SAYING THIS YOU ARE CLEARLY TOO YOUNG TO REMEMBER THE OBAMA GIRL SQUAD
He wasn’t running against Donald “ban the Muslims” Trump,
He was running against Double Gitmo Romney.
YOU ARE CLEARLY TOO YOUNG TO REMEMBER THE OBAMA GIRL SQUAD
You’re confusing a publicity stunt financed by the party with an enthusiastic show of support
-
Are they literally saying they are the same person? That they share the same atoms?
Or is the point that they are the same in the most important ways?
Maybe your disagreement is over what qualities/policies are most important, but accusing them for being blind is easier than addressing the actual disagreement?
The arguments are that Biden is just as bad as Trump.
And it doesn’t occur to you to ask by what metrics they think that? All metrics? One metric? A spattering of metrics?
accusing them for being blind is easier than addressing the actual disagreement
So you agree that people on Lemmy are arguing that Biden is just as bad as Trump.
People on Lemmy are arguing that Biden is just as bad as Trump in the most important ways.
And this is exactly how nothing ever gets done. Only criticize, never do anything, create the feeling that getting involved is pointless because"they’re all the same anyway".
I hate that humans are so awful at nuance. People could absolutely praise and condemn the same person for different actions, instead they want to boil down that person’s entire existence to “good, bad, different, same”. And we all suffer for that
So we’re in agreement.
Have you talked with Republicans, though? This has always been the way of a republican. Democrat does bad things, republican does bad thing. To them it’s a wash even though what the Republican did was 100 times worse.
This meme is targeting leftists, not republicans.
The point is that they have the same “both sides do any bad things at all so Dems just as bad” mentality
It reveals how this is all kvetch from the white left, only people raised by Republicans can have this absolutist moral line of thinking
I don’t think many people are saying that Biden is the same as Trump or just as bad as Trump.
You wrote this on Lemmy. I don’t see how you missed how popular this attitude is.
I think people who want no criticism of Biden choose to believe that any criticism at all of Biden is the same thing as saying Biden is the same as Trump.
I recognize you as one of the people I’m talking about so it’s no surprise you’d say some baloney like this
I’ve never said Biden is the same as or just as bad as Trump. You on the other hand love to be hostile to anyone opposed to genocide.
Yeah, you lie your ass off and say that opposition to your false equivalency means “no criticism of Biden” and also support of genocide.
Great job, facts don’t matter, nuance is dead.
I have never and will never say that Biden is the same as Trump.
You said I do, then have the unmitigated temerity to call me a liar.
And yet here you are disagreeing with anyone saying this post makes a good point
are liberals really surprised that people aren’t all that impressed with a president whose main selling point is that he’s not as bad as the only alternative?
When your opponent is Trump, it’s kind of hard for that to not be the main selling point; he could be the best president ever and that would likely still be true.
he could be the best president ever and that would likely still be true.
If he were the best president ever, he might have something better to run on than “at least I’m second worst to Trump.”
You missed the point completely. But that being said, he barely even mentions trump. This idea that he’s only campaigning on not being trump is completely detached from reality.
Perhaps it’s just a case of vote for biden now so trump can be shut out for the next 4 yrs and hope that his senility eats him before the next course
Gawd. Do we have to get one of these braindead posts every damn day? You think it’s convincing anyone?
Biden’s concerns aren’t people choosing Trump. Those voters are fixed and committed. Biden has to worry about Democratic voters getting so frustrated with the system that they check out. These posts are practically (if not actually) designed to do exactly that.
Democrats listen up! Bitching at voters is not an effective campaign strategy! Learn something from Hillary or suffer the same fate!
The lesser of two evils is still evil. This is just a plain statement of fact. Like sure, I’d rather eat a turd sandwich than be immersed and drowned in shit, but that doesn’t make the turd in the sandwich any less of a piece of shit.
Voters have the right to call a turd a piece of shit, even if that’s their least bad option. And if certain politicians don’t like being called out for doing shitty things, they can also you know, stop doing shitty things.
Conversely, politicians who are not for the “drown people in shit” policy, don’t get a free pass for increasing the amount of turds in sandwiches.
PS . I’m not an American and don’t vote in your country’s elections.
PS2. Sorry for all the shit analogies.
PS2. Sorry for all the shit analogies.
don’t worry it’s fine there’s plenty of turds downvoting you
The annual pretending Democrats don’t uphold systemic issues because Trump is clearly worse. 🙄
Hexbear users incoming.
Brandon 2024, warts and all. Fuck the republican traitor filth.
Removed by mod
Yo, you already spammed this when you made the Hilary post. Exact wording too. It doesn’t really apply. Can you please at least respond to the topic.your response to be at least relevant to the post. They are comparing both sides as if they are both as bad and all you’re spamming is something only relevant to something that happened two days ago about how terrible it would be if they were exactly the same on benefits. This only enables those who are already too lazy standing on the sidelines by fluffing over important, individual points.
Internet discourse is when ctrl+c ctrl+v
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If you start talking about getting rid of Red vs Blue, and get more into eating the rich, you find a whole lot more unity real fast. I know many conservatives that hop right on that bandwagon, enthusiastically. Trump v Biden? That’s pointless. Wasting billionaires and their families? Now that gets people excited and unified.
Wasting billionaires and their families? Now that gets people excited and unified.
Yeah it turns moderates and liberals into fascists real fast.
Fascists support oligarchs, actually
unless they get to kill trans people, then the reds will always vote for them.
As I’ve said many times before, Approval Voting and Proportional Representation are the way to go in order to break the duopoly. Volunteer with Election Science to get this shit started.
I’m curious what you’ve done to further voting changes in your state. Would you care to comment?
I’m for ranked-choice voting. But I’m also lazy and rather selfish and haven’t donated any time (money is easier) to anything to make the world better. But I’m pretty ok with putting that out there.
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“tHiS cOmMeNt SuPpOrTs GeNoCiDe!”
Brace yourselves, hexbears wearing .world accounts are coming
Hate to break it to you, but not all leftist are on hexbear.
Saying somebody is from “hexbear” or a “tankie” is the new “communist” of American Liberals, deployed just like “communist” was in the old days when the chief of whatever political tribe they support does something which is pretty much Fascism and they can’t actually argue or justify it away.
I supposed that because of their position in politics is so much to the right and so far from the center, than American “moderates”/liberals invariably just see one big blob to their left mixing everything up to and including all the variants of Communism.
That said, this case is really special as even Center-Right people are against supporting the Nueu Holocaust being committed by Israel: one needs to be so far to the right to the point of being Nazi-adjacent to support this or those that support it.
“Guys, these hexbear users and tankies people are talking about seem to be obnoxious, reactionary, tribalistic assholes that unironically support oppressive regimes. Clearly people hating them is The Red Scare 2.0”
It’s the third Red Scare.
Stay scared, then 😭
Are you saying the Red Scares didn’t happen? Or, that you approve of political repression?
If Putin was as supporting Israel, you hexbear bootlickers would be full critical support
Cheers for confirming my point so well!
I never heard of a hexbear before lemmy, and frankly, I don’t understand them. They don’t really seem to support any thing, they just actively don’t support things. They’re just negative about everything and basically, just annoying. They’re not on any political spectrum I understand
Because they want to sow apathy, accelerating the collapse of society. At least that has been my experience whenever I have to engage in debate with them.
I really think they are accelerationists. I never hear any solutions oriented discussion.
I didn’t understand them either, at first. The best way I can describe them is genuine, honest people who are passionate about leftist ideas of all kinds, that got caught in their own little socialism shitpost bubble for a time, and have now emerged. Again alive to the world of federated forums, they are either changing minds or pissing people off because they don’t pull their punches, and will argue for extreme action. They do this because they feel there’s no reason to play fair in a system so rigged against the masses.
I, for one, am glad my instance stayed federated with them.
They’re essentially a Chapo Trap House fanbase whose main political discourse is antagonizing liberals. Outside of their instance they are probably being sarcastic, trolling, or flaming some generically lib take.
Naturally they’re hated by libs and many a story and mythology has been spun about them as the boogeyman.
So: they’re intentional assholes on the internet, and people resoundly find themselves shocked and surprised by that.
I moved from Reddit right into a .world account with leftist views. I didn’t even know what a hexbear was.
I think there’s a difference between a “hexbear user” and a typical “leftist.”
A lot of their stuff reads like leftist versions of 4chan circlejerk insanity.
Oh I definitely know that now. They’re somehow more insane than the lemmingrad folks. Wild people.
If you came from Reddit, it’s chapotraphouse. When they were banned they made a Lemmy. Same vaguely violent meme content.
Not all leftists are stupid enough to believe that not voting for Biden is the better choice.
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Why delete your amazing comment?
It highlighted the risks of lead exposure as an infant. You were doing good for the whole planet.
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this is a bad faith reading of a basic ass fucking tenant of socialist theory. democrats, party of the educated, are feigning ignorance to try and silence dissent.
Remember kids, if you want to aid a genocide just make sure your enemy is an even bigger piece of shit than you are. No consequences! Morality? Never heard of her.
An enemy that will aid a genocide with even more enthusiasm and possibly help Russia start another one.
Yeah so ship those arms to the genocidal state! Feel your heart swell with pride as they count the dead children blown to pieces with bombs made in the US of A. Thank God it wasn’t Trump that sent them. That would be really awful
Thank God it wasn’t Trump that sent them
That’s true. Cause in addition to shipping arms, Trump and his cronies would also be trying to make life hell for women, LGBT community, and other minorities, and who the fuck knows what else.
Actually we do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025
You can’t see the forest for trees.
Stop hyperventilating. Touch grass.
I can see just fine. I see the support Biden gives to mass murder and am not blinded to this by the fact that Trump would give more. I’m slightly confused why this seems so difficult for some people to see? Supporting genocide is bad - is this a controversial take now?
Stop hyperventilating. Touch grass.
Pathetic. It might help you to imagine that I’m all worked up about this but I am not. I just think supporting genocide is a bad thing. Weird how so many people seem to drop their morals when there’s an election on the horizon. And by “weird” I mean “despicable.”
If you don’t vote Biden it’s not that you’re supporting that genocide, it’s that you’re supporting MORE genocide.
If you don’t vote Biden it’s not that you’re supporting that genocide, it’s that you’re supporting MORE genocide.
How so? Show your work.
Biden is the only candidate that has the potential to win other than Trump.
Trump supports Israel (first president to say that its capital is Jerusalem, says Israel needs to “finish the problem” with Gaza…) and he wants to stop support for Ukraine (enabling another genocide) and that’s not even getting into LGBTQ+ and POC rights erosions if he gets in power which is akin to wanting to make them disappear, i.e. another genocide.
FPTP
Non support for one is equal to supporting the other
This is mathematically proven and the only reason I’m not calling you out for JAQing this question off and sea lioning is because of the genuine chance you’re young enough to genuinely not know better.
Biden shouldn’t have sent them at all.
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Trump did sell Israel fighter jets too. Also sold some to Saudis.
Yeah that’s because he’s an asshole
Good thing I’m not voting for him, either.
Yes you are if you don’t vote against him
But why let something like math stop you from sacrificing lives here in America for your own white moral validness?
If both options have the same stance on an issue, then you can not change the issue by voting.
Meaning, it is a non-voting issue and can not be used as an argument for voting.
Absolutely. Does that mean you shouldn’t criticise and push for a change of policy? The president of the United States is aiding a genocide. That should make every single American ashamed.
But yeah bOtH sIdEs!!1!!
