• Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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    8 months ago

    I love watching this strawman over and over.

    Of course Biden is better than Trump. He should still stop supporting genocide.

    • This is fine🔥🐶☕🔥@lemmy.worldOP
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      8 months ago

      As far as I know, the Oval Office doesn’t have start/stop genocide button, or control inflation lever for that matter.

      If it’s not going to be Biden, then it will be someone else. Either a Republican or a Democrat.

      Even someone who earlier looked promising, eg Fetterman is a staunch Israel supporter.

      Because the problem is systematic. You can’t just uproot the US-Israel nexus that’s deeply entrenched in the US politics.

      • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        the Oval Office doesn’t have start/stop genocide button

        True, but it DOES have the option to stop supplying bombs that they know for a fact are being used to commit that genocide.

        Your “either they can push a magic button or they’re doing all they can” dichotomy isn’t clever. It shows that you’re being either disingenuous, willfully ignorant or just extremely obtuse.

        Because the problem is systematic

        Yes, Israel is systematically wiping out the population of Gaza and the Biden White House is using the levers of the system to help them do it. That’s not an argument for not telling them to stop.

        You can’t just uproot the US-Israel nexus that’s deeply entrenched in the US politics

        You can, in fact. It worked with Apartheid South Africa, which the US also kept supporting way beyond the point that most other countries stopped, and it’ll work with THIS apartheid regime too.

      • TheBananaKing@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        It has a stop paying for genocide button.

        It has a stop vetoing UN resolutions button.

        It has an impose sanctions button and a freeze assets button.

        It has a pull their warships out button.

        It has dozens of make life really uncomfortable for Israel if it doesn’t fucking stop committing genocide buttons.

        But at the very least it could stop actively helping them commit genocide.

        • This is fine🔥🐶☕🔥@lemmy.worldOP
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          8 months ago

          And what does that do?

          Gives ammo to GOP and their allies to target Biden and attract fence-sitters and unaware.

          These things don’t happen in a vacuum.

          Biden isn’t rubbing his hands with glee and laughing maniacally.

          Do you honestly think these options weren’t considered over the last six months?

          • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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            8 months ago

            And what does that do?

            Gives ammo to GOP and their allies to target Biden and attract fence-sitters and unaware.

            On the contrary. The majority of the population doesn’t approve of supporting genocide, especially Democrats and prospective Dem voters further left.

            The status quo of supporting the genocide isn’t winning over anyone who would vote Republican if they stopped. It’s alienating millions of crucial voters who won’t vote at all if they DON’T stop.

            We can easily agree that not voting is a bad idea that is likely to contribute to the risk of mango Mussolini winning.

            Given that, we should be able to also agree that it’s a bad idea to knowingly keep doing something morally and ethically reprehensible that is causing people to do just that.

          • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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            8 months ago

            And what does that do?

            Makes it harder for Netanyahu to continue committing genocide.

            Gives ammo to GOP and their allies to target Biden and attract fence-sitters and unaware.

            We shouldn’t keep supporting genocide just because you’re scared of what the GOP might do. That’s a shitty reason for anything, and it’s disgusting cowardice in this context.

          • Patapon Enjoyer@lemmy.world
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            8 months ago

            Gives ammo to GOP and their allies to target Biden and attract fence-sitters and unaware.

            Should we also not support healthcare, trans rights, women’s rights, work reform , tax reform, climate change laws and all the other things they get angry at? The road to fascism is paved with political convenience.

          • bl_r@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            8 months ago

            “Oh, I’m so sorry, I’d love to stop the genocide, but think of the optics! It would be soooooooo optically bad if we stopped the genocide! It could make the fence sitters vote for trump! We all know the fence sitters love genocide!”

        • Natanael@slrpnk.net
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          8 months ago

          They did use the stop vetoing resolutions button. Not much but it’s not nothing.

          Sending their warships would mean Israel would try calling their bluff and force USA to commit an act of war to stop them, which would cause absolutely chaos in the region. They probably should start with sanctions though.

          Biden’s biggest problem here is he’s so focused on backrooms negotiations, that he’s not using some of the options that could increase public pressure, and all other people see is old treaties continuing with very slow changes and seeing the continued actions of the other party who doesn’t really want to negotiate.

          • TheBananaKing@lemmy.world
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            8 months ago

            I mean withdraw their ships already in the area, replace that layer of defense with, oh I dunno, thoughts and prayers maybe.

      • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        As far as I know, the Oval Office doesn’t have start/stop genocide button

        I didn’t say “stop genocide”. I said “stop supporting genocide.”

        • This is fine🔥🐶☕🔥@lemmy.worldOP
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          8 months ago

          The Republican ship is sinking and a void will be opening for the next populist to unite the two ends of the horseshoe (extreme right and extreme left).

          Thanks for the heads up, Nostradamus.

      • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        Right here on lemmy. Try saying that Biden should stop supporting genocide here on lemmy a few times. You’ll get plenty of people acting like you’re both-sidesing for Trump.

        • null@slrpnk.net
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          8 months ago

          Only if you add in a splash of “so I’m not voting for him”.

          No one is shouting down people for just saying Biden should stop supporting genocide.

              • OccamsTeapot@lemmy.world
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                8 months ago

                Someone posts news about Biden walking back on his sanctions on settlers, and this comment appears. Edit, doesn’t work for me, maybe this link to my reply will

                Another perfect example and another

                Someone makes a meme about Biden jeopardizing his chances and gets this response.

                None of these people said they would vote trump. If you look out for it you will see this quite often. Unfortunately a couple of recent threads I was involved in with other examples have since been deleted.

                • null@slrpnk.net
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                  8 months ago

                  I can’t read some of those without creating an account, so I’ll take your word for it.

                  But from the ones I can see, I don’t see anyone acting like someone who claimed Biden should stop supporting genocide is both-sidesing for Trump.

                  The one that comes closest was downvoted and removed, so it’s obviously not a popular thing to do.

                  • OccamsTeapot@lemmy.world
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                    8 months ago

                    Someone in one example is complaining that the DNC ignores progressives, not saying they will vote for Trump. The response containing this has 10 net upvotes:

                    It seems you’re suggesting that the fallout from another Trump presidency will lead to better long term results than a second Biden presidency?

                    What happens to Ukraine after you stick it to the man and support Trump?

                    Honestly it will continue in future and now you will notice it.

          • hark@lemmy.world
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            8 months ago

            If you say “biden should stop supporting genocide” then you’ll get “but the other guy supports genocide even harder” to shut down any discussion. If you point out that it’s unacceptable that the only two options are genocide supporters, that’s definitely when you get the “you’re both sidesing!!” talking point in another attempt to shut down discussion.

            • null@slrpnk.net
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              8 months ago

              Go ahead, share some examples then. Back yourself up. Should be simple if it’s so common.

              • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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                8 months ago

                You get one. I suspect you’re arguing in bad faith and I’m not going to waste more time on something like that.

                https://lemmy.world/comment/8972976

                Particularly sailingbythelee’s response. When you try to say this isn’t sufficient, it will confirm that you were arguing in bad faith the entire time.

                • OccamsTeapot@lemmy.world
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                  8 months ago

                  You could not have found a better example.

                  Original position of the goalposts:

                  No one is shouting down people for just saying Biden should stop supporting genocide.

                  Now all of a sudden the downvotes are the most important part

                • null@slrpnk.net
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                  8 months ago

                  Oh the commenter who’s being downvoted? Yeah, it’s obviously not a prevalent or popular response. At best you’re complaining about trolls on the internet – that’s always going to exist.

                  Oh, and before I forget, if you say that’s not what you’re doing, then it will confirm you were arguing in bad faith the entire time.

                  That’s for teaching me that cool trick with that disclaimer – what a neat way to discredit people.

    • danc4498@lemmy.world
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      8 months ago

      What is the strawman in this meme? When you talk to republicans they will point out the flaws of a democrat and act like that is equivalent to whatever their republican counterparts are doing. This is not a strawman.

      • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        When you talk to republicans they will point out the flaws of a democrat and act like that is equivalent to whatever their republican counterparts are doing

        A “flaw”? Really? Supporting genocide is more than a “flaw”.

        But the problem arises when the sort of centrist who would downplay genocide by calling it a “flaw” decides that anyone who says that Biden should stop supporting genocide must be a republican both-sidesing. Or is a Russian. Or chinese, or a bot or a tankie or a trumpist or a nazi or a child.

        Which are all things I have been called because I dared to say that Biden should not be supporting genocide.

        • danc4498@lemmy.world
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          8 months ago

          I’m not disagreeing on the genocide comment. But you said it was a strawman argument. Nothing you’ve said equates to a strawman argument. That’s all I’m saying.

      • Lemminary@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        Wouldn’t that be single-issue voting that would ultimately favor the Orange Menace?

        I don’t understand why this keeps resurfacing on Lemmy like there’s a choice. Like, what’s the point of asking people this?

        • OccamsTeapot@lemmy.world
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          8 months ago

          The point is to avoid addressing the reasonable concern. If you say you would not vote for Biden then the conversation becomes about your poor tactics rather than the current president aiding a genocide.

            • OccamsTeapot@lemmy.world
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              8 months ago

              Fair enough. Honestly at this point it’s a humanitarian issue, not an electoral one.

              In terms of the election, both candidates are bad for Gaza (Trump more so) and Trump is also bad on basically every other issue unless you’re a MAGA republican, rich or a fascist. Obviously any sane person must vote for Biden anyway.

              In humanitarian terms, Biden’s response has been a total and utter disaster and anybody who values all human life equally should be disgusted with him. He has possibly the most leverage to change the situation of anybody outside Israel, so the question is, what type of person do you want to be? Do you want to be the person who stays all chummy with the one committing the vast majority of the atrocities and tries to shield him from criticism, or do you want to be the person who calls out injustice when he sees it? Because I am certain that he sees it.

              For the election I do think he should be concerned that not all voters will be so pragmatic. But much more importantly he should do the right thing for the 2 million plus people that are currently suffering collective punishment because of the actions of a small minority of them. This isn’t about getting elected, it’s about respect for human life.

        • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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          8 months ago

          To convince people to not vote or vote third party, so that fascism can get stronger. It will totally work out this time, guys, promise.

          • Zachariah@lemmy.world
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            8 months ago

            Please vote. Vote third party for president if that’s your conscience.

            But also make sure to vote for those what will allow ranked-choice, proportional representation, etc. vote against wackos in your community. Vote for social programs that actually reduce crime and increase safely instead of voting for higher police budgets. Vote for consumer protection. Vote for education and other high return on tax dollar investments.

    • brbposting@sh.itjust.works
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      8 months ago

      Which strawman? I’m relying on:

      strawman: a weak or imaginary opposition (such as an argument or adversary) set up only to be easily confuted