And apparently, also when you think that ‘They’ is a perfectly serviceable gender-neutral singular pronoun, but are willing to use other pronouns if asked to.
EDIT: Other removable offenses on Blahaj now include questioning mod/admin decisions and quoting the modlog as a reason why you’re leaving.
I think that account is a social experiment designed to see how fucking bizarre of a line of bullshit can they force down other people’s throats
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hmm interesting
Anon is at it again?
AlwaysHasBeen.jpg
Yeah, they’ve kinda lost the point.
Don’t know that it’s power tripping because it’s a matter of whether or not you believe that neopronouns are or are not part of trans rights and trans issues. If you do, then they’re maintaining their space as a place for trans and trans adjacent folks to not have to deal with the bullshit of constantly defending and fighting for every single thing.
So I get it. Once you believe that, and you’re maintaining a space for trans people, you absolutely have to draw that line.
I don’t agree with it, but that’s not the point. It doesn’t matter if I agree or not. It only matters that blahaj is a trans space first and above anything else, and they do buy into neopronouns.
They’ve also bought into protecting a couple of trolls because of that, but that’s the down side.
But, yeah, it’s a fucking mess when you can’t even use a broadly accepted neutral term as the default until you have a specific one. Which, being real, keeping track of random online user names and their choice of pronouns just isn’t worth it. Why the fuck should anyone bother?
Irl? Absolutely. You’ve got faces to connect things to. But online, with people that are essentially acquaintances at best, how the fuck are you going to remember that doggyboy19 is the one that uses xexu, but puppyboy18 uses xenu? My dyslexic ass already has enough trouble keeping track of the user names that don’t have partterns that match established words. Neopronouns amount to a random string of lines and circles to me, there’s no fucking pattern to memorize at all, there’s nothing I can use to keep track of them.
Which is going off the topic of your post here, but it’s one of the reasons “they” is a shit ton better. You don’t have dyslexics, people with English as a second or third language trying to have a nice conversation and being treated like an asshole because they can’t follow the randomly chosen garbles used by some of the more absurd neopronoun folks.
English is my second language, i still kinda understand neopronouns.
Didn’t say they can’t be understood.
Just going to drop this here, it seems relevant.
The effect created by such Internet trolls is not very big, but they manage to make certain forums meaningless because people stop commenting on the articles when these trolls sit there and constantly create an aggressive, hostile atmosphere toward those whom they don’t like. The trolls react to certain news with torrents of mud and abuse. This makes it meaningless for a reasonable person to comment on anything there.
I think there are some people here who have become kung fu masters at the art of straddling the line of acceptable behavior, so that they can remain on the network making everyone’s life unpleasant and bringing nothing of value, while still having a passably plausible claim that they “have a right to be here.” It carries the added bonus of creating division between different factions because some people stick up for them. They’ve often figured out that agglomerating onto tribal hot-buttons like veganism or trans rights is a great way to get knee-jerk support from other members, or at least hesitation to be too quick to ban them, so they can continue to overstay their welcome.
The issue is just how “free” speech should be, also sometimes referred to as the Nazi bar effect. By allowing all types of “freedom”, others feel not free anymore to speak up, for fear of what will ensue.
Edit: and I thought it was obvious but to make extra clear, it’s also called the paradox of intolerance - somehow allowing people unlimited freedom to speak results in less people being willing to do so.
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Protected and managed to set a precedent to protect anyone who wants to follow their mockery.
Christ. It’s like that person who was ‘droneself’ and insisted on that early during the Reddit-Lemmy exodus.
I also think dronerights (dronegender/swarmgender), grail (goddessgender), and drag (dragonrider /dragonfucker) are the same person. Hexbear has been calling this out for a while now, it’s how I even know about these users. There’s other users they also think are alts like mindtraveler and pm me fat enbies. Blajah bends over backwards to protect them until they do something so offensive for so long that they are banned and the bit continues in another account. Some of the accounts claim to suffer from NPD. I don’t know what to make of it other than I try to ignore them.
Honestly, I don’t even find the poster themselves that annoying. As many noted, you can just block them, and I rarely see drag in my circles anyway. It’s the reaction from the admins, and some of the users, that turned me away. What a shitshow.
This makes a bunch of sense. I wonder if there’s a way to stick post timestamps into a spreadsheet and compare those accounts.
Wild that hexbear is the good guy here. I’ve never heard a single good thing about them outside of this lol
!art@hexbear.net is pretty good.
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Look through the modlogs. Some mods believe the account is an alt of the same troll. If true, we’ve learned nothing and have failed to secure Lemmy from the same basic threat.
I enjoy a good troll. When the entire account is just trolling and I’m fed up with it, I can just block it.
I also do a little troll here and there for teh lulz and I’d hate to get banned for some weird humor like calling the “South China Sea” the “West Philippine Sea”.
It be super useful having a shared block list like AdBlockers across all social media. Certainly make things a lot more pleasant.
PieFed is working on building such a thing automatically: https://join.piefed.social/2024/06/22/piefed-features-for-growing-healthy-communities/, although instead of blocking it puts a label next to the username.
Thanks for the heads up I’ll have to take a look.
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Who, OP?
The well known troll op was originally talking about.
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admin makes a post saying they will enforce the rules around banning people who refuse to use neo pronouns, in a meta community for trans people, and every cis loser has to jump in and play the victim when they get banned for breaking the rules in the post was made to say the rules would be enforced. cry harder.
All these posts are from 196, not the meta comm.
I see my mistake but also this wasn’t very clear where it was posted originally.
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Wild that you’ve just ascribed she/her pronouns to drag, that’s definitely a weird level of transmisogyny.
I don’t know if Drag is serious, but I do know they demonstrate the shallow, insincere progressivism of liberals just by existing.
…they demonstrate the shallow, insincere progressivism of liberals
What are you talking about? How is this even related?
Buy Why Male Models?
It’s wild how many people seem to have ascribed things to this one creature that just don’t seem to reflect reality. Like the number of folks saying drag doesn’t accept other pronouns, when I’ve literally seen drag on multiple occasions saying they/them are okay if you can’t work out drag’s neopronouns. Just that they aren’t drag’s preferred pronouns.
D-did, Drag try to fuck you?
I don’t think so?
Let’s not go to blahaj, tis a silly place.
I agree with the mods on this one. You don’t go into people’s spaces and tell them they’re living wrong unless they’re actively hurting other people. And at the end of the day, using a different word as a pronoun isn’t going to hurt you. Heck if you have an app you can just tag them with it.
Using a different word as a pronoun does no harm at all. Requiring that other people gender you properly is perfectly reasonable. Demanding that other people go along with calling you a dragon, and whining about it in ways that cause needless drama if they don’t, does do harm.
This whole issue has absolutely nothing to do with trans rights. The right to tell someone who you think is being ridiculous, that they’re being ridiculous, is an important right on an open communications network. Infringe on that right, and your network suddenly isn’t a good place to be anymore, because people will have their conversations non-consensually interfered with by patently ridiculous stuff which they won’t be permitted to say anything back to. On a network where quite literally the only available currency is words, that is a significant loss.
The conversations will be fine. I’ve had quite a few with drag and nothing has ever interrupted us. You’re literally making up reasons to be outraged by someone’s identity.
its not the pronouns. its the excuse to behave in a manner which is tyrannical and using made up pronouns to shield you from any criticism.
these places get to a point where inclusivity becomes weaponized. “if you’re not immediately accepting of my specific demands, you’re transphobic. don’t dare ask questions. Cis scum only does that.”
there’s a fairly obvious line between the two. and this seems pretty apparently an attempt to use othergender stuff in a way to control others.
That’s not it. All pronouns are made up. There are people out there right now using Xe/Xim and they’re accepted. If you change languages the words change there too. Identity is consistently a big deal in the trans space, as seen by dead naming and conservative jokes about pronouns.
So we don’t get to make that decision anymore and honestly it’s the easiest thing in the world. They aren’t controlling me by telling me to use their pronouns, for example I can still tell them they’re wrong on an issue, I can still walk away, I can still take an ad out telling the world that person has a bad take, I can still ignore them or let them live rent free in my head. Saying pronouns control other people is ridiculous. The only thing they control is the identity of the person using them.
read what I said again. its not the pronouns. its using them as a way to weaponize what is and isn’t acceptable.
“This person dared to ask a question about how I identify myself, they’re a terf for even asking!”
“This person said Fae creatures aren’t real! i am angry at them, BAN!”
if you accept these two above examples as good and logical, then we will never agree. and frankly, defending those who behave in such a manner makes a larger divide between those that are trans or othergender and those that aren’t.
people are allowed to ask questions and try and clarify what they don’t understand. and having to remember specific pronouns for every individual on an internet forum is a completely unacceptable thing to ask.
That’s not even remotely what happened. They refused to use the pronouns after being told what they were. Which is something a Terf would do, since you brought the term up.
its not reasonable to assume everyone will just do what you want because you want it. those kinds of pronouns are not ones based in reality.
that doesnt make them terfs. it just means they disagree with you. disagreeing with someone is not a capital offense.
Walks like a terf, talks like a terf… Is threatened by other people’s self description like a terf. Oh no, watch out the word is going to bite you!
in one ear and out the other, I see. best of luck.
“This person said Fae creatures aren’t real! i am angry at them, BAN!”
When said in regards to not wanting to use a person’s preferred pronouns, yes that is a bad-faith argument. And, while I don’t agree with everything Ada does (or has done here), she is dedicated to making a safe space for her users with one of the rules being that you are to respect pronouns no matter what.
Also, I’m feeling more and more like Drag is dronerights, who was definitely a troll, but that will not make me use the wrong pronouns for Drag, and not necessarily for Drag’s sake but for the sake of anyone who feels better using neopronouns. In a discussion about this post on Hexbear, a user talked about how worried hy was asking for them to be included on the list. Even if Drag is a troll, there are people out there who are not and want these things.
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Yeah. The benefit of the decentralized fediverse is that individual smaller communities can enforce standards like this that may be unreasonable to enforce on something much larger-scale.
You’re allowed to vehemently disagree with my lifestyle choices and think that what I do and say is dumb and stupid. And there are environments where discourse calling me out for what you think is stupid is welcome. But clearly, blahaj is not that space. Most of the internet is a space where those who use neopronouns have to fairly constantly defend their use of them, and blahaj seems to have been created very specifically to be a place where such constant vigilance is unnecessary for their users.
YDI.
gatekeeping sure is when you tell someone their gender isn’t real. especially under a post that specifically says “hey don’t tell people their gender isn’t real.”
edit: removing my comments below because the discussion is no longer about respecting trans identities and is just a slapfight. fuck transphobes and get over yourselves on a single tiny user who you should have blocked months ago if you actually had a problem.
gatekeeping sure is when you tell someone their gender isn’t real. especially under a post that specifically says “hey don’t tell people their gender isn’t real.”
Their claimed gender is literally a dragon.
Dragons aren’t real.
Dragons.
Aren’t.
Real.
sounds like you and the other user will find more fulfillment in other communities than one that is specifically created to be trans accepting. i’m sorry that this user who was exhibiting trollish behavior was your first experience with a person who uses neopronouns. i hope you can come to a point of greater understanding in the future.
This isn’t my first experience with people using neopronouns, and I explicitly stated a willingness to use neopronouns.
edit: removing my comments below because the discussion is no longer about respecting trans identities and is just a slapfight. fuck transphobes and get over yourselves on a single tiny user who you should have blocked months ago if you actually had a problem.
You’re engaging in an online community that’s become so insular and self-absorbed that it’s become indistinguishable from parody. You’re literally defending dragonfucker as a gender, and furthermore saying that questioning any identity is inherently unacceptable.
Get help.
Literally all genders are made up, why are you getting so bent outta shape over a totally reasonable rule just because one person who stands to benefit from it is kinda annoying???
Literally all genders are made up
Gravity is just made up too. Doesn’t mean I’m going to take someone preaching intelligent falling seriously.
why are you getting so bent outta shape over a totally reasonable rule just because one person who stands to benefit from it is kinda annoying???
Look, if you want to have your fantasy roleplay where dragonfucker is a gender, that’s on you. Like I said in the message I was removed for, I’m no longer participating in Blahaj. You have fun with your faeries and dragons.
You don’t get to complain about other people trolling when you are being this deliberately obtuse.
Gravity is in the most literal sense a force of nature. It has had measurable effects since pretty much the dawn of time. Gender is a social construct. The only effects it has on the world around us is that which we as a society allow it to, and in the absence of any people who believe in such a concept it would cease to exist in any meaningful sense.
Nobody is sincerely claiming that dragons, as in the mythological creatures, actually exist in material reality. By adopting dragonfucker/rider as a gender identity, drag is aligning with the concept of them in some kinda nebulous social sense I’m not gonna pretend to understand.
Maybe drag’s trolling about it, but to be honest, I really couldn’t give a shit about the specifics of Dragon Rider’s identity one way or the other because I think drag’s an insufferable shit-stirrer. What really pisses me off here though is that you’ve actually made me care about this because in spending all day bitching about how drag’s a shit-stirring troll, you have engaged in precisely the behaviour that can make drag such a… drag.
“Gravity is just made up too.”
I apologize profusely for taking this argument seriously. The internet was a mistake; turn it off and leave it unplugged 😭
“Gravity is just made up too.”
Yes, it’s made up, just like the entire concept of physics and species are as well. Science is a social construct. That doesn’t mean it has no relation to reality.
might as well take a blowtorch to the wires while we’re at it
Gravity is in the most literal sense a force of nature. It has had measurable effects since pretty much the dawn of time.
Gravity is just a made-up word applied to a made-up concept used by human beings to understand the universe around them in terms they find palatable.
Like gender.
Gender is a social construct. The only effects it has on the world around us is that which we as a society allow it to, and in the absence of any people who believe in such a concept it would cease to exist in any meaningful sense.
Gender labels are social constructs, just like the concept of gravity is a social construct. Gender is an extremely complex phenomenon with biological roots. Trans folk don’t just get HRT for funsies.
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Wrong right off the bat. Go and read any of drag’s comments describing their gender and report back. Drag has said consistently said something quite different from what you falsely claim so I am curious as to who/what muddled your reading.
Because drag uses first person neopronouns. Drag’s drag/dragself pronouns are person independent. They’re inflected and conjugated the same way in all grammatical persons. They represent drag’s identity as a dragon rider.
Drag rides dragons and also “rides” dragons
Drag, being straight, is attracted to the opposite gender; dragons. Everyone who tells you their sexuality is giving the same information drag just gave you, but with the details changed.
And even if you were correct in your assertion, it still wouldn’t give an excuse to misgender. Besides they/them, one of the most common GNC expressions are fae pronouns, while fairies of course don’t exist either. Are you aware of this, and of the parallels with the identity you are disparaging?
‘Fae’ as a cutesy neopronoun I have no problem with. Anyone who identifies as literally one of the fae folk?
Yes, that I do have a problem with.
…which you, each time, follow with “your gender isn’t real, because [you are trolling/XYZ isn’t real].” Same invalidating behavior.
“Your gender isn’t real, because what you’re claiming literally isn’t real nor possible for any human being to be.”
Like, holy fucking shit, should I go and take back every time I criticized the conservative ‘joke’ denigrating trans folk of “I identify as an attack helicopter hurr” because that’s now perfectly valid?
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I suppose I’ve been reading it wrong, I would’ve sworn that somewhere it was said that they were a dragon and a dragon ‘rider’. In either case, the essential problem remains that dragons are not real, and they are asserting that dragons are real as part of their gender identity. Again…
“Your gender isn’t real, because what you’re claiming literally isn’t real nor possible for any human being to be.”
I ask again
Like, holy fucking shit, should I go and take back every time I criticized the conservative ‘joke’ denigrating trans folk of “I identify as an attack helicopter hurr” because that’s now perfectly valid?
It was on their profile. I’m not going to bother to see if it’s still there.
Doesn’t bother me. If it did, I’d block them. I actually found the whole thing a rather entertaining spectacle of flavor. I’m a middle age cis white guy. If you want to be called tuba, or tata, or whatever, I don’t care. If you use a foreign language like Chinese or Arabic I dislike my own ignorance and inability to understand, but I still respect the person’s decision.
Ultimately language rules are only a loose correlation based on use and culture. Rules and norms do not create language or cultures, people do. I only see people resisting the patently unfamiliar. “Dragonfucker” or any other pronoun is no different to me than a nickname. If something so simple is able to make just one person feel a little better about their life for a few moments, I’m happy to oblige. The Hippocratic aphorism “first do no harm” does not appear violated in my opinion. If annoyed, block them.
Yeah I will use preferred pronouns for people and users I respect when referring to them. It, xim, drag, doesn’t matter.
My contentious take is that using “they/them” in place of the preferred pronoun is not misgendering. I will use it to refer to people identifying as women, men, non-binary, or anything else, it should be neutral. I try to be inclusive as a best effort, and for all intents and purposes treat them as my equal. However, I’m not on a “nickname” basis with everyone and will just block if their asks become not worth my time.
I’ll disagree on that, but it’s complicated. I’m a trans woman that’s semi passing. When I’m dressed even remotely androgynous or if I haven’t told a person irl that my pronouns are she/her, or even if I think they may have forgotten then I don’t consider it misgendering. But sometimes people are clearly refusing to address me with feminine pronouns, despite me having told them several times, presenting myself femininely, and them correctly gendering the cis and cis passing women near me.
I see using they/them as choosing not to engage with gender at all, so I cannot fathom a circumstance in which it would be misgendering to use such pronouns. If the argument against is that someone in refusing to address one by their preferred gender, I can see some merit in that position, but ultimately I believe one cannot force another to engage with them in terms of gender.
Now, if one were to intentionally use masculine pronouns to refer to someone who wishes to be addressed in feminine or nonbinary terms, of course that meets the definition of active misgendering. But I believe anyone has the right to simply refuse to interact with another with regards to gender by using common, nongendered pronouns respectfully.
It’s a form of refusing to accept my gender as I say it. You’re welcome to it, I won’t seek to have you arrested for it or anything but if you call all cis people by their gender and all trans people by the neutral I will choose to not interact with you as possible because you aren’t acknowledging my gender
There is some nuance to it, when someone is obviously trying to avoid addressing you in the same way you make the effort to address someone else, that is a sign of lesser respect.
Otherwise I hold the same view as lemonmelon described.
Pretty much agreed with you here
Fuck them.
I think essentially, we call people what they want to be called out of respect. Even if it seems ridiculous.
Also “drag” as a pronoun confuses me I just think of drag shows. Ironic?
We really need to stop complaining about the pronouns shit, the real problem with dragonfucker isn’t with the preferred pronouns, it’s the fact that dragonfucker is known to harass individuals who call them out on their trolling or sealioning or disagree with them in any way they can’t spin as aggressive or hateful.
I was harassed by an alt of this person because I called them out for their behavior when they decided to make a public attack post on me (now deleted) because I preemptively banned their user account and “spouse” account from communities I moderated for trolling, sealioning, and bad faith arguments.
I clarified that politely and reasonably and also properly contacted pawb.social’s admins (since the mentions in their comment weren’t done properly) and the following response was to create @draconicistransphobc@discuss.online and create !fuckdraconicneo@discuss.online and start spamming it with abusive content attempting to defame, humiliate, intimidate, or even just scare me. That account also sent me porn in my DMs and made rude insults towards me. I was also told to kill myself and also sent death threats, including an invitation for admins to give out my IP address so I could be hunted down and tortured.
I’m almost certain that dragonfucker is the one who did this since it happened immediately after the post which was made on !meta@pawb.social complaining about the bans, and also there were many slip-ups by that account which indicated it was an alt belonging to dragonfucker. Unfortunately beyond that dragonfucker likely did a good job at covering their tracks, or Lemmy just sucks at identifying people, probably both, but I’m confident enough that I’d be willing to bet real money it was dragonfucker, the circumstances are way too suspicious.
Edit:
Here are some of the messages and comment mentions from the alt account mentioned in the post, fair warning, they’re not pleasant. Pornographic imagery has been censored.
CW: Abusive content, threats, suicide encouragement, harassment
A lot of contextual information for these isn’t here, to get it the admins of pawb.social and discuss.online would need to be contacted as the content and user accounts associated have been banned.
Jesus Christ yeah that’s a lot worse than whatever OP is whining about
Yeah it’s way worse, the pronoun thing that people are whining about isn’t even an actual issue. This type of extreme aggression absolutely is. And even though these offenses were committed on an alt and can’t exactly be concretely proven, dragonfucker has committed other offenses on the dragonfucker@lemmy.nz main account, like encouraging trans people to commit murder-suicide and harassment of user and moderator @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world (something I watched happen in front of me). Dragonfucker is a bad person and it’s really upsetting and concerning that most people don’t understand why, instead just complaining about neopronouns.
I’ve seen pawb around enough to recognize the name. Detached from reality or trolling. IDK. I’m totally guilty of rapping the glass.
I think the only neo pronoun I know is xe/xir, even then I don’t know why you would use it above they/them
Some people don’t care for ‘they/them’ as singular neutral because they’re used to it as plural.
Some people want a pronoun(s) specifically for NB identities, rather than a purely neutral pronoun.
These are both valid, if contentious, points.
I don’t know about that first one, actually. Lots of people are used to objectively wrong or bad things, doesn’t mean those things are somehow right or good.
We define language by its usage, and there is definitely a significant subset of native English speakers who regard the usage of singular they as wrong.
I mean, they’re WRONG, but I can only say so from the perspective of a fellow speaker according to my own thoughts and preferences; language doesn’t have an objective arbiter and I acknowledge that it is both widespread and not some inherently absurd notion.
There are a few others. Many are somewhat historical from before the singular they was agreed as default
I mean, if I were somebody who wanted to make the resistance against the nazis weak, this is exactly the kind of bullshit I might think to do. I’m not saying that’s why this is going on. Just that there’s no reason to rule it out.
I think it’s also pretty relevant that dragonfucker has multiple times said that if you’re feeling suicidal, then you should instead get a gun and start shooting Trump supporters.
If you’re planning on killing yourself, go buy a gun and take a red hat with you. Drag is serious. Get out if you can. Move to another country. But if you’re actually hopeless, and there’s nothing anyone can say to dissuade you… Then make it count.
https://lemmy.nz/modlog?page=1&actionType=All&userId=12587481
if you’re feeling suicidal, then you should instead get a gun and start shooting Trump supporters.
I disagree with them about “dragon fucker” being a gender (I think people have started using “gender” as a synonym for any aspect of identity, and I find that annoying). I think they’re making a correct utility assessment.
Can you clarify what you mean by that, please?
Edit: I’m going to assume that it probably means what I think it means. I reported the comment for advocacy of murder/suicide.
I don’t think that it’s good to kill oneself, and I think doing neither thing is better than doing both. Sorry, the comment was made when I was falling asleep and poorly phrased. I was considering that depression causes one to not wish to do anything and so giving someone a difficult goal is a good way to avert it long enough for them to get the help they need.
I was considering that depression causes one to not wish to do anything and so giving someone a difficult goal is a good way to avert it long enough for them to get the help they need.
In my experience, most people who are suicidal want, more than anything else, just a way out. They have desperation for some way to release what they’re feeling and not have to go through it anymore. Painting a picture of one, and telling them that they can make it all count for something and then it’ll all be over, is one of the darkest and most fucked-up things I’ve ever seen on the internet in all my time here. So no, I don’t agree with your analysis.
As a side note, I also don’t see any connection at all between “correct utility assessment” and what you just said.
I also don’t see any connection at all between “correct utility assessment” and what you just said.
Okay. Actions have positive utility or negative utility based on the results. Telling someone to do something bad is bad if they actually do the bad thing. If by telling them to do the bad thing you just stop them from doing a different bad thing, then the action of telling them to do the bad thing can have positive utility even if the proposed action has negative utility.
Gatekeeping whether dragonfucker is a gender is a weird hill to die for. Perhaps equally odd is permabanning for it.
Not featured is the key piece of information. Blahaj is specifically a trans safe space. Pronouns are kind of a big deal in that community. Telling them they aren’t really LGBTQ unless you approve of their pronouns is not going to go over well.
It would be, if that were what happened. What actually happened is someone on a trans instance with a non-binary identity (who, i might note, had the username dragonfucker, afaict extending that term to drag’s gender identity is an embellishment) uses neopronouns, some people got butthurt about it and argued with drag about drag’s identity being “real”, and the admin rightfully drew a line in the sand about misgendering people.
The tl;dr is this dude got told not to intentionally misgender people whether he thinks someone’s identity is valid or not, and he lost his shit over not being allowed to gatekeep queer people on a queer instance and left of his own accord.
accurate analysis
