Curious how many will defect once outside North Korea.
According to hexbear you would have to have some deranged lib mind to believe any would want to.
NKers are simultaneously brainwashed morons who follow their leader with fanatical delusion and utterly naive children who can be lured to defection by a few pieces of candy and a charming smile.
The hexbears are too stupid to realize that all Koreans yearn for the unlimited freedom of their Southern neighbors and yet too wicked to believe the unvarnished truths of such media luminaries as Yeomni Park. They should all be sent to North Korea to eat grass and toil in the mines and get beaten to a pulp by Kim’s totalitarian police, then repatriated so that they can apologize for their ignorant beliefs.
Those children are completely delusional. I saw a thread about why the entire country is unlit at night which was a parody of itself. I wonder what their demographics are, if not 100% bots.
Surprisingly a lot of them on the Lemmy communities are also trans.
I’m not sure they’re aware how LGBT people are treated in those countries. Either that or just willful ignorance I guess
Server blocking hexbear is the only way to stay sane on Lemmy.
We defederated them a while ago over here. Along with some right wing instances too. The extremists from either side of the political spectrum really spoil the experience.
They sure do love authoritarianism more than they like leftism.
Look @ the tankie!
/s
Maybe on account of the communities I subscribe to, but I’ve personally not come across right wing extremism on Lemmy. The tankies, though … so prevalent. Anyways, by server blocking hexbear it’s reduced by 90%.
Most of the ones that do end up regretting it /shrugThis is wrong - it’s not that they end up regretting it so much as most of them never want to go to South Korea in the first place.
About 18% of North Korean defectors regret it.
The number one reason is wanting to see family and friends who are still trapped in North Korea.
About 18% of North Korean defectors regret it.
Around 20% of defectors have considered returning to North Korea. But that has less to do with the appeal of the North than the poor treatment of expats in the South.
The South Korean immigration and labor laws make finding work south of the border incredibly difficult. North Korean expats are confined to menial service sector and grueling industrial work while being largely cut out of South Korean social life due to heavy stigmas against them. Its an incredibly hard life and not remotely like the glamorous existence of social elites that Americans claim drive the periodic defections.
The 18% figure is a biased sample from an anti-DPRK NGO. More comprehensive research into North Korean defectors by Cho Cheon-hyeon for his book Defectors indicate that most North Korean defectors simply want to make money in China, with only about 40% of defectors wanting to go to South Korea.
So I did misremember, but my point still stands on the fact that most of them don’t want to defect to South Korea, even before taking into account that even at their 2009 peak defectors were a tiny fraction of a percent of North Korea’s population and the existence of them in no way implicates all of North Korean society in secretly wanting to escape.
That last statement is meaningless given the crazy levels of security they have on keeping people in. If they took away all the restrictions on leaving then the numbers would go through the roof.
If so few people want to leave, why are so many resources directed into preventing people from leaving? I can’t think of any other country that works so hard to keep their citizens from escaping. Usually the largest barrier to leaving a country is the policies of the country you’re entering.
The fact they’re called defectors says it all. Anywhere else they’d be called emigrants.
I’m sure you’ll be able to provide me with a sound study confirming this.
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Very few, as North Korea hand picks everyone who gets to leave by essentially keeping their entire family hostage, and any “traitor family” will find them sentenced to life in prison/labour camp - including any children born in those camps.
And they are places you wouldn’t wish for anyone to end up in, especially your loved ones.
You haven’t met my family.
Not to worry! Li’l Kim’s Bestest Buddy and Honorary Number One Chief Saluter will be ready to help NK help Russia destroy Ukraine and NATO.
All you MAGA service “losers” and “suckers” got quite the cognitive dissonance jam rockin’ huh.
That military man looked really important. Even a king would salute.
To be fair, the orange rapist found some good speed on that trip
To be fair, the orange convicted felon and rapist found some good speed on that trip
I hate this dunk because it’s clearly shown in the original video that the DPRK officer saluted Trump first. The president salutes like fifty Marines every single day, it’s not strange for him to reflexively salute someone else without thinking about it.
50 US Marines, of which he is their Commander in Chief.
North Korea has been an American rival since 1950. Imagine if any other President had done this.
But you don’t even have to, just look at the response to Obama bowing to the emperor of Japan, an ally.
My point is that if you see people salute you and you salute them back, do it enough times and it will become a reflex. The response to Obama bowing to someone in a culture where bowing is totally normal was equally stupid, but it was conservatives doing it instead of liberals.
Probably best not to be running on autopilot around North Fucking Koreans though.
Eh, in Trump’s case it was best to be running in autopilot… His tweets were him “thinking”
It was a diplomatic meeting, what were they gonna do? Kidnap the president of the united states?
Not a single one of those support troops has any combat experience.
So good luck, guys.
North Korea has had surprisingly close ties with various African states going back to the Cold War and NK mercenaries have served in Syria, Uganda, Zimbabwe, Zanzibar, and South Africa in the relatively recent past.
NKers also have an active role in state-sanctioned smuggling and piracy. I think you’d be surprised how much combat experience they’ve accrued.
And they’ll still be the most experienced combat troops Putin can field. At least they get lots of practice marching up and down the square.
I hope everyone that keeps down voting me for talking about WW3 are right…
But man, it really is starting to look like WW3
People forgot how long it took the other world wars to really get rolling. (Presumably because they weren’t alive when it happened.)
I’m also of the opinion that unless something happens to de-escalate this conflict it will inevitably draw Europe, the US, and China in.
They also forget about the 4+1 treaty.
If Israel expands to other countries, it would draw Russia in on their side, and the US on Israel’s
Which now also brings NK in. And we’ve got a multi front multi country war with two distinct fronts.
People might not call it WW3, but there’s a world war coming straight ahead, and as good of a movie as it was, I dont want to recreate the Titanic
It didn’t take long at all for WW1 to get rolling.
June 28, 1914 Archduke Francis Ferdinand is assassinated.
July 28, 1914 Austria-Hungary declares war on Serbia, beginning World War I
WW1 has an insane pace compared to WW2. Battles where a single day has casualty numbers that compare to an entire month past D-day.
They didn’t start calling WWII what it is until 1944, but I think we can all agree it didn’t start in 1944.
Just like later historians placed the start of WWII on multiple different events depending on which country you’re in, the start of World War III will be long before we start calling it that.
I’m in the camp that the start of WW3 will be the Russian invasion of Ukraine if things continue to escalate the way they’re going, because that’s when you really started seeing lines being drawn between the axis and allies.
Russia, China, Iran, and NK are the most recognizable names that have aligned themselves with the axis so far.
The lines are already drawn and future events will dictate whether or not we’re currently living in WW3 today.Also, the winners will interprete who gets to be the axis and who gets to be the allies in history books…
Pretty sure Iran adopted “Axis of Resistance” already. Least they already know what side they are on.
Really getting sick of people deciding to just like…starting shit instead of focusing on constructive competitions like science or space races to other planets. Why do people feel the need to kill the shit out of each other and subjugate their population whilst climate change is bearing down on us? :p
I am also sick to the core about this aspect of humanity. I feel that we as a species are just about developed enough to understand how a better world would look like, and how people should act, what’s “the right thing to do” - and very much not developed enough to overcome our egoism and narcissism to make it happen, so we do the wrong thing despite knowing better far too often.
For most of history you would be better off if you could kill the next village over. You want to be friends with the people in your village, but if you kill the next one you can expand your farm/hunting/gathering grounds and then leave it to your kids - while otherwise you won’t have enough food for all the kids and your DNA is in danger of not getting passed on.
In our modern world we mostly have plenty of food (and when we don’t lack of land is not the issue), but that isn’t what our DNA is evolved to “think”
For most of history you would be better off if you could kill the next village over.
That is an incredibly stupid take. For most of history, the planet was so vast that people had plenty of room to hunt / farm / whatever. And no, killing other humans is not in our DNA, the only people who feel like that are those with brain damage / development defects.
Most of the planet was not accessable. It was there but your local population grew until the land couldn’t support more. There wasn’t much opportunity to move as the surronding villages had the same problem.
of course when a famon came you got a few generations of peace here and there
And some would argue that WW1 was WW2 and WW2 WAS WW3. The 7 years war/French and Indian (not French vs Indian) war are commonly referred to as the real first world war. And then the Nepoleonic wars are similarly thought of by some to have been a world war of sorts
WWI was called the great war, and the war to end all wars until WWII broke out. I sometimes call WWII just the great war part 2 - the treaties that “ended” WWI were clearly setup (on hindsight!) to make the war break out again in the future when Germany got sick of those treaties.
The point is names are added after the fact and often don’t make a lot of sense if you know details.
“This is not a peace. It is an armistice for twenty years!”
Ferdinand Foch, 1921
He was right for the wrong reasons. He believed the treaty was too lenient, when in retrospect it seems pretty clear that the punitive nature of the treaty was a significant factor in Hitler rising to power and then WW2 starting.
For sure, I know allll about that stuff (former history teacher)
To me it looks like N Korea wanting to acquire some direct combat experience to continue to develop their skills and capabilities.
But yes, personally I was not expecting this.
Skill acquired: cannon fodder
To me, it does not seem wise to just let these two continue along this path, but I am certain there are numerous internet experts out there who can explain to me why we should not intervene.
How would you propose the intervention happen? Sit Kim down and say “bad boy, stop it”?
What can “the west” really do to prevent or stop troops from NK being sent to the Ukraine front?
Russia isn’t going to stop them from crossing their border.
What can “the west” really do to prevent or stop troops from NK being sent to the Ukraine front?
Drop leaflets on them inviting them to surrender and upgrade their lives to South Korean national.
upgrade their lives to South Korean national
Considering that North Korean defectors are a heavily discriminated against minority in South Korea, this is unlikely to be an attractive offer.
Considering that North Korea is literally the worse country in the world to live it, this is super likely to be an attractive offer.
the worse country in the world to live it
worst* in*
And I dunno about that. North Korea’s average soldier age isn’t forty-five.
Nobody’s average soldier age is 45. Has nothing to do NK being rock bottom in country rankings. And the younger you are in NK, the more you are probably screwed.
To be honest that’s likely the most effective. Though not very effective compared to threats against family.
What can “the west” really do to prevent or stop troops from NK being sent to the Ukraine front?
Stop sabotaging peace talks, pressure Ukraine to accept the terms as they exist now before they get worse, lift the sanctions on North Korea in order to incentivize them to integrate with the rest of the world, withdraw US military equipment from South Korea. Kim Jong Un is often presented in American news like a crazy person, but truthfully he (and the rest of the actors in the North Korean state) is a rational actor and the “hermit kingdom” is not an aspirational goal of the DPRK but a state of affairs that has been forced upon them by decades of sanctions and isolation - give them a reason to be neutral, and assurances that they won’t be stabbed in the back (as they have been in previous deals with Western countries), and there’s a good chance they’ll take it.
Hmmm. While that would technically stop Russia from needing the troops in Ukraine, I don’t think that just giving a dictator sections of land because he claimed them is a good path.
“Just give up when I take your shit” is a shit take.
Ukraine had an opportunity to keep the Donbas by implementing the Minsk Agreements. Zelensky literally ran on the promise of ending the war and implementing the agreements. This path was not chosen by Russia, it was chosen by the Ukrainians, who refused to reconcile with their Russian-speaking minority groups. With every passing day, the deal will only get worse for the Ukrainians, and the sooner they accept the better the deal they will get.
But instead America and Europe are ready to do whatever it takes to throw every single Ukrainian body directly into Russian (and North Korean) artillery.
“They could have not gotten invaded if they just gave up their rights to protect themselves!”
You mean Russia and NK?
Or you meant the two countries in the middle of illegal invasions: Russia and Israel?
Fuck Israel, but that being said what the hell does Israel have to do with anything here?
Israel and Hezbollah have been exchanging rocket fire, and Israel is talking about a ground invasion.
Hezbollah has a defense treaty with Iran, Iraq, Russia, and another ME country I’m blanking on.
If Israel invaded Lebanon in an attack on Hezbollah, that draws in Russia, and likely NK.
Israel and Russia are the two countries invading others that I believe are the primary drivers towards WW3. NK is just a long for the ride until/unless they launch an attack on SK.
But I think before that happens, we’ll solidly be in WW3. I think NK is onboard now, with the promise to be backed against SK later. No one is attack NK unless NK starts some shit, they don’t need a defense treaty.
Israel would solo Russia ggez.
The truth is, we don’t fucking know. No expert would tell you that Russia is ready to invade Ukraine, and here we go.
I wasn’t even an expert but I knew they would do that just by distribution of military. Did not expect Civ 5 to be accurate, tho
Be careful here. Experts would tell you that Russia was going to invade Ukraine. However as you say Russia wasn’t ready for it.
Pretty asymmetric that isn’t it. On one side you have a nation that is rapidly running out of, well basically everything, and on the other side you’ve got an alliance of nation states which contain among many other things the largest most powerful military on the planet.
Finally the nation that is running out of resources is now getting military support from quite possibly the worst place they could get it from.
It’s going to be one of those ridiculous situations that only happens in Civilization, where you’re bombing cavemen with nukes because your adversary has failed to advance through the tech tree fast enough.
Unfortunately China is not running out of everything and they are looking like they might back Russia here. Iran is also backing Russia and not to be underestimated.
But man, it really is starting to look like WW3
It looks more like Crimean War II to me.
a yes, one country against the entire world, truly the ww3 of all times, we downvote your take is stupid
So it’s OK for Ukraine to invite friends along to help too?
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the US announced it would lift the ban on American contractors going to Ukraine at the same time as this. Russia reaps what it sows. Ukraine gets highly payed and skilled contractors, in return, Russia gets malnourished and untrained Korean conscripts.
The North Koreans are perfect for the Russian tactic of forcing the Ukrainians to deplete their ammo by throwing meat at them.
The best tactic Ukraine could have at this point would just be to encourage the North Koreans to defect. Can’t imagine it’ll be particularly difficult, “hey switch sides and we won’t kill you, and here’s a free house with electricity, water and indoor plumbing”.
It would be like trying to convince people to leave the 15th century.
… “and don’t worry about your family back home in North Korea who will be compressed into tinned meal”.
The defection rate will be low I suspect. It’s an automatic TFK (total family kill) to defect and I doubt they’ll send anyone who don’t have family at home in Glorious Motherland!
I wonder if many will even fight? If I were from North Korea, I’d consider surrender to be a godsend. They would do terrible things to the family members, though… I guess that’s the true cruelty of regimes like this. They punish the people you love.
I dont think it’s quite the same thing though. US contractors won’t be fighting, I think they’ll just be maintaining and repairing equipment.
Arguably, a much more critical job for a capital-intensive army.
Yes, it’s actually huge. Especially for maintaining a weapon as complicated as an Abrams tank. If it can be repaired close to the front lines then that has the potential to cut days off the turnaround time compared to towing it over to Poland.
I will never understand why the American military think it’s a good idea to send them tanks that are so complicated. Especially when they’re going up against cold war era relics.
Because it’s what we have to send. It’s not like we have a lot of extra Sherman tanks we can send anymore.
Do we have non-complicated tanks?
Russia gets malnourished and untrained Korean conscripts.
Just offer them all plane tickets to South Korea. Problem solved.
Zerg swarm VS marines
According to Russian propaganda Ukraine has been doing just that the entire time, but if it actually happened that would be yet another red line to cross.
Sometime back kim was crying so that women make more babies, now he is sending men to his friend. And we know the mortality rate of North Korea. I have never seen a country run out of people, I think I will see it soon
These guys will have a better time in Ukrainian captivity than 99% of the population at home…
Maybe even food and medication against tap worms? I’m in!
Time to translate those surrender instruction leaflets to Korean. Maybe go ahead and plan to build a large camp for malnourished people.
Maybe that’s the tactic, force Ukraine to divert food and resources to feeding thousands of Korean deserters.
Ukrain is a country of 40 million people, with millions already internally displaced from the war. A few thousand extra refugees wouldnt even be noticed.
Maybe go ahead and plan to build a large camp for malnourished people.
Or just invite the South Korean government to send agents to Ukraine to invite them all to South Korea.
Can the average north Korean read though?
Funny thing is the eventual survivor won’t be brought back to NK after having seen the lavish lifes the russians live…
Or the lavish living conditions of a Ukraine POW cell.
News in 30 days: Digestive Parasites are up 70,000% in Eastern Ukraine.
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You realize these are real people, war is so sad and you are comparing it to Christmas :(
We aint the ones sending them to their deaths, its a waste of human life but one we cant do jackshit about without escalating which most folks dont want. So that leaves us with only a handful of options all with the same end result, fuck all. Id rather laugh than feel sick to the stomach with rage.
That’s gross.
Psst, your mask is slipping
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Who let NonCredibleDefense out of their cage? Goddamnit now we need a clean up crew.
A free trip for defection for North Koreans!
Does north korea have actually good military power? I’ve seen their parades here and there, but does anyone know if they have updated equipment, trained military personnel, good intelligence, etc?
They have massive amount of soldiers and are good and making artillery and missiles. It is a big black box however since they haven’t been engaged in a conflict recently so all their troops lack experience.
Their economy is practically built for conflict so it shouldn’t be taken lightly.
Yeah, I don’t think numbers is everything, lacking experience or leadership can tip the balance against you in a blink
Yeah, I have a feeling that they will have very low morale because of lack of motivating factors. Desertion might also become a massive problem since this is one of the few ways to get out of the DPRK.
True, but we’ve already seen from Russia what sheer numbers can do, even under-equipped and untrained.
It is a big black box however since they haven’t been engaged in a conflict recently so all their troops lack experience.
They’ve been deployed to Syria since at least 2019 and assisted Hezbollah in its tunnel networks going back decades.
Lmao
I’m putting good money down that they either have mass surrenders, or they’re just too malnourished to fight.
Possibly both.
Oh, oh! Or they refuse to come back from Russia, and that pisses off NK .
My money is on NK never sending anyone and this all being political theater. Please. Please please please.
That makes the most sense. NK doesn’t stand to gain much, but they haven’t got much to lose
I suspect NK will kill their families if they refuse to come back, but I’d be completely unsurprised if some fake their deaths and try to disappear.
Then it’d just be NK sending a bunch of soldiers who get to emigrate to Ukraine.
So did I hear that the US is considering letting “contractors” take Ukrainian contracts? Blackrock would ruin these morons!
So did I hear that the US is considering letting “contractors” take Ukrainian contracts?
The US has been sending “advisers” into Ukraine since the war began. And we’ve had intelligence officers in this country for decades.
Blackrock would ruin these morons!
Mercenaries and auxiliaries are useless and dangerous; and if one holds his state based on these arms, he will stand neither firm nor safe; for they are disunited, ambitious, and without discipline, unfaithful, valiant before friends, cowardly before enemies; they have neither the fear of God nor fidelity to men, and destruction is deferred only so long as the attack is; for in peace one is robbed by them, and in war by the enemy. The fact is, they have no other attraction or reason for keeping the field than a trifle of stipend, which is not sufficient to make them willing to die for you.
Someone read the prince :P
Fuck mercenaries. Time for some good old sheep dipping.
