Did I say mandatory? I meant optional! You’re “free” to die in a cardboard box under a freeway as a market capitalist scarecrow warning to the other ants so they keep showing up to make us more!
I think a law stating you can’t borrow against unrealized gains would be sensible.
You can keep your unrealized gains forever, live of your dividends for all i care, and pay no tax. But realizing them, either through selling or borrowing against, triggers a taxation.
Mhm. There’s two very good reason unrealized gains aren’t taxed: volatility and cash flow. Are you and the government expected to swap cash back and forth everyday to correct for changes in the market? No that’s silly. Should people go into debt because they don’t have the cash to pay the taxes of a baseball card they happen to own that is suddenly worth millions? Also silly.
For that same reason, using unrealized gains as security is dangerous, just like the subprime loans market was!
There’s a very good reason they should be taxed; half a dozen people are richer than god, and basically never pay any real amount of tax.
if you secure debt against them, they should be taxed?
Yeah owning a baseball card worth money sure whatever, if you pawn that card sorry, pay taxes. You use that card a to secure a loan with lower interest rates than you’d get without then sorry, you are realizing gains whether or not you want to admit it. This goes along one of the lawsuits against Trump. He lied to get favorable interest rates by overvaluing his assets to get better interest rates. If that’s against the law why the fuck is that not counted as a “gain” to use assets to secure favorable interest rates?
We’re talking about the stock market. And it would be quarterly or annual. Please stop exaggerating.
There’s a precise moment in time you take a loan. Use that moment in time to calculate worth; tax.
Sure, but this shouldn’t apply to everybody. Unrealized gains up to $10 million don’t get taxed. Unrealized gains over that amount get taxed.
If you pay it yearly you’re not paying this every day. People with this much money almost always go up in unrealized gains every year, so it’s not going to be a back and forth. It’ll be a yearly adjustment. No different than literally everybody else that pays taxes on their new wealth every year.
Edit: as for the baseball card example, if you’ve got over $10 million in unrealized gains on baseball cards, yeah, maybe you pay taxes on that.
That was my thoughts as well.
How are you going to enforce that? The Bank can cite whatever they want for giving the loan.
If we just tax them then it’s easily enforceable and it’s done.
It can just be flipped on it’s head;
How are you going to enforce taxing on value, the person can just cite whatever value they want for the asset.
No they actually can’t. In stocks the price is publicly listed by a third party. In real estate an assessor gets involved. For commodities like cars they have to be unique or nearly so before there isn’t a third party listing it’s value.
For edge cases, especially large real estate, we could always make a second law, one that says the government can buy your building at the value you gave the IRS if it’s significantly below market rate on dollars per square foot for it’s type (office, industrial, residential, etc), or that it’s represented as a higher value in investment reports or bank loans. We’ll frame it as a bail out, helping them offload toxic assets. Then the government sells the building on the open market. That way when someone like Trump decides his buildings are suddenly worth less than all of the surrounding buildings we can keep him from going bankrupt again.
https://www.propublica.org/article/trump-fraud-ruling-property-valuation-michael-cohen
A former sitting president has been indicted, if not convicted of this very crime. You’ll have to excuse me if I don’t believe it’s that uncommon.
It took literal decades and the magnifying glass of running for public office. I’m not comfortable with that being the standard.
It is the standard. Now. Currently.
If you don’t like it, might I suggest a guillotine or several. Worked for the French.
Or, we could pass a law changing that standard.
Wouldn’t that affect things like Home Equity loans?
Homes are taxed based on assessed value. They are already a form of taxing unrealized gains.
Most of the population either has:
- no unrealized gains
- gains in a retirement account that we can’t borrow against
- gains in real estate that are taxed, but can be borrowed against
- a combo of 2 and 3
I think it’s fair to ask that the rich play by the same rules. You can either borrow against your gains and pay taxes on them, or not pay taxes and not be able to borrow against them.
No because the mínimum for this to apply is 100 million.
Depends on the exact implementation, but sure, you could happily write a version where an initial home loan isn’t hit, and only “top up” loans against the INCREASED value of your home is targeted.
I think the real solution is not to lend on fake money. Tax or no tax, it wasn’t taxes that caused the market crash in 2008.
Thank you. Even if they pass something it will be written by a bureaucratic bean counter and will be riddled with loopholes.
Simply don’t allow loans on stocks. Keep it simple.
All money is fake money, though.
The real money is the friends we made along the way who owe us favors.
That doesn’t work. It’s not enforceable.
Not enforceable as a law, but not bailing out those who do it is a great way to put an end to it.
I’d rather just have it done than give them another thing they can pressure politicians to bail them out of later.
Then good luck getting a house mortgage because you can’t lend based on future income because it’s not guaranteed. When I bought my house they incorporated the value of my brokerage account. I wouldn’t be able to own a place if they didn’t.
With house mortgages it’s collateralized against the house, a physical object, but it has only a fake value until it’s actually sold because house prices can go up or down.
I don’t agree with unrealized gains taxes in general, but the instant they are used as collateral, or if value in any way is extracted from them (even loan value), they become realized gains, and should be taxed.
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I think the key point in the post was “If ‘unrealized gains’ can buy stuff-then they’re realized. Tax them.”
Essentially, because the unrealized gains held in their stocks could be realized through a loan, all of their capital gains should be considered for taxation.
As opposed to just the assets used as collateral, that is now effectively liquid, should be taxed as realized.
I personally think we should do everything we can to disincentivize wealth hoarding, even if it’s an “unfair” or possibly somewhat broken system that does so, but it also doesn’t seem feasible as a kind of legislation you could convince anyone in the government to enact, since they’ll still be focusing on things like if it could possibly lead to a higher loss than the initial investment if they’re taxed on the gains for years, but it drops low enough to wipe out all the value they paid in tax and their gains, even if the actual price is higher than the purchase price.
Yeah, a bank isn’t going to give your a $500k mortgage on a $200k property, so if they give you a $500k loan on stock then that’s the value given to the stock at that point.
I don’t agree with unrealized gains taxes in general, but the instant they are used as collateral, or if value in any way is extracted from them (even loan value), they become realized gains, and should be taxed.
What you’re suggesting would also mean you’re advocating for middle class homeowners to be taxed on a full value of a Home Equity Line of Credit (HELOC) even if they haven’t spent a dime of it yet. Was that your intention?
Homeowners are excluded from capital gains tax for the first 250k for individual filers.
I believe you’re referring to rules on sale of a home where there is a capital gain, meaning you bought the house for $100k and sell it for $350k, no cap gains taxes. We’re in uncharted waters with what @bastion@feddit.nl is proposing. That user (possibly) suggesting it for HELOCs too.
Okay but you can just apply the same logic to a HELOC. If you get a 30k HELOC for a bedroom renovation then it does not count towards capital gains tax.
Even normal capital gains taxes have brackets.
Okay but you can just apply the same logic to a HELOC. If you get a 30k HELOC for a bedroom renovation then it does not count towards capital gains tax.
Wouldn’t this be a double standard if we’re applying @bastion@feddit.nl 's logic? The rich would get taxed on loaned money but the middle class wouldn’t?
That’s generally how progressive tax brackets work, yes. Technically speaking if I rich person wants to take out a 30k HELOC they’d also not get taxed on it.
that’s like the point of the entire system? I mean, I don’t want to go back to the 1800s corporate baronies that defined most industry at that point in time
This is how… EVERYTHING works… Income tax brackets, 401k limits. I thought this was pretty obvious, from each according their ability and all.
The rich would get taxed on loaned money but the middle class wouldn’t?
Oh no… Anyway.
Oh no, I guess our legislators’ hands are tied. It’s not like they could just put an exemption for a person’s first home into the law or anything.
Oh well.
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They didn’t set out their whole tax platform for their presidential bid friend. We can trivially blow down your straw man with a primary residence exemption or, you know, tax brackets.
Simply tax it as if it underwent a buy/sell/trade. Capital gains and losses are accounted for in that at the time the value is utilized. They are tracked, and you don’t pay them later.
Reasonable home ownership (only home) could be exempted.
Wait…I pay taxes on my HELOC…
You’re “free” to die in a cardboard box under a freeway
Actually… They made that illegal. You’re free to rot in prison for being homeless, though!
If it’s one homeless guy dieing under the bridge it’s a capitalist scarecrow sothat other people work harder.
If it’s a hundred homeless guys dieing under bridges the people understand that the problem is not them, but capitalism. That’s illegal.
Capitalist Scarecrow is such an effective term. It feels like enshittification in the way that I see it everywhere, and now I finally have a word for it.
edit: wording
Sitting here, watching every town council around my area pass a homeless ban after that SCOTUS ruling. Even the newspaper suddenly switched and said popular opinion swung 180 degrees in the last six months.
What the fuck does one do at that point? It’s obviously manufactured consent. It’s blatantly unconstitutional to tell people they can’t exist on public land. It’s a human rights violation to be stuffed into a shelter that demands you be a better human than people who already have housing in order to get house money. At this point we’re just turning the homeless into the new scary minority.
The goal is extermination and genocide. There is nowhere for the homeless to go except into the ground as dead bones, where they won’t bother the privileged and rich anymore.
I don’t know if we’re there, but that’s definitely one way Automation has been theorized to go.
Three hots and a cot is better than nothing…
Well then there’s the forced labor.
Yeah, unfortunately.
I know the 12 year olds will be upset but this is dumb.
Unrealized gains may never be realized. If they ever are, they may be worth less at that point than the tax you paid. It is like taxing everybody on income at the beginning of the year and then telling them tough luck if they get fired and never get that income.
Also, borrowing in assets does not make you wealthier. How much tax should we charge people when they get a mortgage ( not when they sell, when they first borrow ). I mean, somebody just gave you hundreds of thousands of dollars. Why shouldn’t you have to pay tax on that? ( according to the OP at least ).
Anyway, I will stop there. We are not going to get back at the rich by saying a bunch of stupid things. If you don’t like generational wealth, fine. Have an estate tax. If you don’t like windfall wealth, fine. Have a super high progressive tax rate. I have no problem limiting extreme wealth ( it won’t hurt me ). But “tax people I don’t like on things that make no sense” just tells people you cannot think well and are not into math.
This is both a terrible strawman of advocates for this type of tax reform and a misrepresentation of what realization events are in the US tax code.
Sure “borrowing in assets does not make you wealthier” but it does provide an excellent basis for establishing increases in wealth that have already happened. Realization is a tool to avoid arguments and uncertainty around valuation, not a requirement that taxpayers have cash in a checking account to pay their liabilities. Posting collateral for borrowing inherently involves valuation so could very easily be made a realization event, it fits very neatly into existing law.
It may be a political impossibility but your dismissal doesn’t suggest you’ve really thought about it.
Also “taxing everybody on income at the beginning of the year and then telling them tough luck if they get fired and never get that income”. As someone in a high tax bracket (and state FML) who left the country mid tax year, bless you for thinking this doesn’t happen.
Both my examples are about being taxed on money that may never exist. Your second comment makes me think you did not understand me.
I am not talking about political impossibility. And I am certainly not talking about the difficulty in calculating current market value. I am talking about the poor correlation between current value and the gains that will potentially actually be “realized”. I am talking about bad policy.
Here is an example. Back in the 2000’s, there were people that were taxed on the value of their stock options using exactly this same logic ( the “value” on paper ). Later, when the market crashed, there was not even enough value left in the shares and options to pay the taxes already owing. People literally paid well over 100% tax ( in some cases hundreds of percent ). Who were these super rich people that deserved such tax treatment? Many were relatively young employees of technology companies using equity as compensation. These employees had little wealth before being taxed on their “unrealized gains” and may have been bankrupt after. The whole concept is incredibly flawed.
I personally dislike Elon Musk. But even with him, taxing him on what he was worth at the high point would be totally unjust as he is not worth that now. It makes way more sense ( in my view ) to tax him when, and if, any of that wealth materializes. I am no fan of Donald Trump. But I think it would have been totally insane to tax him on the value of his Trump Media “wealth” when it was “valued” at $8 billion. If he gets even $1 billion out of it I will be amazed. Anyway, tax him on that. Tax it at 90% if you want. But don’t tax him on “wealth” that nobody is ever going to see.
I do not know what state you are in but I am unaware of anywhere that would tax you on “unrealized” income from your high-tax bracket salary. Nobody is taxing you on the “unrealized” benefit of your salary. Are you trying to tell me that it does? Where I am, leaving the jurisdiction for more than 6 months would render my income and gains beyond that point non-taxable so the government of course wants a “final return”. Are you talking about something similar?
Again, I am all for taxing the rich. Tax actual gains however you want. What I do not think you should do is tax “unrealized” gains. It is an incredibly flawed idea.
That wealth “materializes” when his company gets a new loan based on the paper value of his assets as collateral, even if he hasn’t materially realized that value yet. If you can get rewarded with new loans and government contracts based on paper valuations, you can pay taxes based on paper valuations.
This is the thing, I think. We’re talking about unrealized gains, but I think the definition of the phrase hasn’t kept up with the practical application. If the unrealized wealth is providing tangible value, e.g. as collateral for a loan, is it “unrealized?” Seems pretty obvious it’s very realized and should be taxed as such.
I was talking about withholding, where I pay taxes that will never come due. On reflection maybe isn’t a perfect analogy.
You haven’t made a persuasive argument (or any argument really) against, you just keep insisting it’s a bad idea.
One thing that stands out is you keep referring to “money that may never exist”. That’s not how tax works. You are taxed on the basis of your income, which is often but not always monetary. This is both intuitive and consistent with existing tax code. If you don’t like it you have a much bigger problem than objecting to taxing unrealized cap gains.
If you can buy shit with it, it has value and can be taxed. There’s no need for playing “Schrödinger’s Gains” where the value is simultaneously worthless because it may/may not be realized yet it’s leveraged into material wealth of every kind. It’s like saying rich people don’t have money because it’s all tied up in assets, but somehow they have multiple homes, a yacht, and private jet trips. That is an incredibly disingenuous argument that completely sidesteps how wealth works.
Yeah it’s really very simple. That person is being purposely obtuse for whatever reason (either they have a ton of unrealized gains that they themselves have been using as leverage for years, or they believe that they are a “temporarily embarrassed millionaire” who will need these lax tax laws in the near future when they are suddenly extremely wealthy somehow).
As soon as you use those “unrealized gains” to make more money, they become realized and should be taxed. Simple.
I figured they were just another billionaire apologist.
I think they were realized, in the OP’s example, when they were used as collateral for loans, etc?
If you’re just sitting on unrealized gains, then yea maybe they don’t necessarily need to be taxed. But as soon as you use it as a means to acquiring more money, then they become realized and should be taxed.
The thing about borrowing money might be one of the dumbest things I’ve read here. Do you honestly believe that people who have access to loans (typically at much lower interest rates than us normies), etc., that it doesn’t give them 1000x more opportunity to gain more than any normal person who doesn’t have those means?
Do you actually not understand how having money makes it wayyyyyyy easier to make money?
That’s all great but then why the fuck am I paying property tax on my house that is mostly unrealized gains. Before you go arguing to abolish property tax, I’m fine with it. My property tax goes to make my neighbor better, and provide services and schooling for my neighbors.
Billionaires become rich because their companies benefit from highways, regulated internet, a public educated work force, etc… so they should pay their fare share.
Taxing unrealized gains for 99% is ok, it should be the same for the 1%.
Property tax has nothing to do with unrealized gains. It is an attempt to charge a services tax in an equitable way. It is like putting road taxes in gasoline. Framing it as a crude consumption tax would be more appropriate.
The property tax you pay on your home is a tiny fraction of its value. If we were charging those kinds of tiny percentages to billionaires you would be up in arms.
I do not have to argue abolishing property taxes because they do not introduce the kinds of brain dead distortions that “unrealized gains” taxes would. Even still, there are actually carve outs for them in most countries. Where I live, as an example, seniors can defer property tax until the property is sold ( you know, until the wealth has been realized ). As I said above though, it is really a service tax and so, even when delayed, the amount is based on assessed value every year.
If property tax was a model for your unrealized gains tax it would have these features:
- quite a small percentage of the assessed value
- the ability to defer until value had been realized
Based on the discussion here, a tax like that is not going to satisfy the mob.
Like I said, tax the rich. Tax the hell out of them. Just don’t do it in such a broken way.
Stop acting like I am defending rich people or arguing against taxes. I have been very clear that I am not. It seems equally clear that you have no rational response to what I am saying which is why you keep pretending that I am arguing for wealth inequality instead of just math. The people hit hardest by bad tax policy are always the middle class. The same would be true of a wrong-headed unrealized gains tax, no matter how much shouting about billionaires was used to make it more popular.
Maybe we’re strawmaning each other. I would be fine with a 1-2% tax on billionaire wealth that’s sitting as unrealized gains.
Taxing me on the value of my house is absolutely similar to taxing unrealized gains. If my house gained value that doesn’t mean my income did. There is no guarantee that I can afford it. I can’t sell my house to pay the tax. The same arguments used to defend billionaires applies to me as well, but somehow we’re supposed to feel bad for them but we’re ok with the middle class paying essentially the same thing as unrealized gains on the asset they own that’s mostly likely 99% of their net worth.
Can you tell me what is broken with expecting someone that holds $100b in unrealized gains to pay %1 tax on it
Using stock as collateral for loans with insanely low interest rates is very, very common among even engineers in big tech. It’s a well known loophole passed on by the older engineers/managers at the companies to the younger ones. From the perspective of eventually paying the tax it doesn’t help, but inflation will outpace the interest on one of these loans so it does lower the effective rate and more importantly for the economy as a whole is cash earned/spent without having been taxed. Ya it will need to be paid back eventually, but that can take decades.
So how does taxing unrealized gains work. If I purchase stock X at a specific price. If the stock goes up and I now am holding 150% of my original value. Let’s say it hovers there for 3 more years. After 3 years it tanks and is now worth only 50% of my original purchases. Are people suggesting that I pay taxes on the unrealized gain of 50%, even though I end up selling at loss and have realized negative value. Doesn’t that mean I am being taxed on losing money? How does that make sense?
The moment you use them as a collateral, they should be taxed as money.
You took a 10 billions loan with the actions you have as collateral? You pay taxes on these 10 billions.
Right now, the system is rigged because the richs get to transform their collateral into liquidity while paying 0 taxes on that, and they can even write off the interest on the interest incurred.
I guess that’s whats lost in the meme. Just because you “can” use something as collateral doesn’t mean you “are” using something as collateral. The language should be more accurate to describe actual use vs hypothetical.
Frankly I feel like the better option is to just not let people borrow based on stocks at all. Even if you paid in at X price, there’s no guarantee it’ll still be at X price or greater when the loan comes due, so to speak.
I mean, in the UK, we see the “loan against unrealised, paid off to a zero tax position” trick as the disguised remuneration package that it is.
In fact, it only America, out of the western nations, that allows that.
You took payment of a sum of money, specifically related to unrealised gain. Therefore, the gains are realised.
Thank you. This is the correct solution.
You took payment of a sum of money, specifically related to unrealised gain. Therefore, the gains are realised.
I don’t think this is accurate. I’ll break down what I mean.
You took payment of a sum of money
Yes.
specifically related to unrealised gain
Yes.
Therefore, the gains are realised.
No. Gains realized would be an unambiguous outcome with zero question to the providence or final outcome. That isn’t what a loan against assets are. There is a third step you’re skipping.
A lender is making a business decision to absorb the risk of giving you money where they may not get their money back even with the asset you gave them. The value of the assets can change both positively (which would be immaterial to the lender) or negatively (which would absolutely be material to the lender).
In today’s rules it means that the lender would lose out if the borrower defaults, and the collateral asset sells for less than the loan amount. The only loser is the lender, and they are choosing to take that risk. The worst case scenario to the lender is losing 100% of the loaned amount (plus whatever trivial costs of administrative overhead for servicing the loan) because the asset is worthless.
In the rules you’re proposing (the worst case scenario) if the borrower defaults, the lender loses 100% of the loaned amount, the borrower loses 25%-33% of the value of the loan, and the government would gain 25%-33% of taxes on money that never existed because the asset is worthless.
Don’t you worry. I know very familiar with what you mean.
I’m not suggesting that Americas tax rules haven’t been utterly compromised by billionaires. I’m saying that, in other countries, that’s tax evasion.
They would have to sell to realise the loss and declare it to claim the tax relief. The other alternative is that billionaires never pay tax on their capital gains and that would be a bat shit crazy way to run an economy.
Realization isn’t restricted to “unambiguous outcome with zero question to the providence or final outcome” even in the existing tax code, and what does “final” even mean.
It’s mostly an administrative convenience that we work with sale as the archetypal realization event. And collateralized borrowing is a very good candidate for realization as it inherently involves valuation.
Regarding losses, yeah you could then realized losses which could be used to offset gains from other sources, rolled forward into future tax years and so forth. That’s all a pretty normal part of wealth and tax planning for people with ample and complicated finances. They hire people to handle this, don’t worry about them.
No…see you bought the stock. You don’t have enough of a hoard for us to worry about not to mention the value of that stock will be used in the economy more than likely when You retire or need it.
How it will work is you are an early owner or investor and your hoard pile is over $100 million. Now when your hoard pile goes up 7% you have $107 million. We tax you on your wealth over $ 100 million. Let’s say 25% tax on that $7 million if you choose to hold onto it. Your wealth tax bill will be $1,750,000 that year (plus minus other factors). You can choose to sell your $7 million and it is currently taxed at 18% for realized tax gains if you held onto the stock for over a year or income % tax rate if short term trade.
What this does is increase the public ownership in companies as there is more stock for everyone and decreases the hoarding of companies by the wealthy. It also makes stock prices more honest so people don’t hoard the stock count to inflate prices.
Let’s say you own other assets. A house. It is just like property tax if you can’t afford the tax bill you don’t own the house or…your house isn’t worth that much. If you have tons of homes you may have to sell it to the people rather than rent. And if your hoard of assets is in other random collectibles you pay the tax bill to maintain your collection or share the ownership with others.
As for private companies that will be an interesting thing. I would say when your company is worth $100 million you have to divest the ownership to others. But idk. Legalize will figure it out we can also have exceptions for things like house value or other random things
Unironically, isn’t that exactly how property taxes work on land and housing?
Housing is taxed at the value of the property, not the difference between the value of the property and the purchase price.
housing exists
It’s not. Unrealised gains is basically an item in your shelf that hasn’t been sold, you can tell other people this item worth X now and you can get a loan with that item as a guarantee, but since you haven’t sell it and turn it into money, you still have $0 and an item that worth X. These people failed basic economic.
“can” vs “do” are different things. The meme quote describes hypothetical use, not actual use, as being something that should be taxable.
What you mean by “hypothetical use” vs “actual use”? In your own comment you mention nothing about “hypothetical use” yet here you talk about one, OOP also failed to mention anything about hypothetical use and only talk exclusively about unrealised gain. If unrealised gain(stock, asset, etc) is used to trade for another item, then yes, it’s already a realised gain, the tax should be levied on the item purchased or the asset sold, whichever makes sense. If the unrealised gain is used to secure a loan, then no, it shouldn’t be taxed because it’s only change hand on paper, and the loan came with interest, and you have to pay back that loan. Net worth is nothing but a dick measuring contest, taxing it makes no sense.
So no, unrealised gain shouldn’t be taxed because it’s unrealised, it’s like taxing a grocery store’s unsold item.
Why not tax on a regular basis based on the current value, just like we do with houses?
That’s how the rich get richer. They never gamble with their own money. They gamble with other people’s money, secured (hah) by their assets.
Yes a minority of us peons who are privileged enough to own property or lots of stocks can play-act like they’re rich by taking out reverse mortgages or doing options trading, but it’s nothing like what the actual rich can get away with.
The top 10% own 67% of the wealth in the U.S.
The tax rate during the New Deal (which corresponded with the largest jump in GDP and middle class growth) on people earning $200k and over (now would be like earning $2.5 million/year) was 95%.
During the 50’s through the early 80’s, that tax on the wealthiest was at 70%.
Now it’s at 37%, less than half of what it was during the best years of growth our country ever experienced.
This Unrealized gains tax would only impact people worth more than $100 million who do not pay at least a 25% tax rate on their income.
Additionally, you’d only pay taxes on unrealized capital gains if at least 80% of your wealth is in tradeable assets (i.e., not shares of private startups or real estate). One caveat is that there would be a deferred tax of up to 10% on unrealized capital gains upon exit.
In short, it would not apply to most startup founders or investors, but would impact top hedge fund managers.
They can afford it. TAX THEM.
I wouldn’t be a huge fan of taxing unrealized gains if we hadn’t been cutting taxes for the rich for 50 years. How else are we ever going to recover from that? These guys COULD have done the right thing and supported sensible taxation policies, but they didn’t, so fuck 'em. At this point it’s either this or the guillotine.
About 70 years.
What’s crazy is to calculate the average US income the census folks of the US government exclude billionaires because it would skew reality so much that people would call bullshit on the average with billionaires in the mix.
so they get to be excluded from the “average wage per family” calculations made and distributed by the government.
I think you’re conflating average and mean. When it comes to income average is typically median, which does include billionaires but wouldn’t skew the data due to their inclusion.
Average and mean are the same thing (sum of everything divided by total number of things). Median is the middle number.
Colloquially, average is the mean. Mathematically, average can be either mean, median, or mode.
No, that’s just the arithmetic mean. There a other often more appropriate means that can be used. Arithmetic mean is just the one most commonly taught.
Could I see the numbers?
I’ve never heard that, would be wild if that’s truly how they do it, I wonder what the average would be if they included the billionaire family’s.
TBH I’m not even considered middle class where I live but I have Unrealized Gains in the form of $VYM and Bitcoin.
I think we should tax loans where stocks are used as Collateral, or set a high bar for Unrealized Gains Tax.
The bar being talked about right now is a net worth of 100million usd, do you have a net worth of 100million? If not your bitcoin is safe.
Maybe some current proposed legislature has set that bar, but this picture of a tweet does not talk about that.
That picture is referencing Kamala’s proposed tax policy where she wants to tax unrealized capital gains on individuals worth 100mill exclusively
The tweet does not say Kamala, it does not mention “The President’s Budget” that was announced by Biden early this year, it just says that unrealized gains are not being taxed.
There is of course the implication of modern policy but I think it is healthy to include nuance and context as I have.
It’s almost like things can exist in a cultural context without explicitly defined connections.
Just say “oh, I didn’t realize” instead of digging your heels in.
Whats your problem, mate? Why is context and discussion banned in your world?
You’ll only help the liars and fiends by painting Kamala’s policy as anything other than what it is.
Says the person doing that exact thing?
That has been the baseline since the beginning. If you aren’t worth 100million there is no reason you shouldn’t support this.
There’s no reason to support it if you are worth that much.
Yeah the double negative in there
There is no beginning, Unrealized Gains taxes were enforced from the founding of this nation until the late 1960s when general properties taxes in the states shifted to no longer include intangible assets, and have been a hot topic the entire time.
If you’re referring to the President’s Budget plan announced bt Biden early this spring then thats fine. But they didn’t mention it.
Any reported bitcoin savings are unsafe because the database will get leaked. The first rule of Bitcoin is “Never tell anyone how much bitcoin you have.”
Of course, one could always just lie, but that hasn’t been even close to necessary for anyone’s safety yet.
Ugh. It would be so much simpler to…
… Remember those memes about what you could build with a single pandemic stimulus check? From home depot?
I don’t know man, I don’t really think building millions of birdhouses will accomplish much.
/s 😉
By pay check is unrealized gains. I still have bills to pay. Stop taxing me.
You’re not on the level of wealth this thread is about so you have nothing to worry about. Besides, your income is already taxed and in some countries it is deducted by the employer before you ever see your salary.
No shit. I’m saying its not a real gain because I haven’t deducted my living expenses like rent and groceries before my employer deducts my taxes.
But that means rich people will be slightly less rich. That will never happen.
Please vote for the Tax the Rich Party and not the Gut the IRS Party.
Taxes on unrealized stock gains are fine as long as I can get my money back from the government when the stock market goes down.
Property tax is already an unrealized gain tax.
You would! Unrealized losses could be used to offset gains. If one stock goes down and another goes up, you would pay tax on the net gain, and you could take a deduction on the net loss.
The tax could also be structured so that it only applies when borrowing against the gains, so it could be rolled into the cost of the loan.
Yeah, treat tax on collateral as advance on capital gains tax
The entire market can go down. There’s no offsetting when your total value is down.
The tax could also be structured so that it only applies when borrowing against the gains
That’s fine and completely different from paying a tax on something when it has gone up but not getting the money back when it goes down.
If your total value is down, you aren’t going to be able to borrow against the gains, anyway. So no taxable event.
Let’s be clear, this is a loophole that rich people take advantage of to avoid paying taxes on income. By borrowing instead of selling, they get the profit without incurring a taxable event. It’s one of many ways capitalists siphon profit from the system while providing nothing in return.
This isn’t about borrowing against assets. I’m fine if that’s taxable.
This is about holding a stock and paying tax just for owning it despite it might be worthless when you go to sell it.
But you can already deduct losses from your taxes, up to $3,000 per year and if you have more than that, you can carry it forward. If it’s worthless when you sell, you can deduct all of the loss from your taxes.
If paying a large amount of taxes on money you didn’t make today because you can save a little money on taxes later makes sense, then I have a deal for you:
You give me $60k today and I agree to pay you back $3,000 a year until you’ve got that $60k back.
Stocks can and do frequently spike for a year or two just because the public has a fad. The stock goes back to the price you paid for it. You don’t have any losses when selling. You paid taxes on money you don’t have.
You’re just throwing random numbers around. Stocks generally aren’t that volatile, but when they do rise and fall quickly there’s usually a reason.
Like let’s say you bought GameStop stock, and it experiences extreme volatility. Let’s keep the math easy and say you start with 100 shares of stock worth $10k total, and the stock jumps to $100k. Having diamond hands, you don’t want to sell, but you owe 28% of the $90k you “made” on the stock, which can be spread out over 9 years. You sell $2,800 worth of stock this year, and you’re left with $97,200. The next year, the stock tanks to it’s original value. You have $9,720 in stock, and you have a $2,800 prepaid tax credit for whenever you decide to sell the stock. The next year, the company goes bankrupt and dissolves. You have a $10,000 loss which you can deduct from taxable income over four years, and a $2,800 tax credit.
Two things are important in this example: Such taxes only apply to individuals who have over $100 million in wealth. Nobody is going to end up poor because of the “burden” of paying a reasonable tax. The second point is that short term investments are taxed as regular income. So the example isn’t great, anyway.
In spite of those caveats, it highlights the insignificance of the additional tax burden for capitalist speculators in volatile markets. Such a tax structure discourages hoarding and market manipulation while removing the loophole that the wealthiest individuals use to avoid most taxes altogether.
Another very good solution here
Property tax is already an unrealized gain tax.
It certainly is. Now, note how the only thing akin to stocks that non-rich people can play games with the worth of is taxed. That’s because non-rich people need property as well. If property was only owned by rich people, you’d get a credit on your taxes for owning it.
Unrealized stock gains are companies that have been shorted into bankruptcy, so the value doesn’t change.
Could you explain what you mean? This isn’t about shorting into bankruptcy.
This is about you buying a stock in a company and it goes up like crazy (Game Stop). You now owe thousands in taxes that year. The next year it goes down to less than you paid and you need to sell the stock. You paid taxes for losing money
Investors short a company. As the value drops, the value of the short increases. When the company goes bankrupt, the short play reaches full value, since it costs 0 to buy the shares. It also means that gain is unrealized and has permanent value until the short is exercised, which they never do because it’s a taxable event.
That has absolutely nothing to do with buying a stock, it goes up crazy for a year. Then you owe a huge tax bill despite the stock being worthless the next year when you need to sell it.
Thousands of companies go up one year and go down the next. They aren’t bankrupt.
That’s an unrealized gain to the tax man, but a bank won’t loan you money against it, because like you said, it could drop to zero. If you hold a short position in a company that goes bankrupt then there’s no mechanism for the value to drop after that point. It’s a glitch in the market that can be exploited, if you’re rich enough.
I still don’t understand why you are bringing up the rare case of a company going bankrupt and shorting the stock?
MSFT was $28 in 1998, $58 in 2000 and back to $28 in 2001. You’d have paid capital gains tax for 3 years despite making $0 capital gains and taking $0 losses. There’s no bankruptcy.
Property tax is a wealth tax, not an unrealized gain tax. You still pay if your property value goes down, you just pay less.
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