• mojofrododojo@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    As a theory, sure. I just have yet to see it expressed in any functional way that didn’t devolve into a shit show. See: Russia, etc.,

    I think it’s telling that so many wish for a return to communism but still defend Putin’s atrocities. :|

    • rwtwm@feddit.uk
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      2 months ago

      My concern with this line of argument is that it bundles consequences from a system of government up with the consequences of trade embargoes and other hostile actions from capitalist economies. That doesn’t make the actions of the dictators in those countries justifiable in any way, but might have precipitated conditions that made them more likely.

      How would communist nations have fared if the US had taken a ‘live and let live’ approach to them? The approach during the cold war was that they couldn’t be allowed to succeed. That led to the sort of standards of living where dictatorship tends to thrive. Note this isn’t unique to communist countries. Look at the Republican party in the US, now that Neoliberalism is failing.

      • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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        2 months ago

        It also ignores that Socialism in AES states has generally resulted in mass reductions in poverty, increases in literacy, education, home ownership, and life expectancy.

          • AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml
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            2 months ago

            You’re a fucking idiot if you think the problem with those countries is communism and not unceasing imperial violence targeted at them from the global core of wealth and fascism.

            But even living under conditions of siege warfare they still manage to provide housing and healthcare to their people which make them objectively better places to live than the US, which deliberately keeps a large population homeless because of the coercion it creates for the working class.

              • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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                2 months ago

                I already answered you, living in the US is currently better than some AES states, because development isn’t something magical. However, I would absolutely pick an AES state over the US in the comimg years. Hell, the PRC is in many ways ahead of the US for the average worker already.

                • prettybunnys@sh.itjust.works
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                  2 months ago

                  Serious question because it is relevant to the discussion, do you currently have a job?

                  Do you live in one of these western countries?

                  What is your personal frame of reference that tells you you’d have a better life than where you are in Cuba or Laos or North Korea?

                  What would china give you right now that you would move there for?

                  Please, be specific so I can understand.

                  Pretend you had a chance to convince me instead of angrily and frustratedly arguing your point in a defensive manner.

                  I believe in socialism, it’s been incorporated into democracy quite well actually and provided significant quality of life for its citizens.

                  Communism on the other hand has largely always moved to an authoritarian beat, China and Laos and Cuba and North Korea are all prime examples of this in the present day. Much like the two party system in the USA has hindered its democracy I don’t see how a one party system with strong central rule is not a HUGE step back from that. At least we have a semblance of choice and the mechanisms to fix what is broken.

                  Why do you prefer a form of government that takes choice away from its citizens?

      • mojofrododojo@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        maybe, before the '56 invasion this could have happened, but I’m dubious. And after Hungary, lol, fuck right off thinking the capitalist world should support your communist brutality.

        • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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          2 months ago

          So large increases in literacy rates, life expectancy, home ownership, education access, healthcare access, and democratization of society is “devolving into a shitshow?”

          Do you think Russians were better off under the thumb of the Tsar? Do you think Cubans were happier as slaves in Batista’s US-backed slave-state? What point are you genuinely trying to make?

          • Soulg@sh.itjust.works
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            2 months ago

            First part is a result of industrialization.

            Second part, no they weren’t, but that just means that they were worse off before, not that they were great afterwards.

            I genuinely think the idea of communism is great, but human nature will ensure that it will never be successful. There will always be someone who gets greedy and takes more for themselves in the pursuit of wealth and power.

            • human nature will ensure that it will never be successful

              Human nature is to be kind and helpful. Humans are social creatures. We wouldn’t have survived for thousands of years if everyone said “fuck you got mine”.

              Even if that were true, you are saying we should continue with the system that rewards stuff like greed, rather than try to have a system that doesn’t. “Human nature” is an argument for socialism/communism.

            • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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              2 months ago

              First part is a result of industrialization.

              Partially, the other huge part is that the products of production were funneled into safety nets and state projects like railways and universities, providing free education and healthcare, and not corporate profits.

              I genuinely think the idea of communism is great, but human nature will ensure that it will never be successful. There will always be someone who gets greedy and takes more for themselves in the pursuit of wealth and power.

              What’s considered “Human Nature” changes alongside Mode of Production. It isn’t Human Nature to be greedy, greed is more often expressed within Capitalism.

              Additionally, wealth disparity went way down in the USSR. It wasn’t a case where some few individuals profited massively and others lived in squalor, wealth disparity skyrocketed after it collapsed.

              Are you familiar with Marxist Theory? You have a decidedly Idealist take, rather than Materialist.

        • eatCasserole@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          I see China building renewable energy capacity, and crazy fast trains, faster than the rest of the world combined.

          I see Cuba, a tiny island nation, still independent after 64 years of brutal US sanctions.

          I see Vietnam, a popular retirement destination for American ‘expats’.

          I see Russia, being fairly shitty and also 100% capitalist for 25 years.

          Hmm, seems like you may have been told a bunch of times that communism is bad but never really looked into it.

          • Rinox@feddit.it
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            2 months ago

            I see China starting to prosper as soon as they dropped the Communist economic model and opened up to capitalism, private ownership and free trade. I see Vietnam starting to do the same.

            I see NK, a more developed nation than SK right after the war, very close to their communist allies and having the second biggest economy as trade partner and neighbor (USSR first, China now) now being irrelevant economically while you can’t even enter or exit the country freely. In the meanwhile SK managed to become a global power. Btw, what’s up with communist countries and not letting anyone enter or exit the country freely?

            I see Vietnam, a popular retirement destination for American ‘expats’.

            Pretty sure this has nothing to do with communism. Happens also in Indonesia or Thailand and has all to do with them being poor as fuck and the huge human trafficking business happening in those countries. And those “expats” are the worst of the worst scum on earth, trust me

            • eatCasserole@lemmy.world
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              2 months ago

              The USA and the international institutions they control have done an impressive job making it look like open markets equals prosperity, but when you look just under the surface, a different picture emerges.

              Vietnam, for example, was denied access to IMF loans, while trying to rebuild after an absolutely brutal war that basically set them back to the stone age. Only once they agreed to certain liberal reforms were they allowed access to the funds and resources they needed.

              If you’re not really paying attention, it looks like you’re right.

          • Soulg@sh.itjust.works
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            2 months ago

            China is extremely capitalist lmao

            I’m not fucking defending capitalism or demonizing communism, it’s just never worked. I see absolutely zero reason to expect any difference if we tried it in the us

            • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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              2 months ago

              China is Socialist with Chinese Characteristics, the CPC practices large and extensive levels of State Planning and the People’s Democracy structure means the Capitalists in China do not control nor guide the State.

              Capitalism exists in China as a concession, it isn’t some fully Socialized state, but it is a transitional economy.

              Read China Has Billionaires.

            • eatCasserole@lemmy.world
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              2 months ago

              Nuh-uh, Xi pressed the big red communism button and now all the capitalism is gone!

              [is joke, obviously that’s not how it works]

              “It’s just never worked” is ignorant though. Every nation that has tried to dump capitalism has has successes and failures, and there are many factors that contribute to each. Economies are extremely complex and you simply can’t say anything intelligent without getting at least a bit more in-depth than “works/doesn’t work”.

    • uis@lemm.ee
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      2 months ago

      See: Russia, etc.,

      Last time I checked sheikh-esque palaces and yachts are something that is not communism. Same goes for Putin’s oligarchs.

      I think it’s telling that so many wish for a return to communism but still defend Putin’s atrocities. :|

      For some reason I see them less than few years ago. I wonder why…

      • mojofrododojo@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        Putin’s oligarchs.

        And where did Putin come from?

        For some reason I see them less than few years ago. I wonder why…

        probably because they’re losing their love of this special military operation slightly exceeding it’s 3-days-to-kiev plan. Those dumb sonsabitches brought their dress uniforms for the parades they knew were going to happen.

        lol

        • uis@lemm.ee
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          2 months ago

          And where did Putin come from?

          Some from behind desk near him in KGB, some are his neighbours.

          First can be solved with lustrations. KGB, FSB, NSA, FBI - they greatly harm society.

          Both can be reduced by destruction of iron throne. “All power power to soviets” v2. Most of Europe already into parlamentarism, so nothing unusual.

          • mojofrododojo@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            Both can be reduced by destruction of iron throne. “All power power to soviets” v2.

            This would be grand, good luck! Make it happen.

      • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
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        2 months ago

        Luckily most countries don’t believe the lies the US is trying to spread about China.

          • MaeBorowski@lemmy.ml
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            2 months ago

            Just take a look at any mainstream western media that mentions China and it shouldn’t take too long to spot a lie, it will probably even be in the headline. Even just the fact that it’s practically a joke-meme that anything China does that is unambiguously positive will get a headline in the west that includes “But At wHaT cOsT?!?”

            But for a few obvious, overt examples: Uighur “genocide.” Spy balloons. Winnie the Pooh ban. Social credit scores.

              • MaeBorowski@lemmy.ml
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                And just to add, if you somehow missed it like I did (until just a minute ago), @davel@lemmy.ml provided a ton of information debunking the Uyghur “genocide” myth right here in this very thread. He just did a great favor for any well-meaning liberals who actually want to find out more about what the situation really is in Xinjiang, he basically did yall’s homework for you.

              • MaeBorowski@lemmy.ml
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                2 months ago

                Well, the most serious lie fortunately has the most material that thoroughly proves its falsehood. The following link contains more links to many such resources: https://xinjiangahr.carrd.co/ It’s a place to start, both if you want just immediate proof that there is no genocide as well as if you want to learn more about what really has been going on in Xinjiang.

                Even though they still are obligated to call it a spy balloon because The Narrative is still officially that it was, even western media have quietly admitted that despite flying across the continent, the balloon did absolutely no spying and actually appeared to be utterly incapable of doing any spying. Weird, how inefficient! And seriously, anyone who has even a passing knowledge of weather balloons or spycraft would have told you this from the beginning, as many did. https://xcancel.com/Reuters/status/1674507379306557462

                No, Winnie the Pooh is not banned in China and simply looking around a bit for things that exist in China confirms this. Telling people who live in China that people in the US believe Pooh is banned will result in laughter. This is in China, does it look banned? https://www.shanghaidisneyresort.com/en/attractions/adventures-winnie-pooh/ There was a racist caricature image/meme that along with portraying Xi as Pooh also portrayed Obama as the Tigger character. (I would hope no one here would need explaining why both of those are extremely racist). That specific racist image was officially censored online, but censoring racism is a good thing, and again, Pooh the character, the franchise, or anything else like that, none of it banned. That it was is just another silly lie. Though the whole of reddit (for example) believes the lie because it aligns with the rest of the bullshit they think they know about China which is just straight up false.

                China’s infamous “Social Credit Score” also isn’t real: https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/11/16/chinas-orwellian-social-credit-score-isnt-real/ There is a kind of rating system of businesses that allows people to score them based on how well they are a service to the community they’re in, but seeing as most people would recognize that as a good thing, the sinophobic propagandists won’t tell you that, but instead fabricate yet another bogus story to paint China as a boogeyman. This one is especially galling because all the scary things they made up with this one actually has a much worse version that is reality in the west. It’s such a blatant case of projection it’s jokerifying.

              • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
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                2 months ago

                For what exactly?

                Meanwhile in burgerland, Obama dropped an average of 60 bombs on north africa and the middle east every single day during his presidency. Have the US people held him to account, and have him face a war crimes tribunal for this atrocity against humanity?

                • Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world
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                  2 months ago

                  For what exactly?

                  Anything. One example of Xi being held to account disproves the description of an unaccountable dictator.

                  Obama dropped bombs

                  “The president has, in this capacity, plenary power to launch, direct and supervise military operations, order or authorize the deployment of troops, unilaterally launch nuclear weapons, and form military policy with the Department of Defense and Homeland Security.”

                  Yes, for these actions the president is accountable to no-one for 4 years.

        • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          The US and China are rapidly approaching a new kind of media-driven Cold War, with the unaligned nations being the battlefronts for dueling propaganda efforts. The problem that the western propagandists have is that they’ve generally gotten really bad at it. Gone are the days of Marshall Plans and international trade deals. All the NATO states seem to know how to do is ratchet up their sanctions regime.

          To quote Dr Lubinda Haabazoka, Director of the University of Zambia Graduate School of Business and former President of the Economics Association of Zambia

          Every time China visits we get a hospital, every time Britain visits we get a lecture.

          • MaeBorowski@lemmy.ml
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            2 months ago

            The US and China are rapidly approaching a new kind of media-driven Cold War

            I’d say we’re already there even though it is largely one-sided.

            with the unaligned nations being the battlefronts for dueling propaganda efforts

            How do you figure? I’m not saying you’re wrong, just rather I don’t see too much propaganda aimed at other nations, rather it’s imperial core countries aiming their propaganda at their own populations for usual consent-manufacturing reasons, and perhaps China aiming a little bit at their own population but to a far lesser extent as to be almost insignificant in comparison. China doesn’t really need to manufacture any consent domestically because it’s not the one saber-rattling for a conflict. When it comes to peripheral nations, the west mostly just says to them “do what we tell you to or else” and China mostly just says “hey, whatever, let’s just do some trading.”

            The problem that the western propagandists have is that they’ve generally gotten really bad at it.

            Well, in a way. You’re right that all they seem to know to do is ratchet up the sanctions, but their method of propaganda is sheer saturation. Make sure that every mainstream media outlet is on board with the anti-China propaganda and steer all major social media such that “China Bad!” appears to be a unanimous consensus, and job done. And it works extremely well. The state propaganda doesn’t need to be very sophisticated itself at this point because the consent-manufacturing machine has been built, maintained, and well-oiled for a long time already.

            To quote Dr Lubinda Haabazoka

            That is a great quote and really does sum up the comparison of how the west and China each approach international relations with would-be economic partners. It’s a good demonstration for why any propaganda battle between the west and China for the approval of the rest of the world would necessarily be so one-sided. One of them has to lie and endlessly make up excuses for their actions and behavior (bullying and swindling) while the other can just calmly gesture towards their actions and behavior (equal exchange and genuine support).

            • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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              2 months ago

              I’d say we’re already there even though it is largely one-sided

              When you’re in the belly of the beast, it’s easy to miss what’s going on outside. I don’t think it’s one sided, by any stretch.

              The state propaganda doesn’t need to be very sophisticated itself at this point because the consent-manufacturing machine has been built, maintained, and well-oiled for a long time already.

              The post WW2 Peace Dividend has largely played itself out, though. Our voracious appetite for extraction is costing us open ears internationally.

              Like, nobody in Saudi Arabia or Turkey or Israel or even Ukraine really takes the US propaganda seriously. They’ve got their own internal propaganda that is far more compelling, and it’s often diametrically opposed to the liberal democratic line.

              One of them has to lie and endlessly make up excuses for their actions and behavior (bullying and swindling) while the other can just calmly gesture towards their actions and behavior (equal exchange and genuine support).

              I think it is a mistake to think Chinese businessmen and bureaucrats are simply beyond bullying and swindling. But they don’t have the luxury of the world’s biggest military to swing around, nor do they have this ever-growing arsenal of privately developed weapons that they’re eager to exhaust and replenish.

              The incentives of a communist country are fundamentally different from a capitalist state. This allows Chinese diplomats to exercise techniques that NATO states do not have the political tool bag to deploy.

              • MaeBorowski@lemmy.ml
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                2 months ago

                When you’re in the belly of the beast, it’s easy to miss what’s going on outside. I don’t think it’s one sided, by any stretch.

                It’s true. my perspective is unavoidably limited by being in an imperial core country, but is there any evidence for how China is conducting a propaganda war against the US (or at all) anywhere near the same volume or scale that the US is against China?

                Like, nobody in Saudi Arabia or Turkey or Israel or even Ukraine really takes the US propaganda seriously. They’ve got their own internal propaganda that is far more compelling, and it’s often diametrically opposed to the liberal democratic line.

                Yeah, I agree. But that’s what I was getting a about the western propaganda being mostly designed for their respective domestic populations, it’s not produced for the sake of the common folk of non-western countries. Is the US even attempting to make propaganda directed at the populations of Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Israel, or Ukraine? They don’t need to, since for the most part, those who rule in those countries are in alignment with US interests anyway. The liberal democratic line exists (once again) for the population within the core countries themselves. Like, the US doesn’t give a single shit that Saudi Arabia is a theocratic monarchy. Ukraine? Vassals of NATO, of course their internal propaganda is in line with the US. They would never even think of siding with China over the US and despise China anyway for not siding against Russia. Israel can’t exist without the will and favor of the US, they are a massive military outpost for the west in the middle east and are autonomous only so far as they are willing to be more openly fascist in how they go about doing what the US wants them to do anyway, the US in no way needs to produce propaganda to influence them. Turkey does at least have some differing interests than the US, but they’re still a NATO country and so far haven’t had the reason or will to rock the boat in a way that is pro-China and anti-US.

                I think it is a mistake to think Chinese businessmen and bureaucrats are simply beyond bullying and swindling.

                Oh believe me, that’s not a mistake I’m making. But as has been said many times, business interests (owners of private capital) in China are on a leash held by the state, in the west it’s the other way around. I don’t doubt that Chinese capitalists would swindle just as much as any other capitalists, but they aren’t the ones calling the shots, the CPC is. And the CPC has repeatedly demonstrated that they only want to do fair, equal exchange, mutually beneficial economics with other countries. They don’t need a massive propaganda machine to convince their trading partners that this is their agenda since their actions over the last couple decades are convincing enough, hence the quote you posted: “Every time China visits we get a hospital, every time Britain visits we get a lecture.”

                The incentives of a communist country are fundamentally different from a capitalist state.

                Absolutely.

                This allows Chinese diplomats to exercise techniques that NATO states do not have the political tool bag to deploy.

                I guess I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. Techniques like equal exchange?

        • zzx@lemmy.world
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          As you add more parties into your conspiracy it gets harder to justify the existence of said conspiracy, no?

          Edit: since it’s confusing to you, look up Occam’s razor, I’m sure you’ll learn a thing or two

          • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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            I’m sure there’s a coherent statement in there, waiting to get out.

            But now that you’ve edited your previous comment to add mention of the Uyghur people, let’s talk about that:

            The US tried to foment division in China by funding and organizing terrorist cells in Xinjiang, and once those efforts failed, it concocted and promoted a genocide narrative. Antony Blinken is still pushing this slop.

            .
            The blueprint of regime change operations

            We see here for example the evolution of public opinion in regards to China. In 2019, the ‘Uyghur genocide’ was broken by the media (Buzzfeed, of all outlets). In this story, we saw the machine I described up until now move in real time. Suddenly, newspapers, TV, websites were all flooded with stories about the ‘genocide’, all day, every day. People whom we’d never heard of before were brought in as experts — Adrian Zenz, to name just one; a man who does not even speak a word of Chinese.

            Organizations were suddenly becoming very active and important. The World Uyghur Congress, a very serious-sounding NGO, is actually an NED Front operating out of Germany […]. From their official website, they declare themselves to be the sole legitimate representative of all Uyghurs — presumably not having asked Uyghurs in Xinjiang what they thought about that.

            The WUC also has ties to the Grey Wolves, a fascist paramilitary group in Turkey, through the father of their founder, Isa Yusuf Alptekin.

            Documents came out from NGOs to further legitimize the media reporting. This is how a report from the very professional-sounding China Human Rights Defenders (CHRD) came to exist. They claimed ‘up to 1.3 million’ Uyghurs were imprisoned in camps. What they didn’t say was how they got this number: they interviewed a total of 10 people from rural Xinjiang and asked them to estimate how many people might have been taken away. They then extrapolated the guesstimates they got and arrived at the 1.3 million figure.

            Sanctions were enacted against China — Xinjiang cotton for example had trouble finding buyers after Western companies were pressured into boycotting it. Instead of helping fight against the purported genocide, this act actually made life more difficult for the people of Xinjiang who depend on this trade for their livelihood (as we all do depend on our skills to make a livelihood).

            Any attempt China made to defend itself was met with more suspicion. They invited a UN delegation which was blocked by the US. The delegation eventually made it there, but three years later. The Arab League also visited Xinjiang and actually commended China on their policies — aimed at reducing terrorism through education and social integration, not through bombing like we tend to do in the West.

            • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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              2 months ago

              Oh AND, speaking of the periphery: Isn’t it strange how almost no predominantly-Muslim country has signed up for these supposed Uyghur human rights violations? It’s largely the imperial core countries that have. Is it because Muslims don’t value human life—even those of their fellow Muslims—or is it because it’s largely bullshit?
              https://twitter.com/un_hrc/status/1578003299827171330

              #HRC51 | Draft resolution A/HRC/51/L.6 on holding a debate on the situation of human rights in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of #China, was REJECTED.

      • OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml
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        Which international media? I’m guessing you mean media based in the US and US allies if you’re anti-china

  • kittenzrulz123
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    2 months ago

    Funny, the same thing happened when I realized that I’m Trans. It’s almost as if capitalist ran media is incentivised to lie and decive in ways that cause permanent damage.

      • AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml
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        2 months ago

        They defederated with .ca and .world because of all the racism, transphobia and general right wing culture in those instances and that’s basically all of the parent comments in here

        • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
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          Idk about .ca but .world defederated preemptively from .hexbear because their admins are selfaware wolves who knew hex would point out their rightwigness.

      • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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        Yes and no. They are federated with many communities, but the larger anti-Marxist instances like Lemmy.world are not federated. That’s by design, Hexbear wishes to protect their marginalized members such as their trans, queer, gender-nonconforming, and EM/POC communities.

          • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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            2 months ago

            What is a “redfash?” Is that your word for Marxists? What do you mean by “shock images,” hexbear emotes?

            • Fox@pawb.social
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              That’s how I’d characterize the insanely toxic comments stanning dictators and defending genocides that I saw regularly before my instance had enough

              • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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                Mind explaining what you mean by “stanning dictators” or “defending genocides?” Those are heavy allegations and that needs heavy proof.

                • Fox@pawb.social
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                  None of it is visible to me anymore, but I’d welcome you to view the admin defederation announcements, many of which included rationale and examples of that content.

  • Batman@lemmy.world
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    Lol I saw the comment that was removed. The comment couldn’t have been more neutral saying people who ignore the problems in the most Communist historical societies reduce the perceived integrity of it’s proponents.

    This mod is the exact antithesis of this meme. Pure censorship.

  • TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    “But… but… communism had never been tried!”

    “That wasn’t real communism!”

    “Read the theory!”

    “Communism is the solution to climate change.”— proceeds to industrialise Aral Sea leading to shrinkage; and built the Three Gorges Dam leading to the massive deforestation and loss of biodiversity in flooded lands

  • AlmightyTritan@beehaw.org
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    2 months ago

    Now I love boiling down the pitfalls of modern western society into large statements like “capitalism bad” and “communism good” as much as anyone, but having dealt with a bunch of people dismiss good change as “that’s communism” has made me rethink how I talk about topics online and in person.

    Now the accelerationist are gonna be mad about this for sure, but maybe you should start small, and discuss topics at a more local level. Then again the internet is world wide and everyone wants to talk about grand scale things.

    Basically, I’ve stopped telling people outside of my direct circle that leftism cool, and instead talk about socialised medicine programs, pushing for support of worker owned productions and business, getting involved with coop housing. Lot easier when you don’t have to bump up against the red scare.

      • YeetPics@mander.xyz
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        2 months ago

        That’s okay mods, you can absolutely hide all the ample evidence of suffering under communism.

        It doesn’t change the truth of the history or the words written in my great grandfather’s journals, highlighting the horrors that came with living in communist Russia.

        Edit; I hope it hurts you everyday that the entire world can see right through your bullshit. Communism has as much a chance at working as you do getting paid for modding here 🤷

        • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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          2 months ago

          If you say so. Let’s see your great grandfather’s journal entries about the horrors of communism.

          Communism has as much a chance at working as you do getting paid for modding here 🤷

          I don’t know why you think that we think that we’d get paid, or that we’re here to make a profit on a free site with no ads. What a weird, failed analogy.

          • BearOfaTime@lemm.ee
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            2 months ago

            Go dig him up and you can talk to him.

            I’m not then one tongue this in.My family,yet people like you want to call me a liar.

            OK, Pol Pot.

        • BearOfaTime@lemm.ee
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          2 months ago

          Haha,mods removed my comment about my grandparents escaping communism.

          Hypocrite much, mod? Gonna ban me from here now because you can’t handle the truth?

          I never got to meet my great aunt because standing survive things like the Holodomor.

    • YeetPics@mander.xyz
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      2 months ago

      Sad mod has to edit history to fit their narrative.

      Big sad .ml has fallen so fucking low.

      • MaeBorowski@lemmy.ml
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        2 months ago

        If .worlders could see hexbear and lemmygrad, they’d have an aneurysm. But then some of them would recover and look further into it and realize the commies are right. But that is of course why they’re not allowed to see it, as you said.

        • Fox@pawb.social
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          2 months ago

          Absolutely nothing of value was lost when my instance defederated from Hexbear

          • MaeBorowski@lemmy.ml
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            2 months ago

            When a person sees no value in challenging their misconceptions, but only a threat to be shunned, it makes sense they would say that, yeah.

            • zeppo@lemmy.world
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              2 months ago

              It’s more about immature and angsty dorks than “challenging misperceptions”

    • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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      2 months ago

      Because Lemmy.ml is federated with anti-leftist instances like Lemmy.world and Lemmy.ca. Lemmy.ml has a weird mix of very pro-Leftist posters and very anti-Leftist commenters because of this, people tend to post more on their own instances but often times scroll by all for commenting.

      More self-sufficient Leftist instances like Hexbear or Lemmygrad don’t see the same circumstances.

      • ShinkanTrain@lemmy.ml
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        2 months ago

        Why are liberals on a decentralized platform anyway? Surely the free market has provided adequate platforms for everyone’s needs

        • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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          The Liberals on instances like Lemmy.world are too ideological to stay on Reddit, but have read no Marxist Theory and have not correctly identified the reasons why Reddit went wrong, and was always destined to go wrong. If they were Leftists, they would join an instance that doesn’t defederate with Leftists as policy.

          That’s why Lemmy.world is just Reddit 2.

          • archomrade [he/him]@midwest.social
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            2 months ago

            They left reddit to teach them a lesson for changing the recipe of their favorite capitalist treat, but have given no thought or import to the decentralized nature of the platform they left it for.

          • danciestlobster@lemm.ee
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            2 months ago

            While I basically agree with this, I would argue there may be some liberals who just haven’t been exposed to actual communism/been too heavily propagandized and seeing the discourse on very left instances could gain some supporters. I guess this specific post comment section is maybe a bad example, but I would venture a guess most leftists were liberals once

            • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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              2 months ago

              I would venture a guess most leftists were liberals once

              This is the case for the great majority of us socialists on Lemmy, yes.

        • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
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          2 months ago

          Reddit took away their precious apps, that’s the only reason. They have no problems at all with its western-supremacist political aims.

        • zeppo@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          I’ve noticed “leftists” on Lemmy are reeeeaaallly confused about US politics.

      • ekZepp@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        Don’t cheer for Communism (or China) , means to be anti-leftist??

        Since when?

        • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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          2 months ago

          Lemmy.world directly opposes Marxism, and Marxist instances. That’s an anti-Leftist stance. Liberalism is the status quo, which is Right-Wing.

          • ekZepp@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            I don’t agree. Lemmy.world opposed (very)exaggerated extremisms of all the kind so far. One of the first post i’ve read on lemmy one year ago was about the defederation of some nazi instances. Nothing is perfect but calling lemmy.world anti-Leftist is a bit of a stretch.

            • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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              Lemmy.world is explicitly against Marxism, they defederated from Lemmygrad and Hexbear because of this, and sabre-rattle about defederating from even Lemmy.ml. This is anti-Marxism, plain and simple.

            • AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml
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              2 months ago

              Nothing is perfect but calling lemmy.world anti-Leftist is a bit of a stretch.

              Not if you have rigorous definitions of terms. You can’t call yourself a leftist and be anti-communist. The desire to abolish capitalism and move to a communist society is the defining trait of the left. The only distinction between tendencies is the method they wish to pursue that goal.

              The problem with debates like this is that the only people participating in it who actually know what they’re talking about are the communists.

    • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
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      The western-supremacists literally can’t keep their mouths shut, when given a chance to denounce any country they consider “barbarian”.

  • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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    2 months ago

    It’s worse when you say you’re a Communist or say Communism is good, and people agree, but when you advocate for AES or advocate for standard Marxist theory the same people flip on you and call you brainwashed.

    • A Cool Dude@lemmy.mlOPM
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      2 months ago

      I haven’t gotten that far with people yet. I have only met people who say “no communism” but “socialism” or “Democratic socialism” or “social democracy”

      • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
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        There are two kinds of deviations on the left, right-deviations (aka opportunists) that are succdems and such, basically defending capitalism and always siding with libs against communists, and the left-deviations (also called ultras, leftcoms etc. often including anarchism) who refuse to acknowledge every real-world attempt at socialism as “not real communism”, “statism”, “authoritarianism”, “state capitalism” etc. because real world has a habit of clashing with their ideals.
        Some short reading.

        If you want to met those latter people, probably just wait for the answers for my comment here, since there’s many of them here on fediverse.

      • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlM
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        I find it’s valuable to push people on the whole concept of democracy and getting them to understand that politics is about organization of the economy first and foremost. The key question is why we work in the first place and who decides on what the purpose of work is. If people believe in democracy then it necessarily has to extend to organization of labor as well. Having a democracy where a handful of oligarchs decide why and how people work is a farce.

  • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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    2 months ago

    Reporter: [REDACTED]
    Reason: Artificially upvoted

    😂 There is a spectre haunting Lemmy — the spectre of communist bots & trolls 👻