• FreshLight@sh.itjust.works
        2·
        7 months ago

        Fuck, that’s such a damn good quote.

        Both points, being A: Controlling the population when they are already adult and B: Controlling the population by raising them “correct”, are equally valid, though. Imo

    • AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world
      43·
      7 months ago

      The number of apparently utterly batshit insane potential criminals that are only held in check (barely) by religion in the US is quite disturbing.

      • Socsa@sh.itjust.works
        36·
        7 months ago

        The reality is that they aren’t held in check. Rural crime is widely underreported because cops in the boonies won’t take a report about domestic violence unless it involves a trip to the hospital

        • braxy29@lemmy.world
          10·
          7 months ago

          unfortunately, this is often true in big cities as well.

          things are a lot better in that regard than they used to be. dv is no longer by default regarded as a “private matter,” laws and resources have improved.

          on the flip side, dv can be hard to prove, especially to a busy cop or judge. and policing is also not a profession averse to abusers.

          edit typo

    • Otkaz@lemmy.world
      34·
      7 months ago

      As an atheist I can’t tell you how many Christians have asked me why I don’t just rape and murder people if I don’t believe in hell. Tells me everything I need to know about that POS.

    • NutWrench@lemmy.world
      16·
      7 months ago

      Agreed. If the only that stops some people from committing crimes is the threat of supernatural punishment, then they have the morality of an insect.

  • SturgiesYrFase@lemmy.ml
    102·
    7 months ago

    I always hate that argument. Why be a decent human without the threat of eternal damnation? I mean that threat doesn’t seem to stop a vast number of religious people from being unbelievably cruel to their fellow humans, so…

    • magic_lobster_party@kbin.run
      29·
      7 months ago

      If anything, it just used as justification for bad behavior. “My genocide is completely justified. It’s what God wanted!”

    • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldOPM
      20·
      7 months ago

      There are also plenty of good people in places with religions that have afterlives but not hell or any threat of eternal punishment.

    • TheDoozer@lemmy.world
      17·
      7 months ago

      Religion doesn’t stop a bad person from being evil. It can convince a bad person they’re still good (better!) when they do evil.

      And good people don’t need religion to do good. But it can make them overlook the evil of other religious people and protect them, making them bad.

      The best-case scenario is that religion can have no effect on how good or bad someone is. Good people stay good despite religion, not because of it.

      • KevonLooney@lemm.ee
        5·
        7 months ago

        The main issue is that religion is something that makes you feel better when you have emotional pain, like a loved one dying. Like any painkiller, it has a purpose and if you abuse it you can deaden your response to actual issues that need your attention.

        Originally Christianity was mostly about helping the poor, sick, dying, etc. That genuinely makes you feel better about yourself. Judaism has a lot of references to remaining strong in the face of adversity. Religions are just mental tools. What you do with that tool is up to you. If you hurt other people, it’s your fault.

        • TheDoozer@lemmy.world
          2·
          7 months ago

          Please don’t misunderstand. I was not saying that that was the be-all-end-all of religion. I wasn’t speaking against religion in general, just in regards to the irony of suggesting that religion makes people more good. At all.

    • ShieldGengar@sh.itjust.works
      10·
      7 months ago

      I don’t. It tells you, in clear language, the type of person that this “loving Christian” is. They literally can’t imagine altruism, and that says more about them than what they think they’re saying about me.

      • dudinax@programming.dev
        4·
        7 months ago

        That kind of person is revealing an innate sense of right and wrong that’s independent of their teachings. You should fear the Christian who’s envious of your disbelief in hell.

      • deadbeef79000@lemmy.nz
        2·
        7 months ago

        It also tells you they only care for the Christian tribal identity, not the actual teachings of Christ.

        To be Christian is to be like Christ, not… whatever the hell these people think they are.

    • hungryphrog
      1·
      7 months ago

      Yep. Even though I’m not an atheist, I still don’t understand this argument. I’m a good person (or at least try to be) for the sake of being a good person, because I don’t need to be threathened with eternal damnation in order to not murder people.

  • Furbag@lemmy.world
    67·
    7 months ago

    People who say they are only good because of the threat of eternal damnation are literal psychopaths.

    • Ulvain@sh.itjust.works
      15·
      7 months ago

      It seriously feels good to see this written down sometimes. I hate that religion somehow laid claim to morality.

    • dariusj18@lemmy.world
      9·
      7 months ago

      My rebuttal to this is (they usually include murder as the bad thing being done), “Are you telling me fear of hell is the only thing keeping you from murdering me right now? Says a lot more about your morals than mine.”

    • niktemadur@lemmy.world
      4·
      7 months ago

      Maybe, just maybe, also because that may have been the way to get some impulsive but simple-minded people to not make a mess for those around them. Didn’t work with everyone, though. If it ever did, with anyone.

      Also, it seems shockingly easy to get some people to commit evil acts as they think they are doing good… and that usually comes carrying a lot of religious ideology and/or methodology, curiously enough.

      • MonkderDritte@feddit.de
        2·
        7 months ago

        Yeah, it can be easily influenced. See Stanford prisoner experiment. Religion can be an influence too, but religios people can’t imagine a life without it.

  • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
    46·
    7 months ago

    “Why even be good if there’s no heaven?”

    They are actually absolutely right. Because I don’t believe in heaven, I’m exactly as evil as I want to be

  • SuddenDownpour@sh.itjust.works
    45·
    7 months ago

    Virgin “I live in an existentialist mental hell I’ve been indoctrinated into” vs Chad “A meaningless life in a purposeless universe means I’m the master of my own destiny, and therefore I choose to eat tacos”

  • hungryphrog
    36·
    7 months ago

    Why be good if there is no hell?

    Erm… If you need to be threathened with eternal torture in order to be a good person, then chances are you are not good person.

    • froh42@lemmy.world
      13·
      7 months ago

      Exactly this thought made made me understand “god is irrelevant” a long time ago and I became an agnosticist.

      I really can not understand people who are only “good” because they fear an ultimate judgment, and not be good just because they want to out of their own volition.

      In case there are gods, I’ll be judged for who I am, anyways. It doesn’t matter if I play “good child”. If there are no gods, I’m still happier if I’m not an asshole.

  • luciferofastora@lemmy.zip
    31·
    7 months ago

    What I find even more reprehensible than the sentiment “Without the threat of consequences, why should I be decent?” is that their own fucking book holds the answer to their goddamn question (not an expletive here, their god should and probably would damn them for it):

    “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.” - Matthew 7:12

    The first half of this is a principle independent of religion, a fundamental social contract, the most critical idea underpinning any functioning society: Expect your behaviour to be reciprocated, and act accordingly. If you want others to help you if you need it, help people (if you can). If you want others to be kind to you, be kind to others. If you’re gonna be a prick, expect others to be just as prickly to you.

    If all that keeps you from murdering people is the threat of eternal damnation, you forget that your own scripture says “If you kill people, expect that others may kill you in turn.”

    Bonus: the biblical Jesus was known to hate hypocrites that pick out one piece of scripture to follow and ignore another and pharisees that carefully interpret and follow the letter of the law to find loopholes and ignore the heart of it. Those people lawyering their way around the otherwise unmistakable passages about generosity and giving away your wealth? Believe it or not, straight to hell.

    More disgusting than the sentiment mentioned at the start is the hypocrisy of selectively applying it, the inconsistency in their own beliefs, the hollow facade of devotion while spitting on the principles they perjure to obey.

    Signed, an apostate whose faith was shattered by fallacy of preaching love while children suffer and threatening hell while blasphemers thrive.

    • wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
      9·
      7 months ago

      It absolutely confounds me how Christianity has become a stereotypically right-wing thing when in the context of the time Jesus’s actions are mostly that of a radical progressive who amassed such a following that the power structures of the time had him killed.

      Like how in the hell can you run around hating homosexuals and immigrants when you account for the company Jesus kept in the context of the time? Only if you completely fucking ignore it.

      My wife’s grandfather was a pastor, and a saying that has passed through her family is “On the day of judgment, there’s going to be a lot of Christians facing a very unhappy surprise”.

      Signed, former apostate who has found his way back to being an incredibly frustrated Christian.

      • luciferofastora@lemmy.zip
        1·
        7 months ago

        On the day of judgment, there’s going to be a lot of Christians facing a very unhappy surprise

        I mean, even that is biblical. The passage in the Apocalypse about “What you did to the least of my brothers, you did to me” features a group of people claiming to be faithful being turned away just as they turned away the needy: “I don’t know you, go away”.

        Which means we’re back on the topic of reading one part but ignoring another. How can you vote to slash social security nets, then go to church and look at that cross, the symbol of the ultimate sacrifice and of a man that said “if anyone forces you to go one mile, go two, and if they demand your shirt, give them the coat too”, with anything but shame and disgust at yourself?

        In the Acts 5:1-10, there’s a story of a couple that sold an acre and gave part of the money to their parish. They lied and said it had been the full amount to exaggerate the weight of their contribution. As per the response, they wouldn’t have to give anything, but pretending it was the full amount was a deceit deserving of keeling over dead.

        Yet televangelists pretend to do God’s work, enriching themselves beyond measure. Guess that threat of punishment only works if you actually believe it.

  • JusticeForPorygon@lemmy.world
    26·
    7 months ago

    I’ve said it before I’ll say it again. If you need the threat of eternal damnation weighing over you to be a good person, you’re not a good person.

    • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldOPM
      7·
      7 months ago

      What do you mean by “now?” Like an eternal now? Like how it’s never not now until it’s stopped being now?