• xantonin@lemmy.world
    180·
    1 year ago

    A sleep scientist/professor named Matt Walker has a podcast about, you guessed it, sleep. He talks about this and how it’s very unfair to people who are biologically programmed to get tired later.

    He goes on to describe scientific proof of the effect this has on their sleep and the impact to their health. It’s sad really, but his hope is to raise awareness and acceptance of the night owl’s schedule.

      • Metacortechs@lemmy.world
        21·
        1 year ago

        This attitude is maddening. I am diagnosed with delayed sleep phase syndrome that will turn into a non 24 hour rhythm if I let it. I’ve worked with sleep doctors all over the country, most recently Duke.

        I’m lucky that my work lets me start at 11am, I don’t get enough sleep those days but better than it could be.

        Unfortunately I’m on call every other week, so forcing my clock to reset isn’t an option. It takes me 6 to 10 weeks to get to societies ideal sleep schedule, and a single night of interrupted sleep to undo all that work

        The weeks I’m not on call are my weeks with my daughter, who has to be at school at 730 and there’s no bus for her to ride.

        Either week, my schedule is fucked and I’m in a haze all the time. Helpfully anyone who finds out about it just tells me to excercise more (makes no difference, ive done a lot of testing and exclusion), stop caffeine (tried it), stop using screens of any kind after work (been there), or any other thing that they think I am doing wrong and causing the problem.

        I did not expect to rant that much… I completely agree, science means nothing in the face of feelings and preconceived notions.

        • exoplanetary@lemmy.world
          7·
          1 year ago

          I feel ya. I’ve got the same thing. Luckily I’m still young and don’t have kids so I can at least adjust my schedule consistently, but man it sucks having to get up at 6 am on the weekends. The real frustrating bit is that I could totally get up 2 hours later if only I could WFH consistently. But corporate doesn’t like remote work so I have to go into the office at least 2 days a week to sit at a computer all day and program. Wonderful world we live in

      • loobkoob@kbin.social
        102·
        1 year ago

        It’s not only about being tired enough to fall asleep early. If I stick to a 10pm-6am sleep schedule I feel exhausted during the day, and by early afternoon I’ll be falling asleep. It’s like being jetlagged permanently; my body simply doesn’t want to keep to that schedule. It’s not just an “oh, you need to stick to the schedule long enough to adapt and get into a proper routine” situation either - it’s something I struggled with for years while I was in school and university, despite getting enough sleep.

        It’s amazing how much better and more energetic I feel - physically and mentally - now I’m able to keep to a sleep schedule that suits me. Obviously exercising is a good thing, but early/delayed sleep phase syndrome are real things.

        • Altima NEO@lemmy.zipEnglish
          19·
          1 year ago

          Yeah, whenever I get up early, like 5 am, I wind up feeling sleepy and groggy all day and need a nap when I get home. Yet I can get up at 7 and feel fine all day, not need to go to bed till 11 pm.

          • Gork@lemm.ee
            15·
            1 year ago

            I once had to do 12.5 hr shift work.

            Going from 7 am to 7:30 pm wasn’t too bad compared to the nightmare that was 5 am to 5:30 pm, which meant I had to get up by no later than 4 am.

            Same amount of time but the phase shift just completely messed everything up because my body just refused to comply that early in the morning.

          • dependencyInjection@sh.itjust.works
            14·
            1 year ago

            Not OP but mine is 00:00 - 06:00.

            I can’t fall asleep at 22:00. But my ideal schedule if I work permitted it would be 02:00 - 10:00. When I’ve kept this schedule before it’s literally night and day how better I feel.

            I could go to sleep however early you like but I’d still be wrecked at 06:00.

          • loobkoob@kbin.social
            4·
            1 year ago

            Typically around 04:00-12:00 for me. Fortunately, I have a job that fits nicely around that, so I’m in a pretty good place overall, but when I do have to try to shift to more “normal” schedules it really wreaks havoc on my energy levels and mental clarity.

            I’ve tried all sorts in an attempt to make a “normal” schedule work for me, like sleep monitoring, therapy, sleeping pills, and just being really over-the-top about my sleep hygiene (like not allowing screen usage for X hours before bed, no drinking or eating X hours before bed, etc). I can sort of make a “normal” schedule stick but I never feel good for it. And it takes constant work because my body naturally wants to gradually drift back towards a 4am sleep time, and I find going to sleep earlier than previous nights very difficult so once it starts slipping it usually takes an all-nighter to get it back to where I want it.

            Like I said, I’ve generally got things pretty good right now with my job and lifestyle working around my sleep schedule. But it’d certainly be a lot easier if society didn’t think I was lazy and was able to accommodate me (and other people with less “normal” sleep schedules) a little more.

      • braxy29@lemmy.world
        27·
        1 year ago

        wow! i’m sure the neuroscientist-sleep expert never thought of that! he should have checked with you.

      • herr@lemmy.world
        16·
        1 year ago

        If I worked a physically intensive job from 8-4 you can be sure as shit I’d be dead asleep by 10pm at the latest.

        • 👁️👄👁️@lemm.eeEnglish
          3·
          1 year ago

          That’s what I do, except 6 to 230. I have to always take naps after, then go to sleep again at like 11 or 12. My sleep gets super fucked lol.

      • angrystego@lemmy.world
        1·
        1 year ago

        I think this is a good point, even if unpoppular. Physical activity can help a lot with sleeping. Colleagues, please, notice there’s “many of us”, not “all of us” in the comment before you downvote.

        • Metacortechs@lemmy.world
          1·
          1 year ago

          I think part of the unpopular reception is that those of us that suffer intractable sleep issues are told this constantly by people who just don’t understand it or are just out to shit on people they think are lazy.

          From my parents convinced that I was useless and lazy, to co-workers who are sure I’m just too stupid to be able to sleep well, to partners I’ve had in the past… Always explaining to me how I’m doing something wrong, and surely if you just try to sleep you can. No. No I can’t. No matter what I do, even sleep aids are only effective for a week or two at the most.

          It’s insulting to constantly hear people tell me that I just need to do this, or that and I’ll be able to sleep. Yes, I see it says many of us, but decades of being shit on for something we can’t control takes a toll.

          I’ve struggled for 30 years to sleep ‘acceptable’ hours. At best, I can wake up early if I have to, and I do a lot because my child’s school starts way too damn early on the weeks she’s with me, and I’m on-call every other week when she’s not. That means I get 3-4 hours sleep most week nights. I’m too old for this shit, but I have no choice and no options. We know that not sleeping enough can have severe effects on physical and mental health, but if you aren’t on a ‘normal’ schedule that goes out the window.

      • Lonnie123@lemmy.world
        25·
        1 year ago

        Or figure out something that doesnt require you to be up that early?? There is science out there that there are genuinely “morning people” and “night owls”, setting an alarm is a fine thing to do but it literally is in opposition to some people biology. I have been fortunate in my line of work (nursing, where shifts are usually either 7am or 7pm start times) to find a shift that starts and noon and ends at mid night, perfect for me.

      • dependencyInjection@sh.itjust.works
        20·
        1 year ago

        Excellent use of your empathy there.

        If I have to do it so should everybody mentality.

        If some humans can handle lactose and others can’t. Some suffer from migraines whilst others don’t etc. you don’t think it’s possible that we also have different circadian rhythms.

        Perhaps you could exercise some critical thought. Maybe go read any of the various studies on sleep and make an informed decision rather than a knee jerk reaction.

        Also, positive intent. Just assume people are being truthful for the most part. Life is easier if you’re not looking to shit on people.

      • SkyeStarfall
        15·
        1 year ago

        Why does making things fair for everyone mean punishing the currently privileged people to you?

          • dependencyInjection@sh.itjust.works
            4·
            1 year ago

            You can’t see that the more people cycle or the more bus lanes we have also means less cars.

            Try framing it like this. Every time you see a cyclist remember that’s one less car. Or a bus could be 20-50 less cars on the road.

              • SpiderShoeCult@sopuli.xyz
                3·
                1 year ago

                Well, never is a bit of a strong word here. Copenhagen and Amsterdam have something to say about that. Now I’m not a fuckcars person, but I do see the value for those places. I am also aware that it works there because of multiple factors that do not necessarily translate well to other places, not just plopping a bike lane and hoping people won’t just use it for parking their cars. Oslo, for instance does not have the same infrastructure for bikes as Copenhagen does, presumably because they get worse winters?

                I’ll say this, though, I was extremely surprised to see a traffic jam on the bike lane and no jam on the car lane.

              • dependencyInjection@sh.itjust.works
                2·
                1 year ago

                Have you ever been to London? Because we have many many cycle lanes and it does help the flow of traffic.

                Ever heard of Amsterdam?

                I’m happy to be shown some examples to the contrary though.

      • Franklin@lemmy.world
        13·
        1 year ago

        Adapting a system to suit more people when it exclusively suits you will always feel like oppression. In reality it is letting others enjoy the privilege that you already enjoy

          • Franklin@lemmy.world
            11·
            1 year ago

            Night shifts are the only night owl specific concession and society as a whole of very much does not run like that. Flexible work schedules are the outlier by a wide margin.

            Still glad to see it improving

      • Johanno@feddit.de
        10·
        1 year ago

        So if I set my alarm earlier than I will turn it off and wait for my emergency alarm to go off.

        I should got into bed earlier: well it might work but I am just not tired then. If I go to bed at 10 or 11 pm I will just stay awake for hours in my bed.

        Luckily I have wfh and don’t have to attend meetings before 10 am. Sometimes I get out of bed 10 minutes before 10 and I still feel tired.

    • ScrotesforGoats@lemmy.world
      8·
      1 year ago

      I’m a night owl and a morning person who works on a farm/cattle ranch. I had a 27 hour shift for the first time last month and I was kind of ecstatic about it. I felt proud when I got home and crashed. I also have a lot of willpower though so it’s easy for me to push through work stuff with very few freaks.

      I guess this is my way of saying that everyone is different.

  • Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social
    81·
    1 year ago

    When they all got together to decide what kind of civilization to have, all the slackers slept in. That’s why we have to work before noon.

    • pomodoro_longbreak@sh.itjust.works
      10·
      1 year ago

      Damn if I actually did anything productive when I was night owling, I would suggest we take it back, but I’m still working my way through Baldur’s Gate III

  • february@lemmy.sdf.org
    61·
    1 year ago

    As an early person I think night owls have it better in some ways, yeah work can start early but if you want to do anything “cool” it’s always late at night. Wish they’d do more daytime concerts and stuff

    • CoolMatt@lemmy.world
      13·
      1 year ago

      Early bird here, am alwaya tired by 9PM, don’t even wanna go out on Saturday nights any more.

    • MisterFrog@lemmy.world
      9·
      1 year ago

      I’m with you on this. Dance socials always starting at like 10PM, like could we not have done this earlier?

    • Classy@sh.itjust.works
      5·
      1 year ago

      When I get off work, I have a good 7 hours of daylight, all the stores are still open, I can take a nap without ruining my sleep, I have plenty of time to play with my kid. I’m very cool with going to bed at 9-10 if that’s the tradeoff.

    • pirat@lemmy.world
      2·
      1 year ago

      If you like loud, raw techno music and darkness, you could go for a morning party at Tresor in Berlin when the tourists are gone (and only the most dedicated heads are still there). I went there recently from ~6AM till 12 noon, and had a really great time. However, I’m no early bird myself; I had been awake in the streets through the night, but didn’t go to Tresor until the afterhours. I believe less than 30 people were there along with me, everybody respecting each other doing their thing and enjoying the experience. No idea if that’s a good way to start your day though?

    • TheRealLinga@sh.itjust.works
      4·
      1 year ago

      Ah, a fellow neitheriser! If I didn’t have kids I’d be asleep… not like I’m doing anything but sit on my couch and remind them to get to the bus. Sweet bed is calling…

  • viralJ@lemmy.world
    38·
    1 year ago

    I’m a morning lark, but this annoys me so much! People should be able to work whenever the F they’re at their most productive, not when morning larks decided everyone should be.

      • viralJ@lemmy.world
        1·
        1 year ago

        Luckily I work for a great company where the culture is generally “we don’t care when you do your work as long as you do it”, so I don’t have many larks around me with that flawed mindset anymore. But I do emphasize it when I get the chance!

  • Vlyn@lemmy.zipEnglish
    36·
    1 year ago

    I’m not sure how much is really genetics vs behavior/environment. I’m a night owl too, if I can on weekends I’m up till after midnight or into the early hours. But that’s because I’m playing games, sit in front of PC displays, look at my phone and so on (and still feel like shit the next day obviously, no matter how long I sleep).

    But if I force myself to go to bed early a few days in a row, which I’ve only done a few times so far, I suddenly wake up a minute before my alarm goes off, even early in the morning.

    So I’m not sure if there’s actually so many night owls around, or if this is just an issue of not moving enough and having artificial light sources all around you in the evening (with plenty of screen usage). To get up early in the morning you have to go into bed early, it doesn’t work otherwise. And to go to bed early you have to stick to a schedule, otherwise it’s like jet lag, if I go to bed every day after midnight then obviously I’ll have a difficult time falling asleep at 10 p.m. the one time I actually try to.

    • Sunfoil@lemmy.world
      9·
      1 year ago

      I was in the Army and getting up early is the thing. Up at 0530 every morning. It was very difficult for me and I had to put a lot of effort into discipline and routine to not die of sleep deprivation. I’m a massive night owl, 0300 every night if I could. It’s definitely a component of genetics not just environment. I agree though, most people are strung out on caffeine, staring at their unfiltered computer screens at 0200 after not doing any exercise that week and wondering why they have sleep problems. Diet, light, and exercise have a massive impact on sleep.

    • Lightor@lemmy.world
      8·
      1 year ago

      This idea that you can change anything about yourself with enough diet, exercise, and will power totally ignores all the science saying some of this is just genetics/biology. You don’t have to wonder how much of it is genetics, there are studies.

      Yes, some people are just lazy, for sure. But there are some people who will work 12 hour days, no problem, they just don’t want to get up early, it’s hard for them. That’s not lazy, that’s just being different. It would be like telling someone they need to sleep from 9pm to 11am and if you can’t you just need to try harder. There is nuance.

      • SpiderShoeCult@sopuli.xyz
        3·
        1 year ago

        I also manage to wake up before my alarm clock with 1-30 minutes (achieved via programming), with alarm times varying from 5.30 am to 7 am depending on what needs doing that day, but it’s still physically painful and mentally unpleasant. I’m basically running on autopilot until about noon. Oddly enough, if I manage to get a decent amount of sleep and wake up at something like 2 am, it’s awesome, but falling asleep at 5-6 in the afternoon is slightly difficult.

        I cannot remember a single instance in my whole life when I woke up in the morning and thought ‘heh, fully rested and full of energy. what a wonderful morning!’. I cannot understand people able to get up earlier and do stuff like go running, before work. Hell, I shower at night to save time in the morning (and because getting into bed full of day-stuff is just icky). Going on holidays is also mildly unpleasant because hotels usually offer breakfast up to 10 am (11 in the weekend). I wish they’d offer brunch as well.

      • Vlyn@lemmy.zipEnglish
        2·
        1 year ago

        Absolutely, but most of the time humans are very very similar. For example take the whole “fast metabolism” crap, the real difference is like 100-150 kcal a day. That’s one slice of toast pretty much.

        If you look at the past we didn’t have (much) artificial light. Humans were up during sunlight and went to bed when it got dark. With an hour or two of fucking in the middle of the night before sleeping again.

        Just based on biology it makes zero sense for someone to be a pure night owl (as in being mostly awake at night). A few hours of time shift? Sure, I can see that. But our main problem is modern living, artificial lights, too much stimulation in the evening, not enough movement, …

        If you cut someone off from all artificial light I’d bet you they’d go to bed earlier on their own.

          • Vlyn@lemmy.zipEnglish
            1·
            1 year ago

            I’m not saying they don’t exist, I’m saying that there’s plenty of people who aren’t genetically night owls, but still stay up late due to a modern lifestyle and then claim they are night owls.

            Our modern sleeping schedules are fucked between artificial light, caffeine, stress, day rythms based on a clock and not daylight, 24/7 entertainment and stimuli, …

            So just because someone tends to stay up late doesn’t mean they’re a genuine night owl.

    • HiramFromTheChi@lemmy.world
      18·
      1 year ago

      From the studies I’ve read, this seems to be the case across the entire school system, not just university. If anything, it might even affect K-12 even more, since, the younger we are, the more sleep we need.

      Nevertheless, I had my most challenging class 8am my freshman year of college and yeah, can confirm—it was horrific.

      In retrospect, maybe it didn’t help that I was out partying til 3am every day too, but that’s a different story… (Jp, I was actually very diligent about it, but still couldn’t crack the formula. It was simply too early.)

      • Kythtrid@sh.itjust.works
        7·
        1 year ago

        For all of middle school, I would to wake up at 4:30 to catch the bus that arrived anytime between 5:30 and 6:25 to get to school at 7:15. And i wonder why my sleep is so fucked today, and why I was always too tired to focus on anything back then.

  • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
    27·
    1 year ago

    Look, I can’t help it. The dogs wake me up at 4 every day and I can’t train them out of it and once I’m awake, I can’t get back to sleep.

    I wish I wasn’t a morning person. I really wish I could sleep in on the weekends. Alas, fate had naughty dogs in store for me.

      • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
        6·
        1 year ago

        My dogs are very stubborn and very stupid. One of them failed training. The other one can’t even learn to sit.

        • Lt_Cdr_Data@discuss.tchncs.de
          8·
          1 year ago

          Definitely a you-problem. There don’t exist a dog too stupid to learn to sit on command. Them barking to wake you up continues to happen, because you allowed it to work in the first place.

          If a dog barks and sees you raise… well of course they’ll continue that behaviour in the future, if it’s successful.

    • mack7400@lemmy.worldEnglish
      3·
      1 year ago

      I hear you. I’m an insufferable morning person, but my son goes harder and is almost always up before sunrise.

      • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
        2·
        1 year ago

        Honestly, I’m so used to it at this point that I kind of look forward to quiet time when I can just sit with the naughty little dog in my lap and read the news, check forums, etc. before work.

        • Stumblinbear@pawb.social
          5·
          1 year ago

          Here’s rhe secret: that’s why night people like the night too

          Turns out people generally just don’t do anything in the morning or night and whichever one you choose doesn’t really make much difference

    • Manifish_Destiny@lemmy.world
      14·
      1 year ago

      That’s what I have. Then suddenly with RTO I get dirty looks for finishing my sprint tasks much faster than my coworkers so I have to pretend to be busy for hours. Fuuuuuck that bullshit.

      • OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml
        4·
        1 year ago

        I used to play this balance, but it’s honestly just as much effort to work hard as it is to pretend to work. Instead, I work throughout my work hours, and built the trust to have flexibility when needed.