As a theory, sure. I just have yet to see it expressed in any functional way that didn’t devolve into a shit show. See: Russia, etc.,
I think it’s telling that so many wish for a return to communism but still defend Putin’s atrocities. :|
My concern with this line of argument is that it bundles consequences from a system of government up with the consequences of trade embargoes and other hostile actions from capitalist economies. That doesn’t make the actions of the dictators in those countries justifiable in any way, but might have precipitated conditions that made them more likely.
How would communist nations have fared if the US had taken a ‘live and let live’ approach to them? The approach during the cold war was that they couldn’t be allowed to succeed. That led to the sort of standards of living where dictatorship tends to thrive. Note this isn’t unique to communist countries. Look at the Republican party in the US, now that Neoliberalism is failing.
It also ignores that Socialism in AES states has generally resulted in mass reductions in poverty, increases in literacy, education, home ownership, and life expectancy.
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✋
You’re a fucking idiot if you think the problem with those countries is communism and not unceasing imperial violence targeted at them from the global core of wealth and fascism.
But even living under conditions of siege warfare they still manage to provide housing and healthcare to their people which make them objectively better places to live than the US, which deliberately keeps a large population homeless because of the coercion it creates for the working class.
Do you think changing Mode of Production magically transforms levels of development? Typical liberal.
Perfect, no response except to throw a question and “insult”
This is why you won’t be taken seriously ever.
I already answered you, living in the US is currently better than some AES states, because development isn’t something magical. However, I would absolutely pick an AES state over the US in the comimg years. Hell, the PRC is in many ways ahead of the US for the average worker already.
Serious question because it is relevant to the discussion, do you currently have a job?
Do you live in one of these western countries?
What is your personal frame of reference that tells you you’d have a better life than where you are in Cuba or Laos or North Korea?
What would china give you right now that you would move there for?
Please, be specific so I can understand.
Pretend you had a chance to convince me instead of angrily and frustratedly arguing your point in a defensive manner.
I believe in socialism, it’s been incorporated into democracy quite well actually and provided significant quality of life for its citizens.
Communism on the other hand has largely always moved to an authoritarian beat, China and Laos and Cuba and North Korea are all prime examples of this in the present day. Much like the two party system in the USA has hindered its democracy I don’t see how a one party system with strong central rule is not a HUGE step back from that. At least we have a semblance of choice and the mechanisms to fix what is broken.
Why do you prefer a form of government that takes choice away from its citizens?
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16·19 days agoEurope is not socialist. Socialism requires ownership of the means of production by the proletariat, no western European nation has had that, and the eastern ones got overthrown and capitalism re-instated.
Communism is ownership of production, socialism is social safety nets managed by the government like free Healthcare. And sure most of Europe probably is just the lite version of that.
No.
Socialism is Worker Ownership of the Means of Production, and a transitional state towards Communism.
Social Safety Nets are Social Safety Nets.
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socialism is social safety nets managed by the government like free Healthcare
That’s social, not socialist. Yes, entire Europe is social(maybe except UK), even dictatorships(Russia, Belarus) in Europe have social element. And Europe is not socialist for over 30 years.
Europe is Capitalist and Imperalist. What the USSR had was Socialism.
Please explain exactly why you think Europe is “Socialist,” lmao.
Even if you hate communism, calling the EU socialist is hilarious. Seems a lot of people in this thread have never even read a basic dictionary definition for socialism. I am surprised the people replying to you even know there is supposed to be a difference between socialism and communism.
Legitimately frustrating. As a Communist, I try my best to help people understand just what these terms actually mean, and explain why people such as myself support Communism, but there are people that cling to nonsense definitions and shroud themselves in mystery.
Decades of calling everything you don’t like, and any government support, communism, I guess.
Europe is socialist
The very first sentence from Wikipedia: Socialism
Socialism is an economic and political philosophy encompassing diverse economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.
Who owns the means of production in Europe? The capitalist class, same as in every other capitalist state. Social welfare under capitalism is not socialism.
what communist Russia had was a totalitarian government
I already covered this elsewhere in this post.
Go pound sand you ducking idiot.
We’re done here.
maybe, before the '56 invasion this could have happened, but I’m dubious. And after Hungary, lol, fuck right off thinking the capitalist world should support your communist brutality.
“Fascism is good, actually.”
get
fuckedoops that’s not civil.fuck fascism and it’s practitioners.
What do you mean by "devolve into a shitshow?
See every communist nation in history
So large increases in literacy rates, life expectancy, home ownership, education access, healthcare access, and democratization of society is “devolving into a shitshow?”
Do you think Russians were better off under the thumb of the Tsar? Do you think Cubans were happier as slaves in Batista’s US-backed slave-state? What point are you genuinely trying to make?
First part is a result of industrialization.
Second part, no they weren’t, but that just means that they were worse off before, not that they were great afterwards.
I genuinely think the idea of communism is great, but human nature will ensure that it will never be successful. There will always be someone who gets greedy and takes more for themselves in the pursuit of wealth and power.
human nature will ensure that it will never be successful
Human nature is to be kind and helpful. Humans are social creatures. We wouldn’t have survived for thousands of years if everyone said “fuck you got mine”.
Even if that were true, you are saying we should continue with the system that rewards stuff like greed, rather than try to have a system that doesn’t. “Human nature” is an argument for socialism/communism.
First part is a result of industrialization.
Partially, the other huge part is that the products of production were funneled into safety nets and state projects like railways and universities, providing free education and healthcare, and not corporate profits.
I genuinely think the idea of communism is great, but human nature will ensure that it will never be successful. There will always be someone who gets greedy and takes more for themselves in the pursuit of wealth and power.
What’s considered “Human Nature” changes alongside Mode of Production. It isn’t Human Nature to be greedy, greed is more often expressed within Capitalism.
Additionally, wealth disparity went way down in the USSR. It wasn’t a case where some few individuals profited massively and others lived in squalor, wealth disparity skyrocketed after it collapsed.
Are you familiar with Marxist Theory? You have a decidedly Idealist take, rather than Materialist.
LMAO
I see China building renewable energy capacity, and crazy fast trains, faster than the rest of the world combined.
I see Cuba, a tiny island nation, still independent after 64 years of brutal US sanctions.
I see Vietnam, a popular retirement destination for American ‘expats’.
I see Russia, being fairly shitty and also 100% capitalist for 25 years.
Hmm, seems like you may have been told a bunch of times that communism is bad but never really looked into it.
I see China starting to prosper as soon as they dropped the Communist economic model and opened up to capitalism, private ownership and free trade. I see Vietnam starting to do the same.
I see NK, a more developed nation than SK right after the war, very close to their communist allies and having the second biggest economy as trade partner and neighbor (USSR first, China now) now being irrelevant economically while you can’t even enter or exit the country freely. In the meanwhile SK managed to become a global power. Btw, what’s up with communist countries and not letting anyone enter or exit the country freely?
I see Vietnam, a popular retirement destination for American ‘expats’.
Pretty sure this has nothing to do with communism. Happens also in Indonesia or Thailand and has all to do with them being poor as fuck and the huge human trafficking business happening in those countries. And those “expats” are the worst of the worst scum on earth, trust me
The USA and the international institutions they control have done an impressive job making it look like open markets equals prosperity, but when you look just under the surface, a different picture emerges.
Vietnam, for example, was denied access to IMF loans, while trying to rebuild after an absolutely brutal war that basically set them back to the stone age. Only once they agreed to certain liberal reforms were they allowed access to the funds and resources they needed.
If you’re not really paying attention, it looks like you’re right.
China is extremely capitalist lmao
I’m not fucking defending capitalism or demonizing communism, it’s just never worked. I see absolutely zero reason to expect any difference if we tried it in the us
China is Socialist with Chinese Characteristics, the CPC practices large and extensive levels of State Planning and the People’s Democracy structure means the Capitalists in China do not control nor guide the State.
Capitalism exists in China as a concession, it isn’t some fully Socialized state, but it is a transitional economy.
Read China Has Billionaires.
Nuh-uh, Xi pressed the big red communism button and now all the capitalism is gone!
[is joke, obviously that’s not how it works]
“It’s just never worked” is ignorant though. Every nation that has tried to dump capitalism has has successes and failures, and there are many factors that contribute to each. Economies are extremely complex and you simply can’t say anything intelligent without getting at least a bit more in-depth than “works/doesn’t work”.
Vapid
I’ve looked, I see the exact opposite. Go back to reddit where you can wallow in ignorance without anybody noticing.
See: Russia, etc.,
Last time I checked sheikh-esque palaces and yachts are something that is not communism. Same goes for Putin’s oligarchs.
I think it’s telling that so many wish for a return to communism but still defend Putin’s atrocities. :|
For some reason I see them less than few years ago. I wonder why…
Putin’s oligarchs.
And where did Putin come from?
For some reason I see them less than few years ago. I wonder why…
probably because they’re losing their love of this special military operation slightly exceeding it’s 3-days-to-kiev plan. Those dumb sonsabitches brought their dress uniforms for the parades they knew were going to happen.
lol
And where did Putin come from?
Some from behind desk near him in KGB, some are his neighbours.
First can be solved with lustrations. KGB, FSB, NSA, FBI - they greatly harm society.
Both can be reduced by destruction of iron throne. “All power power to soviets” v2. Most of Europe already into parlamentarism, so nothing unusual.
Both can be reduced by destruction of iron throne. “All power power to soviets” v2.
This would be grand, good luck! Make it happen.
Any
currentreal-life examples of “communism good”?It’s been democratically instituted many times. And every time America marches in and “liberates” them.
It’s difficult to provide good examples when they’re all actively destroyed.
Mostly this, although Vietnam is doing quite well, especially considering their circumstances.
Cuba is also really interesting…not thriving, to be sure, but you have to end the US blockade before you blame them for their own hardships. And in spite of everything, they have democracy like we’ve never seen in the west.
Edit: also what beejboytyson said about Cuba.
The US dropped more napalm, and bombs, and agent orange on vietnam (a comparatively small country) than it did during all of WW2. Lots of its people are still suffering from this atrocity.
Sadly true. And most people aren’t aware that they did pretty much the same thing to Laos, who they weren’t even at war with. They just carpet bombed the whole country, “just in case.”
Fuck the USA. They’re literally the evil empire from star wars.
It’s so funny that george lucas was like: “the rebels are the vietnamese communists, and the empire is the USA (its soldiers the storm troopers)” and somehow a lot of modern star wars fans are extremely pro-US, and never connect the dots.
IMO the biggest critique of star wars, its that lucas didn’t focus at all on the lives of the stormtruppen, and force its audience in the imperial core to look in the mirror, at their values, their chauvinist culture, their pro-war ideology and news media.
Still gotta keep blaming the rebels for all the world’s problems.
That’s true, the storm troopers and stuff are basically presented as automatons. I guess some audiences like not having to think, but it would have been much more impactful to show them as people with their own beliefs and motivations and stuff.
There’s a lot of short stories about that in various books, though they tend to overuse both the tropes of banality of evil and the cackling evil maniacs.
Fuck Kissinger.
May he have pineapples shoved up his arse in hell, right next to old hitler.
You could’ve just typed “No”.
All the other things you’ve typed is nonsense anyways.
How so?
Democratically instituted communisim? For all the uppity yall get when someone suggests democratic socialist policies, you sure can’t seem to find the line you blurred.
My country was on the path of the democratically instituted socialism thing. Well, it tried but the United States instigated, funded and armed a military coup and the military dictatorship that followed.
Guess it’s better to have torture camps than gobbunism
Democratic Socialism is alive and well in many countries without any U.S. intervention. You must be referring to the fascist kind.
Ah, yes, the United States famously only interferes in fascist countries and not for benefit of plutocrats.
Also, which demsoc countries are you talking about where the means of production are controlled by the working class?
What is “Democratic Socialism” in your eyes?
In the “I disagree but can’t articulate a cogent reason for it” sense of the word “nonsense”, of course. 🙄
Might be worth reading up on history to put some facts behind those feelings. Either you’ll find out you’re right or you’ll update your beliefs to be more correct.
Our current attempt at democracy—the methods we’re using to elect our leaders—are fundamentally irrational.
They are rational, and they work as intended, it’s just that they’re not popular democracies, they’re bourgeois democracies, designed by & for the capitalist class and against the working class. They’re not meant to represent us.
Take the US, which has has been ruled by the bourgeoisie since the 1776 bourgeois revolution. The wealthy, white, male land-owning, largely slave-owning Founding Fathers intentionally constructed a bourgeois state with “checks and balances” against the “tyranny of the majority.” It was never meant to represent the majority—the working class—and it never has, despite eventually allowing women and non-whites (who aren’t disenfranchised by the carceral system) to vote. BBC: [Princeton] Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy
Ah yes my favorite authoritative source on the mathematics of democracy: a YouTube video.
Fuck off
Veritasium is legit, they cite their sources and explain concepts exceptionally well.
However, I don’t think the conclusion of the video is “Democracy is mathematically impossible”, but rather “perfect representation in a democracy” is mathematically impossible (but can still be much much better than FPTP).
The video basically goes through all the top voting systems and explains their pros and cons and the history of the mathematicians who invented the systems.
but rather “perfect representation in a democracy” is mathematically impossible (but can still be much much better than FPTP).
It’s not even that. The more accurate title would be “Ranked voting types cannot mathematically meet all of the requirements of democracy this one guy made”
The whole video I wanted to yell out “so switch to approval voting”.
The dude makes some pretty legit videos. He has a PhD in physics education research. Using YouTube is just a sign of the time we live in. Imagine if your professor quit their job to become a YouTuber because they thought it’d be a more effective medium for education than a whiteboard.
Mathematics is, in a sense, about abstraction and generalization, and the video covers an ideal, or set of axioms, you’d want from a voting system. This perfect system was proven to be impossible and the researcher was granted the Nobel prize in economics. In short, there can be no perfect voting system, and we must accept a compromise (much like an engineer). You can also say mathematics is about proofs, and, no matter how unintuitive something might seem, it leaves no room for doubt. It doesn’t hardly matter if the source comes from a YouTube video.
Edit: I don’t agree with the context the video was posted, but I was bothered by this response to it.
The title of that video is wildly misleading click bait. We should just switch to approval voting and be done with it.
Here you go, and before you say China is not really communist. That’s true that China is in a socialist stage of development led by the Communist party. However, it’s very clear that it is developing very differently from capitalist countries.
The real (inflation-adjusted) incomes of the poorest half of the Chinese population increased by more than four hundred percent from 1978 to 2015, while real incomes of the poorest half of the US population actually declined during the same time period. https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w23119/w23119.pdf
From 1978 to 2000, the number of people in China living on under $1/day fell by 300 million, reversing a global trend of rising poverty that had lasted half a century (i.e. if China were excluded, the world’s total poverty population would have risen) https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/China’s-Economic-Growth-and-Poverty-Reduction-Angang-Linlin/c883fc7496aa1b920b05dc2546b880f54b9c77a4
From 2010 to 2019 (the most recent period for which uninterrupted data is available), the income of the poorest 20% in China increased even as a share of total income. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SI.DST.FRST.20?end=2019&locations=CN&start=2008
By the end of 2020, extreme poverty, defined as living on under a threshold of around $2 per day, had been eliminated in China. According to the World Bank, the Chinese government had spent $700 billion on poverty alleviation since 2014. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/31/world/asia/china-poverty-xi-jinping.html
Then there are the massive poverty alleviation programs in China that have no comparison in the US https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/04/01/lifting-800-million-people-out-of-poverty-new-report-looks-at-lessons-from-china-s-experience
90% of families in the country own their home giving China one of the highest home ownership rates in the world. What’s more is that 80% of these homes are owned outright, without mortgages or any other leans. https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2016/03/30/how-people-in-china-afford-their-outrageously-expensive-homes
If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty
China also massively invests in infrastructure. They used more concrete in 3 years than US in all of 20th century https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2014/12/05/china-used-more-concrete-in-3-years-than-the-u-s-used-in-the-entire-20th-century-infographic/
China also built 27,000km of high speed rail in a decade https://www.railjournal.com/passenger/high-speed/ten-years-27000km-china-celebrates-a-decade-of-high-speed/
Such massive infrastructure projects directly improve the standard of living for the people of the country.
Social mobility happens to be really high as well https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/11/18/world/asia/china-social-mobility.html
Furthermore, people in China see their country working in their interest and hence view it as being far more democratic than people do living under the dictatorship of capital
- https://www.newsweek.com/most-china-call-their-nation-democracy-most-us-say-america-isnt-1711176
- https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2021/0218/Vilified-abroad-popular-at-home-China-s-Communist-Party-at-100
- https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-06-26/which-nations-are-democracies-some-citizens-might-disagree
- https://web.archive.org/web/20230511041927/https://6389062.fs1.hubspotusercontent-na1.net/hubfs/6389062/Canva images/Democracy Perception Index 2023.pdf
- https://www.tbsnews.net/world/china-more-democratic-america-say-people-98686
- https://web.archive.org/web/20201229132410/https://en.news-front.info/2020/06/27/studies-have-shown-that-china-is-more-democratic-than-the-united-states-russia-is-nearby-and-ukraine-is-at-the-bottom/
Meanwhile, if you want a historical example then look no further than USSR.
Russia went from a backwards agrarian society where people travelled by horse and carriage to being the first in space in the span of 40 years. Russia showed incredible growth after the revolution that surpassed the rest of the world:
- https://wid.world/document/soviets-oligarchs-inequality-property-russia-1905-2016/
- https://wid.world/document/appendix-soviets-oligarchs-inequality-property-russia-1905-2016-wid-world-working-paper-201710/
USSR provided free education to all citizens resulting in literacy rising from 33% to 99.9%:
- http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/archive/PubEdUSSR.htm
- http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/archive/anglosov.htm
- http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0000/000013/001300eo.pdf
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likbez
USSR doubled life expectancy in just 20 years. A newborn child in 1926-27 had a life expectancy of 44.4 years, up from 32.3 years thirty years before. In 1958-59 the life expectancy for newborns went up to 68.6 years. the Semashko system of the USSR increased lifespan by 50% in 20 years. By the 1960’s, lifespans in the USSR were comparable to those in the USA:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Soviet_Union
- https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB5054/index1.html
Quality of nutrition improved after the Soviet revolution, and the last time USSR had a famine was in 1940s. CIA data suggests they ate just as much as Americans after WW2 peroid while having better nutrition:
- https://www.scribd.com/document/430076844/CIA-RDP84B00274R000300150009-5-pdf
- https://artir.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/compar1.png?w=640
USSR moved from 58.5-hour work weeks to 41.6 hour work weeks (-0.36 h/yr) between 1913 and 1960:
USSR averaged 22 days of paid leave in 1986 while USA averaged 7.6 in 1996:
- https://www.ilo.org/public/libdoc/ilo/1994/94B09_66_englp2.pdf
- https://www.bls.gov/news.release/ebs.t05.htm
In 1987, people in the USSR could retire with pension at 55 (female) and 60 (male) while receiving 50% of their wages at a at minimum. Meanwhile, in USA the average retirement age was 62-67 and the average (not median) retiree household in the USA could expect $48k/yr which comes out to 65% of the 74k average (not median) household income in 2016:
- https://www.ilo.org/public/libdoc/ilo/1994/94B09_66_englp2.pdf
- https://www.cbsnews.com/news/could-you-get-by-on-the-average-americans-retirement-income/
GDP took off after socialism was established and then collapsed with the reintroduction of capitalism:
The Soviet Union had the highest physician/patient ratio in the world. USSR had 42 doctors per 10,000 population compared to 24 in Denmark and Sweden, and 19 in US:
-
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0735675784900482 (sci-hub for access)
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USSR defeated a smallpox epidemic in a matter of 19 days https://www.rbth.com/history/331857-how-ussr-defeated-black-smallpox
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The Social Consequences of Soviet Immunization Policies https://www.ucis.pitt.edu/nceeer/1997-812-03g-Hoch.pdf
So, how do people who lived under communism feel now that they got a taste of capitalism?
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Adult mortality increased enormously in Russia and other countries of the former Soviet Union when the Soviet system collapsed 30 years ago. https://archive.ph/9Z12u
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Former Soviet Countries See More Harm From Breakup https://news.gallup.com/poll/166538/former-soviet-countries-harm-breakup.aspx
The Free market paradise goes East chapters in Blackshirts and Reds details some more results of the transition to capitalism.
*crickets*, as usual.
tried actually having a conversation with the person, they’re just unresponsive to actual discussion.
From your first source
Figure 1 shows that China had very low inequality levels in the late 1970s, but it is now approaching the US, where income concentration remains the highest among the countries shown
sure, and that’s happening while the standard of living for the poor people continues to rise dramatically with each and every year
Do you live in china?
sadly no
May I ask why not? And if I’m not being too intrusive I’d be interested to know which country you do live in (I’m in the us)
Also really weird I never got a notification from your reply
I live in Canada, my family moved here back when I was still in school. I’d like to move to China one day, but it’s unlikely that I’d be able to do that in the foreseeable future. My parents are old and I’m not just going to abandon them to move half way across the world. That’s the main thing holding me back. In general, it’s not easy to just uproot your whole life and move to a different country to start anew. For example, I find even the language to be a challenge, I’ve been learning Mandarin for the past two years and I’m still not fluent in it. Getting a job in my field without knowing a language would be unlikely.
Very interesting thank you for sharing, so I gather that if you could make it work you would but it isn’t in the cards right now. I wonder how hard it would be to immigrate there.
It depends a lot on whether you can get a job. If you can, then you can get a work visa and you’re fine. A friend of mine lived in China for a decade, and he liked it. We both work in IT, there are a lot of jobs in that area, but also pretty competitive. From what I’ve read, China’s been recently relaxing immigration laws as well and they’re looking at creating a program similar to the green card in US. https://www.semafor.com/article/07/23/2024/china-is-considering-a-green-card-scheme-to-attract-more-foreign-scientists
It’s hard for me to look at % increases or “X out of poverty” or “This person makes 1+ what they did before!”. I get fed the same stuff about how great America is doing because of our “numbers”. Without being there it’s hard to grasp if what you’re saying is anything better, worse, or just par for the course of a developing nation with such a high output with manufacturing.
90% of families in the country own their home giving China one of the highest home ownership rates in the world. What’s more is that 80% of these homes are owned outright, without mortgages or any other leans. https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2016/03/30/how-people-in-china-afford-their-outrageously-expensive-homes
Seeing this statement and reading the link, they have absolutely nothing to do with each other and you make it seem like it’s a “quote” from the article (I’m guessing it’s from the 93 page research paper I’m reading through). They would’ve just been better off publishing whatever data they talked about researchers definitely having, the whole thing read like an Elon Musk press conference…
“To sustain poverty reduction gains, China will focus more on achieving endogenous development in areas that have been lifted out of poverty and introduce vigorous measures to support rural revitalization. Our goal is to achieve common prosperity and high-quality development including through the rural revitalization strategy with a focus in five key areas: industry development, human capital, culture, ecological environment and local governance.”
It’s interesting and kinda disconcerting reading through the policies and how no real figures are presented for what the policy should be, such as the “common prosperity” they hope to achieve be 2030 (link page 15)
China has set a new goal of achieving significant progress toward common prosperity by 2035.1 While no particular income target or poverty threshold is attached to this goal, it can help keep the policy focus on the vulnerable population over the coming decade.
It makes me wonder if setting an elusive “goal” of a policy is better to get members on board and then slap them with the real numbers after they have already signed on and can’t openly complain about (bad for corrupt sectors of government though). There’s also just not enough information as stated in the paper to actually understand what is going on,
Finally, this review of China’s poverty reduction experience leaves a number of questions open for further research…
- the interplay between poverty reduction and growth deserves further analysis to understand the extent that poverty reduction measures may, in turn, help less-developed areas grow faster
- a deeper analysis of China’s use of policy experimentation at the local level combined with high-powered performance incentives may contribute to our understanding of models of decentralization and public service delivery
- an evaluation of China’s targeted poverty alleviation experience in recent years would benefit from further analysis of individual policy interventions and their interactions to better understand not just the effectiveness but also the efficiency and sustainability of the program.
- An analysis of the costs and benefits of policy intervention would also be warranted in a broader sense, helping to systematically account (suan da zhang in the Chinese term) for factors such as the impact of infrastructure investments on poverty reduction or the merits of the hukou system and man- aged urbanization policies. In all these areas, active exchanges between researchers within and outside of China, and between academics and policy makers, should be encouraged, and the data needed for high-quality empirical work should be made more widely available. These actions will help ensure that China’s poverty reduction achievements get the attention and understanding that they deserve.
Just now seeing and trying to wrap my head around the Hukou system. I’m not here arguing good/bad communism, I just like the information and think that many forms of government can work out with protections in place (regulations, corruption detection, etc). I just wanted to point out your article mention and link didn’t really fit together with how you presented it. I did enjoy the reading and will continue today, but I take it all with a grain of salt. I don’t really 100% trust any source these days, which in this technological era should really be the default for everyone. Definitely let it sink in and contemplate the realities of others, but you only have your own reality to work within for any type of effective action.
you put a lot of work into that word salad
oh wow, ok. Thought you posted links for actual discussion and would’ve been interested in someone reading through wanting to talk about it lol. This just a copy/paste warrior kinda thing you’re doing? Weird way to try to insult back after everything you posted, thanks for letting me know not to continue the conversation!
It’s pretty clear you’re not interested in any actual discussion given that you just dismiss everything by saying you don’t trust anything. You never explain the reason for this distrust or provide any sources that contradict anything said there. I’m pretty sure that no matter how much evidence you’re provided with, you’ll just keep moving goal posts and repeating how you don’t trust the sources. It’s not very original.
Dawg, it is a direct quote from the Forbes article. Read it again I guess?
If you ever been to a commune where people share food, resources, bills. They go under the radar.
Fell for this one before, Mr. Manson.
There was a reality TV show about communes and stuff. Granted it’s reality TV but aside from the bad ones media doesn’t cover them very much. Long story short, it really didn’t do a good job of saying communism-good.
I think the best examples might be like Cuba having universal health care or something but ny experience was with a michael moore doc so it’s kinda sketch to begin.
Communes have almost nothing to do with communism. When you are living in a capitalist world and beholden to a capitalist economy, you are not suddenly experiencing communism just because you live on a collective farm. A commune is not “doing communism,” not because they are doing something wrong or anything, but because it simply doesn’t work like that. In a simple definition of communism, the workers own the means of production. The people living on a commune within capitalism still do not own the means of production, they still exist almost entirely at the whims of the broader capitalist economic structure.
Also, it’s just ridiculous to expect a tiny microcosm of any system to represent how sound that system is if it were to be scaled up. Especially when that microcosm is inside of another structure that will actively stamp it out of existence if it threatens to grow. Trying to build a commune within a capitalist country is like trying to build a town at the bottom of the ocean. Everything beyond the limits of your project is hostile to its existence simply as a matter of the surrounding natural forces. But just because it’s extremely hard to build a town at the bottom of the ocean, and when it was tried it ended in failure, doesn’t mean that towns in general are destined to fail. In an appropriate environment they can and do thrive.
Excellent post. To add, Engels does a great refutation of these utopian socialist / commune projects, in Socialism, utopian and scientific.
Communes are often cult like and authoritarian.
Large-scale, actual communism with no authoritarianism? Not that I’m aware of. It’s hard to implement true communism effectively on a large scale because most people have to care enough about others to willingly contribute for it to work.
Authoritarianism is a meaningless term that people with lack of capacity for rational thought regurgitate. Every single government holds authority by virtue of having the monopoly on legal violence. The only question is whose interest the authority is exercised in.
That’s just bullshit. Authoritarianism has a clear-cut definition that goes beyond “the government has authority on legal violence” and you know it.
This isn’t reddit, please be respectful when disagreeing. You’re not going to win any converts by alienating people.
It’s telling that you failed to provide any actual definition for the term.
I’m not gonna waste my time. Any definition I would provide you would dismiss as “western propaganda” anyway.
I suppose actually having to define things would take your valuable time away from trolling here.
What do you count as “Authoritatianism?”
Why do you think Communism requires people to care about others to function, and why would they not work otherwise?
I think you have some serious misunderstandings about what Communism entails.
USSR Angola Cuba China DPRK Ethiopia Mongolia Vietnam GDR. I cant understand how people can look at a country that dramatically improved its peoples standard of living brought democracy and freedom, and not see it as a good thing.
America Bombs North Korea and Vietnam to smithereens
Communism bad?!
Hey that’s not accurate. France bombed them too.
Those were freedom bombs, duh.
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u can listen to the propaganda or u can look at reality.
u can listen to the propaganda or u can look at reality.
No u
You could probs add Burkina Faso to that list too.
Open source software is like communism. Held in commons, free to use, contribute to, and benefit from.
Can you find a legitimate example of “communism bad?”
^ this is a bad faith engagement
“[citation needed]” is bad faith now? I guess Wikipedia should pack it in, then.
Inshallah
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Can you take the negative energy you’re spewing elsewhere? It would be nice to not have this place turn into another reddit cesspool. Thanks.
“Sir you’re being entirely too hostile towards my genocidal arguments and beliefs”
The tone policing liberal
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Lemmy.ml is a Marxist instance, you’re free to stay on Lemmy.world if you are anti-Marxist. That’s the beauty of federation.
Why would you bother replying if the only thing you have to contribute is absolutely vapid pearl clutching?
Just lol, dude.
Oh no I am defeated by the internet rando putting their full back into camera mugging
You say, from a Lemmy.world account, very much intentionally trying to create a Reddit 2
No true Scotsman
That’s not a No True Scotsman fallacy, they legitimately are recreating Reddit intentionally.
Just like Capitalism you aren’t going to find any examples of the system in the world today
When people actually lived in communes it was cool though
Just like Capitalism you aren’t going to find any examples of the system in the world today
About to have my brain turned into soup by asking this question:
Are you implying that there are no examples of capitalism in the world today?
I’m genuinely curious about this, as well.
Yeah, what country rewards jobs based on hours worked rather than assets owned?
What people refer to as “late-stage capitalism” is no different than the system capitalism was supposed to replace
Just because it is (and always was) a complete lie that capitalism would lead to prosperity for working people, that doesn’t mean that capitalists aren’t doing capitalism. Capitalism hasn’t been corrupted from some ideal system into something else, this is what capitalism is and it’s been known as such for over a century and a half.
Since the beginning but not because that’s what capitalism is, it’s because the mercantilist lords wanted a rebrand when peasants started killing them
If a country decided to switch to communism, that elite rebrand would still happen. Animal Farm paints this, China having more inequality than Japan or South Korea also paints this it’s what allows people to say true capitalism has never been tested and the elite can exploit that to increase inequality
Animal Farm is garbage and Orwell was a racist, antisemitic, homophobic, backstabbing snitch: Orwell’s list.
Animal Farm was Cold War agitprop, which the CIA airdropped on eastern Europe and made it into an animated film that you may have seen. The CIA funded the film adaptation of 1984 as well.
You’re even aware you don’t have an argument so you went after the author’s character which is irrelevant then started talking about the cia
As per the original point: you’re inability to understand that the rich are greedy doesn’t mean they aren’t
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While it accomplishes lot of basics right, like housing, food and education generally, further it goes, it starts carving into personal freedom and makes everything worse.
Can you explain what you mean by this, and why you believe it despite direct evidence to the contrary, such as in Cuba?
The country in which 86% of the population live in poverty? But at least there’s doctors and literacy so that’s great. Classic communism win.
What definition are you using for “poverty?”
That’s not a definition of poverty.
Well, I’ll give you that, I was expecting you to come up with a reason why my source was wrong, not to just ignore it and say “nah”. Thanks for making this shorter.
Obesity isn’t a problem in North Korea. They’ve met their BMI goals.
Colonialism and indigenous eviction masquerading as “socialist”.
I would argue that the Colonialism and indigenous eviction evils can be separated from the socialist successes.
If the Colonialism is what supported the system, it was not Socialist.
Colonialism certainly helped establish some settlements, but is colonialism essential for the survival of the kibbutz system? I don’t think so.
For example, if a kibbutz was initiated (legally and paid for) in Australia, then colonialism would not be an ingredient.
But you nonetheless used a Colonialist system as an example.
I disagree. The ideology of a kibbutz is not Colonialist.
How it started: The kibbutzim were founded by members of the Bilu movement who emigrated to Palestine.
How it’s going: Gaza toll could exceed 186,000, Lancet study says
Yes, some kibbutz founders were part of Zionist settlement land grabs. And there is no way I’m going to defend current Israeli actions.
But this doesn’t really relate to the kibbutz being a good example of communism.
Related meme:
Thankfully we have other ways of coming to an understanding about China. Particularly the media, especially international media.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_papers
Luckily most countries don’t believe the lies the US is trying to spread about China.
The lies the US spread about china… which are those? Just curious.
Many, like the exploding helmets thing, or the idea of Xi being an unaccountable dictator.
Should be easily proven by giving an example of Xi being held to account.
For what exactly?
Meanwhile in burgerland, Obama dropped an average of 60 bombs on north africa and the middle east every single day during his presidency. Have the US people held him to account, and have him face a war crimes tribunal for this atrocity against humanity?
For what exactly?
Anything. One example of Xi being held to account disproves the description of an unaccountable dictator.
Obama dropped bombs
“The president has, in this capacity, plenary power to launch, direct and supervise military operations, order or authorize the deployment of troops, unilaterally launch nuclear weapons, and form military policy with the Department of Defense and Homeland Security.”
Yes, for these actions the president is accountable to no-one for 4 years.
Just take a look at any mainstream western media that mentions China and it shouldn’t take too long to spot a lie, it will probably even be in the headline. Even just the fact that it’s practically a joke-meme that anything China does that is unambiguously positive will get a headline in the west that includes “But At wHaT cOsT?!?”
But for a few obvious, overt examples: Uighur “genocide.” Spy balloons. Winnie the Pooh ban. Social credit scores.
Got sources that debunk those? I’d like to learn.
And just to add, if you somehow missed it like I did (until just a minute ago), @davel@lemmy.ml provided a ton of information debunking the Uyghur “genocide” myth right here in this very thread. He just did a great favor for any well-meaning liberals who actually want to find out more about what the situation really is in Xinjiang, he basically did yall’s homework for you.
Well, the most serious lie fortunately has the most material that thoroughly proves its falsehood. The following link contains more links to many such resources: https://xinjiangahr.carrd.co/ It’s a place to start, both if you want just immediate proof that there is no genocide as well as if you want to learn more about what really has been going on in Xinjiang.
Even though they still are obligated to call it a spy balloon because The Narrative is still officially that it was, even western media have quietly admitted that despite flying across the continent, the balloon did absolutely no spying and actually appeared to be utterly incapable of doing any spying. Weird, how inefficient! And seriously, anyone who has even a passing knowledge of weather balloons or spycraft would have told you this from the beginning, as many did. https://xcancel.com/Reuters/status/1674507379306557462
No, Winnie the Pooh is not banned in China and simply looking around a bit for things that exist in China confirms this. Telling people who live in China that people in the US believe Pooh is banned will result in laughter. This is in China, does it look banned? https://www.shanghaidisneyresort.com/en/attractions/adventures-winnie-pooh/ There was a racist caricature image/meme that along with portraying Xi as Pooh also portrayed Obama as the Tigger character. (I would hope no one here would need explaining why both of those are extremely racist). That specific racist image was officially censored online, but censoring racism is a good thing, and again, Pooh the character, the franchise, or anything else like that, none of it banned. That it was is just another silly lie. Though the whole of reddit (for example) believes the lie because it aligns with the rest of the bullshit they think they know about China which is just straight up false.
China’s infamous “Social Credit Score” also isn’t real: https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/11/16/chinas-orwellian-social-credit-score-isnt-real/ There is a kind of rating system of businesses that allows people to score them based on how well they are a service to the community they’re in, but seeing as most people would recognize that as a good thing, the sinophobic propagandists won’t tell you that, but instead fabricate yet another bogus story to paint China as a boogeyman. This one is especially galling because all the scary things they made up with this one actually has a much worse version that is reality in the west. It’s such a blatant case of projection it’s jokerifying.
Too many to list.
This isn’t a helpful answer and comes across as disingenuous. You should provide even just a few.
I’m not going to come up with an argument for you, then debate against it.
The US and China are rapidly approaching a new kind of media-driven Cold War, with the unaligned nations being the battlefronts for dueling propaganda efforts. The problem that the western propagandists have is that they’ve generally gotten really bad at it. Gone are the days of Marshall Plans and international trade deals. All the NATO states seem to know how to do is ratchet up their sanctions regime.
To quote Dr Lubinda Haabazoka, Director of the University of Zambia Graduate School of Business and former President of the Economics Association of Zambia
Every time China visits we get a hospital, every time Britain visits we get a lecture.
The US and China are rapidly approaching a new kind of media-driven Cold War
I’d say we’re already there even though it is largely one-sided.
with the unaligned nations being the battlefronts for dueling propaganda efforts
How do you figure? I’m not saying you’re wrong, just rather I don’t see too much propaganda aimed at other nations, rather it’s imperial core countries aiming their propaganda at their own populations for usual consent-manufacturing reasons, and perhaps China aiming a little bit at their own population but to a far lesser extent as to be almost insignificant in comparison. China doesn’t really need to manufacture any consent domestically because it’s not the one saber-rattling for a conflict. When it comes to peripheral nations, the west mostly just says to them “do what we tell you to or else” and China mostly just says “hey, whatever, let’s just do some trading.”
The problem that the western propagandists have is that they’ve generally gotten really bad at it.
Well, in a way. You’re right that all they seem to know to do is ratchet up the sanctions, but their method of propaganda is sheer saturation. Make sure that every mainstream media outlet is on board with the anti-China propaganda and steer all major social media such that “China Bad!” appears to be a unanimous consensus, and job done. And it works extremely well. The state propaganda doesn’t need to be very sophisticated itself at this point because the consent-manufacturing machine has been built, maintained, and well-oiled for a long time already.
To quote Dr Lubinda Haabazoka
That is a great quote and really does sum up the comparison of how the west and China each approach international relations with would-be economic partners. It’s a good demonstration for why any propaganda battle between the west and China for the approval of the rest of the world would necessarily be so one-sided. One of them has to lie and endlessly make up excuses for their actions and behavior (bullying and swindling) while the other can just calmly gesture towards their actions and behavior (equal exchange and genuine support).
I’d say we’re already there even though it is largely one-sided
When you’re in the belly of the beast, it’s easy to miss what’s going on outside. I don’t think it’s one sided, by any stretch.
The state propaganda doesn’t need to be very sophisticated itself at this point because the consent-manufacturing machine has been built, maintained, and well-oiled for a long time already.
The post WW2 Peace Dividend has largely played itself out, though. Our voracious appetite for extraction is costing us open ears internationally.
Like, nobody in Saudi Arabia or Turkey or Israel or even Ukraine really takes the US propaganda seriously. They’ve got their own internal propaganda that is far more compelling, and it’s often diametrically opposed to the liberal democratic line.
One of them has to lie and endlessly make up excuses for their actions and behavior (bullying and swindling) while the other can just calmly gesture towards their actions and behavior (equal exchange and genuine support).
I think it is a mistake to think Chinese businessmen and bureaucrats are simply beyond bullying and swindling. But they don’t have the luxury of the world’s biggest military to swing around, nor do they have this ever-growing arsenal of privately developed weapons that they’re eager to exhaust and replenish.
The incentives of a communist country are fundamentally different from a capitalist state. This allows Chinese diplomats to exercise techniques that NATO states do not have the political tool bag to deploy.
When you’re in the belly of the beast, it’s easy to miss what’s going on outside. I don’t think it’s one sided, by any stretch.
It’s true. my perspective is unavoidably limited by being in an imperial core country, but is there any evidence for how China is conducting a propaganda war against the US (or at all) anywhere near the same volume or scale that the US is against China?
Like, nobody in Saudi Arabia or Turkey or Israel or even Ukraine really takes the US propaganda seriously. They’ve got their own internal propaganda that is far more compelling, and it’s often diametrically opposed to the liberal democratic line.
Yeah, I agree. But that’s what I was getting a about the western propaganda being mostly designed for their respective domestic populations, it’s not produced for the sake of the common folk of non-western countries. Is the US even attempting to make propaganda directed at the populations of Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Israel, or Ukraine? They don’t need to, since for the most part, those who rule in those countries are in alignment with US interests anyway. The liberal democratic line exists (once again) for the population within the core countries themselves. Like, the US doesn’t give a single shit that Saudi Arabia is a theocratic monarchy. Ukraine? Vassals of NATO, of course their internal propaganda is in line with the US. They would never even think of siding with China over the US and despise China anyway for not siding against Russia. Israel can’t exist without the will and favor of the US, they are a massive military outpost for the west in the middle east and are autonomous only so far as they are willing to be more openly fascist in how they go about doing what the US wants them to do anyway, the US in no way needs to produce propaganda to influence them. Turkey does at least have some differing interests than the US, but they’re still a NATO country and so far haven’t had the reason or will to rock the boat in a way that is pro-China and anti-US.
I think it is a mistake to think Chinese businessmen and bureaucrats are simply beyond bullying and swindling.
Oh believe me, that’s not a mistake I’m making. But as has been said many times, business interests (owners of private capital) in China are on a leash held by the state, in the west it’s the other way around. I don’t doubt that Chinese capitalists would swindle just as much as any other capitalists, but they aren’t the ones calling the shots, the CPC is. And the CPC has repeatedly demonstrated that they only want to do fair, equal exchange, mutually beneficial economics with other countries. They don’t need a massive propaganda machine to convince their trading partners that this is their agenda since their actions over the last couple decades are convincing enough, hence the quote you posted: “Every time China visits we get a hospital, every time Britain visits we get a lecture.”
The incentives of a communist country are fundamentally different from a capitalist state.
Absolutely.
This allows Chinese diplomats to exercise techniques that NATO states do not have the political tool bag to deploy.
I guess I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. Techniques like equal exchange?
Every time the US visits they blow up the hospital
That often depends on whether one is talking about imperial core media or peripheral media. Yet another case of alwaysthesamemap.
As you add more parties into your conspiracy it gets harder to justify the existence of said conspiracy, no?
Edit: since it’s confusing to you, look up Occam’s razor, I’m sure you’ll learn a thing or two
I’m sure there’s a coherent statement in there, waiting to get out.
But now that you’ve edited your previous comment to add mention of the Uyghur people, let’s talk about that:
The US tried to foment division in China by funding and organizing terrorist cells in Xinjiang, and once those efforts failed, it concocted and promoted a genocide narrative. Antony Blinken is still pushing this slop.
- The Xinjiang Genocide Allegations Are Unjustified
- The Uyghur Human Rights Project is a product of the National Endowment for Democracy, which is the American government’s main regime change NGO.
- Uyghur genocide allegations
- American Debunks All Major Western Propaganda on Uyghurs and Xinjiang
- US-Funded Uyghur Activists Train as Soldiers of Empire
- A Reddit AMA Claiming To Be A Uyghur Quickly Exposes A CIA Asset Slandering China
.
The blueprint of regime change operationsWe see here for example the evolution of public opinion in regards to China. In 2019, the ‘Uyghur genocide’ was broken by the media (Buzzfeed, of all outlets). In this story, we saw the machine I described up until now move in real time. Suddenly, newspapers, TV, websites were all flooded with stories about the ‘genocide’, all day, every day. People whom we’d never heard of before were brought in as experts — Adrian Zenz, to name just one; a man who does not even speak a word of Chinese.
Organizations were suddenly becoming very active and important. The World Uyghur Congress, a very serious-sounding NGO, is actually an NED Front operating out of Germany […]. From their official website, they declare themselves to be the sole legitimate representative of all Uyghurs — presumably not having asked Uyghurs in Xinjiang what they thought about that.
The WUC also has ties to the Grey Wolves, a fascist paramilitary group in Turkey, through the father of their founder, Isa Yusuf Alptekin.
Documents came out from NGOs to further legitimize the media reporting. This is how a report from the very professional-sounding China Human Rights Defenders (CHRD) came to exist. They claimed ‘up to 1.3 million’ Uyghurs were imprisoned in camps. What they didn’t say was how they got this number: they interviewed a total of 10 people from rural Xinjiang and asked them to estimate how many people might have been taken away. They then extrapolated the guesstimates they got and arrived at the 1.3 million figure.
Sanctions were enacted against China — Xinjiang cotton for example had trouble finding buyers after Western companies were pressured into boycotting it. Instead of helping fight against the purported genocide, this act actually made life more difficult for the people of Xinjiang who depend on this trade for their livelihood (as we all do depend on our skills to make a livelihood).
Any attempt China made to defend itself was met with more suspicion. They invited a UN delegation which was blocked by the US. The delegation eventually made it there, but three years later. The Arab League also visited Xinjiang and actually commended China on their policies — aimed at reducing terrorism through education and social integration, not through bombing like we tend to do in the West.
Oh AND, speaking of the periphery: Isn’t it strange how almost no predominantly-Muslim country has signed up for these supposed Uyghur human rights violations? It’s largely the imperial core countries that have. Is it because Muslims don’t value human life—even those of their fellow Muslims—or is it because it’s largely bullshit?
https://twitter.com/un_hrc/status/1578003299827171330#HRC51 | Draft resolution A/HRC/51/L.6 on holding a debate on the situation of human rights in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of #China, was REJECTED.
Afaik the only majority muslim country that support the western lies campaign about Xinjiang is Albania because they so much want to be admitted to EU, that in the process they gave up their every potential bargaining chip and never even once looked at Turkey to compare and assess their chances.
Wrong prophet.
Which international media? I’m guessing you mean media based in the US and US allies if you’re anti-china
Funny, the same thing happened when I realized that I’m Trans. It’s almost as if capitalist ran media is incentivised to lie and decive in ways that cause permanent damage.
Viewed from hexbear this thread has 27 comments lol
Must be nice not having to be exposed to 440 …other comments.
Hexbear isn’t federated with many communities though is it?
They defederated with .ca and .world because of all the racism, transphobia and general right wing culture in those instances and that’s basically all of the parent comments in here
Idk about .ca but .world defederated preemptively from .hexbear because their admins are selfaware wolves who knew hex would point out their rightwigness.
Yes and no. They are federated with many communities, but the larger anti-Marxist instances like Lemmy.world are not federated. That’s by design, Hexbear wishes to protect their marginalized members such as their trans, queer, gender-nonconforming, and EM/POC communities.
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What is a “redfash?” Is that your word for Marxists? What do you mean by “shock images,” hexbear emotes?
That’s how I’d characterize the insanely toxic comments stanning dictators and defending genocides that I saw regularly before my instance had enough
Mind explaining what you mean by “stanning dictators” or “defending genocides?” Those are heavy allegations and that needs heavy proof.
None of it is visible to me anymore, but I’d welcome you to view the admin defederation announcements, many of which included rationale and examples of that content.
shock images
“I saw an image of a pig what shat on its own balls :(”
Lol I saw the comment that was removed. The comment couldn’t have been more neutral saying people who ignore the problems in the most Communist historical societies reduce the perceived integrity of it’s proponents.
This mod is the exact antithesis of this meme. Pure censorship.
The removed comment was “as a black man”
shut up
Classic “improved democracy”
“But… but… communism had never been tried!”
“That wasn’t real communism!”
“Read the theory!”
“Communism is the solution to climate change.”— proceeds to industrialise Aral Sea leading to shrinkage; and built the Three Gorges Dam leading to the massive deforestation and loss of biodiversity in flooded lands
Communism, the movement, has been tried and is continued to be tried. Communism, the end status of a global worker Republic devoid of class antagonisms, has never been reached. These are completely acceptable and compatible statements.
This brings us to the third: read theory so you don’t think this is some “gotcha” anymore.
And what empirically happened every time communism has been tried?
That warning is the sickest burn I’ve seen on Wikipedia.
Large increases in home ownership, literacy rates, life expectancy, democratization, and quality of life as opposed to previous conditions.
- China 9 years ahead of schedule on meeting its Paris agreement climate change goals.
- China has large, state-funded. programs to combat desertification
Meanwhile the US alternates having a climate-change denier hold its highest office. Also it’s military is currently the world’s largest polluter.
Do you have any sources on this aria sea and three gorges dam business?
Wikipedia is one click away:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea
Formerly the third-largest lake in the world with an area of 68,000 km2 (26,300 sq mi), the Aral Sea began shrinking in the 1960s after the rivers that fed it were diverted by Soviet irrigation projects. By 2007, it had declined to 10% of its original size
former United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon called the shrinking of the Aral Sea “one of the planet’s worst environmental disasters”.
The Aral Sea region is heavily polluted, with consequent serious public health problems. UNESCO has added historical documents concerning the Aral Sea to its Memory of the World Register as a resource to study the environmental tragedy.
you are aware we didn’t have the same complete view of climate change 80-100 years ago like we have now, right?
Probably also unaware of the dust bowl and of what’s happening to the Great Salt Lake right now.
And yet the Soviet authorities repeated the same mistakes themselves.
Yes, they took a time machine and repeated the same mistakes in the past 🙄
It is we who are repeating now-understood, known mistakes now.
Climate change has been and always been known more than 100 years ago. https://theconversation.com/for-110-years-climate-change-has-been-in-the-news-are-we-finally-ready-to-listen-188646
and has not been prioritized.
if you want a fair assessment of how socialism deals with climate change in the 21st century, take a small look at china.
And there is this….
So instead of learning from previous mistakes, the communists repeated it themselves.
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Now I love boiling down the pitfalls of modern western society into large statements like “capitalism bad” and “communism good” as much as anyone, but having dealt with a bunch of people dismiss good change as “that’s communism” has made me rethink how I talk about topics online and in person.
Now the accelerationist are gonna be mad about this for sure, but maybe you should start small, and discuss topics at a more local level. Then again the internet is world wide and everyone wants to talk about grand scale things.
Basically, I’ve stopped telling people outside of my direct circle that leftism cool, and instead talk about socialised medicine programs, pushing for support of worker owned productions and business, getting involved with coop housing. Lot easier when you don’t have to bump up against the red scare.
Now the accelerationist are gonna be mad about this for sure
You’d be hard-pressed to find accelerationist Marxist-Leninists. That’s more often found in anarchist circles.
(But at the same time, we think that incrementalism/reformism won’t work. Rosa Luxemburg: Reform or Revolution)
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That’s okay mods, you can absolutely hide all the ample evidence of suffering under communism.
It doesn’t change the truth of the history or the words written in my great grandfather’s journals, highlighting the horrors that came with living in communist Russia.
Edit; I hope it hurts you everyday that the entire world can see right through your bullshit. Communism has as much a chance at working as you do getting paid for modding here 🤷
If you say so. Let’s see your great grandfather’s journal entries about the horrors of communism.
Communism has as much a chance at working as you do getting paid for modding here 🤷
I don’t know why you think that we think that we’d get paid, or that we’re here to make a profit on a free site with no ads. What a weird, failed analogy.
Go dig him up and you can talk to him.
I’m not then one tongue this in.My family,yet people like you want to call me a liar.
OK, Pol Pot.
Haha,mods removed my comment about my grandparents escaping communism.
Hypocrite much, mod? Gonna ban me from here now because you can’t handle the truth?
I never got to meet my great aunt because standing survive things like the Holodomor.
Sad mod has to edit history to fit their narrative.
Big sad .ml has fallen so fucking low.
This is literally on .ml, why are liberals flooding the comments.
Be happy the liberals are allowed to see this
If .worlders could see hexbear and lemmygrad, they’d have an aneurysm. But then some of them would recover and look further into it and realize the commies are right. But that is of course why they’re not allowed to see it, as you said.
Absolutely nothing of value was lost when my instance defederated from Hexbear
When a person sees no value in challenging their misconceptions, but only a threat to be shunned, it makes sense they would say that, yeah.
It’s more about immature and angsty dorks than “challenging misperceptions”
Because Lemmy.ml is federated with anti-leftist instances like Lemmy.world and Lemmy.ca. Lemmy.ml has a weird mix of very pro-Leftist posters and very anti-Leftist commenters because of this, people tend to post more on their own instances but often times scroll by all for commenting.
More self-sufficient Leftist instances like Hexbear or Lemmygrad don’t see the same circumstances.
Why are liberals on a decentralized platform anyway? Surely the free market has provided adequate platforms for everyone’s needs
I’ve noticed “leftists” on Lemmy are reeeeaaallly confused about US politics.
The Liberals on instances like Lemmy.world are too ideological to stay on Reddit, but have read no Marxist Theory and have not correctly identified the reasons why Reddit went wrong, and was always destined to go wrong. If they were Leftists, they would join an instance that doesn’t defederate with Leftists as policy.
That’s why Lemmy.world is just Reddit 2.
They left reddit to teach them a lesson for changing the recipe of their favorite capitalist treat, but have given no thought or import to the decentralized nature of the platform they left it for.
While I basically agree with this, I would argue there may be some liberals who just haven’t been exposed to actual communism/been too heavily propagandized and seeing the discourse on very left instances could gain some supporters. I guess this specific post comment section is maybe a bad example, but I would venture a guess most leftists were liberals once
I would venture a guess most leftists were liberals once
This is the case for the great majority of us socialists on Lemmy, yes.
Reddit took away their precious apps, that’s the only reason. They have no problems at all with its western-supremacist political aims.
Don’t cheer for Communism (or China) , means to be anti-leftist??
Since when?
Lemmy.world directly opposes Marxism, and Marxist instances. That’s an anti-Leftist stance. Liberalism is the status quo, which is Right-Wing.
I don’t agree. Lemmy.world opposed (very)exaggerated extremisms of all the kind so far. One of the first post i’ve read on lemmy one year ago was about the defederation of some nazi instances. Nothing is perfect but calling lemmy.world anti-Leftist is a bit of a stretch.
Lemmy.world is explicitly against Marxism, they defederated from Lemmygrad and Hexbear because of this, and sabre-rattle about defederating from even Lemmy.ml. This is anti-Marxism, plain and simple.
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Nothing is perfect but calling lemmy.world anti-Leftist is a bit of a stretch.
Not if you have rigorous definitions of terms. You can’t call yourself a leftist and be anti-communist. The desire to abolish capitalism and move to a communist society is the defining trait of the left. The only distinction between tendencies is the method they wish to pursue that goal.
The problem with debates like this is that the only people participating in it who actually know what they’re talking about are the communists.
Yes.
Since the Paris Commune.
The western-supremacists literally can’t keep their mouths shut, when given a chance to denounce any country they consider “barbarian”.
Free internet.
Sorry, are we disturbing your echo-chamber?
Accusations of an “echo chamber” or a “bubble” are always rich. As if we weren’t & aren’t still exposed to exactly the same life-long liberal indoctrination, education, and propaganda.
Top two comments can be paraphrased as " waah, they are talking to us"
😂
Hey look it’s the guy from the comic.
We are federated to liberal instances
It’s worse when you say you’re a Communist or say Communism is good, and people agree, but when you advocate for AES or advocate for standard Marxist theory the same people flip on you and call you brainwashed.
I haven’t gotten that far with people yet. I have only met people who say “no communism” but “socialism” or “Democratic socialism” or “social democracy”
There are two kinds of deviations on the left, right-deviations (aka opportunists) that are succdems and such, basically defending capitalism and always siding with libs against communists, and the left-deviations (also called ultras, leftcoms etc. often including anarchism) who refuse to acknowledge every real-world attempt at socialism as “not real communism”, “statism”, “authoritarianism”, “state capitalism” etc. because real world has a habit of clashing with their ideals.
Some short reading.If you want to met those latter people, probably just wait for the answers for my comment here, since there’s many of them here on fediverse.
I find it’s valuable to push people on the whole concept of democracy and getting them to understand that politics is about organization of the economy first and foremost. The key question is why we work in the first place and who decides on what the purpose of work is. If people believe in democracy then it necessarily has to extend to organization of labor as well. Having a democracy where a handful of oligarchs decide why and how people work is a farce.
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But have you considered iphone vuvuzela
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Reporter: [REDACTED]
Reason: Artificially upvoted😂 There is a spectre haunting Lemmy — the spectre of communist bots & trolls 👻
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