Saying Jews are awesome is not a valid statement, because just like every group some of them are awesome, some are neutral, and some are awful. It should say something like “Jews are regular people”
Replace it with two lines:
JEWS ARE PEOPLE
PALESTINIANS ARE ALSO PEOPLE^Nailed it.
Don’t forget to put back the hammer.
Lets remove the Holocaust is happening again too.
Right wings idiots have been using that shit for too long to water it down.
Genocide does not equal holocaust.
Genocide has happened and been happening somewhere new almost every 5 years and continuously all over the world so let’s not pretend it’s something new with Israel and Palestine either lol.
What about everyone else? This sign needs to be perfectly neutral. I won’t sleep until it is reduced down to one word: “People”.
PEOPLE ARE
IN THIS HOUSE, WE BELIEVE:
PEOPLE.
IN THIS HOUSE, WE BELIEVE:PEOPLE.
Fixed
ALL
LIVES MATTERPEOPLE ARE AWESOME
Some people are also people
JEWS ARE PEOPLE PALESTINIANS ARE ALSO PEOPLE
I feel like - while well-intended - the “also” here is kind of accommodating the belief of dimwits that this is somehow up for debate.
That’s not what “valid” means. This is an opinion, so you don’t get to declare it invalid. You are free to disagree, though.
if you can say “Humans are awesome”, which you can whilst everyone knows the caveats to that, you can say Jews are awesome.
Humans suck. Worst sentient species I’ve ever met.
I love humans. Or anyway, I try very hard to. But they are very near the bottom of my list as well.
Still, it was an excellent rhetorical point.
Presumably, the ones committing war crimes are not awesome.
the ones committing war crimes are not doing so “as jews” though, they are doing so because they are horrible humans who happened to be born jewish.
“Jews are like everybody else”
“Jews are non-monolithicaly awesome”
And people, in general, are awesome ergo…
I’ll let it slide honestly, underscores like “the Larry Davids of the world are lit” given the rest makes clear “any genocidal maniac is evil and neither religion nor past atrocities against their ancestors will shield them from criticism”
Saying Jews are awesome is not a valid statement
It’s a statement of opinion, which is perfectly valid, you just needed to say something because you don’t like Jews…
I don’t know about that. I can say “humans are awful” without any apprehension…
I feel we’re really ratfucking this, but how about just “Many Jews Are Awesome”
Doesn’t that cover most if not all of the various objections?
Ok, now do one for the Uyghurs.
Edit: 23 people down voted so 23 people ITT support genocide.
Did you just pop in here with “All genocides matter”?
They dont?
Edit: No answer? Just curious, what criteria are we using to pick the Genocide we are hot about?
More like, “It’s a great thing to oppose the genocide of Palestinians but you’re doing it while buying shit tons of cheap trash being manufactured by a slave class that is currently being slowly tortured and genocided by the government you get that cheap shit from.”
Hey now, we’re focusing on the Palestinian genocide here.
Not the… let me check notes… anywhere that isn’t Africa, Asia, or non-Israel Middle-East.
RIP Native Americans too.
That genocide doesn’t matter for…reasons.
It’s not that it doesn’t matter. It’s just were not going to talk about it because there is a sexier genocide in our favorite conflict torn region.
Or actually because the US is intimately tired to Israel and its military while having nearly nothing to do with the Uyghurs? Leverage and culpability are relevant factors here
You just hit my bingo
You’re wacking It hard enough
Nobody is stopping you from doing it.
I kinda just did.
Or do you need the big flashy colors and all caps text?
You seem like a big flashy colors and all caps text kinda guy.
You’re the one who needs that, since you asked for it.
No u
What should we be doing about the Uyghur genocide? What are you doing about it?
What should we do about whataboutism? It seems to be a popular alternative to engagement.
Like the what aboutism associated with distracting the electorate from every other issue on the ticket to focus solely on Gaza?
Like that what aboutism?
How is it what aboutism to confront the people most concerned about Genocide with another Genocide getting zero attention? I detect hypocrisy and this whole adversarial discussion we are having now is only proof of its existence.
Edit: How about this one? How does me commenting about another Genocide; which is seemingly forgotten by most gaza advocates; in a thread strictly about supporting oppressed people; take away from the message of the thread?
hey maybe we should stop the fucking genocide. maybe, if you’re a fucking human being with basic capacity for compassion, you could consider that SORT OF IMPORTANT, and the only other thing that could be considered more important or urgent is climate change, which there is no hope of any elected politician doing jack shit about within our (and humanity’s) lifetimes.
also tho, yeah, wish we had serious action to take to protect uighurs, kurds, armenians (FUCKING AGAIN!), etc
Never seen someone so angry about something so not controversial.
thank you for assessing my emotions and deciding that the genocide that is still ongoing and nobody has intervened in, and in some cases made BDS illegal to do, is uncontroversial.
I’m not saying you shouldn’t be angry I’m saying most people agree with you. We are all captive to things beyond our control. Let me know if you want help reconciling that.
When the US is funding the persecution of the Uyghurs, the situations will be equivalent. Oddly enough, citizens of a country tend to be more occupied with the actions of their country than situations that they are not invoked in
Got it, you support genocide.
FFS. Learn to read
Lol, frustrating, no?
… you answer these questions, first.
I feel like there’s nothing that I can do, because my (U.S.) government already has an adversarial stance on China. It has no leverage over Chinese domestic policy whatsoever. I was hoping that somebody who clearly cares deeply for the Uyghurs could provide me some guidance to at least do something, rather than watch on helplessly.
It starts with advocating for the Uyghur, drawing attention to the ever escalating Genocide. Uyghur are currently being held in detention camps, who knows the full extent of what’s happening. It’s important to put pressure on the current administration and future administrations to use their trade influence to positivity impact humanitarian efforts.
Oh of course. Never mind go ahead and murder innocent people then. What were we thinking!?
I vow to you now, never to murder anyone.
Why don’t you?
I would be told it’s politically irrelevant, probably.You know what? Fine!
Nice strawman you have build there
You care to give it a whack?
edit:
What was that about a strawman?
Edit2:
So many men made of straw
What you’re doing is called concern trolling. You’re like a republican bringing up mental health in a gun control debate. They normally don’t give a shit about mental health issues, but as a means to distract from mass shootings it’s a great prop.
20,000 children have been murdered by Israel over the past ten months, with weapons gleefully provided by the united states. Israel is a genocidal apartheid ethnostate, and they have been for the past 76 years. The ethnic cleansing they’ve been carrying out since the nakba is another holocaust, no matter how much you chirp about issues you otherwise wouldn’t bring up, you dishonest fucking serpent.
Concern trolling? Is that what we are calling it now, got it, I’ll remember.
I would upvote without the last sentence. The Holocaust was a singular event as there have been many singular events, and none repeated itself, neither as tragedy nor as farce, but some of them rhyme
It is extremely dangerous and part of both the new Nazis and Zionist playbook to designate the Holocaust as a “singular event”, implying that there was no genocide of similar scope before, or there could be after it.
Looking for example how Britain systematically stared more than 10 million people to death in India, the Holocaust isn’t even the worst genocide in terms of absolute numbers.
In particular in Germany this “singularity” trope is heavily used as propaganda, of how Germany has learned from its history, when it didn’t. New authoritarian measures? Cannot be compared because how dare you compare it to the rise of fascism, that lead to the one and only Holocaust?! Deliberate ramping up of racist rethoric accompanied by more violent hate crime? It is not the Holocaust so why are you saying it feels like the late 20s again?!
And of course subsequently: How dare you say Gaza is a concentration camp?! How can you imply any similarity between Israel and the Nazis?! You evil antisemite! Oh you are a renowned Jewish scholar that studied the Holocaust? Your parents have barely survived the concentration camps? Well you are against Israel so you are “alledgedly Jewish” or how about “self hating Jew”?
This is the actual discourse in Germany. Jews not aligned with Zionism are heavily targeted by Politicians and state bureaucrats in a heavily antisemitic manner. And this “Holocaust is singular” argumentation is part of it.
https://jewishcurrents.org/the-strange-logic-of-germanys-antisemitism-bureaucrats
the Holocaust isn’t even the worst genocide
Yes, the Holocaust was one of many genocides. Still it is the only holocaust. You can compare it to other genocides without equalizing it (a differentiation that works much less in German).
In particular in Germany this “singularity” trope is heavily used as propaganda
True, but so is the opposite. I tried to frame my first comment not in that propagandistic way. That narrative goes like: Germany is the country of thinkers and poets, we had Luther, Goethe and Einstein, than something bad happened but all my relatives were in the resistance and after 1945 there aren’t any nazis anymore anywhere now. And it can’t repeat anyway so why bother.
That’s not how I framed it. I deliberately said it’s one of many singular events and it “rhymes” with others (including present day events)
If the holocaust wasn’t singular at all, it wasn’t that bad. Shit happens. The Nazis weren’t that bad either. Other states do similar things. We don’t have to learn from our past when it repeats anyway.
There are many lines to draw here but please have the intellectual integrity not to draw one at the usage of a single word. Take the second to look how it is used.
And there are differences between the holocaust and colonialist genocides (“the enemy within”), as there are commonalities. Each is singular and thereby they are all connected.
How dare you say Gaza is a concentration camp?!
Yes, it is, as where the gulags and the US had concentration camps for Japanese people during the Second War to End War (George Takei, the actor of Sulu in Star Trek, lived in one as a kid).
Is Israel an apartheid state? To a degree, as is the US with the illegalized immigrants and former prisoners aren’t allowed to vote (and who’s more likely to be imprisoned?) Even if the law applies to everyone the same way, to quote Anatole France: “In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets, and steal loaves of bread.” (I’ve got this quote from Worshiping Power by Peter Gelderloos)
I’m an anarchist. In my view, all states are bad. I’m not singling out Israel even though it is a good (as in evil) example. There is a lot to criticize and for much of it, you find similar things in other states also worth criticizing. While all states are and have been bad and did bad stuff, only one made the holocaust happen. Still, others did similar things. Denying this can be used for both sides.
And I still don’t know what the meme is referring to. To October 9th or the genocide in Gaza? Or to Sudan? Why is no one talking about Sudan? (Me included, I know something is going there but don’t ask me what)
If you’re a German, you make me sick to be another left-wing German.
Yes, it is, as where the gulags and the US had concentration camps for Japanese people during the Second War to End War (George Takei, the actor of Sulu in Star Trek, lived in one as a kid
Gaza is a lot closer to the Nazi KZs than the Japanese internment camps ever even got close to, the only difference is that the space in Gaza is bigger, and they managed to smuggle stuff in. Israel kept them on a strict water ration (having destroyed the entire native infrastructure decades ago) only “turning on the taps” a few days out of the week, keeping the population on hunger rations, in an open effort to starve the population out, a plan proudly proclaimed as being a moral good by a member of the Israeli government.
Is Israel an apartheid state? To a degree, as is the US
No, it isn’t, and you obviously don’t know jack shit by the rest of that paragraph. Israel is a full on apartheid state, Arab-Israelis are literally not even citizens, many laws specifically single out and directly target said minorities, they are not allowed to use the vast majority of large road networks, they are not allowed to own land in “Jewish areas”, they aren’t allowed into “Jewish areas” unless they have specific reason to be there. the police nationwide has instituted a de-facto curfew for all Arabs to be back in their ghettos, Israeli EMTs will literally strap patients onto the hood of their ambulances, etc…
people aren’t making the comparisons between the behavior of Germans during the Nazi rule, and modern day far-right theocratic ethno-fascist Israel. We see the same dehumanization, the same hate, the same disregard and disgust of the “other”, we see the same actions, the same propaganda (multiple members of the Israeli government have literally used the 14 words), the same Lebensraum, and You, and people like you are so fucking up your own ass about how big strong and bad Germany was (another point many current neo-Nazis will agree on, because if only Germany is capable of this type of evil, it is because they must somehow b a superior “race”), that you will actively repeat Nazi shit, as long as the framing is right. you are proof that the German education system has failed you in regard to learning about the horrors of the Nazi regime, because you are more focused on the picture of the mustache man than what they did.
things aren’t bad because the Nazis did them, the Nazis were bad because of what they did, and if Israel is committing the same atrocities, they are deservedly compared to nazis.
And I still don’t know what the meme is referring to. To October 9th or the genocide in Gaza? Or to Sudan? Why is no one talking about Sudan? (Me included, I know something is going there but don’t ask me what)
tho, you do get one thing correct, you have no fucking clue about anything that goes on in that region.
P.S. please don’t call yourself an anarchist, you’re just another “Anti-D”
I love how you totally ignore what I said and selectively read my comment the way it fits your prejudices. What makes me Anti-D? That I want other states to fall, too? I mean there are anti-D anarchists who want Israel to fall last. I explicitly said that Israel is an especially bad state implying that I want it to fall sooner than later. But what do I know.
To quote Gelderloos again, in case you accept him as an anarchist: “the category of citizen, from the beginning, was intended to be exclusionary, not inclusionary.” Talking about the French revolution, where the bourgeoisie introduced the social contract theory to exclude the lower social strata. Does that make them an apartheid state? No. Are all states apartheid states? No. Is South Africa right to accuse Israel of being one? Yes. Did I generalize to provoke people into realizing that all states are bad? Maybe.
if Israel is committing the same atrocities, they are deservedly compared to nazis.
Where did I say that you can’t compare them?
Did you know that the Lebensraum ideology was inspired by Manifest Destiny, the colonial expansion of the US? But sure, Nazi Germany and Israel are the only states that committed any kind of genocide in history. There are people arguing the US didn’t commit genocide against the indigenous population. I say it’s an ongoing genocide, it never stopped.
you will actively repeat Nazi shit, as long as the framing is right
I was repeating a word they use and pointed out that I used it differently and that disagreeing with this word is also used by Nazis so maybe it matters how we use words.
Way to go shitting all over someone trying to give a nuanced take. You completely lost it here, and for what? For your right (or pleasure) to equate Israelis to Nazis? Well done.
nuanced take? please, there wasn’t a scrap of nuance in that entire post of theirs, it was literally the same holocaust denying shit you see on every conservative news outlet.
In what way do see him denying the holocaust? He does confirm it was a singular event
it wasn’t even considered a singular event until the 70s, where everyone started to forget the other victims, you had the Jewish holocaust, the Romani holocaust, the Slavic holocaust etc… but ironically since most of the world still saw is as fine to be racist to these people, we gladly forgot about these groups. Hence, we are left with the holocaust of the only people to have a larger representative community in the allied powers as being the victims of the holocaust in everyone’s collective minds.
And to be fair, it does sort of piss me off when people go around spreading the myth of the singular holocaust, something that is in its very essence holocaust denial, because you deny many of the differing victims of Nazi brutality and murder, to deny a modern day holocaust.
Then again, try explaining to people that the genocide the Germans perpetrated didn’t start with millions dead, or that it mostly took place outside the camps (misconceptions Nazis also still use to this day, if you ever heard the “cookies” or “pizza” analogy from the far right).
Not fond of meaningless arguments about definitions designed to derail a discussion.
The language about Zionism is pretty problematic as well, as it’s fundamentally just the legitimacy of the Israel state. That ship has sailed, and attempting to dismantle Israel is not going to create peace. Getting serious about forcing Israel to abide by international laws is the path forward. Implying the state is illegitimate and borrowing extremist nomenclature from neonazis is not.
Zionism is used for a Jewish ethno state. A multi cultural state wouldn’t be Zionism
That is one usage of the term. The more common and liberal (and historic) terminology is precisely to make a multicultural state which is accommodating and or safe for Jewish people, which is closer to what Israel has been pre Netanyahu.
For what it’s worth, I tend to agree that Israel is something like the original sin of the conceptual post war nation state. But again, that cat is not going back into that bag. My point is not that Israel is without sins, it is that anti-Zionism comes with a significant amount of linguistic baggage which more precise langue avoids. It is far more productive to articulate the specific behaviors of modern Israel which one finds unacceptable, rather than to dive into this specific linguistic battle.
If we’re talking death cults can we include Islam and Christianity?
Absolutely, some of them are the staunchest Zionists
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And capitalism?
As fun as that is to say, capitalism has no reward for its fervent adherents after death. Nothing that would make its followers feel like they were doing people a favor by killing them. No capitalist utopia waiting on the other side.
O ye of little profit
Give, and the Void will provide!
Yeah, but ‘line go up’ is just as compelling to those with lines already high up.
Capitalism is a death cult because it puts a monetary value to living beings, be it people or animals. Wanna kill some people for profit? Just cut down on safety measures and if caught pay the legal fees afterwards…
China has an Atheist only government policy. would you say they are the best government on earth?
That’s like saying potatoes don’t have religion do you want to be a potato.
What a stupid take. Because the official state religion is totally the only possible thing that makes a government good or bad
Just because China enforces thought crime doesn’t make it bad! 1984 was just some dumb book. Banning the number “1984” from Chinese social media just proves it. /s
My argument isn’t that the Chinese government is good, rather that their adoption of atheism isn’t the cause of them being evil.
China has some serious skeletons, for sure, but if China is evil, is the US also evil? We export far more weapons and we have bombed far more civilians. We are actively funding the genocide of Palestine as we speak.
Isn’t it weird how obsessed western media is with the ‘tank man’ photo when Greece used their tanks to crush greek college students to death and yet we aren’t even taught it?
The global oligarchy is evil. The US is full of schmucks allowing themselves to be used by the oligarchy to commit atrocities… Same as China, same as Russia, etc. I suppose it depends where you draw the line for “evil”… Are you evil for carrying out evil orders or just the person giving the orders is evil? What about the person who feeds the person carrying out the orders, are they evil too? How about the bus driver who drives the cook to the place where s/he feeds the person carrying out the orders?
If you take it far enough, one could say that as long as evil is allowed to occur anywhere on earth, we are all evil through complicity
The most disturbing inbred cousins of monotheism .
Yeah this nicely summarises the level of understanding of American internet teenagers about the Middle East.
I would hope at least this much, but ideally more. It probably depends on the American teenager though.
I’m saying it’s dumb and wrong
I’m saying the mischaracterization of the meme as juvenile is incorrect as the meme contains the minimum information everyone should know.
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In what way is the holocaust happening again? That’s a pretty strong claim.
Edit: This came across wrong. I did not mean to downplay the mass murdering that is happening in Gaza and other places in the world right now.
About 40k Palestinians have been killed by Israel so far. These people are stateless and not allowed to leave, have limited access to food and water, and have no hope of ever fighting back or escaping. That includes the innocent children who represent a huge fraction of the victims. It certainly draws parallels to the Holocaust, if nothing else, though the scale and motivations are different.
Good points.
That we know about. That made it to a place the bodies could be counted. Nobody has peeked into the rubble in most places yet.
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Hello.
I’m a german citizen and i feel obliged to educate you on this topic. I still see the remnants and aftermath of the second world war every single day, living in this history rich country.
The holocaust was ordered in the last few years of the second world war, since it was good knowledge that germany would be loosing amongst german officers. That means approximately 6 mio. People have been killed in around 3.5 years (Yes of course people also died earlier on, but let’s keep it easy). Or equal to: 40.000 people Per Day. So imagine your stadium, gone, every 24 hours. For around 3.5 years.
But thats not it. Those people got tortured, they got used for horrific “scientific” experiments, there were surgery’s held on those people without any kind of painkiller (excuse me English is not my first language).
They were treated less than animals. They had to work in the factories for Hitlers war effort and did horrific jobs, often times loosing limbs. They were extremely malnutritioned, dehydrated, and kept awake forcefully by beeing dumped full of drugs like cocaine and crack. Many times, actually most of the times, they died from exhaustion. If anything was out of the ordinary or they seemed unfit for work, they got used for experiments and if they survived that, killed.
They sometimes stayed for years in those camps.
But the crazy thing about this is. It depends on how you count. In the second world war there were around 12-18mio. Deaths. So depending on who you ask, and what counts for you as a holocaust, for example being forcefully drafted into a military as say a 14 year old and told to run into machine gun fire, you could be closer to around 2 stadiums, per day.
Yes. A stadium full is mass murder, but its not a holocaust. And statements like these will make you hard to believe for many people. I know what you are trying to say. Its a lot a a lot a lot a lot of people. Yes. But if you compare it to the holocaust, thats something whole different.
This.
Additionally, the nazis built infrastructure (trains, KZs, …) just to kill Jews. They optimized it to maximize the amount of Jews to bring into KZs, they built the infamous gas showers and gas chambers to be able to kill more people more efficiently.
They industrialized genocide.
While there were many cruel mass murders, this industrialization thing makes it unique so far.
Greetings from a fellow German.
I had a relationship with a German some years ago. I was told that there was some kind of collective punishment (my words) still going on because of WW2. That Germany still felt responsible, and pushed that responsibility onto the next generation, a generation with no relation to WW2 other than being born in Germany.
Why can’t the older generation let the next generation move on without inheriting their burden?
This is an agenda pushed by the right. They don’t understand the difference between guilt / responsibility for what happened and responsibility to not let it happen again.
We are not guilty nor responsible for what happened during WW2, but we are responsible to not let it ever happen again.
It is not “pushed onto us”. Its important to remember what happend in order to tell the signs and stop it from happening ever again. The narrative of “We are not responsible for it anymore and shouldn’t feel any guilt” is a narrative mostly used by german right-wing conservatists trying to erase this part of our history out of the books and education.
Because everything doable has to be done to prevent something like this from happening ever again. Feeling some guilt is a small price to pay. Sincerely, a German
My ancestor who died on the nazi operating table upon receiving unimaginable treatment would be very angry we are letting the genocide happen and using this kind of arguments to delay our response
True, and I never said otherwise.
If you think world leaders are taking policy notes from the bottom of a comment chain on Lemmy, you’re gonna have a bad time.
They don’t, but if the common people could at least stop repeating the IDF mouth piece, it would do wonders.
While I do agree with you on a general level, I think this is largely a discussion about how different cultures and languages use the word holocaust.
In Germany, the word Holocaust has a connotation that particularly emphasizes the exceptional nature of the event in comparison to everything that has happened before and since.
This connotation is not necessarily present in other societies, where the meaning is closer to the Greek root ‘holókaustos’ - ‘completely burnt, destroyed’ and this results in the difference between the Holocaust and a holocaust in English.
It is therefore understandable that the term holocaust is used in other languages for what is happening.
Is it helpful though? Here’s my - slightly different - take of why using the word is not necessarily wrong… but unhelpful.
I myself prefer the term “genocide” in the Israeli-Palestinian context, especially because the term holocaust in close proximity to Judaism is extremely loaded and in this context has connotations that are less about Israel’s terrible crimes and more about the somewhat conspiratorial accusation of ‘victims becoming perpetrators’ against Jews as a whole, which resonates with antisemitism and understandably gives rise to accusations of antisemitism to the point of completely losing focus of the important part of the discussion:
The state of Israel is committing extended, organized and deliberate genocide against Palestinians, out of hatred of and revenge against Hamas. This hatred and revenge against Hamas is justified. Targeting innocent Palestinians is not.
One can call this a holocaust, but this choice of word is more likely to derail the discussion and serve an entirely different agenda than the one that tries to achieve some end of the murders in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.
The term was coined during WW2, and it means a mass slaughter of people.
We refer to the WW2 event as the Holocaust, the name of the historical event that invented the word.
There is a difference between the two, and trying to argue that this is not technically comparable to what happened in WW2 because not enough people died yet is a terrible thing to do.
If your ancestors that witnessed what happened during the war were witnessing what is happening today, do you think they would scoff at Palestinians because they don’t have 6 millions deaths yet or would they make the parallel between what happened then and now.
I appreciate your history course, but the kind of discourse you and many other have dilutes the word because you couldn’t be bothered to open a dictionary and look up the meaning of a word. You go around instead , lecturing people saying “akschually…” and spouting the same talking points from the IDF propaganda.
If you want a post it note for next time.
The Holocaust (event) : what happened during WW2
a holocaust (name): the mass murder of people
The term itself comes out of the Greek language, around 400 BC. It does not mean mass slaughter or genocide, it means the burning of animals.
In no terms it means anything near mass slaughter. The term though got a different meaning after the second world war, since we called the events holocaust. So, “” akschually"" referring to what happens in Palestine as a holocaust is factually wrong, since the de facto meaning of the word is a religious sacrifice of animals. In modern times the word is only used to refer to the german actions against Jewish people from 1936 to 1945.
Indicating what happens in Palestine is a holocaust is therefore only a comparison between germany 1936 and 1945 to Palestine.
Yes, it may be a genocide, it may be a mass murder/slaughter, BUT it does not even come close to what happened in germany. Therefore it downplays of the events in germany, which is not a good thing.
So, if you want a post it note
A Holocaust is a mass slaughter/genocide
But a mass slaughter/genocide is not a Holocaust.
By the way, my grandparents are still alive and first hand witnesses to what happened here, when the war ended they were 14 and 16 years old. And I have not heard them referring to what happens in Palestine as a Holocaust, neither do I expect them reacting nicely when someone would.
And tbh, wtf are we even fighting about.
Holocaust has been used and was understood at least since 1189 to describe the burning of Jews. See my comment
Edit: this is btw. not to detract from your point. The word holocaust as the deliberate burning of people was mostly used for burning jews, but also witch-burnings and similar events. Even the great fire of London was called a holocaust.
In pre-WWII parlance, calling what happens in Gaza a holocaust would absolutely be appropriate. Post WWII its usage is just… not helpful and has bad connotations that detract from what is important in the discussion.
The term is greek in origin and referred to burn offering “holókaustos” - “completely/wholely burned”, it was used in this way throughout the middle ages for fire-progroms against Jews (*) and later (1515) to decry the witch-burnings as “the new fire sacrifices” (“nova holocausta”).
* “Eodem coronationis die, circa illam sollemnitatis horam qua Filius immolabatur Patri, incceptum est in civitate Londoniae immolare Judaeos patri suo diabolo ; tantaque fuit hujus Celebris mora mysterii, ut vix altera die compleri potuerit holocaustum” - “On the same day of the coronation, about that solemn hour when the Son was sacrificed to the Father, it was begun in the city of London to sacrifice the Jews to their father the devil; and so great was the delay of this famous mystery, that the next day the holocaust could scarcely have been completed” source
Edit: This is btw. describing the events of the coronation of Richard the Lionheart 1189 CE.
The definition is industrialized mass murder… it’s not that easy.
No the definition is a mass murder.
There is a distincting between the Holocaust, the event that happened during WW2, and a holocaust, the definition for a mass murder.
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And what do you think will happen if we let them? It would be much worse than the actual Holocaust. Past torture victims make the worst torturers
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You obviously don’t understand the difference between “a holocaust” and “the Holocaust”. The image we’re discussing here says “the Holocaust”. No need to use insults to compensate for you own ignorance. Maybe go read some Wikipedia.
The holocaust was an event in WWII. 1942-1945.
CHECK YOUR CALENDAR ☝️
Hey doodoo, check the definition in the Merriam Webster dictionary, definition 3B :
a mass slaughter of people
If that is not a massive slaughter, then I am president of planet Earth.
“The”
Here, smartass, you missed this☝️ important little bit when you searched Merriam Webster. I saved a snippet for you ;)
3 a usually the Holocaust : the mass slaughter of European civilians and especially Jews by the Nazis during World War II
Did you read down to the third entry, where it says “usually”?
Get rekt. Language is based on common practice.
Oh of course! There aren’t 6 million Palestinians in Gaza so we can fucking murder them all and it’ll be totally fine! Still not 6 mil, amirite?
You sound mad, but ‘the holocaust’ was a specific event in wwII. 1942-1945.
All holocausts are genocides, not all genocides are holocausts.
Hope this helps you 🫶
What’s the difference? (Serious)
edit: nm I looked it up… The term genocide was created in 1944 to define the systematic nature of the eradication of the Jews.
hol·o·caust noun 1. destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, especially caused by fire or nuclear war. “a nuclear holocaust”
I would say it’s fair game to call what Israel is doing to the Palestinians another Holocaust. Not all holocausts are genocides though… For instance the citizens of Hiroshima died in a nuclear holocaust, but it wasn’t a genocide. THE Holocaust was just a term given arbitrarily to what happened to the Jews, and there’s no reason the term can’t be used again. If Israel is systematically eradication the Palestinian people then we can call it a genocide. If they are doing so with “destruction and slaughter on a mass scale” we can also call it a holocaust.
What’s the difference?
The dates. (Seriously)
It’s 2024. The Holocaust (a specific genocide) ended 79 years ago.
So again, all holocausts are genocides, but not all genocides are holocausts.
I don’t make words or their meanings.
I hope this helps 🫶
Well yeah… Obviously THE Holocaust isn’t happening again… But A holocaust is… And sadly it’s being perpetrated by the victims of THE Holocaust
There’s still those concentration camps in China that we’ve All just accepted as a normal part of life now
True
Does China have the US government by the nuts? Does China get F-35s and 2000lb bombs funded by my tax dollars for their genocide? Is China a shining example of western democracy and values in their part of the world? Is it possible to be upset about more than one genocide at a time?
Is it possible to be upset about more than one genocide at a time?
Yes, now be upset and in arms about the Genocide in China. Go ahead. We are waiting.
Is the western world supporting China? I was unaware?.
We use their inhumane labor to cut cost here at home. Oops, it’s OK, you must’ve forgot.
Simply stop buying Chinese products!
Something something Amazon largest retailer
Rather different from directly funding their war machine. And capitalism has never been a mechanism for expressing the moral desires of voters, has it?
What is your actual argument, because it sounds like:
“Nothing can be done so we shouldnt draw attention to it or even talk about it in Genocide related discussions.”
Which, if I follow the leftist playbook, you are an advocate for genocide.
No. My argument is is twofold:
- that bringing up Uyghurs when discussing Gaza is whataboutism.
- it’s also not a reasonable comparison given that US (and western, generally) leverage and culpability are completely different.
Except you didn’t adress any of my arguments.
Dont bother arguing with these people. They get their history from tiktok and I’m not even sure they can read.
Lol and that’s why it’s bullshit, because nothing is “super simple”, you bunch of terminally online twats. You wouldn’t know nuance if it reached out of your Instagram post and slapped you in the face. Go ahead, tell me to eat glass like last time.
eat glass pweeease owo
everything is complicated, it’s true. drinking water is super complicated. if you try to just drink straight h20 you will strip your body of electrolytes and shit will become very unpleasant. don’t get me started on colors. we don’t even know what colors ARE.
but there are subjects where the simple understanding is EXTREMELY functional, and will rarely lead you TOO far astray. like ‘drink water, preferably clean water’. if you dont do this you die.
similarly: genocide bad. rape bad. rapists bad. genocideers bad. if you don’t do this, LOTS of people die, and its partially on you.
yes, there is a more complex nuanced understanding (which IMO makes the palestinians look better and the zionists look orders of magnitude worse than the nation of shiro ishi clones they appear to be from the surface), but the simple one effectively functions for nearly any intent or purpose, and if you’re not doing therapy for a palestinian person, or trying to decide what treatment would be appropriate for a zionist if it was capable of just stopping/surrendering (which it is not, there’s only one way to stop this after letting it get this far, and we should do it before more innocents die), you really don’t need more than the simplest “genocide bad, rape bad, murdering children bad” that a literal child could understand.
It’s all nuance until you start criticizing a politician’s stance on the matter. Then it’s we don’t have room for nuance because:
- You will let the fascists win
- We are too constrained to do anything
- There are two choices in the United States 2024 election. No third party stands a ghost of a chance of winning. No, not even if the 30,000 people you can reach on Lemmy all vote for Timothy Greenparty.
- A Trump victory in 2024 would not only be just as bad if not worse for the citizens of Gaza than Harris would, but also pose an existential threat to a large number of vulnerable Americans (trans people, immigrants, women seeking abortions).
- Given the margins of victory in 2016 and 2020, Kamala might not win if leftists don’t vote for her.
- Snoozing fascism for four years is better than inviting it through the door now, and buys us time to build our defenses for when it comes back.
I’d like to focus my counterargument. Which of these statements do you disagree with?
I disagree that critiquing Kamala automatically makes me a 3rd party voter. I’m vote blue no matter who, but I can see that explaining the trolley problem isn’t working at the moment.
Yeah, I would absolutely expect someone with a sign of this style to call every single instance of genocide “The Holocaust”. That’s precisely the level of historical literacy I’m used to seeing from middle-class weirdos who buy these things.
I feel like you’re getting a bit semantic. A holocaust vs THE holocaust are pretty close and the meaning gets across.
I’m used to seeing from middle-class weirdos who buy these things.
so what kind of weirdo are you having to somehow felt the need to put the world “middle-class” in here?
I’d hang that on my house!
The holocaust is happening again at the hands of the first victims?
Tale as old as time.
queer people?
because the first victims of the holocaust were queer people. stop writing us out of your fucking history for the sake of zionist propaganda.
It’s called “dibs”
“The holocaust” is unfortunate phrasing. “The” holocaust was not the first or only since.
deleted by creator
Let’s add: “Jihadism is dangerous”
“Hamas is a terrorist organisation”
“Innocent should not die no matter if they were born in Tel Aviv or in Gaza”
“7 of October of 2023 was a terrorist attack”
“Situation in a conflict zone where both sides has been killing each other for decades is not simple and has no simple solution”
“Blindly supporting muyahidins, I mean, intifada, has not a good historic record”
“A Hamas led Palestine would be very similar to any other Islamic dictatorship, which is not good for Palestinians, specially women and LGBT”
Under any circumstances innocents should die, and anyone (ANYONE) killing civilians is a piece of shit. But the fact that Israel government is a Piece of Shit does not mean that Hamas is not also a Piece of Shit. Some people seems to forget that when it comes to codemn the cruelties inflicted in that region.
“Situation in a conflict zone where both sides has been killing each other for decades is not simple and has no simple solution”
It is not a “conflict zone” and it is not “complicated”. It is classical settler colonialism with the inevitable goal of ethnically cleansing and genociding the native population. By this logic the Nazi “Lebensraum” ideology of invading Poland, systematically murdering not only Jews and other minorities, but death-Squadding entire villages to then settler their own people on the land would somehow be “complicated”.
I suppose we live in different realities where 7 of October never happened or where missiles are not raining every day over Israel trying to indiscriminately killing people
If we live in different realities there’s nothing to argue.
In my reality there has not been found any extermination camps. And the lots of civilians killed are killed like civilians are killed in most wars. Shitty but not comparable to ww2 Germany.
There’s a conflict, there is a war between two tyrant and radical organizations. Israel Army (Supported by USA) and Palestine Army(Supported by Islamic countries and terrorist organizations), and both are being pretty shitty and trying to exterminate the other one.
And the lots of civilians killed are killed like civilians are killed in most wars. Shitty but not comparable to ww2 Germany.
IDF is literally making tiktoks braggin about killing unarmed random people. Doctors in Gaza report children executed with single shots to the head, indicating IDF snipers deliberately hunting children. We’ve seen people burned alive, people beheaded, unarmed people hunted down by drones, clearly marked aid convoys blown up, journalists assasinated with precision strikes… And Gaza looks very similar to Stalingrad in being a field of rubble.
The scale is not the same and Israel is not running extermination camps (yet). But on the military side it has a lot of similarities to Eastern Front Wehrmacht.
Have you ever follow a war?
That happens in Gaza, happens in Yemen, happens in western sahara, happens in Ukraine, happens in Irak and syria, happens in every place there is a war…
It’s not different to any other war. As bad as all the others.
The Holocaust didn’t cause the impression it had because those things. Not because they killed people, but because of the scale and the industrial method of killing those people. Without those two factors killing, torturing, destroying people, and even ethic cleansing is just a Wednesday in any war.
good thing that Hamas only exists because of Israeli support, not just via suitcases of money, but also due to a thorough expunging of moderate agnostic opposition! and hamstringing the fatwa forces during the Hamas-Fatwa civil war where Hamas took over Gaza (Hamas won some local elections, but at the time it was still part of the Palestinian state)
That’s pretty clear. Same happened with Al Qaeda and the USA.
So it amazes me when people follow hamas propaganda so easily.
Hamas is the resistance AGAINST a terrorist organization, sweetie.
Jihad is not dangerous when foreign countries are occupying your land and killing your people.
Hell, Jihad is not dangerous period. It’s the context in which the Jihad is performed that has the potential to be dangerous.
WoW! Just WoW!
XXI century and people defending Jihadism. Which is literally killing the infidel because your imaginary friend Allah told you so.
I suppose killing innocent and children, and imposing a medieval oppression on society is ok in your moral book if it is for the glory of Allah.
I suppose that you support then the murder of my family members who had died in the Jidhadist bombings in Madrid. The murder of a innocent teacher surely did a lot for resisting the evil west attacking their peaceful countries which surely don’t behead homosexuals.
It looks like you have a lack of understanding of what Jihad even is, as well as the application of Jihad in war.
For example, take this:
killing innocent and children killing the infidel
Both of these comments wildly contradict Islamic doctrine as accepted by the majority of Muslims - lose the bias for a second and do a bit of research; you’ll see what I mean.
Additionally,
imaginary friend Allah
It’s quite rude to start throwing insults at basically everyone who believes in God based on your own misconceptions, or even otherwise. A level-headed discussion where insults don’t start randomly getting thrown around would do far better for everyone here.
Religion is not real. To myself belief in any God is an insult to human intelligence.
I would never support any religion. As religion is the dead of freedom and a wildcard to torture and oppression.
And religions that support the Holy War are just plain evil.
You tell my what justification there is to call Jihad over my country, as it was called by a Caliphate and we suffered several terrorist attacks over it. My people have been living here since before Mohammed invented his religious scam. What possibly justification does anyone has to kill innocent people to conquer my land for the glory of Allah? People DIED over that, so don’t tell my I’m not understanding things, because I clearly understand that people who were alive are now dead because they called the Jihad on us .
You can say whatever you want but your lies won’t bring the dead from their graves.
Reading your comment, I understand that I cannot clear up the various misconceptions (that I perceive) you have, which seem to be the result of complicated external factors and have deep emotional roots.
Sorry for wasting your time.
Allah knows best.
Please. How do you even talk about my “complicated external factors with emotional roots” when you just believe what you believe because you were indoctrinated by a religion, probably since they day you were born.
My morals come from the rational thinking and does not include justifying murder. Can you say the same?
can you say the same
Yes, I can. But I suppose you won’t agree anyways? Either way, it’s all good.
Hell, Jihad is not dangerous period.
My word! I simply had no idea that 9/11 and all the car bombings performed by ISIS in the late 2000s were not dangerous! You have no idea how much better that makes me feel.
It’s surprising to see how many people don’t know what Jihad even is.
9/11
car bombings
ISIS in the late 2000s
You’ll be surprised to learn that none of these things fall under Jihad. I kindly request you do a little bit of research.
You won’t be happy with your opinion here. Lemmy is a pretty pro-terrorist place and gleefully ignore what Hamas, Mullah, Taliban (just look at Afghanistan) and all the other did, do and stand for. But thanks for your effort.
I’m just even surprised by the term “Free” Palestine.
Who would be Free in that supposed country?
Women would be free? No, they will be subjected to their husbands will.
Children would be free? No, they would be indoctrinated in Islam their whole life.
LBGT people would be free? No, they will be executed.
Non muslisms would be free? No, thay will be second class citizens.
Regular men would be free? No, they will have to follow the Coran or else.
What it is proposed by Hamas is not a Free Palestine, not by any definition of Free that I know.
I think you need to be more explicit with your first statements. Any line fewer than 5 words is too vague. It should be long and read like it was scrawled over an entire vehicle.
Palestine will be free
One can hope
So many people seem legitimately confused by what zionism is. At its core it is simply the legitimacy of the Israeli state. Only the most radical versions contain the violent expansionist ideals. But there’s a reason the only people ranting about it in such an unqualified way this time last year were white supremacists. Because without qualification, the implication is dismantlement of the Israeli state, which would do absolutely nothing to stop the cycle of violence. It is difficult to imagine that this is a good faith argument from anyone who is seriously engaged with fundamental geopolitics.
Unfortunately I fear that this is a perfect example of linguistic subterfuge, where serious bad actors have injected this language into otherwise well meaning causes, and I would implore those who seriously seek justice for Palestine to avoid this particular vocabulary.
At its core it is simply the legitimacy of the Israeli state.
You make it far too complicated. The legitimacy of the state of Israel is exactly what’s being debated. Many would argue the Zionists had no right to move to Palestine and even less right to steal Palestinian land to create their state. To this day Israeli settlers are still stealing more and more Palestinian land, and the Israeli government seems to be rather supportive of their activities.
Only the most radical versions contain the violent expansionist ideals.
Zionism led to the creation of the state of Israel and it was violent right from the start.
Unfortunately I fear that this is a perfect example of linguistic subterfuge
It really is not. You don’t have to agree with any of it, but the legitimacy of the state of Israel is not widely accepted in the region, they are seen as a sort of colonial power that have no right to be there and should be dismantled.
So paint your picture for me how you believe Israel is dismantled peacefully.
I don’t see that happening and I wouldn’t be in favor of it. Personally I think a 2-state-solution is the only feasible solution.
Everyone seems to like to argue that people who dislike Israel object simply to Israel’s right to exist. What we object to is the fact that they are filming themselves killing women and children.
If a state needs to be allowed to commit genocide in order to exist, it should not be allowed to exist. If it does not need to commit genocide to continue to exist, then why does it do so?
I’m not sure which part of my comment you believe suggests Israel is acting appropriately in Gaza. I am directly addressing this recent trend of merging the real and valid criticism of Israel, with some unfortunately loaded language which supporters of Israeli violence exploit to minimize said criticism.
It’s absolutely insane that merely saying “hey, your criticism is valid enough that you don’t need to merge your language with neo nazis” is even the slightest bit controversial.
But there’s a reason the only people ranting about it in such an unqualified way this time last year were white supremacists.
You think that leftists only started talking about Zionism a year ago?
But there’s a reason the only people ranting about it in such an unqualified way this time last year were white supremacists
The white supremacists were saying “Gaza will be a parking lot.” How did most of Lemmy become “white supremacists” to you?
the holocaust isn’t happening again though?
Doesn’t holocaust literally mean “death by all means necessary” I don’t think i would consider this “death by all means necessary”
although i think etymologically holocaust just has to do with “burning by fire” but i recall the germans using a more extreme definition of the holocaust more broadly.
also how is zionism is a death cult? Cringe sure, but death cult? Yeah idk about that one chief.
holocaust
holocaust
noun ho·lo·caust ˈhō-lə-ˌkȯst ˈhä-, also -ˌkäst, or ˈhȯ-lə-kȯst
Synonyms of holocaust
1
: a sacrifice (see sacrifice entry 1 sense 2) consumed by fire
2
: a thorough destruction involving extensive loss of life especially through fire a nuclear holocaust
3 a usually the Holocaust : the mass slaughter of European civilians and especially Jews by the Nazis during World War II Several members of her family died in the Holocaust. a Holocaust survivor b : a mass slaughter of people especially : genocide “a holocaust in Rwanda”
It’s a holocaust.
oh its you again
