About 40k Palestinians have been killed by Israel so far. These people are stateless and not allowed to leave, have limited access to food and water, and have no hope of ever fighting back or escaping. That includes the innocent children who represent a huge fraction of the victims. It certainly draws parallels to the Holocaust, if nothing else, though the scale and motivations are different.
I’m a german citizen and i feel obliged to educate you on this topic. I still see the remnants and aftermath of the second world war every single day, living in this history rich country.
The holocaust was ordered in the last few years of the second world war, since it was good knowledge that germany would be loosing amongst german officers. That means approximately 6 mio. People have been killed in around 3.5 years (Yes of course people also died earlier on, but let’s keep it easy). Or equal to: 40.000 people Per Day. So imagine your stadium, gone, every 24 hours. For around 3.5 years.
But thats not it. Those people got tortured, they got used for horrific “scientific” experiments, there were surgery’s held on those people without any kind of painkiller (excuse me English is not my first language).
They were treated less than animals. They had to work in the factories for Hitlers war effort and did horrific jobs, often times loosing limbs. They were extremely malnutritioned, dehydrated, and kept awake forcefully by beeing dumped full of drugs like cocaine and crack. Many times, actually most of the times, they died from exhaustion. If anything was out of the ordinary or they seemed unfit for work, they got used for experiments and if they survived that, killed.
They sometimes stayed for years in those camps.
But the crazy thing about this is. It depends on how you count. In the second world war there were around 12-18mio. Deaths. So depending on who you ask, and what counts for you as a holocaust, for example being forcefully drafted into a military as say a 14 year old and told to run into machine gun fire, you could be closer to around 2 stadiums, per day.
Yes. A stadium full is mass murder, but its not a holocaust. And statements like these will make you hard to believe for many people. I know what you are trying to say. Its a lot a a lot a lot a lot of people. Yes. But if you compare it to the holocaust, thats something whole different.
Additionally, the nazis built infrastructure (trains, KZs, …) just to kill Jews. They optimized it to maximize the amount of Jews to bring into KZs, they built the infamous gas showers and gas chambers to be able to kill more people more efficiently.
They industrialized genocide.
While there were many cruel mass murders, this industrialization thing makes it unique so far.
I had a relationship with a German some years ago. I was told that there was some kind of collective punishment (my words) still going on because of WW2. That Germany still felt responsible, and pushed that responsibility onto the next generation, a generation with no relation to WW2 other than being born in Germany.
Why can’t the older generation let the next generation move on without inheriting their burden?
This is an agenda pushed by the right. They don’t understand the difference between guilt / responsibility for what happened and responsibility to not let it happen again.
We are not guilty nor responsible for what happened during WW2, but we are responsible to not let it ever happen again.
It is not “pushed onto us”. Its important to remember what happend in order to tell the signs and stop it from happening ever again. The narrative of “We are not responsible for it anymore and shouldn’t feel any guilt” is a narrative mostly used by german right-wing conservatists trying to erase this part of our history out of the books and education.
Because everything doable has to be done to prevent something like this from happening ever again. Feeling some guilt is a small price to pay.
Sincerely, a German
My ancestor who died on the nazi operating table upon receiving unimaginable treatment would be very angry we are letting the genocide happen and using this kind of arguments to delay our response
The common people also don’t get listened to, lmao.
Nobody I’ve talked to in the 8-9 months since this all went off are cheering for Israel. Every person I’ve discussed with thinks the whole thing is a mess that should end asap.
Stop conflating right wing news pundits with common folk.
While I do agree with you on a general level, I think this is largely a discussion about how different cultures and languages use the word holocaust.
In Germany, the word Holocaust has a connotation that particularly emphasizes the exceptional nature of the event in comparison to everything that has happened before and since.
This connotation is not necessarily present in other societies, where the meaning is closer to the Greek root ‘holókaustos’ - ‘completely burnt, destroyed’ and this results in the difference between the Holocaust and a holocaust in English.
It is therefore understandable that the term holocaust is used in other languages for what is happening.
Is it helpful though? Here’s my - slightly different - take of why using the word is not necessarily wrong… but unhelpful.
I myself prefer the term “genocide” in the Israeli-Palestinian context, especially because the term holocaust in close proximity to Judaism is extremely loaded and in this context has connotations that are less about Israel’s terrible crimes and more about the somewhat conspiratorial accusation of ‘victims becoming perpetrators’ against Jews as a whole, which resonates with antisemitism and understandably gives rise to accusations of antisemitism to the point of completely losing focus of the important part of the discussion:
The state of Israel is committing extended, organized and deliberate genocide against Palestinians, out of hatred of and revenge against Hamas. This hatred and revenge against Hamas is justified. Targeting innocent Palestinians is not.
One can call this a holocaust, but this choice of word is more likely to derail the discussion and serve an entirely different agenda than the one that tries to achieve some end of the murders in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.
The term was coined during WW2, and it means a mass slaughter of people.
We refer to the WW2 event as the Holocaust, the name of the historical event that invented the word.
There is a difference between the two, and trying to argue that this is not technically comparable to what happened in WW2 because not enough people died yet is a terrible thing to do.
If your ancestors that witnessed what happened during the war were witnessing what is happening today, do you think they would scoff at Palestinians because they don’t have 6 millions deaths yet or would they make the parallel between what happened then and now.
I appreciate your history course, but the kind of discourse you and many other have dilutes the word because you couldn’t be bothered to open a dictionary and look up the meaning of a word. You go around instead , lecturing people saying “akschually…” and spouting the same talking points from the IDF propaganda.
The term itself comes out of the Greek language, around 400 BC. It does not mean mass slaughter or genocide, it means the burning of animals.
In no terms it means anything near mass slaughter. The term though got a different meaning after the second world war, since we called the events holocaust. So, “” akschually"" referring to what happens in Palestine as a holocaust is factually wrong, since the de facto meaning of the word is a religious sacrifice of animals. In modern times the word is only used to refer to the german actions against Jewish people from 1936 to 1945.
Indicating what happens in Palestine is a holocaust is therefore only a comparison between germany 1936 and 1945 to Palestine.
Yes, it may be a genocide, it may be a mass murder/slaughter, BUT it does not even come close to what happened in germany. Therefore it downplays of the events in germany, which is not a good thing.
So, if you want a post it note
A Holocaust is a mass slaughter/genocide
But a mass slaughter/genocide is not a Holocaust.
By the way, my grandparents are still alive and first hand witnesses to what happened here, when the war ended they were 14 and 16 years old. And I have not heard them referring to what happens in Palestine as a Holocaust, neither do I expect them reacting nicely when someone would.
Holocaust has been used and was understood at least since 1189 to describe the burning of Jews. See my comment
Edit: this is btw. not to detract from your point. The word holocaust as the deliberate burning of people was mostly used for burning jews, but also witch-burnings and similar events. Even the great fire of London was called a holocaust.
In pre-WWII parlance, calling what happens in Gaza a holocaust would absolutely be appropriate. Post WWII its usage is just… not helpful and has bad connotations that detract from what is important in the discussion.
The term is greek in origin and referred to burn offering “holókaustos” - “completely/wholely burned”, it was used in this way throughout the middle ages for fire-progroms against Jews (*) and later (1515) to decry the witch-burnings as “the new fire sacrifices” (“nova holocausta”).
* “Eodem coronationis die, circa illam sollemnitatis horam qua Filius immolabatur Patri, incceptum est in civitate Londoniae immolare Judaeos patri suo diabolo ; tantaque fuit hujus Celebris mora mysterii, ut vix altera die compleri potuerit holocaustum” - “On the same day of the coronation, about that solemn hour when the Son was sacrificed to the Father, it was begun in the city of London to sacrifice the Jews to their father the devil; and so great was the delay of this famous mystery, that the next day the holocaust could scarcely have been completed” source
Edit: This is btw. describing the events of the coronation of Richard the Lionheart 1189 CE.
You obviously don’t understand the difference between “a holocaust” and “the Holocaust”. The image we’re discussing here says “the Holocaust”. No need to use insults to compensate for you own ignorance. Maybe go read some Wikipedia.
edit: nm I looked it up… The term genocide was created in 1944 to define the systematic nature of the eradication of the Jews.
hol·o·caust
noun
1.
destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, especially caused by fire or nuclear war.
“a nuclear holocaust”
I would say it’s fair game to call what Israel is doing to the Palestinians another Holocaust. Not all holocausts are genocides though… For instance the citizens of Hiroshima died in a nuclear holocaust, but it wasn’t a genocide. THE Holocaust was just a term given arbitrarily to what happened to the Jews, and there’s no reason the term can’t be used again. If Israel is systematically eradication the Palestinian people then we can call it a genocide. If they are doing so with “destruction and slaughter on a mass scale” we can also call it a holocaust.
The victim’s of the Holocaust are dead, that’s what being a victim of a genocide looks like.
The current genocide is being perpetrated by the descendants of the survivors of the Holocaust. Likely being seen as victims on the world stage for the last 75 years emboldened them to forget the horrors their parents and grand parents lived through.
In truth, genocide is a facet of human society, just like war and famine.
Does China have the US government by the nuts? Does China get F-35s and 2000lb bombs funded by my tax dollars for their genocide? Is China a shining example of western democracy and values in their part of the world? Is it possible to be upset about more than one genocide at a time?
Rather different from directly funding their war machine. And capitalism has never been a mechanism for expressing the moral desires of voters, has it?
In what way is the holocaust happening again? That’s a pretty strong claim.
Edit: This came across wrong. I did not mean to downplay the mass murdering that is happening in Gaza and other places in the world right now.
About 40k Palestinians have been killed by Israel so far. These people are stateless and not allowed to leave, have limited access to food and water, and have no hope of ever fighting back or escaping. That includes the innocent children who represent a huge fraction of the victims. It certainly draws parallels to the Holocaust, if nothing else, though the scale and motivations are different.
Good points.
That we know about. That made it to a place the bodies could be counted. Nobody has peeked into the rubble in most places yet.
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Hello.
I’m a german citizen and i feel obliged to educate you on this topic. I still see the remnants and aftermath of the second world war every single day, living in this history rich country.
The holocaust was ordered in the last few years of the second world war, since it was good knowledge that germany would be loosing amongst german officers. That means approximately 6 mio. People have been killed in around 3.5 years (Yes of course people also died earlier on, but let’s keep it easy). Or equal to: 40.000 people Per Day. So imagine your stadium, gone, every 24 hours. For around 3.5 years.
But thats not it. Those people got tortured, they got used for horrific “scientific” experiments, there were surgery’s held on those people without any kind of painkiller (excuse me English is not my first language).
They were treated less than animals. They had to work in the factories for Hitlers war effort and did horrific jobs, often times loosing limbs. They were extremely malnutritioned, dehydrated, and kept awake forcefully by beeing dumped full of drugs like cocaine and crack. Many times, actually most of the times, they died from exhaustion. If anything was out of the ordinary or they seemed unfit for work, they got used for experiments and if they survived that, killed.
They sometimes stayed for years in those camps.
But the crazy thing about this is. It depends on how you count. In the second world war there were around 12-18mio. Deaths. So depending on who you ask, and what counts for you as a holocaust, for example being forcefully drafted into a military as say a 14 year old and told to run into machine gun fire, you could be closer to around 2 stadiums, per day.
Yes. A stadium full is mass murder, but its not a holocaust. And statements like these will make you hard to believe for many people. I know what you are trying to say. Its a lot a a lot a lot a lot of people. Yes. But if you compare it to the holocaust, thats something whole different.
This.
Additionally, the nazis built infrastructure (trains, KZs, …) just to kill Jews. They optimized it to maximize the amount of Jews to bring into KZs, they built the infamous gas showers and gas chambers to be able to kill more people more efficiently.
They industrialized genocide.
While there were many cruel mass murders, this industrialization thing makes it unique so far.
Greetings from a fellow German.
I had a relationship with a German some years ago. I was told that there was some kind of collective punishment (my words) still going on because of WW2. That Germany still felt responsible, and pushed that responsibility onto the next generation, a generation with no relation to WW2 other than being born in Germany.
Why can’t the older generation let the next generation move on without inheriting their burden?
This is an agenda pushed by the right. They don’t understand the difference between guilt / responsibility for what happened and responsibility to not let it happen again.
We are not guilty nor responsible for what happened during WW2, but we are responsible to not let it ever happen again.
It is not “pushed onto us”. Its important to remember what happend in order to tell the signs and stop it from happening ever again. The narrative of “We are not responsible for it anymore and shouldn’t feel any guilt” is a narrative mostly used by german right-wing conservatists trying to erase this part of our history out of the books and education.
Because everything doable has to be done to prevent something like this from happening ever again. Feeling some guilt is a small price to pay. Sincerely, a German
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My ancestor who died on the nazi operating table upon receiving unimaginable treatment would be very angry we are letting the genocide happen and using this kind of arguments to delay our response
True, and I never said otherwise.
If you think world leaders are taking policy notes from the bottom of a comment chain on Lemmy, you’re gonna have a bad time.
They don’t, but if the common people could at least stop repeating the IDF mouth piece, it would do wonders.
The common people also don’t get listened to, lmao.
Nobody I’ve talked to in the 8-9 months since this all went off are cheering for Israel. Every person I’ve discussed with thinks the whole thing is a mess that should end asap.
Stop conflating right wing news pundits with common folk.
While I do agree with you on a general level, I think this is largely a discussion about how different cultures and languages use the word holocaust.
In Germany, the word Holocaust has a connotation that particularly emphasizes the exceptional nature of the event in comparison to everything that has happened before and since.
This connotation is not necessarily present in other societies, where the meaning is closer to the Greek root ‘holókaustos’ - ‘completely burnt, destroyed’ and this results in the difference between the Holocaust and a holocaust in English.
It is therefore understandable that the term holocaust is used in other languages for what is happening.
Is it helpful though? Here’s my - slightly different - take of why using the word is not necessarily wrong… but unhelpful.
I myself prefer the term “genocide” in the Israeli-Palestinian context, especially because the term holocaust in close proximity to Judaism is extremely loaded and in this context has connotations that are less about Israel’s terrible crimes and more about the somewhat conspiratorial accusation of ‘victims becoming perpetrators’ against Jews as a whole, which resonates with antisemitism and understandably gives rise to accusations of antisemitism to the point of completely losing focus of the important part of the discussion:
The state of Israel is committing extended, organized and deliberate genocide against Palestinians, out of hatred of and revenge against Hamas. This hatred and revenge against Hamas is justified. Targeting innocent Palestinians is not.
One can call this a holocaust, but this choice of word is more likely to derail the discussion and serve an entirely different agenda than the one that tries to achieve some end of the murders in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.
The term was coined during WW2, and it means a mass slaughter of people.
We refer to the WW2 event as the Holocaust, the name of the historical event that invented the word.
There is a difference between the two, and trying to argue that this is not technically comparable to what happened in WW2 because not enough people died yet is a terrible thing to do.
If your ancestors that witnessed what happened during the war were witnessing what is happening today, do you think they would scoff at Palestinians because they don’t have 6 millions deaths yet or would they make the parallel between what happened then and now.
I appreciate your history course, but the kind of discourse you and many other have dilutes the word because you couldn’t be bothered to open a dictionary and look up the meaning of a word. You go around instead , lecturing people saying “akschually…” and spouting the same talking points from the IDF propaganda.
If you want a post it note for next time.
The Holocaust (event) : what happened during WW2
a holocaust (name): the mass murder of people
The term itself comes out of the Greek language, around 400 BC. It does not mean mass slaughter or genocide, it means the burning of animals.
In no terms it means anything near mass slaughter. The term though got a different meaning after the second world war, since we called the events holocaust. So, “” akschually"" referring to what happens in Palestine as a holocaust is factually wrong, since the de facto meaning of the word is a religious sacrifice of animals. In modern times the word is only used to refer to the german actions against Jewish people from 1936 to 1945.
Indicating what happens in Palestine is a holocaust is therefore only a comparison between germany 1936 and 1945 to Palestine.
Yes, it may be a genocide, it may be a mass murder/slaughter, BUT it does not even come close to what happened in germany. Therefore it downplays of the events in germany, which is not a good thing.
So, if you want a post it note
A Holocaust is a mass slaughter/genocide
But a mass slaughter/genocide is not a Holocaust.
By the way, my grandparents are still alive and first hand witnesses to what happened here, when the war ended they were 14 and 16 years old. And I have not heard them referring to what happens in Palestine as a Holocaust, neither do I expect them reacting nicely when someone would.
And tbh, wtf are we even fighting about.
Holocaust has been used and was understood at least since 1189 to describe the burning of Jews. See my comment
Edit: this is btw. not to detract from your point. The word holocaust as the deliberate burning of people was mostly used for burning jews, but also witch-burnings and similar events. Even the great fire of London was called a holocaust.
In pre-WWII parlance, calling what happens in Gaza a holocaust would absolutely be appropriate. Post WWII its usage is just… not helpful and has bad connotations that detract from what is important in the discussion.
The term is greek in origin and referred to burn offering “holókaustos” - “completely/wholely burned”, it was used in this way throughout the middle ages for fire-progroms against Jews (*) and later (1515) to decry the witch-burnings as “the new fire sacrifices” (“nova holocausta”).
* “Eodem coronationis die, circa illam sollemnitatis horam qua Filius immolabatur Patri, incceptum est in civitate Londoniae immolare Judaeos patri suo diabolo ; tantaque fuit hujus Celebris mora mysterii, ut vix altera die compleri potuerit holocaustum” - “On the same day of the coronation, about that solemn hour when the Son was sacrificed to the Father, it was begun in the city of London to sacrifice the Jews to their father the devil; and so great was the delay of this famous mystery, that the next day the holocaust could scarcely have been completed” source
Edit: This is btw. describing the events of the coronation of Richard the Lionheart 1189 CE.
The definition is industrialized mass murder… it’s not that easy.
No the definition is a mass murder.
There is a distincting between the Holocaust, the event that happened during WW2, and a holocaust, the definition for a mass murder.
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And what do you think will happen if we let them? It would be much worse than the actual Holocaust. Past torture victims make the worst torturers
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You obviously don’t understand the difference between “a holocaust” and “the Holocaust”. The image we’re discussing here says “the Holocaust”. No need to use insults to compensate for you own ignorance. Maybe go read some Wikipedia.
The holocaust was an event in WWII. 1942-1945.
CHECK YOUR CALENDAR ☝️
Hey doodoo, check the definition in the Merriam Webster dictionary, definition 3B :
a mass slaughter of people
If that is not a massive slaughter, then I am president of planet Earth.
“The”
Here, smartass, you missed this☝️ important little bit when you searched Merriam Webster. I saved a snippet for you ;)
3 a usually the Holocaust : the mass slaughter of European civilians and especially Jews by the Nazis during World War II
Did you read down to the third entry, where it says “usually”?
Get rekt. Language is based on common practice.
Oh of course! There aren’t 6 million Palestinians in Gaza so we can fucking murder them all and it’ll be totally fine! Still not 6 mil, amirite?
You sound mad, but ‘the holocaust’ was a specific event in wwII. 1942-1945.
All holocausts are genocides, not all genocides are holocausts.
Hope this helps you 🫶
What’s the difference? (Serious)
edit: nm I looked it up… The term genocide was created in 1944 to define the systematic nature of the eradication of the Jews.
hol·o·caust noun 1. destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, especially caused by fire or nuclear war. “a nuclear holocaust”
I would say it’s fair game to call what Israel is doing to the Palestinians another Holocaust. Not all holocausts are genocides though… For instance the citizens of Hiroshima died in a nuclear holocaust, but it wasn’t a genocide. THE Holocaust was just a term given arbitrarily to what happened to the Jews, and there’s no reason the term can’t be used again. If Israel is systematically eradication the Palestinian people then we can call it a genocide. If they are doing so with “destruction and slaughter on a mass scale” we can also call it a holocaust.
The dates. (Seriously)
It’s 2024. The Holocaust (a specific genocide) ended 79 years ago.
So again, all holocausts are genocides, but not all genocides are holocausts.
I don’t make words or their meanings.
I hope this helps 🫶
Well yeah… Obviously THE Holocaust isn’t happening again… But A holocaust is… And sadly it’s being perpetrated by the victims of THE Holocaust
The victim’s of the Holocaust are dead, that’s what being a victim of a genocide looks like.
The current genocide is being perpetrated by the descendants of the survivors of the Holocaust. Likely being seen as victims on the world stage for the last 75 years emboldened them to forget the horrors their parents and grand parents lived through.
In truth, genocide is a facet of human society, just like war and famine.
There’s still those concentration camps in China that we’ve All just accepted as a normal part of life now
True
Does China have the US government by the nuts? Does China get F-35s and 2000lb bombs funded by my tax dollars for their genocide? Is China a shining example of western democracy and values in their part of the world? Is it possible to be upset about more than one genocide at a time?
Yes, now be upset and in arms about the Genocide in China. Go ahead. We are waiting.
Is the western world supporting China? I was unaware?.
We use their inhumane labor to cut cost here at home. Oops, it’s OK, you must’ve forgot.
Rather different from directly funding their war machine. And capitalism has never been a mechanism for expressing the moral desires of voters, has it?
What is your actual argument, because it sounds like:
“Nothing can be done so we shouldnt draw attention to it or even talk about it in Genocide related discussions.”
Which, if I follow the leftist playbook, you are an advocate for genocide.
No. My argument is is twofold:
Except you didn’t adress any of my arguments.
You responded to me in this specific thread
Simply stop buying Chinese products!
Something something Amazon largest retailer
Dont bother arguing with these people. They get their history from tiktok and I’m not even sure they can read.