Adopting is great. Not everyone should do it.
Autism is difficult. Their lives are not ruined.
I can see some of the arguments of antinatalists but the online culture of it seems to have a nihilism/blackpill problem.
It’s autism, not a death sentence.
To me, it seems like online discussions for any stance, has to turn to it’s most extreme. It’s like their way or highway type of deal. Whatever happened to nuanced discussion, I wonder.
I think it stems from the more difficult cases, and people failing to realize the actual suffering that comes with that.
As with all extremes, a lot of emotions are involved. People who see / experience the hardships don’t feel heard. As the general tendency is that one needs to be alive and that this is good, this hurts people who do not want to live (like this).
Going to a lot of trouble to conceive, and bringing triple the amount of possible suffering that people experience can be felt as worse than a death sentence. Therefore people feel the need to be vocal about this.
But in the end I agree, there is nuance. But there is the extreme as well, which weighs heavier here?
Exactly this.
A life like the ones that suffer, you just wouldn’t wish upon someone innocent. Though going full eugenics is a bit too far off the end there. I get it, but I don’t agree that everyone should avoid having children.
Though it does pain me to see this one couple (both autistic) have a child without considering how the kid will be affected. Despite one of them having a low-functioning brother who is a burden (and I don’t mean lightly) on their mother and she never helps her out.
It’s an extreme case here. I just hope their daughter will have a good life.
you’re right but don’t underestimate redditor’s self righteousness so fast. They convinced themselves they are absolutely right and moral so everyone who thinks differently is evil and the one who aren’t as radicals are idiot. This post stems first from a posture which is basically “I know EXACTLY how to live the perfect healthy life and everyone who thinks differently is brainwashed and stupid”
I love your username
I love lamp
Why do they think autism is some sort of horror story where kids suffer in agony or something?
Autism Speaks played a huuuge part in making that the dominant narrative about autism for the past 20 years or so.
In the 00s (maybe early 10s?) one of the videos they made for parents of newly diagnosed children had a parent talking about how she was considering driving off a bridge to kill herself and her autistic child, but didn’t because her non-autistic child was also in the car. This was presented as totally normal and just a way to prepare for how an autistic child will ruin your life.
Autism Speaks is disgusting. What an awful organization. I wish more people knew that.
I didn’t know until I saw it getting trashed on the autism subreddit and asked why… So keep getting the word out!
I will. I don’t have ASD but several of my loved ones do and I’m glad Autism Speaks hasn’t gotten to them and made them ashamed of who they are.
I had no idea that existed. Wtf
But, there must be ways to manage the ill effects of Autism. Parents can talk to experts, instead dealing with it on their own.
I get what you’re saying, and caretakers certainly deserve support, even (especially!) when they’re talking about wanting to kill their own child, even if for no other reason than the child’s safety.
IMO Autism Speaks’ biggest issue is that their money comes from marketing autism as a horrible disease that affects only or primarily children, which only increases stigma against autistic people of all ages. They also have the problem of having no autistic members involved in a meaningful capacity in the organization, and AFAIK the only autistic member of their board of directors left because they were essentially ignored. That absolutely flies in the face of decades of disability advocacy, where a common refrain is “nothing about us without us.”
TL;DR: caretakers deserve support but Autism Speaks is super awful.
Malicious misinformation is nothing new I guess.
very sane behaviour regarding your child.
When that kind of parents how their autistic child is very difficult and that it keeps getting worse I am always feeling like : Karen, only 10 % of your kid issues are caused by his autism, the 90% are 100% because you treat him like shit and he is turbo-traumatized
Suicide is one of the top three causes of death for autistic people. The other two are heart disease and epilepsy complications, and on average we die under 50 years of age.
What they don’t understand though is that the suicide part isn’t caused by autism. It’s caused by people being horrible to each other. Or in other words: people with autism die because people without it make living hell for them.
Yes, but that’s not due to autism, that’s due to the way society treats autistic people.
that’s due to the way society treats autistic people.
So when is that going to change
I’d love to know.
My daughter has it, and I’d say about 5-10 years ago it changed. The amount of acceptance is so much higher than it used to be. Obviously we need work, but hell in my city there are special times at both grocery stores and movie theatres for neuro-diverse people. The difference to a decade ago is extreme.
It’s beginning to change in the academic world. The deficit model is falling for the difference/diversity paradigm.
no
supposedly
Do tell us your theory.
no thanks, but if youve got some proof id be happy to read it
So you don’t have any idea why so many people on the spectrum commit suicide but you don’t think it’s the way they’re regularly mistreated?
i think that the mistreatment of folks with autism is not enough to explain to have this high of a suicide rate, and that autism does just make life harder to deal with, regardless of discrimination
actually everyone treat others like shit. But what NT have is a much stronger upport circle and fewer difference.
By fewer difference I mean that you cant pick on someone that everyone around him does : A boss can’t really bully a NT for using implicite dicourse when all of their collegues does the exact same, they would immediately realise something is wrong. The average NT knowing jackshit about autism, it can be easy to trick them into thinking that ND should “just make an effort” to understand implicite discourse.
That’s sad part, we are technically all targeted with the same amount of flak so if you are slightly out of cover, you get blasted away
actually everyone treat others like shit.
That’s simply not true.
that might be an exageration but that is surprisingly common
It’s also the 2nd leading cause of death for 2SLGBTQ+ youth:
The Trevor Project’s 2022 National Survey on LGBTQ Youth Mental Health found that 45% of LGBTQ youth seriously considered attempting suicide in the past year, including more than half of transgender and nonbinary youth.
So there’s a lot more suffering in general for anyone basically not white, straight, (and depending on circumstances, male). Autism isn’t a death sentence. While people with severe autism struggle a lot more than most, they can have very good fulfilling lives. Source: My daughter (23) has (moderate) autism and her best friend (23) has severe.
can add the healthy for white and straight if you’re in the USA. Also just methodologically poc are faced with very different risk with racially motivated crimes and the fact that ethnic getthoisation create strong social support structures will help curb suicidal tendencies.
Even if the struggles can be similar, the supplementary problem with LGBTQ+, is loneliness. There are actually very few of them, so finding people like you that understand your struggles is very difficult. That really hit me when I talked for the first time with people leading association supporting LGBTQ, most of the work is reaching out to people to tell them they are not alone
It’s a mix of the ABA industry, early researchers and socio-environmental issues.
Early researchers cultivate the myth of the normative human. Autists were an altered version of human that has to be corrected. If a human wasn’t corrected to match the norm, it could not be happy in life and will suffer it’s entire life.
So autists have to be corrected (we know it’s false) to be happy whatever the means. It ended with electric shock and others stuffs seen during WW2. This is how ABA was created. It relies on the fears of autists not being happy until they are corrected.
ABA, PBT and all the others acronyms has built an industry worth a lot of money. They finance more research on the field with huge standard, COI and consent issues among others. They need to keep the fear in the population to keep the business up.
The third is the new way to see autism. The struggles of autists are mostly socio-environmental. It means that issues aren’t the person and autism. It’s a lack of acceptance of the diversity by the neurological majority. It implies discrimination, patronizing, and violence against autists.
Early researchers cultivate the myth of the normative human.
We are still there with mental illness. People have this idea that there are “normal” people and those who require therapy, as if there is a single person on earth that didn’t come out of their childhood with some level of trauma.
Well actually not that much. Two things. First, some trauma can be dealt with thanks to your support circle. Second, the thing is our experience of others is never representative of the overall society. You could look at my social circle and claim it as an argument. But that is not taking in account that my circle is small and not made of average people.
Lastly. Everyone suffered a cold once, they were not damned, not everyone is constantly sick. Though you wouldn’t say there is no difference between sick and healthy people. Still everyone will go to the doctor once. In my country that is this approach much closer to physiological medicine that mental health professional promote.
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Taking a quick look at the comments I see we’re back to 2000s autism speaks bullshit.
Autistic people aren’t suffering unless you’re putting them in a system that treats them as subhuman.
Autistic people aren’t suffering unless you’re putting them in a system that treats them as subhuman.
Ah, I see you’re familiar with society as well.
I mean, let’s face it, I’ve seen one meme where autism is described as a condition where everyone else around them has a disorder where they say things they don’t mean, where they don’t care about structure, fail to focus strictly on singular topics, have unreliable memories, drop weird hints and stare creepily into eyeballs. And the people with autism are the ones with the disorder, because there are way more of the others.
Yes most autistic people shouldn’t suffer if we dismantle the oppressive societal constructs and stigma around the condition and treat them as human.
Most people shouldn’t suffer if we break down the social constructs and stigma around them, from race, gender and sex, class, and many other factors.
Antinatalism is not about selectively culling autistic people. It is about the realization that society sucks and the societal constructs we have are likely to increase suffering and so we shouldn’t have kids anymore until those issues are resolved.
I am gay, and a racial minority, and an antinatalist. I would hate to have a child knowing they would likely have to face racial discrimination just as much as I do not find it moral to have a child because they may be gay, or autistic, or gender nonconforming, or poor. All those things would likely increase their suffering.
But I wouldn’t mind adopting any of those kids, even an autistic child, because live people are people and deserve love and compassion. Antinatalism is about the non-alive children that don’t exist and the stance that they shouldn’t ever come to be, no matter what they end up being because in our current world, live likely won’t be easy, they would likely contribute to the global environment crisis, and will likely increase the suffering in the world. And also they cannot consent to being forced into existence.
I would hate to have a child knowing they would likely have to face racial discrimination
Yep easier to die than dealing with the problem and, you know trying to do something. You know thank god everyone before us choose that instead of striving for social progress, that’s precisely why society has been steadily progressing towards amelioration for at the VERY least the past 500 years.
I do not find it moral to have a child because they may be gay, or autistic, or gender nonconforming, or poor
So… that, my friend, is turbo-eugenics. Yes, because you finding it immoral to have kids because they could be those things means that, if you had a mean to have kids, without those risks it would at least be less immoral. Oh and before you start to find excuse : making every argument for something and just saying at the end that it is bad is not being against something.
Autistic people aren’t suffering unless you’re putting them in a system that treats them as subhuman.
While that is true for many of us, it’s not true for all of us. But I’m still sure most of us still like being alive, so i’m not disagreeing with the sentiment behind your argument.
I’m not speaking for autistic people here, but I am speaking as parent to two children (now adults) on the spectrum.
Autistic children do not ruin your life and do not have ruined lives themselves. As with all parenting, sometimes things are very, very difficult and sometimes things are very, very easy. This isn’t unique to raising a neurodiverse child, this is just parenting. The unique challenges that parenting a neurodiverse child brings are 99% of the time caused by how society thinks these children/adults are and assumptions about whats best for them without actually asking them rather than any sort of intrinsic issue caused by their autism or ADHD or any other neurological difference. For the remaining 1% of the time, you just do your best.
The narrative that neurological difference, in particular autism, ruins lives has, in its modern form, been with us since Andrew Wakefield first perpetuated his fraudulent claims of vaccine damage causing autism. It was spread by antivaxx/autism activist parent groups like Jenny McCarthy’s Generation Rescue and the truly despicable people at Autism Speaks. These are the people who’ve ruined lives.
I like you. I have 2 autistic kids (still kids) and one neurotypical kid. There is no difference in raising them. Every kid has their unique challenges. I never raise my children differently unless it requires it.
Are you certain your adult children don’t resent being born with autism?
Because I put on a hella front for my mom. Just throwing that out there.
I’m not naive (or arrogant) enough to think I know everything my kids are thinking and neither am I suggesting their lives are 100% perfect but all of them (on the spectrum or not) are all pretty forthright, confident adults. When they were teens they of course went through some shit related to their being autistic, but none of that was because they were autistic, it was down to how other people/situations made them feel because they were autistic. I’m as sure as any parent can ever be that I’ve never detected any kind of prolonged resentment or unhappiness at the fact of their autism.
We never taught them that ‘autism is a superpower’ because it isn’t. Sometimes it has advantages and sometimes there are disadvantages and describing someone elses life as superpowered puts an unrealistic expectation of happiness and accomplishment on them. By the same token, neither are their lives a ruin and my life as their parent most certainly wasn’t ruined.
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I disagree, its not in my opinion a meaningless distinction at all. A difficulty in cognition might prevent a person from reading War And Peace. Thats a direct result of having a learning disability. Someone with a visual disability who cannot access audio books or braille versions of War And Peace is not being affected by their disability but by the fact an accessible version is not available.
You might argue the end result is the same - an inability to read War And Peace - but the point is that for the person with a visual disability the situation is fixable if society is prepared to make the effort.
In regards to your situation you’ve had terrible experiences but they are not down to the fact youre autistic, they’re down to the fact your NT ‘friends’ weren’t really friends at all. I’m sorry they let you down but I’m pretty sure I could find similar stories where nobody in the story was autistic.
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I never claimed autism wasn’t a disability. The fact that autistic people are disabled in some ways isn’t in question. But its neither just a disability or - like all disabilities - something that isn’t disabling by virtue of the world its part of rather than its intrinsic nature.
For example, you say an autistic person cannot experience social interaction in the same way as a non autistic person. True. But the non autistic person can, with very little adjustment, be aware of that. My kids have good relationships with NT friends and whilst they might not experience them in the same way as NT friendships, they still find them fulfilling.
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The fundamental problem is that autistic people, broadly speaking, don’t fit with neurotypical people. A high-functioning autistic person will eventually realize that, and realize just how utterly alone they are in life. They will realize that the people they think of as friends will never think of them as a friend.
First, I’m sorry for what you’ve been through. But from my personal experience, I know that I have three friends who have autism and/or ADHD. In each case, I did not know this until they told me. If I can’t even know who is autistic without them telling me, how can I treat them differently?
Now I understand that it is possible that some behaviours of mine could make my autistic friends uncomfortable, while not affecting my other friends. But if I am doing something like that, it is out of ignorance rather than malice, and I would of course adjust my behaviour if asked to.
So I don’t get why you think autistic people ‘don’t fit with neurotypical people’. I have friends who speak other languages, and autism is also, in a sense, speaking a different ‘body language’. With some effort, we should be able to improve communication.
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Can you be more specific? Why cannot autistic people fit in with others? Is it that others recognise them as being different and exclude them? Or is it that there are differences in the way we speak or behave that make you uncomfortable? And if it is the latter, what in particular should we change?
Yes 95% of your friends aren’t your best friends. They have their own struggle and hardships to deal with. So yes, in your situation both side needed to focus on themselves.
Lastly before being worried about the general population not including you in their social circles, did you ask yourself why you would be in their circles ? Because you were colleagues ? Or neighbour. I also am in a situation were I have virtually no friends and it fucking hurts. Loneliness fucking hurts, it ache the minds and psychology its among the worst pain I ever felt.
Though in the past years I’ve looked not for others but for things that passionated me first. And there I found people which liked me and that I liked. Some people are wildly different than me, others are likeminded but we connected. I don’t know my classmates but I have a few friends among my martial arts club. And I am not unhappy of the lack of connexion I have with my class, I don’t think we’d really fit. Despite the social constructs that claims a student’s first circle must be his class, I don’t, and its fine, I just look elsewhere for people, in place where I fit.
sounds like you resent your mom
Agreed! I am also super grateful for the unique experiences autism has provided our family (a trip to the fan museum and carwash show, among others).
Tell me more about this car wash show…ヾ(⌐■_■)ノ♪
The International Carwash Show happens each year in Las Vegas. It is all sorts of people in the industry: owners, manufacturers, services etc. Everyone was so nice. They even let us walk through the carwash equipment when it was turned on!
From personal experience, the ability of people in the spectrum to feel happiness depends entirely on whether their parents were willing to make adjustments to see their children feel well. Most will want their child to be just like every other one and will damage them deeply in the pursuit of that.
just popping in to say I love being alive and I’m thankful for my parents keeping me! I made friends with a seagull today. couldn’t have done that if I was never born. fuck yeah!
I made friends with a seagull today.
I need more details about this.
This
Experience has shown me that the people who are thankful for their life is in the minority compared to the people who suffer their life.
That sucks
I have seen people behave in all sorts of ways
people who suffer their life have a need to express it. People who are fine don’t. Simple survivor bias
That… is a dangerous skill Seagulls are embodiement of pure chaos, be careful with such power
Antinatalism is a more deranged branch of eugenics. It’s not simply “promoting eugenics” it’s a belief that giving birth is the greatest evil one can inflict upon a child and the world at large.
That they’d clearly see us as subhuman isn’t surprising given that they at best want our entire species to voluntarily go extinct. Their entire worldview is best summed up as gentle genocide is good.
It’s like these people have forgotten there are people with different set of beliefs than their own.
No matter how justified your beliefs are, you cannot impose them on others. This is true for religions and this is true for every single ideological stance out there.
They’re nuts, for sure.
It’s also ridiculously cruel to create a consciousness knowing it’ll die.
Unless you are religious and believe in eternal torment after death, death isn’t cruel, it’s simply an end to life, a permanent return to nonexistence no more or less cruel than having never been born.
Additionally, while they aren’t exactly wrong in that going from nonexistence to existence results in an infinite increase in potential for suffering, that holds true for joy/happiness/pleasure.
Imo bringing someone into being is not cruel nor wonderful, not moral nor immoral. It simply is.
This is the only good logical argument I’ve heard against it and I’m on board. People get too emotional talking about this and antinatalists generally approach this from a point of logic.
Most of the arguments I’ve seen so far are from sheltered first world people that have never suffered. They almost believe it’s a choice or that depression is just being really sad.
They deny that depression can come up from actual consistently repeated experiences that someone can have no control over.
The fact that most people on planet earth are suffering is what drives the idea. If your consciousness randomly hopped to the next person born on earth, would you want to live that life?
It’s also ridiculously cruel to create a consciousness knowing it’ll die.
No, it isn’t. There, now we’re on equal rhetorical footing unless you’d like to support that incredibly bold statement with … anything? A link? A train of thought?
What is the alternative? Giving up on humanity existing?
We can’t change that this how life exists in our reality.
By that logic, wouldn’t the very existence of conscious life be cruel?
I would say absolutely YES.
Not sure how a product of chaos and randomness can really have cruelty, as it supposes intent, no?
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I don’t have ASD but I have ADHD, and based on my experience I think it’s extremely fair to see knowingly inflicting upon another living being a disability that causes great pain and suffering throughout their entire life, as fucked up and immoral
It’s like pugs and pitbulls, many people can agree in the thought “why are we intentionally creating more canines with terrible disabilities which badly hurt them for the rest of their life?”, so why is it so bad when the same logic is applied to humans?
I think it’s dumb to describe it as “eugenics”, considering that’s a term almost entirely associated in the modern day with Nazism, forced imprisonment/torture/forced sterilization of certain groups, and racist beliefs. Wheras this seems concerned with wanting people to not suffer nearly as much after they’re born, so they’re expressing how they’re upset that people chose to create a new life with more suffering than average when there’s tons of equally good alternatives, and I think that’s pretty different than flat out promoting genocide…
What’s wrong with adoption anyways? It’s pretty selfish to bring a new life into this world for your own personal satisfaction when you could literally just take a child who’s already out there suffering and make them not suffer for no extra loss.
I find it stupid that they describe it as “ruined lives” though. Especially for the parents, like wtf just be a good parent? It’s not like most parents have a kid with no difficult challenges to face whatsoever. When you become a parent you sign up to being exposed to any and every possibility that could come from a kid. If you become a parent and then go “woe is me, I didn’t expect autism so I can’t deal with this, don’t blame me for not parenting correctly” then you shouldn’t have become a parent. The only way parents can “ruin” their own lives is if they’re a shitty parent, which unfortunately a majority of people are…
disability that causes great pain and suffering throughout their entire life
Motherfucker what are you talking about? I am literally just here to vibe, it’s the fault of the current system for refusing to support any kind of variety. Autism isn’t fucking osteoporosis, I’m not in pain, I’m just fucking different.
Autistic people aren’t suffering unless you’re putting them in a system which refuses to treat them as anything other than subhuman.
Remind me when we’re not going to be in a system which refuses to treat disabled people properly? We live in a world built against disabled people. That is NOT going to change soon. We are corporatist and in most of the first world the right-wing is on the rise. Look at Italy, look at most of western Europe actually. Look how much attention people like DeSantis got before blowing it, and how popular it is to hate on groups like disabled more than it has ever been in recent years – shit it only getting worse. Why bring an innocent kid into that?
Besides, neurodevolopmental disorders in many people can objectively just inflict suffering completely detached from the “system”. I’ve seen them firsthand with both myself and friends with ASD. Especially socially. Obviously won’t apply to every mentally disabled person, but it’s extremely high likelihood – I meet almost entirely people with ASD and/or ADHD who feel extremely lonely and can’t find comfort socially.
Even with treatment ADHD fucks me and many others over in ways completely unrelated to the system. Friends with ASD describe it similarly, especially when ASD doesn’t have as many options in terms of treatment compared to ADHD. When it comes to ADHD, I can’t enjoy myself with hobbies or the satisfaction of my productivity as a person without such a disorder can, I can’t find happiness in my own hobbies if I can’t do them, and I spend many days being upset that I can’t make myself do the stuff I want to do even if I have medication. I can say with confidence I would 100% be happier if I was born in the same circumstances but without ADHD. And this is an extremely common sentiment for neurodevelopmental disorders, you can see it all over the thread.
I do great socially, I just don’t have a lot of friends my age I guess, most of my friends are at least 5-6 years older than me, but I grew up mostly around adults because the neighborhood I grew up in (and still live in) did not have many kids.
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First of all, unlike disorders, everyone has the same chances when it comes to what sex their kids will be – being a woman doesn’t make you more likely to have a girl (obviously). Meanwhile people with disorders have a VERY HIGH likelihood of passing them down to their kids. Some LGBT is partially genetic, although things like environment and whether you’re ND play a much greater role.
Secondly, being LGBT or a woman in most first world countries isn’t comparable to being disabled – and LGBT rights/equality are extremely high in more civilized places like Amsterdam – but to answer your question:
No, I wouldn’t want to have a girl in this society, or anything before it – I mean to be honest I wouldn’t want any children, but I think women in this age are still seen by the people who have the power in this society as targets/objects. I don’t want to subject my child to all the disadvantages and potential horrors caused just by being a woman.
For LGBT it’s more complicated – there are places which you’ll get a life-ruining amount of bias because you’re gay or ace or trans, and there are places which you will be mostly accepted and you’ll not face nearly the amount of discrimination as most people with Autism or ADHD would. I wouldn’t intentionally have an ultra gay kid if I were for some reason permanently stuck in an extremely hateful part of the south. But if I lived in a mostly liberal or leftist city that’s known for being LGBT-friendly? Then it doesn’t matter.
That’s the discrimination difference. If you’re gay, there’s plenty of places that don’t care. Plus it doesn’t affect your daily functioning or your workflow or whatever. But if you have a mid case of ADHD or Autism, then that will be held against you practically everywhere by a majority of people. Of course, societal interactions aren’t the only difference.
And what’s the good in “society might eventually change for the better” if society’s like that now? Should I subject my kid to suffering in the present just because it “might eventually get better maybe” with no guarantee as to a ‘when’, ‘how’, or even an ‘if’? I’d gladly sacrifice myself to advance the rights of NDs, but I won’t sacrifice a possible child who can’t even consent to it.
If you see your suffering kid’s existence as “an act of spite” against a dysfunctional system… I can’t deny that sounds pretty immoral to me. I’m not here to insult you, but the way I see it is: the present is the way it is, I’m not going to sacrifice an unconsenting child just to spite the system or as a “well they want us gone, i’m not gonna give them what they want”. It’s not heroic, it’s not brave, it’s not honourable. The kid certainly isn’t going to feel honor when he’s being completely fucked over by society. (to quote “All Quiet on the Western Front” – “Honor? My son died in the war, and he doesn’t feel any honor!”)
It’s immoral – giving birth (a completely selfish act) to a child where you KNOW they have an atypically high likelihood of having something that will most likely cause them a lot of suffering in life.
I see the argument “a lot of blind people like existence so knowingly giving someone a disability isn’t bad” with the same weight as “it’s cold outside a lot of days so global warming isn’t a problem”. Like sure? It’s not like everyone who’s Autistic or ADHD or has a terminal illness or has down syndrome or bipolar or depressed is going to hate their life. But you, by willingly giving someone those things, are giving them something that most often absolutely fucks people over in ways uncomprehendable to people without disabilities. It doesn’t matter if it’s not guaranteed to make you unhappy, you are taking a large inherent risk.
Also, as a sidenote, the rhetoric that Autism/ADHD aren’t disabilities is harmful. Just because something isn’t disabling to you doesn’t mean it’s not a disability as a whole. Disabilities are a spectrum just like everything else, you as a person can have a physical disability like MS and still function fine for example. But that doesn’t stop it from being a disability, a disorder, whatever. Much like how having a viral infection but it not showing any symptoms doesn’t mean it’s not a virus – it’s just not affecting you as much as it does others.
Being a person with a disability doesn’t necessarily have to mean you’re a disabled person – you can use “disabled” to mean impaired functioning (e.g. if you’re wheelchair bound and it gets in the way of your daily life) rather than just to mean that you have a disability. But many times, I would say the majority of times, neurodivergence is actually disabling in a way other than via “the system”.
Anecdotally, my autistic friends emphasize how much torture light and especially sounds are, have pretty fucked food sensitivities (so do I, but because of ADHD), they get terrible burnout, etc. And they’re ““high functioning”” (high/low functioning are dehumanizing/reductive terms imo which is why it’s in double quotes). Of course, one of my friends actually gets an advantage from their ASD, which is they can hyperfocus on stuff for a looong time, but then they get burnout for months to years and never touch it again.
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As an autistic person (diagnosed by an actual professsional, not by tiktok), I must say I am happy existing lol
My life can be pretty miserable sometimes but it is 100% not caused by autism and if anything, I’d say the autism helps.
True, but life is gud ngl
Same. It’s 100% society and not being too receptive and accommodating to people with “disabilities” (which i don’t see autism as).
I have ASD and ADHD, generally pretty happy to be here.
Autism is a spectrum and most of us are perfectly functional, happy, productive people.
It’s nothing like pugs or pitbulls, frankly that’s kind of offensive. You’re likening us to a genetic mistake. Most of the time I find myself wondering why the neurotypicals are so goddamn dysfunctional.
Who the fuck do you think you are too suggest that I, and many of my friends, shouldn’t exist?
You’re describing eugenics, call it what it is. It’s not my fault you have shitty bedfellows.
Lmao everything you say is clearly purely out of hatred. Why do you value the life of a dog so much less than the life of a human to call them “genetic mistakes”?
And who said that you and your friends shouldn’t exist? Certainly not me. You’re likening “maybe it’s a bad idea to knowingly create someone with a disability with a high likelihood of fucking someone over in life” to “i wish you and all your friends were dead and didn’t exist”.
It’s actually pretty offensive to imply to the large portion of people who have their lives negatively affected by ADHD and ASD that it’s not all that bad and they should suck it up and stop wishing they didn’t have it. Clearly a lot of people in this thread disagree with you, those who have mental disorders including ASD.
Just because you were lucky and don’t suffer much or even at all, means that it’s fine that many (and in my experience most) other people affected by the disorder suffer? That’s extremely selfish.
It is not describing eugenics. You are just saying emotionally charged words to try to make whatever you disagree with look worse. I could call what you believe in “sadism” and it’d have the same validity.
I believe it’s bad to intentionally give a child bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, mood disorders, personality disorders, etc. because those can all cause extreme pain even if it doesn’t seem like a problem when you’re younger. I’m sure you’d agree that it’s immoral to willingly afflict someone with that. But you draw the line at neurodevelopmental disorders for some reason?
In this case you already exist. You only get the right to exist after you do exist, or we would have to discuss the rights of inexistent people, and that would be very confusing
This is the case. One thing is treating all humans with respect, and another is knowingly contributing to someone having a more difficult life. You can love the ones who already exist without passing on your genetic nonsense to new ones.
So people who are more likely to get cancer shouldn’t reproduce? What about people with asthma?
What about people lower on the socioeconomic scale?
If you follow your logic even a few steps it’s gonna get real eugenics-y real fast.
I never attempted to lay out guidelines. As an general time I think anyone who rolls the dice when they can pass on a condition is horribly selfish and lacking in empathy.
But one of your points… why should someone who can’t afford a child have a child? It’s pretty valid to say that if my current position makes it so my kids would suffer a lot (which, in a corporatist society especially in the US, being very poor unfortunately generally causes immense pains in life) that it’d be immoral for me to create kids and then inflict that same issue upon them without them even being able to consent to it.
I can’t afford to continue college, and I can’t get a scholarship or anything to help – my ADHD was the main factor in me doing poorly in school even though I made A’s on almost every assignment/test given to me (I just didn’t do most of the assignments). I can’t afford housing. I had a seizure just randomly a few weeks ago and now I have USD$80K in medical bills (I can get that reduced a bit, but no way I can pay it off).
I am poor. There is 0 chance that I’m forcing all this stuff on a child, including the ADHD part. No doubt I would at least do good at getting treatment and helping the child with their ADHD completely unlike my parents did (I wasn’t diagnosed until 19 even though it was very obvious I had ADHD and my teachers even told them I probably have ADHD), but especially my flavour of ADHD is clearly not something that I want to pass down to kids in this society. And I’m pretty sick of people treating mental disorders like they’re somehow not nearly as serious as physical/physiological disorders.
If we lived in a socialist society where everyone is treated perfectly like they should be treated, then sure – having a disability wouldn’t be so bad. Even in that case I’d still find it immoral if I made kids that would have as equally terrible of a time just trying to enjoy their own hobbies and work as me. It’s like the biggest fun and life and it feels it’s been ripped out of my hands, I don’t want my kids to deal with that.
And once again, there are still plenty of unadopted kids out there who would otherwise be suffering if they weren’t adopted. I think just having kids at all rather than adopting when that’s the case is immoral, irregardless of if you’re disabled or not.
Also I see a big difference in the cancer part and Autism/ADHD/bipolar/etc. since if your parent or parents have, for example ADHD, it’s almost certain that it will be passed down (like 90-99% chance). That kind of chance of passing down is definitely not the case when it comes to cancer. Like 60% (or more) of people get cancer in their lifetimes anyways so it’s pretty likely you’ll get cancer regardless.
Also cancer is something that can be taken out (if not found late), neurodivergence is not. And cancer doesn’t affect you your whole life, while mental disorders do.
- I am autistic and have ADHD and I still prefer having been born to the alternative thank you very much!
- Comparing the intentional breeding of universaly harmful traits in dogs to taking a slightly higher risk of ASD which is rarely harmful is quite a stretch.
- Without autistic people many great things wouldn’t exist today. I would argue that without the special interests and hyperfocus of neurodiverse people a lot of scientce and engineering wouldn’t have happened or at least a lot later.
- While ASD and ADHD are often percieved as harmful, they are rarely only harmful and often bring special talent or at least a unique perspective.
The entire “your ADHD is a superpower” rhetoric is extremely harmful to people who have ADHD and generally leads to the struggles of ADHD not being taken seriously. I don’t have a “gift” or a “superpower”, I have a disability…
ADHD has many, MANY objectively bad things about it, and extremely few “good” things. I’d say the only thing that’s positive that comes out of my ADHD is that I have a lot of interests, but even that is a problem in and of itself because it makes me divide my attention between many different things and never complete any of them… ADHD comes with a ton of executive dysfunction and self-regulation problems that tend to fuck you up a lot in life.
The hyperfocus is hardly a benefit considering it generally causes you to waste a ton of time on things that shouldn’t get that much time, and even not considering that I’d say any benefit of hyperfocus is heavily outweighed by just being able to do anything at any time without having to constantly fight yourself over it, since you’d get so much more done. I find that people with both a good amount of Autism and some ADHD do a lot better than people who just have ADHD when it comes to these things, because the ASD can take actual advantage of the hyperfocus, but that’s something a lot of people with ADHD do NOT have…
Also if someone was never born, they wouldn’t know nor care that they weren’t born since they never existed. There’s literally 0 downside to not being born. Any sort of idea that you’d hate to not have been born or that you would prefer to be born than not to be is a purely irrational thought considering that.
And yes, there are people with ASD and ADHD and depression and whatever that live lives that they like. That’s not the point. The point is that the disorders do cause an objective amount of suffering that is higher than those without, especially in this society, and in many cases the suffering causes a lot of harm to the person, so intentionally taking a high chance of that happening to your kid is immoral. I don’t want to intentionally harm my kid, you shouldn’t either.
Btw, it’s not a “slightly higher risk” you are giving your kid like 9x the odds of having ASD if you yourself have ASD. And if you have ADHD you are almost guaranteeing that your kid also has ADHD.
I don’t consider ADHD a superpower and I struggle with executive dysfunction every single day. I would love to be able to understand other people and their non verbal or indirect communication better. On the other hand I love the fact that my personal combination of disabilities has allowed me to learn to extremely quickly research enough of any given topic to have relevant discussions with experts. My widespread intereste allowed me to learn a huge variety of facts most of which are useless most of the time but many of which were surprisingly useful at least one time in my life. My bad working memory forced me to learn to use general principles to get useful results based on very little information and to quickly distill the most relevant information out of heaps of text. Nearly every single strenght I have is literally the flip-side of one of my weaknesses. On the whole I would say that while my ADHD and ASD have clearly made my life more challenging on the whole those challenges helped me become the person I am. I recognize that not everyone is as lucky as I am in that regard but i"m quite sure there are others who are even more lucky than me many of which won’t even suspect they are neurodivergent, just as I didn’t a few years ago. So I think your perception of the “objective” ammount of neurodivergent suffering may be squewed because only people who suffer at least a bit have reason to get a diagnosis.
It kind of sounds like you’re saying these parents should have predicted their 3 twins would end up with autism. Which, you know, would be…deeply stupid
I would assume that one or both of the parents have ASD if all 3 of their kids have ASD. I would hope that kind of stuff would be clarified when taking the guy’s sperm, but who knows in some countries like the US right. It could be recessive genes, or something environmental like smoking/drinking while pregnant though
Not everyone who has ASD gets a diagnosis, not everyone with ASD is non functional. Two adults can have ASD without knowing it, and even if they do, it’s perfectly reasonable for them to assume their children will be like them, functional and happy.
ITT: people advocating eugenics on themselves. I hate it. I hate seeing it. And stuff like this is psychologically destructive to read for me.
If people here don’t like others with similar traits to them advocating that their life and perspective is not valuable and that they should hate it and wish no-one new experience it, I recommend avoiding this thread - even moreso if you have suicidal tendencies. It was very upsetting for me ;-;, even though I personally have no intent to have kids.
frfr, it’s so fucking tragic.
An autistic life isn’t a ruined life.
Antinatalist here - the rhetoric in that post is horrible, and is not representative of antinatalism as a whole.
Antinatalism isn’t the belief that a certain group shouldn’t reproduce - it’s that nobody should. The world is fucked, and nonconsensually bringing anyone into it is morally reprehensible. It’s not eugenics, it’s voluntary extinctionism.
For the people that have been born, however, everyone deserves respect and equity. Ableism, or any other kind of discrimination, is just wrong, and makes you a shitty person. Just like the person who made that post.
It’s not eugenics, it’s voluntary extinctionism.
“Don’t worry guys, that person doesn’t represent us - what they should have said is that they wish for all of humanity to die out.”
This is an absolutely insane thing to advocate for. I hope you come to realize that in time.
I’m not saying we should kill people, I’m saying making more is wrong.
It is a nonconsensual act whereupon you are forcing life and all its travesty onto another being, when they were perfectly fine not existing.
Call me insane if you want, I couldn’t care less. Humans are a plague upon both other humans and this planet as a whole, and bringing someone else into the world to be both a victim and perpetrator of the issue is wrong.
I think your perspective about life is blinded by pessimism, and you’re treating that pessimism as absolute fact. Many people view life as a wonderful thing, are thrilled to exist for the time that they do, and see creating a new life to experience the wonders of living as a gift.
Humans are a plague upon both other humans and this planet as a whole
You’re sounding like Agent Smith from the matrix. Come on. Unplug from the negative feedback loop for a bit.
You call it pessimism, I call it realism.
There are good things to experience, yes. If you’re already alive, then by all means, seek to find happiness and enjoyment. Don’t force someone else into that endless struggle. You can make no guarantees that their life won’t be one of pure suffering, and that’s not a risk I’m willing to take.
And again, we are destroying this planet - not just for us, but for all life on it. We are the problem.
You call it pessimism, I call it realism.
Says every person with depression ever.
I agree with the other commenter recommending therapy. When you don’t see it as “life is pain and the future is hopeless”, you might sound less like a scifi villain calling for human extinction.
“Existence is suffering” is a foundational tenet for many worldviews and religions, not just antinatalism. Existence is literally the first cause to all suffering - no existence, no suffering.
Acknowledging that doesn’t make me depressed or pessimistic, it’s just acceptance how things are.
You’re free to live in whatever fantasy you want, though. That’s your right.
Also, responding to differing worldviews with “get help” is generally bad form
Your worldview is literally calling for the extinction of all humans. You need to come back to reality and stop convincing yourself that this is normal or healthy.
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Why stop at humans? Ducks are pretty reprehensible as well.
And the less said about koalas, the better.
Humans are the primary cause for global suffering. Ducks are pretty fucked tho, they could probably go as well.
Mosquitoes I shouldn’t even have to mention. I think we can all agree those fuckers need to go
Irrelevant.
Ducks cannot consent to voluntary extinction
Dude if people really have such a problem with life, they can in fact opt out of it at pretty much any point down the line.
If someone experiences so much suffering that they are pushed to “opt out of it”, it would have been better not to force them to live and experience the suffering in the first place. Just because someone can take themselves out of it doesn’t make the suffering okay to inflict.
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Yeah but like, why not let those with the best understanding of the particular circumstances make that decision on a case-by-case basis instead of unilaterally saying that because some people are probably going to have a shitty life no one gets to make more (people)?
So if your kid doesn’t want to fight in the water wars you’re just gonna say “lol kys nerd”? Tragic.
Firstly, I don’t have a kid. Being sterile (and also just not wanting any), I am quite unlikely to ever have a kid. Ideally we as a society would work to avoid water wars happening. My point is that we should improve our collective state of affairs somewhat, rather than resigning ourselves to the idea that to exist is to suffer like a bunch of loser doomers.
There’s no fixing to this shit and deep down you know this.
I saw how humanity got together to deal with COVID. Spoiler: they fucking didn’t.
What a garbage species we are.
And we do, frequently. Suicide is one of the leading causes of death for autistic people.
Yes, and I think that is bad. I just also think that this isn’t because of anything intrinsic to being alive and/or autistic, but largely due to external factors.
And what control do we have over these external factors? Because it sounds like you’re basically summing this up as ‘skill issue’, you get that right?
Victim blaming autistic people who commit suicide is a great look on you. You should be so proud of this line of reasoning.
Yeah righto bud, I’m not victim blaming anybody. I’m just shit-talking a bunch of sad defeatists on the internet who think they’re smarter than everybody else just because they’ve taken the fucking blackpill when in reality they’re so far down this hole that they’re running defense for fucking eugenics against their own community.
On the off chance that you were being sincere in your question as to what we can do to actually improve the situation, the answer is to participate in an existing community dedicated to that very purpose. Collective action is generally way more effective than anything an individual can do. Are there barriers to doing this? Potentially. What can you do about that? I guess you’ll just have to figure it out; I don’t fucking know the specific circumstances of your personal situation, nor those of any groups around you.
@OurTragicUniverse @STRIKINGdebate2 @BluJay320 @Lt_Worf @Walk_blesseD
So where does birth rank as the leading cause of death?
According to some predictions, climate change will cause up to 3 billion refugees by the end of the century. The world isn’t exactly the most stable right now either, in part due to the beginning effects of climate change.
Not that I necessarily agree with it, but coming to the conclusion that it’s not necessarily moral to bring a child into that world or contribute to further suffering, isn’t particularly insane or inhumane.
It’s not a particularly novel or outlandish idea either. From Sophocles to Shakespeare. To be or not to be, is an age old question.
Not that going on about how much you hate children and people who have children all day on the internet, is a particularly healthy hobby, obviously.
According to some predictions, climate change will cause up to 3 billion refugees by the end of the century.
Those are some very optimistic predictions.
Here are some fun links from the World Economic Forum and the United Nations: Global freshwater demand will exceed supply 40% by 2030 and 90% of global top soil and arable land is at risk of depletion by 2050.
And to add to all this, the ice caps will likely be melted completely in the next decade causing the Blue Ocean Event, where massive amounts of previously reflected solar radiation will instead be absorbed by the oceans, causing the release of huge amounts of methane from the sea bed and the earth to cook in it’s own atmosphere.
This is a good explanation for anyone interested in further reading on the BOE. Look this up for yourselves with other sources though.
(You’ll want to find out how much ice coverage is left at the poles, how much we’ve lost this year so far, and the loss projection for if the next 5 years are as hot as 2023. Then look up what will happen to the earth with all the unreflected solar radiation we’ll be absorbing without the ice caps).Billions of people are going to die in the next 30 years due to climate collapse. There may not be 3 billion of us left to be clinate refugees by the end of the century.
Wow, the Church of Shar exists in the real world.
I think your belief system is a rare example actual Evil. You’re literally advocating for the elimination of music, of art, of science, of anyone who could even appreciate those things. No more Rembrandt or Dali or Mozart or … anything. And you’ve gotten so twisted up inside, ostensibly because some people live sad, hard lives, that you think that’s a good thing.
Dude, find a therapist. This is no way to live.
I’m advocating for the elimination of poverty, disease, death, pollution, war, hate, and all human suffering.
Sure, there are some neat things in this world that are worth experiencing if you were forced to live. If you’re already alive, of course you should seek to find happiness and enjoyment in the little time you have.
Still doesn’t justify forcing more people into the world to exacerbate the problems we have - overpopulation being a major one.
It’s not evil. Things were fine before us, and things will be fine after us.
“Things” were not observable by anything with the capability to designate them as such, so no they were not “fine” in any meaningful sense of the word.
You’re literally doing the speech the villain does to make him seem reasonable.
I am literally begging you to find a therapist.
Semantics, but if you really want to get into it, a lack of ability for things to be good or bad is still better than the existence and perpetuation of suffering.
Also, responding to differing worldviews with “see a therapist” and comparing them to a villain is fucking disgusting
How could it be better? There’d be no one around to make that judgment call, so it’s a fundamentally illogical statement.
And I calls em like I sees em Mr. Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain Apologist.
Believe whatever fantasy you want, bud
Your human reasoning assumes all existence is human, I feel like we may be seeing a slight bias here.
Surely the core arguments that an anti-natalist might bring forward apply to any sentient beings, right? Like, a cat didn’t give prior consent to existing any more than a human did. Ergo, I do think it’s reasonable to point out that there would be no observer that could witness, much less enjoy any benefit from, the anti-natalist ideal world.
Antinatalism is evil because it goes against what God instructed.
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Brother if you think advocating for less population is “actual Evil” you’re in for a real hard time out in the world.
They’re not advocating for a lower population. They’re advocating for human extinction.
As in, we should all let the torch of consciousness burn out. I don’t know if I’d call it evil, but it’s definitely one of those severely misguided takes that you almost exclusively see on the internet.
It’s bound to happen.
At current rate we will never leave this planet, and it will die. If not by climate change then the Sun will go Red Giant and swallow us. Or a meteor. Something. All species will go extinct sometime.
You’re here afraid a few people believing that we should go extinct when there are 8 billion people and rising is gonna cause actual extinction. Fucking calm your tits, dude.
How did you read “voluntary extinction” and arrive at “less population?”
Your assuming antinatalism is a plague that will infect everyone with “I aint having kids”. 99% of people out here trying to have ten kids it seems. There are more trans people than antinatalists. Y’all are freaking out about a niche philosophy.
The global population will stabilize on it’s own before the end of the century.
Isn’t it just the belief that nobody should have kids though? I’d have thought the while extinction part would rank higher than the culture loss. And evil seems a bit extreme, sounds more like apathy and loss of hope to me. Not saying there aren’t some messed up people in the group though.
sounds more like apathy and loss of hope to me.
Yeah, this. My biggest issue with the fundamental anti-natalist position is that it’s a totally blackpilled one that ultimately devalues any positive experiences life brings when compared with even the potential for any bad thing to happen, regardless of magnitude.
Arguing that people must exist so as to maintain art and science is rather silly. Art and science exist for our utility; we are under no obligation to them. If people decide not to reproduce, that is their right.
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“Your worldview differs from mine so therefore you must be sad and miserable”
Sure, bud
you think someone wronged you by allowing you to be alive.
A nonconsensual act is not “allowing”, it is forcing
Consciousness is required to give consent, requiring consent to be born is a paradox.
This is a philosophical debate of which i see only 2 possible outcomes.
-
Life itself is a fundamental bad and negative the only ethical thing to do is fully halt the circle of reproduction to minimize all harm
-
Life itself is a fundamental good and positive, we must nurture and protect it to minimize harm against it. Prioritizing well being and personal happinesses while finding a “cure” for intolerance, hate and greed.
Alternative:
- Forcing birth upon someone is fundamentally wrong, and the only ethical thing to do is halt the cycle of reproduction to prevent further harm. We should also strive to minimize further harm to those already alive by prioritizing well-being and personal happiness, while searching for a “cure” for intolerance, hate, and greed.
Can you give some context on how that would look like in practice that is not akin to everybody suicide? If we stop the cycle of reproduction then humanity will go extinct in about a century (not considering Longevity escape velocity which would significantly alter the subject context)
Trying to create a better world and to find cures for harm is a difficult challenge, i am willing to sacrifice some of my own life (time, body and energy) for the common good knowing that future generations will be better off. But doing so knowing that in a century none of that work will matter at all would be detrimental to my ability to find meaning and therefore wellbeing in my life. Besides that, knowing that we have collectively chosen extinction rather then trying to archive the vast untapped potential our conscious minds still hold to grow would bring me great pain and sadness.
There is also the matter with what are we going to do with all other species on our planet? Do we respect their ability reproduce because they have no conscious concept of consent or we will we nuke the entire planet in the hope that their is no and never will be any other life out there?
Also a different question with a more spiritual angle: How can you be certain that there was nothing within you that existed before conception which did consent to being born as a human being in a random family. If we halt reproduction then we are forcing non existence on potential consciousness. In absolutes you can chose to end your life when you have it but you cannot give life to yourself when you don’t have it.
Parents can choose over their kids until adulthood, for example to have or not a medical treatment or how they should be educated.
Parents should choose if they make a kid or not as well.
-
parents can choose for their kids.
Ffs having autism sucks, suicide is one of the leading causes of death for us, and on average we die around 50.
It’s not eugenics to be sad for 3 new autistic kids being brought into this world to suffer and die in the catasrophic climate collapse we’re so dead set on, it’s fucking empathy.
You don’t know if said persons are gonna have a bad life, you just don’t know.
Autism can be bat for some, maybe more than few, but is not for everybody, Humanity always has faced existencial crisis, we will fix climate change on way or another.
People are born neurodivergent but they are not born suicidal, the reason suicide is the leading cause of death is because we are a minority that is not well understood by the dominant majority, that is where almost all the hearth comes from.
Schizofrenia is also understood as a form neurodivergency and has quite some overlap with autosm. Most people know it as a horrible, scary mental illness but this is only the case in modern societies. Where in a big city people experience hallucinations of yelling, monsters and many intens negative emotions in natural communities they experience quite the opposite, visions of ancestors, angels, positive emotions and artistic beauty in things.
Instead of conceding that ‘life is pain, so we should not live,’ we should advocate that ‘society is inflicting pain, and we must reform it to prevent such suffering.’”
This is an incredibly dumb idea. It will also die out for incredibly obvious reasons because everyone else will keep reproducing while antinatalists descend into irrelevancy.
Genesis 1:28 and al-Baqarah 2:187 instruct reproduction. Antinatalists are destined for the fire.
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The antinatalism subreddit (and similar groups elsewhere) is one of the most toxic places on the internet. It just reeks of hatred, and worse yet, treats that hatred as some sort of virtue.
Go live your life however you want, kids or no. But grouping up to talk shit about children or people who start families is just gross.
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It’s great that they aren’t procreating then.
I lurked for a while there, and the most horrible realisation is that many had children, they just regretted so much. Those kids are fucked
That’s really sad.
And it also has the same energy as your divorced uncles telling you their theories about how “marriage is horrible”
That’s… why they’re there.
That isn’t a dunk lol
I have this theory that negative affinity groups (a term I made up for groups based on antipathy for something or someone) have a tendency towards toxic behavior. When you gain connection and social clout for dunking on someone or something, there’s very little incentive to be fair to them or show any kind of nuance.
Contrast with groups with affirmative goals or a defined object of interest. The positive groups can measure progress towards their goals or new and interesting perspectives on their objects.
“It’s not a toxic stew of depression and misanthropy guys, it’s a totally valid belief system!”
This isn’t the first time I’ve seen it here or on reddit either, and it’s honestly sad.
These groups always seem like doomers who have ingested so much negativity that they’ve developed depression. Either that, or they’re taking the loooong way to just telling their moms that they don’t want to start a family.
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I went 36 years without even knowing. Corporate greed has done more to ruin my life than my mental illnesses have.
Same. Out of all my lost jobs, only two can be proven (by me only of course) to be because of some autistic trait I have.
While I don’t value my own life as much as I should, I know I have value to others, and most of that is due to my traits. In fact, I’m starting a job today that wants me specifically because of those traits. I never thought I’d work again.
I have saved dozens of kitten lives, who go on to make their new human’s life better.
I used to hate myself. I’ve learned to embrace the way I am and couldn’t imagine being any other way. The people whose lives I have made a positive impact on would agree. I don’t have to rule the world, but my household is efficient because of me.
Eugenics isn’t the answer. I’d bet if we had the right resources available, none of the people in this thread would say that. Everyone deserves a chance at a good life. Corporate greed is the reason we don’t have those resources.
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The people that want to restrict reproduction are acting like eugenicists? I’m shocked. This is my shocked face.
Antinatalism says nothing about restricting reproduction, it is just the principle that people should abstain from reproduction. Going about that by forced sterilization, coercion, abuse, or eugenics would be bad for obvious reasons.
it is just the principle that people should abstain from reproduction.
Which is griping about reproduction followed by trying to shame people when they don’t take the same principled stand. And a quick visit over to the sub shows a few people taking principled stands for themselves and a whole lot blackpilled edgelord “I hate breeders” horseshit. And sure enough there’s a different post on the top page ranting about parents with disabilities having kids. Which sounds like… what?
The people that have hard opinions about reproduction are acting like eugenicists in that sub.
A philosophy is different from a Reddit page.
You are right, the reddit page is only a reflect of the people who follows it. Somehow r/Stoicism doesn’t have post shaming, harassing people and promting eugenics.
first post on r/Stoicism today : ““It can only ruin your life if it ruins your character”, so what do you do if you compromise your character?” basically a philosphical question First post today on r/Antinatalism : “To think there are people in constant chronic pain and people still add more people to this torture” considering the right call about a particular neurological disease is to bully pregnant women
not what antinatalist says
Going about that by forced sterilization, coercion, abuse, or eugenics would be bad for obvious reasons
Yeah an Mein Kampf is a book. The thing is that if antinatalism would genuinely improve the world it means it does have the goal to be implemented in all of society. This mean you’re gonna need to set a standard through rules and to enforce them. Those are the means.
Oh and if Antinatalism think having children is already bad, it clearly present having disabled children as worse
it clearly present having disabled children as worse
What makes you think that? Antinatalism is just a blanket statement of “its best to not reproduce”. We don’t discriminate that statement to any certain type of individual.
so now it is not a philosophy anymore ? Antinatalism is not just the term for people who don’t want children. It is a political philosophy, with authors, books and currents aiming at answering certain societal problem like overpopulation, overconsumption, discrimination and human suffering. It is a philosophy blaming natalism for many if not most of the problem Antinatalism claim to solve.
Oh and “What make me think that ?”, I don’t know ? this very post and the overall vocabulary used by antinatalist when they spoke of disabled children.
Remember antinatalism is a solution to human suffering, and as you can’t deny disabled children suffer a lot more, Antinatalism is therefore more involved.
“Now you have ruined three lives forever”
bruh
The sad thing is there’s tons of autistic people on that sub that geniuely think like that about themselves. One of my worst experiences posting was interacting with that place and getting another autistic person talking about how they wish to die, how they wanted to be hate crime’d and literally talked about offing themselves just to spite me. That person blocked me so I have no idea what they are up to these days. This was nearly a year ago and there’s a good chance they’ve taken their life since then.
I fucking hate r/antinatalism. Its 100% should be banned. Its literally just severely depressed people talking themselves deeper into depression.
I’m a long time.lurker there before leaving reddit for good. I’ve seen most of the posts for years.
Antinatalism is not a depression cult, though it does attract that type but more of a “we see life as a net negative experience and it isn’t our right to inflict it on others”.
It’s why they’re so pro adoption since those kids are already born so the damage has been done. I don’t think those people are depressed or suicidal.
I’m 40 so I’ve been around. Ever since middle school I knew I love my theoretical kids too much to have them born into this world. So far, there hasn’t been any kind of evidence or experience I had to change my mind. I’m a wage slave. My “kids” would be wage slaves. They might have to fight in resource wars when climate change or rise of Nazis start really ramping up. I don’t want them to have a worse life than me and I cannot provide or promise one. I don’t think there ever was a time in history where procreation was a good idea.
You can do everything right and still get a rocket dropped on your home. Your kids can still become target practice for the next psycho at school. Hell, your kids could become the psychos! Every evil person that exists or has has been someone’s “beautiful baby”.
To me this comes off as gambling. You are gambling that you will have a bright, kind, Neurotypical kid that will grow up to be great and spread happiness and what not.
Thing I don’t get is why people find Antinatalist philosophy so goddamn triggering. We can’t change your mind you are going to do whatever the fuck you want. So many hateful responses to it when you can just walk away. Why?
And as far as the OG post, if you are autistic, know that autism is hereditary and still have kids in spite of all that, that’s an evil sadistic act! How can you hate your theoretical kids so damn much? I feel sorry for them, but fuck the mother.
Antinatalism is not a depression cult
Absolutely it is a eugenics flavored death cult
To me this comes off as gambling
Gambling where your actions and your relatives actions can impact 95% of the results is gambling. Never heard of a school shooters who had a perfectly normal education before. Either they were brought up to be like that or drifted away toward horrors with no one giving a damn
Thing I don’t get is why people find Antinatalist philosophy so goddamn triggering
It is very good to read a theoritical book, but the first thing outsiders will look at are the followers of said philosophy. And for antinatalist they are a shittons of eugenicist and insensitive people. The main virtual breeding ground for that philosophy is reddit. Already said everything but let’s go on. There I saw a post by a man whose sister announced him she was pregnant and he reacted by berating her, throwing mean and spiteful remarks and every comment was cheering him and trashing the woman. The real question is : why are antinatalist so triggered and hateful towards even their loved ones who don’t follow their philosophy ? The reality portrayed by antinalist is one where they are bothered by family members trying to convince them to have kids or weirded out that you don’t want one while they disown their sisters who get pregnant.
And i won’t talk about the misoginy
It’s true though. Living with autism is like choosing the Nightmare difficulty option in life.
Source: me
Look here, Mario. You are speaking for exactly one (1) person. Your personal experience of autism is not universal. Some of us just have better circumstances. Some of us are spiteful bitches who live for the difficulty. My point being, some of us actually like being alive, and are okay with being autists.
The ratio of votes says otherwise.
Good for you for having an enjoyable life. I hope you continue to do so.
Ironically they do
Well, used to. I stand by my statement.
lol
dude this site is based on reddit, the first upvote is automatically put by your account
You’re going through month+ long threads. Ran out of things to look at on the internet? Been there.
you know it takes half a minute to scroll down there. Really don’t you have anything better to do than to come and say that ?
Oh I’m sorry to disappoint you. Expecting a proper debate? Or were you just shouting at the clouds at a random anonymous post you disagree with?
I politely disagree.
Autism can* be terrible, just as autism can also allow to have a great life.
So no, is not a true but a loose may.
If I may take a moment to ask… what the fuck are you on about, OP? Absolutely nothing in the screenshot suggests anything even remotely related to eugenics. You took that leap all on your own.
It is tangentially related. Eugenics in general is about “improving the gene pool” by letting certain people have children. Autistic people are usually thrown into that camp. People don’t want autistic kids therefore certain individuals shouldn’t have children to reduce that chance. That in spirit is what the post is highlighting.
Now, is the OOP a “eugenicist”? Idk if i can give that conclusion, but the antinatalist rhetoric can be argued to borderline their ideals.
Objectively people with autism will have a harder life because of extra struggles. (Not that you can’t have a good life, but you have a higher chance of struggling). The antinatalism movement is not about “improving the gene pool” or related to eugenicist ideals like you are implying, it is about reducing suffering. And the extreme conclusion is that the only certain way to reduce suffering is to stop breeding. (And not having children is not the same as some selective culling like you are implying is the ‘spirit’ of the post)
This isn’t about exterminating autistic people, if the couple had adopted 3 autistic kids the op likely would not have had an issue. The op is pointing out how the desire to have “biological” children led to them doing a procedure that increased the likelyhood of having more than one child, and increased the likelyhood of complications.
Maybe “ruined 3 lives” is harsh, but I don’t see this as eugenicist. It is standard antinatalism “having multiple children is bad when you could have adopted but your drive for ‘blood children’ led to this and they will now have a statistically more difficult life than their peers so you likely increased the net suffering in society out of selfishness”
