Wanna get even angrier? Since the cease fire was agreed, Israel released 150 Palestinian people. In that time, they have also made 133 new arrests of Palestinians for the crime of…celebrating the release of Palestinians.
If this were done by a movie villain, people would criticize it for being too cartoonishly evil and unrealistic.
Imma need a hardcore source for this. Not because I doubt it, but because I’d like to include it in an essay
Aljazeera is the first thing to pop up. You can likely use it as a jumping off point.
It’s the ‘arrested for celebrating’ part that we want a source for and I didn’t see any in this article about it. Just seems very odd Israel would admit such a thing, so if they did I want a solid source to share with others.
You could literally use google and find lots of stories talking about it. Here is a snippet from just one.
THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT narrative surrounding the Palestinian prisoners being released during this temporary ceasefire is both insidious and dishonest. Interior Minister Itamar Ben Gvir has banned Palestinians from celebrating their release. “My instructions are clear: there are to be no expressions of joy,” he said. “Expressions of joy are equivalent to backing terrorism, victory celebrations give backing to those human scum, for those Nazis.” He told Israeli police to deploy an “iron fist” to enforce his edict. https://theintercept.com/2023/11/26/palestine-israel-prisoners/
That is pretty fuckin clear.
My instructions are clear: there are to be no expressions of joy,” he said. “Expressions of joy are equivalent to backing terrorism"
Wow. That is cartoonishly dystopian.
Totally not channeling his inner Nazi… Yet there are still shitbags here twisting themselves in knots to defend everything Israel does.
Thank you!
Ben Gvir is a special kind of evil, but unfortunately not so uncommon in the Israeli government.
Al Jazeera is heavily biased towards Arabs. They mix lies with truths very well, creating a propagandistic media. I advise fact-checking everything that Al Jazeera says and not considering them a trustworthy source. They have zero credibility.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jazeera_controversies_and_criticism
It was the first link in a search on Google. Calm your tits.
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No, they’re saying that’s a dumb response because it’s backed by multiple outlets. Sure one way be biased so… Do your own research. Or complain that it wasn’t handed to you tied up with a bow.
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Comedy gold. /S
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And yet some are still defending it. The propaganda is strong.
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they only influence the elections in Israel, mainly because that is where they are a political block
I wouldn’t be sure of that. Nor would I have any truck with the old puppet-master/squid trope. A lot of countries will budget for influencing various political spheres beyond their borders. Israel shouldn’t get singled out for special criticism in that particular field. Not because what they have been caught doing isn’t reprehensible but because that field of manure is busy with as bad or worse actors such as Russia, China, or the cough USA cough.
What makes any news showing Israel in a positive light propaganda and any news showing hamas in a positive light credible? Each side is saying the exact same thing about each other yet you chose to believe only one side as believable.
What a simplistic interpretation of reporting during war times. Reductively representing all Palestinians as Hamas is willfully ignorant. The vast majority of people here are for the people under siege.
If you support people under siege, that would include Israel.
You don’t know what the word siege means.
They give sources and show evidence. That makes them credible.
Also Aljazeera shows first hand accounts of Palestinian hostages telling their stories of torture in Israeli prison while all the israeli side gives us is “a hostages aunt said this definitely happened” while prohibiting the israeli hostages to speak to the media.
Just because israel lies about everything you can’t go “well then surely the other side does too”.
Yeah but that’s not what happens. So why do you believe that?
Show me where that didn’t happen.
Only one side can end this simply by going home. Hamas and Hezbollah have both publicly stated their only demand to end hostilities is that Israel stops it’s occupation.
So then why did they attack first? What occupation? Living in your own country isn’t occupation.
Sorry but no. The rest of the world agreed that conquering land and calling it your own went out of style in May of 1945. You don’t get to put your own pictures on the wall and pretend you didn’t steal the house.
I didn’t but I guess thanks for keeping me informed. Also distracts me from my problems which are minor in comparison.
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Watch carefully when you hear and see coverage about this. The people Israel had were “prisoners” while the people hamas had were “hostages.”
This kind of subtle reframing of words happens all the time.
CBS Nightly News had a story that talked about the 150% increase (don’t quote me on the actual percentage) in antisemitism acts, but anti Muslim sentiments were just “on the rise.”
It’s a double standard depending on who they’re talking about.
The one that I saw was early on, after Hamas attacked, the news reported the number of deaths from “the Hamas invasion”. After that, when Israel retaliated and started killing Palestinians, the news was reporting “the total number killed since the beginning of the Hamas invasion”. They lumped all of the deaths from both sides together and framed it as if they were all attributed to Hamas, even though Israel had killed several times as many people by that point.
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Would Hamas have attacked Israel if Palestinians hadn’t been subjected to atrocities for decades?
Hamas is not Palestinian resistance. Hamas stockpiles food, water, and medicine while the Palestinians starve, and they seize aid meant for them – the EU had a project to improve water infrastructure in Palestine. Hamas dismantled the whole thing after they left to use as weapons.
If you need any more confirmation, note that Hamas leadership is a bunch of rich moguls living it up in the UAE.
We can support Palestine while decrying Hamas and recognizing them as a second blight on the innocent people.
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It’s a double standard depending on who they’re talking about.
Always has been, always.
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Eh, singling out a heterogeneous group of people and advocating for them to be attacked/killed for the actions of a part of that group is so far along the path of fascism as to be indistinguishable from the far right in Israel. Don’t succumb to the dark side Luke.
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No they stabbed people in West Bank.
Maybe. Because the Israeli courts routinely over charge and convict Palestinians on little to no evidence.
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A. You got a source for that?
B. Out of how many released again?
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People? Or israelis?
How were you able to type this out without becoming self-conscious?
Also note that holding hostages is an international war crime, while keeping prisoners is not. I’ve regularly noticed this language choice on NPR (a public radio station in the US).
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Took civilians to a court, you say? For what? The crime of being Palestinians in the wrong place where they could be held conveniently stockpiled for later exchange? You did say they were just civilians, no? What sort of court is this? The hostage court?
Pfahahaha, I guess decorum is all you need to get away with abusing peoples human rights.
Ohh yeah. Media lives to throw details into the bin in order to drive a narrative. I think it would take a soldier familiar with the rules on prisoners of war digging for information to realize that Hamas really tried to abide by those rules for their “hostages”. It is however still a very decentralized organization and they can’t enforce such things as well as a professional military.
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Yup, all these statements are accurate truths, that’s why those words are being used. Israel is releasing prisoners while Hamas is returning hostages.
I hate how people treat genocide and other crimes against humanity as a reason to take teams and treat it like “you’re either with team a or team b”.
Any comment here criticizing one thing is taken as approval of “the other team” and I personally find that horrendous.
I bet you feel enlightened with your centrist take.
I don’t know if you realise but people can acknowledge that Hamas did bad things to civilians as well as Israel. The difference is some people can also acknowledge that the only reason Hamas exists is because Israel is a settler colonial state. Without Israel’s crimes against humanity, there would be no need for Hamas to exist. People also have the ability to recognise the western media’s attempt to falsely equivocate “both sides” when one is a genocidal attempt at an ethnostate backed by the most powerful nation the world has ever seen (and friends) and the other is a reaction to this.
“For forty years you try to strangle us. And then you criticize us for the way we breathe” ~ Fidel Castro.
Enlightened? Because I said I hate that people are using genocide as an excuse to take one of two sides? The situation isn’t even encompassed in two sides, the country, the government and the people (and in the case of Palestine, also Hamas) are being treated as one monolithic beings with one agreeing mind each when they are not.
I’m sorry if your “if you’re not with me, you’re against me, here’s a quote from a historical figure” routine didn’t pressure me into trivializing crimes against humanity.
Edit: I’d like to point out how I’ve been called centrist for acknowledging there aren’t two sides and this isn’t a sport event deserving of fans.
It’s conversations like this that confuse me because who exactly is commiting genocide? I’m calling the take centrist because you’re making out as if both sides are guilty of genocide when it literally is only one side (the government of Israel, the organisation that the original post refers to). It is a false equivalence. But if you think by me stating support for the liberation of indigenous Palestinians is making it a team sport where I’m somehow trivializing genocide then so be it, that’s what you think.
Hamas’s goal is the destruction of Israel through terrorism. The only thing keeping them from committing genocide (as Israel is capable of) is not having the resources to do so. Both sides want to eradicate the other, but one side is much more capable of doing so. That doesn’t mean that Hamas is somehow less bad.
If a 16th century Native American wanted to destroy the government of the United States of America, would you say they were wrong?
Hamas’ blatant anti-semitism towards all ethnic jews is wrong. Hamas’ desire for Israel to not be a nation anymore is justified.
If a 16th century Native American wanted to destroy the government of the United States of America, would you say they were wrong?
Depends if they attack the government or civilians. Palestine has a right to defend itself, the hamas strategy is not exercising that right just like the idf isn’t exercising their right to defend and instead are committing genocide. That’s the point. Hamas would have my full sympathy and support if their strategy wasn’t terrorism.
I don’t support Hamas just like you don’t. I don’t support the death of civilians, Israeli or Palestinian. What I have a problem with in the general sentiment of this thread is people acting as if the Israeli government’s actions are not the cause of this war. Hamas would not exist if the Israeli government never oppressed Palestinian people first. The PLO wouldn’t exist if the Israeli government didn’t oppress Palestinian people first. Hamas killing innocent civilians wouldn’t have happened if the Israeli govrnement never tried to genocide Palestinians. You can argue that Hamas would commit genocide if they could, but the fact is Israel is the one commiting genocide at the moment. Making out as if both need equal condemning (although they need condemning nonetheless) is equivalent to giving a bully the same punishment as the victim who fights back. They are simply not the same.
Fuck Hamas and fuck Israel. But especially fuck Israel.
I’m confused at your tone. it seems like there’s more fundamental agreeing here than disagreeing. yes, one side has more power and has recklessly abused that power. but they both want to destroy each other’s people, including innocent civilians. that’s objectively terrible and is why there is no good side to take.
Hamas’s goal is to end the oppression and occupation of the Palestinians. There is nothing genocidal about this.
There are Christians living in Gaza and Hamas isn’t committing some crazy religious cleansing on them either. Their problem is with Zionist oppression.
Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors.
Resisting an oppressive fascist ethno-state trying to colonize your land and murder your population is the opposite of genocide.
What you’re saying is like saying Ukrainians fighting against Russia for their freedom is Genocide.
If conversations like this confuse you, why confidently share your opinions in a public forum on a subject that, by your own admission, confuse you?
The definition of a centrist is completely lost on you if you think the comment you’re replying to is a centrist comment.
You’re framing Hamas as being merely a reaction to Israel’s aggression, when they actively work, sometimes in collaboration with Netanyahu1, to maintain the status quo and insure they’re own relevance and power. You’re right that Hamas wouldn’t have a purpose without the occupation, and Hamas knows it.
Hamas isn’t a path to Palestinian freedom, they’re an obstacle to it. Hamas are motherfuckers; don’t defend them.
If we say Israel is responsible for the destruction wrought on her own people in reaction to her crimes, then we must hold Hamas to that standard too. But following logic like this makes everybody and nobody responsible and implies that Israel controls the terrorists and Hamas runs the IDF. It’s also precisely the Justification Netanyahu uses for the bombing.
At the end of the day, Israel is the party with the power to stop this cycle, and that is where I think we should put our attention.
Thanks for the info I wanted to access the article but it’s blocked by a paywall/ email submission to view which I’m not too keen on doing. I know Israel had funded Hamas to maintain its own status quo many years ago but wasn’t privy to the possibility it may still be happening. Was wondering if you had any other sources on this?
non paywall link : https://archive.ph/IBRw5
Thank you
Hamas was literally formed as a reaction to Israeli war crimes against Palestinians in the 1980’s.
And of the two they’re the one that publicly showed a moderating trend, only to have their attempts rebuffed in the mid 2000’s.
They aren’t nice people but understanding how they got where they are clearly tells us to stop supporting Israel.
There’s literally no disagreement between you two. You’re saying the same as them, but adding a historical context of how we got here. That really doesn’t change condemnation of both nor finding the team sports here disgusting.
In America, we citizens haven’t had any significant question where we were presented with more than 2 options as long as i can remember.
Manufactured consent.
Protesting and organizing movement outside the system is the only way the ruling class can be made to do something.
What a load of bs.
Exactly. Folks just prefer extremes, As if they enjoy to keep conflic going.
YES! It’s so frustrating! I’ve never seen any other Topic like that.
Politics? Sports? Religion? Tribalism is pretty much everywhere, probably part of our ancestral hard wiring and DNA.
Are you being sarcastic?
They rounded up another 150 as they released those 150.
They actually have about 7,000 people in “administrative detention” which means people held without charges.
And remember boys and girls, this is not “hostage taking” because - as the simpleton useful idiots never cease to repeat - “it’s legal”.
(Thinking people might start pondering on which laws in their own supposedly Democratic countries are moral and which are nothing more than the hypocritical abuse of “justice” to cover up abuses of power)
Echoes from ghost of the Hague: I was only following orders.
WE will never forget. WE won’t allow Israel to forget either.
And it’s not even “legal legal” either, it’s legal as in “Israel has control of the area because they won’t let the Palestinian Authority rule it on their own, thus they interpret legality as they see fit while outside of the Israeli legal code” legal.
It’s a very “special” kind of “legal” which is transnational so it applies outside the borders of the country that has made that law.
To be more clear. It’s a law made by Israel and enforced in Palestine.
Which is a war crime anywhere else in the world.
Of course we’ll hear the “ThEyRe NoT cItIzEnS sO iTs NoT aPaRtHeId” argument
It’s pretty easy. They basically keep them in cages.
Israel became worse than Hamas. I’m not saying Hamas are the good guys, both sides have killed civilians.
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Israel became worse than Hamas.
Have been since 1949. You know… long before Hamas even existed?
It’s a settler colonial ethnostate lol. It’s always been fundamentally fascist from the beginning.
And getting Jews out of Europe is doing exactly what the Nazis wanted.
The Imperialist countries, specially the US, have learnt nothing from history. They’re literally funding a fascist genocide.
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People who say they violated the laws here, don’t understand what is mean to be apartheid state.
These state have laws and regulations that basically push groups of people until they leave the country or extents.
I would recommend reading more because any ruling party in your country can easily create laws to discriminate against a group of people that could be you.
Yup. I’ll put this here for those that need the explanation:
- Morals
- Ethics
- Laws
These often overlap but are fundamentally different things.
For instance, a country can be morally bankrupt, value a strong code of ethics, and have laws that have nothing to do with either.
Also, you often need to compare entire cultures before you can see problems with equivocating any of the three.
Ah yes, stabbing people is not a crime in non-apartheid states
I love how you linked to an anti-Palestinian subreddit that ran out of “unprovoked” stabbings for their little propaganda clip, so they just included two examples of Palestinians being hassled by Israelis for good measure (security guard and police respectively).
Meanwhile, the Israeli government themselves published a list of 300 people eligible for hostage exchange on which 80% were listed without charge or conviction.
And that’s not even touching upon the whole “administrative detention” nonsense, nor the physical, mental and sexual abuse of children in between torture.
So either you’re purposefully ignorant in pretending that all of the hostages are violent offenders, or you’re in favor of collective punishment.
The latter would be a rather untenable position, because that logic would mean you condone the hostage taking of Israeli civilians for the acts of their government (more so when you consider the conscription laws in Israel).
Yikes, I encourage everyone to read that Save the Children report linked. What’s really fucked up about that, besides to abuse obviously, is that Isreal is a democracy. With saudia arabia and china and whatever other countries with flagrant human rights abuses, you cut the citizens some slack because they’re living under varying degrees of dictatorship. But Isreal is a democracy, the citizens apparently fine with holding children in military black sites for throwing rocks, beating them, sexually abusing them, depriving them of food, water, and legal representation, throwing them in solitary confinement and so on. The Israeli people could stop this, but they choose not to.
Anyway, back to watching our “lessor evil” president write these monsters another giant check for precision guided hospital seekijg bombs. Hmm perhaps I answered my own complaint.
I agree except most Israelis do not support their leader or government, support is at all time lows, just 25% according to some recent poll. Being a democracy does not automatically mean the government is doing the will of the people. Especially when their government discriminates against their own citizens.
Many of the rights you are accorded in Israel stem from your nationality, not your citizenship. Your nationality is determined by your ethnicity and it cannot be changed or challenged.
Meaning an “Arab” Israeli citizen and a Jewish Israeli citizen, while both citizens, enjoy different rights and privileges determined by their “nationality”. This is not merely discrimination in practice, but discrimination by law.
This is intentional. It is an ethnic democracy executing the will of one ethnicity over another. It puts the power in the hands of those who are most likely to be indifferent to the plight of the Palestinians, and takes power away from dissenting voices.
Many of the rights you are accorded in Israel stem from your nationality not your citizenship. Meaning an “Arab” Israeli citizen and a Jewish Israeli citizen, while both citizens, enjoy different rights and privileges determined by their “nationality” [You can read more about this here].
(Aside - that seems to just link me to the top of that article? Is that a bug on my phone or just weird site design)
This is not merely discrimination in practice, but discrimination by law. Adalah have composed a database of discriminatory laws in Israel that disfavor non-Jewish Israelis. For example, the Law of Return and Absentees’ Property Law are but two examples of flagrant racism and discrimination in the Israeli legal system.
Is it just me, or is it really weird that the two headline laws the article touts don’t seem to apply to Israeli citizens regardless of religion or ethnicity?
The law of return favors Jewish non-Israelis over non-Jewish non-Israelis seeking Israeli citizenship, sure. But it only applies to non-Israeli citizens, literally by definition.
Similarly, from what I understand, doesn’t the absentee property law apply to the property of non-Israeli citizens that was “abandoned” during the early days of Israel? It doesn’t seem to make it easier for the government to seize the property of current Arab-Israeli citizens than Jewish Israeli citizens.
The stuff about the JNF lower down is pretty concerning, but that paragraph stuck out as being a bait-and-switch.
You made some good points and it’s fair to be skeptical of the link I posted. I also noticed that they linked to the same page, whether that’s a mistake or international I don’t know.
There is a working link on that page to laws which are intended to thwart terrorists but because of vague language they can be abused to suppress anyone deemed to be a threat.This is far from a smoking gun, but the claims seem plausible.
Yes and No. Netanyahu has had to keep running farther and farther right to find support. At this point it is debatable that most Israelis support him. (Even before this attack.) He is resorting to election interference and passing laws to silence the courts.
Israelis also protest his policies pretty routinely.
Roughly 80% of those on the list were not convicted of any crimes. They were either charged with crimes that had not yet been prosecuted, or were detained under a practice known as administrative detention, whereby Israel holds Palestinians in the occupied territories with no formal charges or evidence presented against them.
Come on buddy, Hams aren’t real terrorists! Their knives are in caramelised sugar and their bullets are marshmallows
Evil apartheid-istic Israel on the other hand…
/s
Yeah the stories, even from IDF veterans, are hair raising. Stuff like rousting Palestinian families every night. And any hint of aggression in response is heavily punished. There is no justice in this system.
Saw one yesterday that they threw tear gas into their hostages cells. The irony of Zionists gassing people…
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Many Arab citizens feel that the state, as well as society at large, not only actively limits them to second-class citizenship, but treats them as enemies, affecting their perception of the de jure versus de facto quality of their citizenship.
What is your point? I’ve only seen people say that when they are denying the genocide commited by Israel. They are pushed out of their homeland and become citizens of Israel, trying to assimilate, it doesn’t mean their culture isn’t being destroyed.
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So teenagers slingshoting stones at poliecmen heads or throwing 10 pound cinder blocks at cars windshield get slaps on the wrist in your countries?
No, but we also don’t bulldoze random houses in foreign territory and send our own settlers there to harass the locals until their children are radicalised.
Well…
Not anymore. Most of the time.
Actually we still do tbh, but there’s just so few of them left now the majority just don’t give a fuck.
I had a really good laugh when everyone had to confront the fact that half of Oklahoma is supposed to be owned by Native Americans. And for a second it looked like SCOTUS was going to enforce that treaty.
AFAIK the thousands being held are being held by “administrative detention” which inherently does not have or require charges to be made.
Of course one can ask if you need to jail teenagers for throwing rocks at police and military. But asking ‘how’ is pretty simple: you can look it up. There are laws and if you violate them, you get jailed.
On the other side: maybe ask Hamas where their victims came from. What did the 23 Thai workers did wrong. Or the 10 Nepaelis.
…or even more depressing: ask them where they are. Rumors go around that Hamas doesn’t know anymore where all hostages are. Since Hamas fighters where allowed to take individual hostages as trophy back home. You can only imagine what they might do to a single, young and beautiful woman whose only crime was to be at the wrong time at the wrong spot.
Israel took more than a thousand detainees without any charges. A lot of them are women and children and they don’t even necessarily come from Gaza.
And you should maybe think a bit less with aesthetics, why wouldn’t the less beautiful women and girls be raped? It seems to me that you unjustly discriminate on who deserves the most pity.
There are laws and if you violate them, you get jailed.
hey, slavery is legal so obey the fucking law and don’t fight for your freedom. after all, you wouldn’t want to be labeled a criminal by slavers, now would you?
Ones a terrorist organisation and the other is meant to be a national state you fucking idiot.
Fun fact, in 2006 we had a chance to welcome them into legitimate governance and work towards peace with them.
Instead we, the western world, rebuffed every attempt they made at being a legitimate government and backed Israel’s blockade and assassination campaign.
Second fun fact, you can’t bomb an ideology. You can only convince people it’s not right, outdated, or no longer useful. In terrorism this is often done through allowing them to operate as a legitimate political party. It’s a lot harder for them to justify martydom to their rank and file if they have a seat in parliament.
They may be terrorists but we turned them away.
That suggests that those jailed have been convicted or even sentenced for crimes. Look up administrative detention.
These are not part of the deal.
So about those laws.
Also wondering which Israeli laws allow for the physical, mental and sexual abuse of children. Perhaps it might be good to change those if they exist.
And since we’re on the topic of laws. Perhaps we should look into Article 2 of the CPPCG, and, if Israel insists these people are prisoners of war, which seems to be the case with the venue of choice being a military court, Article 13 of the Geneva Convention on Prisoners of War.
Surely the “only democracy in the Middle East” will adhere to most supreme of all laws?
When you deal with a terrorist organization with no problem decapitating babies or sending bombs on children, then it’s probably a good idea to make detainees prove they don’t have bombs strapped to them…
You can do that with thermal cameras. Bomb vests are super clear on thermal imagery. Have been for 15 years.
The Thai workers were released in the first wave. Don’t conflate that with other stuff.
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So are terrorists supposed to be only of adult male?
ah yes, the 7200 terrorists, including hundreds of child terrorists. the two and a half 9/11 deaths worth of terrorists
i’m sure most of those are legitimate imprisonments that aren’t at all human rights violations, despite many of those people all not having any charges associated with their arrests. i’m sure the vastly unequal treatment of palestinians vs israelis that includes an indefinite time in captivity facing physical abuse and strip searches along with things like public and private gatherings of 10 or more people being illegal for specifically palestinians isn’t anything to worry about
Since taking hostages is a war crime, the whole “prisoners” thing is an extremely thin veil to circumvent those laws.
Extremely thin, because they use administrative detention and military courts with “secret” evidence for the few that are lucky to see a court in the first place.
Not to mention the litany of human rights violations that occurs in the prisons themselves.
Even POWs are to be treated better than the
administrative detaineeshostages according to the Geneva Convention on Prisoners of War.Considering the butchering, rape, and hostages taken on October 7th and then the mistreatment of Israeli hostages in the past and present, the detention of people caught stabbing, throwing rocks, or supporting terrorist activity is warranted.
So you’re saying that israel doesn’t have any right to protect their own people? I think you forgot to read the fact that these “childrens” must’ve done something to be put into prison or detention, either because they did some crime against israeli or by illegally staying in israel. Do you think they’re too stupid to purposely want to be hated by the whole world by jailing innocent childrens??
So you’re saying that israel doesn’t have any right to protect their own people?
Lol, this is hilarious when you consider Israel and the western world directly funded Hamas and intentionally caused his rise to power. Israel has been causing the immense suffering of Palestinians as well as muslims who are Israeli (who are second-class citizens and treated as subhuman) for decades, but they never got the “right” to defend themselves, they couldn’t defend themselves even if they wanted because they would get obliterated by a vastly superior military might. A radical reactionary government is an obvious response to a greater power oppressing them, genocidal maniacs create genocidal maniacs. Israel doesn’t give a shit about its citizens nor “self-defense”, their government wants an excuse to genocide & subjugate peoples they don’t like and take their land. It’s the modern world, you can find all the evidence like videos you want of the Israeli military blatantly committing war crimes and executing unarmed Palestinians like animals, that is not self-defense.
I think you forgot to read the fact that these “childrens” must’ve done something to be put into prison or detention, either because they did some crime against israeli
Actually no, I’m clearly the one that did the reading here because if you actually knew anything about the detention of Palestinians & other groups in Palestine, you would know that the concentration camps they’re put in don’t require any actual crimes to be committed for them to be held captive there, and there are thousands in those camps who aren’t charged with any crime at all and who weren’t arrested for a crime.
or by illegally staying in israel.
You mean the non-Israeli land that Israel is illegally occupying?
Do you think they’re too stupid to purposely want to be hated by the whole world by jailing innocent childrens??
You think other countries give a shit about crimes against humanity? They’re perfectly willing to turn a blind eye if it’s from a country they support, Germany is too afraid of seeming anti-semitic to tolerate any criticism of Israel and Israel is too strategically and ideologically important to the US (and mang others) for the US to actually take a real stance against them. Many Europeans are also fiercly anti-muslim, spurred from anti-immigrant sentiment due to a lot of 3rd worlders fleeing to Europe. And most of the other countries that are protesting their crimes against humanity don’t exactly affect Israel that much anyways, they rely mostly on countries like the US, China, Germany, etc. Many Israel-aligned countries committed and still commit war crimes all the time, and they don’t give a shit when others do it (like Vietnam when first France and then the US completely fucked up Vietnam and its environment all starting from wanting to maintain imperial holdings and then wanting to destroy the government most people supported, and the UK and rest of the NATO-aligned world supported this injustice, only Sweden protested but it didn’t change much), they only sometimes pretend to care when it’s politically or strategically beneficial.
A little horrors beyond human comprehension won’t affect relations with strongly allied or even in some cases separately-aligned nations much – remember that most of the white world, including the UK and US, was fine with or mostly apathetic towards the persecution of Jews (often turning away Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany when the ethnic cleansing was starting) until the people persecuting Jews attacked them or their allies. They didn’t take action because it would threaten their international relations. Plus look, the US unjustly jails people constantly at a much higher rate than the rest of the world including both the “civilized” and “uncivilized” countries, and for an unreasonably long duration for a lot of crimes many of which shouldn’t even be crimes, but it’s not like that is something the rest of the world actually cares about enough to do anything about.
Which land does israel occupies actually? I mean prior to this war. Gaza? Or the West Bank? Each have their own local authority and they conduct their own election (supposedly, but none was held for such a long time because of their own despute), they have their own constitution, a president and a prime minister. So can you tell me which part are being occupied?
How much do you see israel as a demon, that you cannot think of them as people who are trying to survive? I don’t know where you live, but what would you do if some of your neighbour keep trying to kill one of your family? Knowing that they once brought the whole neighbourhood to attack your home. Should you just let them do as they please?
As rule of war, israel should claim all the land of palestine, from the river to the sea, because they won the war. But they actually gave back gaza and the west bank to the palestinian, and let them have their own government. What more do you expect them to do?
I think you forgot to read the fact that these “children” must’ve done something to be put in prison or detention, either because they did some crime against israeli or by illegally staying in israel. Do you think they’re too stupid to purposely want to be hated by the whole world by jailing innocent childrens?
Bless your heart.
You think they give two shits about me and you hating them? They barely care what the US thinks of them, as long as the US remains a useful idiot that’ll veto any chance at accountability.
Netanyahu is on the record of calling the US a puppet:
I know what America is […]America is a thing you can move very easily, move it in the right direction. They won’t get in the way.
Netanyahu is one person. If you think that a whole organization from top to bottom left and right are being complicit in jailing innocent civilians. You don’t truly understand the complexity of human nature.
You should read up on what the OG Nazis got up to. Or the Japanese at around the same time. Or how Canada treated native children from like before it was a county until about 30 years ago. Or how China treats Tibetan kids or Muslims. Raw chocolate, diamond, emerald suppliers and their “employees”. US border patrol.
You must think really low of everyone here to try arguing that humans are too good to perform evils on an organizational level, because this is just scratching the surface of what groups of our species is capable of.
Keep fighting the good fight.
Considering that this is a population capable of butchering the equivalent of 32x 9/11 deaths (adjusting for Israeli population), and that you’re dealing with a terrorist organization known for dexapiating babies and sending it’s own children with bombs strapped to their bodies, it might be a good idea to make sure your detainees don’t have anything under their clothes…
are we suppose to take the label “terrorist” serious when it comes to the israelis? just because israel labels someone a terrorist it doesn’t make it true.
but i know your thought process. it is based on the false premisse that israel is not a terrorist state.
if israel arrests you on the charges of terrorism it doesn’t make you a terrorist. it makes you an enemy to a “terrorist state”. you can use terror and be a terrorist when fighting israel, but just because you get arrested by idf, it doesn’t automatically makes you a terrorist, imho.
Define terrorist.
uses terror to achieve political goal.
Okay, so how can you relate that definition with what both sides are doing? I mean from a non-bias perspective.
Some guy gets his house burned down. Its terrible, so they find him a new home: its a room in your house. New roommate is intent on getting you to move out so he can take the whole house. He makes it clear that the two of you can never be equals, and that god wants him to have the house. It starts with petty psychological shit but its clear he’s trying to start a confrontation. You retaliate, he retaliates, it becomes a mess of you guys slinging shit. At the end of the day, you were minding your own business, who can blame you for defending yourself. You’ve both done awful shit but you were doing your own thing until this guy came along and declared himself owner of your house.
Thats how I look at isreal/palestine. Hamas is awful. But when you oppress millions of people you can’t be that surprised when some of them become ruthless maniacs hellbent on getting out from under your rule. Just put yourself in Palestinian’s shoes and ask yourself if you’d be alright with it.
Al Queda was terrible too, but we brought it upon ourselves invading the middle east. You can’t crush people under an iron fist and expect them to be cool with it.
I think you got your history messed up. The roommate has always been there and the landlord at that time intended for both of you to live side by side, but you refused, and brought your neighbours to attack your roommate but your roomate emerged victorious. Your neighbour then took part of your room before your roommate took them back. Some times later, your roommate gave it back to you, but you keep threatening to eliminate your roommate. So your roommate had no choice but to prevent you from killing them.
If you see history as it is, you’ll get a new perspective on how events unfold. Undeniably hamas is a terrorists organization who hides behind innocent civilians, and israel is exaggerated in their response, but I can see from their point of view because I see history as it is. This is a war between israel and hamas, and like any other war, unfortunately there are casualties among the civilians (which is very difficult to prevent as long as hamas hides behind them).
Sure, all religious groups in the area have had ties and claims to Jerusalem for Millenia, but the actual nation of Israel was founded in 1948.
If you found a nation on a contested holy site and try to push all the other religious groups out, you will have a huge amount of radical and violent resistance, i’m not really going to support you either.
If the situation was reversed, and the middle east was dominated by jews instead or muslims, and Israel was instead a (somewhat) recently-founded muslim nation surrounded by jewish ones, I wouldn’t feel too bad for the muslim nation that decided to set up shop there and make it your holy capital or something.
Its awful, and the whole religious side of things makes this a never-ending war with no real “moral victor”, but its just hard for me to pretend I don’t see the ridiculousness in all of this. A radical militant group kills/kidnaps 2000 isrealis and the response is to kill 15,000+ palestinians with not just tacit approval but full-blown military support from the largest world powers. We are not even talking about “an eye for an eye making the whole world blind”, we’re talking about trading an eye for a whole human body.
Should Israel have responded? Absolutely. I’m not going to say it should have even been a peaceful response. But what’s happening now is a clear over-correction, a clear attempt to both weaken the Palestinian state as a whole and the Palestinian people themselves. It will breed more violence, and you will inadvertently create groups more radical than hamas, who will point to this and say “they did not go far enough”. The Palestinian people need to reject hamas on their own, and this isn’t going to cause that.
clearly, we should boycott, ~~de-invest ~~ Divestment and sanction israel. just like we do with hamas and the pa.
And we should condemn hamas for the evil things they’ve done.
everyday, in fact international security agencies should do more to help. in fact greater israel should be a international nation new home of the united nations. the us should invade to establish a cease fire until this is established. it is the only way to stop the blood shed. from both sides. after all israeli settlers can’t be left without protection until the law is the same for all greater israel citizens.
That you get down voted for this simple fact is really saying a lot about the Kool-aid consumption of some “Israel critics”.
If they’re terrorists why are you holding them in “administrative detention” indefinitely instead of charging them with crime?
See, that would be a good point to make in a meme. Saying they can’t be terrorists (or some other kind of lawful prisoner) because they’re teenagers or women however is not a good point.
edit: lol @downvotes
simple fact
You misspelled sea-lioning.
Dog whistling too
Everything these people say is literally out of the Hasbara handbook. Full of bad faith lies meant to hide the power imbalance and true nature of Israel’s occupation of the Palestinians. They’re all disgusting.
They’re afraid of a simple question.
Lemmy is full of basement dwelling, terrorist loving, jew hating tankies that consider this issue pure black and white with Israel as total evil oppressing “poor” Palestinians since eternity.
The good news is that there’s only 2 thousand or so of them here posting, commenting and agreeing with each other in their echo chamber, while downvoting all disagreeing opinions.
The bad news is it’s making me consider going back to Reddit again… even though I fucking hate Reddit since that API debacle.
Go back to r/europe, or worldnews there. They are super pro Israel. No tankies or khamas there.
Nah, Truth Social would suit them better.
So, as soon as someone shows joy that their daughter who was about to be locked away for 10 years for throwing stones at an IDF soldier, they must be a terrorist?
Just how sure are you that they were just throwing stones?
If you define basically everything palestinians do as “terrorism”, you’ll have the prisons filled with “terrorists” in no time.
So how do you define “terrorism” exactly?
I don’t define it as civil/non-violent defiance against an occupying power. Or being happy that a family member is released from prison.
Who is being occupied? Israel disengaged from gaza since 2005. Since hamas won the election, they kept threatening israel’s existence, so how do you suggest israel should respond with such threat?
Israel is occupying Palestine (including Gaza and the West Bank). They control water, electricity and imports into Gaza and you claim they “disengaged”?
Also: There are Palestinians in Israel. They don’t have the same rights that non-jewish people living there do. I.e. They get locked away when showing joy that their family members can leave prisons for ridiculous charges.
Ehm, civil-non-violent, eh? One of the released women is Amani Hashim (sp?) 37 y.o. from the West Bank who used her car to ram an Israeli soldier on a check point, seriously injuring him, and then waved a knife on others, while shouting religious slogans… Got convicted and sentenced to 10 years in prison.
I can imagine what would have happened, if that checkpoint wouldn’t be there…
https://www.verdicts.co.il/ע-פ-6533-18-אמאני-חשים-נגד-מדינת-ישראל-24-02-2020/
You do know what kind of ethnic cleansing and illegal settlement the IDF is currently carrying out in the west bank? Whah kind of resistance do you expect?
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Yes, and throwing stones is enough to lock up a child.
Or stabbing people! How can they do this to those young ones who just want to stab other people 😭
There was in total 1 person who stabbed someone.
And no context as to why she stabbed someone. Could have been justified for all we know.
Most likely planted. These military courts have 99 percent conviction rate anyway. Its a fascist system meant to terrorise the occupied people. The Israelis on the other hand have civil courts, not military, that difference has a name: apartheid.
Could have been justified for all we know.
All the arrests could have been justified for all we know.
It’s also enough to kill someone
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My mom taught me to not kick millions of people out of their homes, start and apartheid state, arrest any dissenters, commit numerous war crimes, and then drop over 6,000 bombs on millions of innocent people in two months time. Not sure why she taught me that.
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You’re aware that a greater number of Jews were dispelled from their homes than Arabs in the 40s, Right? You want the right to return, then give those people back their homes too.
Well I don’t want the right to return, my direct ancestors are not from the middle east. But I’m happy to support any Jewish homes be returned to them. But they wouldn’t be returning to Israel, since the majority of people living there in the 1940s we’re Muslim (Wiki, Demographic history of Palestine) so you must be just saying in general, globally, more Jewish people were displaced. Maybe?? But that seems like a false equivalence to me.
You’re aware that Arab Israelis sit in political office, serve in the IDF right? Hardly sn apartheid situation there. How many Arabs have given up their citizenship? Seems like if they weren’t being treated properly, you’d hear about it wouldn’t you? I’m seeing plenty of support for Israel including Arabs willingly rejoining their idf units.
You must not be listening if you haven’t heard about poor treatment (CNN, The war has forced Israel’s Arab citizens to explain that no, they are not Hamas) Here’s an excerpt if you don’t want to click; “Some speak fluent Hebrew and live in mixed communities such as Haifa, while others reside in segregated towns and say they feel like second-class citizens due to discrimination from Israeli authorities.” Oh, here’s another fun excerpt; “His ancestors were evacuated from Iqrit, a village north of Haifa, by Israeli forces during the 1948 war. They were told they would be able to come back in a few weeks, but ultimately were not allowed to, Ashkar said. Israel’s Supreme Court later ruled the eviction was illegal and said the families of Igrit should be allowed to return to their land – but before they were able to do so, the IDF razed the village to the ground in the 1950s. ‘It’s complicated when you are not sure where you belong. I try to avoid thinking about it too much,’ Ashkar said.”
You’re aware that Palestinians have fired more rockets into Israel since 10/7 than the other way around right?
That’s likely true, however a bit misleading. Israel dropped two 2,000 ton bombs creating a 40 foot crater if that gives you any idea of the level of destruction they’re causing daily. Meanwhile, Hamas is using homemade rockets made of old water pipes which rarely get through Israel’s defenses. But sure, both sides are bad here, and I stand by my original statement criticizing Israel.
Your Mom probably needs to get off tik tok and go learn some facts.
My mom doesn’t watch tiktok, she’s getting her misinformation from Facebook. But I agree she needs to listen to me more haha
Teach your kids to roll over and fellate colonial invaders, got it
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You must know how ridiculous you sound, right?
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Jews are 2000 years removed from any connection to Palestine. The Zionist movement didn’t even originally want Palestine. They were looking to settle in Africa. And the issue is not whether they have ancestral ties to Palestine, but that they have settled and displaced, and actively continue to do so, the current population indigenous to the region with generations of continuous residence going back to that very same time 2000 years ago
Are you trying to state that the region was not a British colony and an Ottoman one prior to that?
I’m not sure why you think Palestine being under the control of various imperial powers means the people don’t exist. This is like saying there is no Scotland because it is under the control of the British empire
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… Huh? What am I missing where prisoner exchanges aren’t common in combat zones?
Why wouldn’t they be evacuating women and children out of them? Especially in contested areas.
Israel is trying to sell the story that they are victims to Palestinian aggression. The prisoner trade undermines that story because this shows that Israel has a lot of prisoners who are not warfighters. This begs the questions: why is Israel arresting so many civilians, and how are they able to pull that off? The answer is that Israel is the vastly dominant force in this conflict.
Palestinians aren’t evacuating because they have no where to go. Egypt has closed its borders to them, and Israel surrounds them otherwise. Israel has also made evacuations very difficult. There have been reports of Israel giving mere hours notice to evacuate and then attacking early anyway.
Palestinians not evacuating because if they do they will never be allowed back. People who evacuated in prior years, went to Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Kuwait, Qatar and many other countries, to avoid the war, are not allowed to go back. Isreal claimed their homes as “they left it empty” among other “legal” laws. Now they don’t get the citizenship, they can’t go back, and if they do they will find a settlers from New York living there.
… Right, they’re not war fighters.
They’re presumably in combat zones though. You can’t just leave women and children there right? They would evacuate them. They then find out they’re Palestinian so they hold them for prisoner exchanges. Am I just missing something about needing to protect them or are you wanting Israel to just leave them be in an active combat zone where they could be attacked or struck with gunfire?
Where exactly are Palestinians supposed to go to not be in a war zone?
I’ll wait for you to realize how boneheaded your argument is if you think it through.
Why are you agreeing with me but pretending like it’s a gotcha?
They’re going to be safer in custody rather than in the middle of a firefight between Hamas and Israel lmfao.
Wow, just wow.
Here is a protip for your life, Don’t worry it’s never too late (even after that last comment) to make a change:
It’s so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don’t say it.
Do you genuinely believe allowing unknown women and children to run around in a fire fight between you and the enemy is okay? You’re saying you’d just leave them there to get shot?
You understand how Hamas works right? You’d prefer Israel put a bullet in them instead?
Not even gonna bother to downvote your comment. It’s too much like punching a puppy.
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Oh, good, sexism with my morning lemmy.
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Maybe a Lemmy bug and he was commenting somewhere else? Because otherwise it makes no sense.
I think judging by the other comments, this zionist shit is trying to argue that saying Palestinian women and children were unjustly locked up is sexist…
* Zionists can be Christian too, just like there are Palestinian Christians, who are in danger of being lost forever, their bloodlines dating back to the time of Christ. It was not an antisemitic comment, but since there are many people who think like the person replying it’s been edited.
You can be for peace in Gaza without using disgusting antisemitic language like "zionist rat.
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Hey I just convicted you of harming public order. Get in prison.
What’s that? You didn’t do anything? Oh no that doesn’t matter, you were convicted by an illegal military court.
What a disingenuous piece of quote sniping. Scroll down a little bit and you see this:
Around 8,300 Palestinian prisoners are currently held in Israeli jails, said Qadura Fares, head of the Palestinian Commission for Detainees and Ex-Prisoners’ Affairs.
More than 3,000 of them are being held in what Israel calls “administrative detention,” Fares told CNN, adding that this means they are being held without knowing the charges against them, and without an ongoing legal process.
And you go to that extremely left publication, NBC, and you see this:
Roughly 80% of those on the list were not convicted of any crimes. They were either charged with crimes that had not yet been prosecuted, or were detained under a practice known as administrative detention, whereby Israel holds Palestinians in the occupied territories with no formal charges or evidence presented against them.
Honestly, what was the point of posting this?
You see, that’s because Israel didn’t kill the women and children…
I guess not all of them… Kudos?
