The UN passed the resolution calling it genocide so I agree with that, I trust a democratic vote of the UN despite their inability to actually do anything compared to South Africa. I’m still going to vote Biden though because I know about project 2025 and know that we will probably get genocided in our own country if he loses. It sucks but that’s how I feel.
I’m still going to vote Biden though because I know about project 2025 and know that we will probably get genocided in our own country if he loses. It sucks but that’s how I feel.
Instead of picking between a genocide and another you should just vote for someone else and don’t support any criminal.
Stein says that Russia had no other choice but to invade Ukraine and commit genocide there, and Cornel West has a similar position I believe.
If you don’t want to vote for a genocide apologist, you basically can’t vote.
>Stein says that Russia had no other choice but to invade Ukraine and commit genocide there, and Cornel West has a similar position I believe.
neither of them said this. your comment is straight misinformation.
https://twitter.com/DrJillStein/status/1629226431006875651?lang=en
“So yes, Russia illegally invaded Ukraine – but did so with a gun to its head, or in this case, nuclear-compatible missiles. Compared to the US mobilization for immediate nuclear war when roles were reversed w Russian nukes in Cuba, this response was relatively moderate.”
She’s went with the old “but NATO would be right there!” argument, which is pro imperialist apologia.
EDIT: I forgot Dr. West.
https://www.newsnationnow.com/politics/2024-election/biden-war-criminal-cornel-west/
“When it comes to Ukraine, we must grasp the implications of NATO expansion and its potential to escalate into a catastrophic conflict,” West stated. He called for an end to the war in Ukraine and urged diplomatic negotiations to ensure both Russian security and Ukrainian freedom.”
Once again, a pro imperialist argument that Ukraine isn’t allowed to do what it wants because it would piss off it’s former colonizer. And a pro imperialist argument that we know better than Ukraine and they should stop fighting because we said so, even though they want to keep fighting.
i love that you shared that thread. anyone can see she opposes war and genocide just by reading your link.
Yes because surrendering to genocidal maniacs is the “anti war” position.
And in this case, being anti NATO is being pro imperialist. Russia is angry that a former colony is going against them. NATO is supporting the colony against their former colonizers. Suggesting that the colonists stop fighting and do whatever the colonizers want is pro imperialism, and it’s what Stein and West are supporting.
No support for Israel. No support for Russia. No support for colonizers. Any “leftist” against Palestinian and Ukrainian aid is a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
>Suggesting that the colonists stop fighting and do whatever the colonizers want
no one said that
being antinato is being anti-imperialist.
calling for an end of the war is not pro-russian. you are providing evidence against your own position and then lying about what the evidence says.
It certainly is if Ukraine wants to continue fighting to reclaim their own land.
Let Ukraine decide, and support them in whatever their decision is.
i’m an anarchist, and i don’t believe states should exist at all. there are people living in the region called ukraine. i want them to live without any government, russian or ukranian.
she called the invasion illegal, and the only extent to which your comment is correct, cornel west agrees with **that**.
I’ve responded to your other comment.
Possible genocide in the USA should one of the two viable presidential candidates gets elected?
Will the democrats stop pursuing gun control considering this imminent threat of genocide?
I am really disappointed with the discourse concerning Biden’s handling of the most recent Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Everyone is acting like Biden invented our alliance with Israel and is somehow personally responsible for our support of Israel. Geopolitical alliances are complicated matters that touch everything from international reputation to national security. They are fostered over decades. We have obligations to Israel that precede Biden and the recent conflict.
I understand the moral positions people are taking, and I agree that a genocide is taking place. But with anything geopolitical, these issues must be approached without hard lines and moral absolutism, because those ideals are what both sides are using to justify the atrocities we are witnessing. They both feel morally justified, and that the other side has crossed some hard lines. That is how diplomacy breaks down.
Those of you that want to see an end to the conflict need to understand that the official US position at this moment is aligned with you. But so many of you are proposing “simple” solutions that will not achieve that outcome. If we end support for Israel, they will not stop the genocide. What we will lose is leverage in negotiating peace and we will weaken the alliance with Israel, and the genocide will continue unhindered by US calls for restraint. You may argue that Israel relies on this alliance for security, and that is true, but you assume that other super powers would not jump at the chance to replace the US as a close ally to a nuclear power in the middle east.
Let’s not forget how rash reactionary approaches to geopolitics threatened the NATO alliance during the Trump presidency. Our allies are already doubting if the US will honor the treaty, and this doubt extends to Taiwan, too. Weakening these alliances gives power to our enemies, full stop. Do you want to see war break out in the Pacific? Russia to expand its empire eastward? The Israel-Palestine conflict to extend to other Arab nations? Damaging these alliances will cause more war, not less.
Outrage against Israel is justified. But look past your nose before you jeopardize our key alliances. Diplomacy is slow and frustrating, but it is better than more war.
But look past your nose before you jeopardize our key alliances. Diplomacy is slow and frustrating, but it is better than more war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_2023_Israel–Hamas_war
There’s a genocide happening right now with USA support where thousand of childrens have already been murdered. Israel is bombing neighbor countries and the whole middle east is boiling as a result. They are not seeking diplomacy they are seeking war.
So we should abandon diplomacy precisely when it is needed most? When we withdraw our support and Iran and Egypt join the conflict, will it be easier to stomach the killing of even more children in more nations? After we cede our influence in the middle east and China expands its influence to fill the vacuum, we will be able to honor our treaty with Taiwan after an emboldened China begins bombing and killing their children?
This is the macabre calculus of geopolitics. This is the risk of reactionary policy. All of this is a hypothetical worse case scenario, but one thing is certain: if we withdraw our support, Israel will lose any incentive to stop the killing. More will die. And that would be the best case scenario.
diplomacy
To send israel government “whatever it needs” and additional aid is the opposite of diplomacy. The really reason they are getting away with a genocide is because they have the west backing.
There’s a genocide happening right now under your nose where thousand of kids are getting killed, this is already the worst case scenario. They are doing exactly what they want to do, they are not seeking diplomacy they want war.
I think…this is more complicated than a clear cut black and white choice. Not killing is clearly the correct response. Thing is how do we get there? Do we attempt to send in troops to police a location half a planet away? You know people will support that while also pointing out other conflicts we should be “dealing with” and pointing casually to situations we’ve made usually worse by stepping into.
That’s not really the point though. The point is the support being given.
I agree that the sales of arms to any institution inflicting harm on another is, at the absolute best, a grey area on a good day. It seems to me though that in a conflict that is powered by ideology, this legitimately makes no real difference. It will happen whether we break off the relationship or not. Because of this, it is best to attempt to utilize that relationship to attempt to diplomatically stop the conflict. The alternatives are send in forces which will increase regional political strain and possibly ignite a larger conflict, or do absolutely, irrefutably nothing.
If there is a fourth decision that leads to a better outcome I am not wise enough to see it. What I do understand is that all relationships require some give in order to have some take. I don’t agree with any weapons being sent over, though I do believe they made zero real impact on the result. This was going to happen and I feel attempting to stop it without escalation was the right choice, because it usually is the right choice.
Anyway, chances are the situation is far more complex than we realize. 50/50 on me being wrong, which is fine, opinions can change. Diplomacy should always take precedence over added conflict though.
Diplomacy should always take precedence over added conflict though.
Then we should start doing diplomacy and actually put pressure on Netanyahu to stop the genocide.
Until then we aren’t doing diplomacy we are appeasing a genocide of at this point probably ~50,000 Palestinians.
When Israel kills all Palestinians the problem is diplomatically solved!
This would be funnier if it wasn’t unironically what some are advocating.
I’m probably more ignorant than I realize, though I am under the understanding that there has been increasing levels of pressure. Netanyahu just doesn’t care.
Its ok to be ignorant, but you have to understand we are talking about this like it is an unpaid loan or some material bullshit.
This is an entire people and their landscape being erased. Every moment of “increasing pressure” that doesn’t create material policy change is horrifically extending hell on earth.
Removed by mod
Why do you think it happened?
Right and next Satan is going to tap dance on your kitchen counter.
You just stated the point of OPs post. It’s not like when we sent arms to them since the 80s Biden was suddenly like “ok go kill babies”. We should definitely suspend future transactions until at least the end of the current government term though. This whole US is equally responsible is a bit much though.
If genocide isn’t a red line for sending military aid then our alliances are already useless. We are the country and the country is us; not some third entity. So a moral failure of this magnitude being forced on us “for the good of our country” just opens the door to more moral failures. And we’re the ones that will have to live in that system.
Furthermore, allies who do have moral standards are now looking at us wondering if our moral failures will extend to keeping our word when it’s not a country that’s entangled itself with our religious conservatives. They are very aware of why we support Israel. And very aware that they do not share Israel’s unique political position.
It’s that enough big picture stuff for you or would like to attempt to rationalize sending weapons to a genocidal regime some more?
You managed to unironically demonstrate the point of the person you responded to.
Removed by mod
Biden didn’t invent the alliance to Israel, but when the conflict increased during his term he side-stepped congress to give weapons to them faster, so they can kill more civilians as quick as possible.
Don’t excuse for what he has done. Biden is a war criminal. And having NATO, most powerful minitarly alliance in the World, threatened is no comparison to genocide in Gaza. NATO is a problem just as well, but Israel needs to be stopped ASAP.
I’m never leaving lemmy. I love the way it’s common to see normal sane views being widely accepted. I can breathe here.
This is one of those ones that sounds rational but really isn’t.
Nobody said we have to leave Israel completely in the wind. They just want weapons deliveries to stop. Other countries aren’t worried about Democrats holding their alliances. They’re worried the Democrats are following the Republicans down the hole and supporting extreme religious parties. You show your allies you value them by listening to them, not by vetoing their anti starvation measures in the UN for several months.
Eh there’s plenty of people who want to completely abandon Israel, and I’m honestly sympathetic to their viewpoint. There’s definitely people who think any violence against Israeli civilians is justified, although they’re usually heavily downvoted.
I think the comment is perfectly rational when you consider these other comments.
It’s really refreshing. We do have our share of crazies, as my block list can attest, but for the most part people are willing to accept that sometimes situations can be really complicated.
What I really like about here is that nuance is understood and accepted. Very few people have a “bomb, baby, bomb!” approach. We largely agree that this violence is a tragic genocide and needs to stop. But we also understand the political reality in the US, and what our options are. And I think people have done a good job of successfully bringing Biden around on this.
What I really like about here is that nuance is understood and accepted.
Yeahhhh, about that, …
I’m never leaving lemmy. I love the way it’s common to see normal sane views being widely accepted.
A lot of astroturfing bots though. :/
Oh?
Ohh.
Slaughter all genocidists and eat the rich
Biden did not invent our alliance with israel, but he certainly has strongly supported it for decades and decades: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Nrv5izaTs
Calling the situation complicated and saying there is a lot of nuance has often been used as a cover for israel’s campaign of terrorism, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and now full-speed mask-off genocide. The official US position amounts to nothing because it’s two-faced. Biden will claim he is doing what he can while he bypasses congress and otherwise sneaks weapons to israel to continue the genocide. You ask about theoretical wars while downplaying a genocide happening right now. Somehow you think caring about genocide is rash, but being paranoid about imaginary wars is rational. I don’t know what your intentions are, but your post sounds like a PR piece, urging us to stay calm and take things slow so that israel can complete its mission of genocide in peace.
Damn, that’s at least a full step above a “Huh” with an inquisitively arched eyebrow.
His finger is dangerously close to wagging.
Like Mutumbo?
I don’t know if he’d go THAT far.
😂
“They have a point,” Biden said after the protesters were escorted out. “We need to get a lot more care into Gaza.”
They wouldn’t need it as badly if someone didn’t go around Congress to ban funding to UNRWA…
Still, the Biden administration decided to pause funding, and other big donors did the same. The U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Linda Thomas-Greenfield, says she understands that UNRWA is the only international organization with the capacity to help deliver food, flour and fuel to Palestinians in Gaza, but she says donors want to see a full investigation of the Israeli allegations.
And even after we found out the allegations were bullshit and confessions were after torture, both parties (except a few progressives) united to ban it till 2025.
Biden is literally responsible for this, but is acting like it’s just some random thing and maybe he’ll help out.
You’re not entirely wrong, but Biden has bipartisan backing on this as it’s part of the whole funding bill, which makes most of the repesentatives and senators complicit with Biden which this bill also gives Israel $3B, and Ukraine $0.3B.
Still, like how a massive frigate turns slowly, the actions of the State Department are showing a change of tune, and the US is nearly fed up with covering for Israel’s genocide. The first steps are to abstain from ceasefire resolutions and then to give the protestors attention and credibility. There are many more steps to go.
Republicans are always gonna disrupt any real action anyway, they are full mask-off on the Christian nationalism thing and believe they must support Isreal 100% no matter what to make jesus come back.
I’d really like to believe that but the cynic in me expects that as soon as Israel gets done with their genocide campaign they’ll pretend that they’ve turned a new leaf and all funding and military assistance will resume as though nothing had happened. There will be no lasting consequences for Israel’s actions so they will, correctly, assume that there is nothing to stop them from doing it again.
There will be no lasting consequences for Israel’s actions so they will, correctly, assume that there is nothing to stop them from doing it again.
Not concrete political action no, but make no mistake Israel has lost a lot of international support in this war, and support for them is now more concentrated among older people. I’ll be cautiously hopeful that we’ll see real change from the West in the next 20 or so years as the older generations die off and more people grow up hearing about Israel committing their second genocide.
I hope you’re right.
bill also gives Israel $3B, and Ukraine $0.3B.
You forgot banning aid to UNRWA…
the US is nearly fed up with covering for Israel’s genocide.
Voters are, and have been.
But can you name a Dem in a party leadership position that doesn’t take AIPAC money?
There are many more steps to go.
That’s what they told FDR 80 years ago when he was trying to get universal healthcare past a Dem controlled Congress…
There’s so many steps left to go, it’s functionally infinite. Because Republicans take more steps back then Dems take forward.
Biden spent a billion dollars in 2020 to just barely convince voters he was better than trump. I don’t know you, but if you had a billion dollar campaign, I bet you could have wiped the floor with trump.
Wait are we electing @rentlar as the Lemmy candidate? I dunno if they’re eligible.
When the only other two options can’t crack 33% approval, a random unknown person is kind of a shoe in…
I’d bet money no foreign government has donated to their campaign at least.
nearly fed up with covering for Israel’s genocide
The US is doing far more than covering for it, we are enabling it via massive funding and contributing the very bombs being used to decimate Gaza and murder 10s of thousands of civilians. Biden’s willingness to let Bibi order us around and use us as cover is absolutely pathetic - Biden, and by proxy the US, are completely captured by the far-right extremist government of a foreign nation state. This is the weakest posturing imaginable for a world leader, and it’s entirely because Biden is a genocidal Zionist freak.
“Bipartisan backing” in DC means one thing only - Congress is getting paid. It’s gross that AIPAC can buy air cover for a genocide so easily, but such is the extent of corruption in the US.
We are 6 months into this ethnic cleansing, and these baby steps are not nearly enough at this juncture. For fuck’s sake even Trump beat Biden to the natural conclusion of demanding Israel put a stop to this. The bar is so low it’s literally on the ground and Biden just faceplants in front of it. Pathetic.
“I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.”
Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from the Birmingham Jail
They wouldn’t need it as badly if someone didn’t go around Congress to ban funding to UNRWA…
Or if someone hadn’t sold Netanyahu weapons in the first place. Or if someone didn’t run interference for Netanyahu at the UN.
You know what would aid Gaza? Not giving money and weapons to the people blowing them up
Wrote this before and I’ll write it again. People need to understand the broader context here:
Tough for Biden to balance between:
-
Leaning too heavily into Israel and siding with genocide.
-
Leaning too heavily against, and being accused of being pro-Hamas.
Worse, if Biden withdraws all aid to Israel and then Israel is hit with another terrorist attack, manufactured or not, that’s the end of Biden. I think we can all agree that right-wing media propaganda is very effective and the ads would write themselves.
Within the electorate resides Jewish Americans who still largely support Israel by the polling, and the progressives and Palestinian Americans (a far smaller voting bloc).
The best Biden is going to manage in toeing the line is singling out Netanyahu (who himself is unpopular in Israel) instead of Israel itself and actions like this.
The risk obviously being that if Biden loses this election, the guy who wouldn’t just indirectly but likely directly commit genocide against Palestinians would come in and you certainly wouldn’t hear the words, “indiscriminate bombing” from Trump’s facial sphincter.
-
Leaning too heavily into Israel and siding with genocide.
-
Leaning too heavily against, and being accused of being pro-Hamas.
So the choices are siding with genocide, and merely being accused of being pro-Hamas?
Seems like a clear choice, since accusations of being pro-Hamas get flung around for merely wanting to genocide Palestinians just more slowly.
The caveat being missed here is that aid to Israel is also contingent on their defense. If the long-time precedent for aid to Israel is withdrawn and more Jews die, how do you think that is going to bode for the votes of — let me check — 7.6 million Jewish Americans? Trump gets in, and then what? Biden fails the purity test and everyone critical of Biden pats themselves on the backs as Trump steamrolls Palestinians not just indirectly but directly?
Vote for genocide, because if you don’t there’s gonna be more genocide. Y’all doing backflips to cover your violent beliefs.
Ah yes, that’s a completely accurate and fair description of the choice at hand and totally 100% not an obvious straw-man fallacy, leaving aside the cute little purity pyrrhic victory you’re setting yourself up for.
It’s very easy for me to be against genocide. Seems hard for you. 🤷🏼♂️
I’m completely for being against genocide!
I’m just forward-thinking and very much against it for the next 4 years, let alone next 8 months. Some people see a few more chess-moves ahead than others, I guess. Seems hard for you.
Removed by mod
-
It shouldn’t be this difficult for an actual leader to stop politicking and do the right thing. This is like Bill Clinton ignoring the Rwandan genocide. Or Reagan collaborating with the Guatemalan genocide. Or Nixon ignoring the Bengali genocide and directing the Cambodian genocide that enabled the Khmer Rouge genocide. On second thought, Biden’s an exemplary United States President. /s
Whenever you give me a data-driven solution to the problem I proposed with the 7.6 million Jewish Americans who are sympathetic to Israel and Biden definitely needing their vote more so than the 160,000 Palestinian Americans, you let me know.
Oh so then genocide is okay as long as it let’s you win an election?
Way to completely miss the point. Impressive, really.
There wasn’t a point. It was a denial that anything need to be done because the data says electoral politics are more important than stopping another genocide.
They also seem to think all jews in the United States are pro Isreal based on saying 8 million would be angered enough to vote republican if anything happened to Israel, which is also ridiculous to say while asking for data driven anything.
Even if Biden withdrew all aid to Israel, the genocide persists. So, now what?
They also seem to think all jews in the United States are pro Isreal based on saying 8 million would be angered enough to vote republican i
There you go again with the straw-man fallacies. What’s heavily ironic about this is I’ve heard ad nauseum about the 160,000 Palestinian Americans and what they might do should Biden not change his position. I already gave the PEW data indicating a sizable chunk of those 8 million are indeed supportive of Israel and no matter how you cut it, there’s a greater risk to Biden’s reelection.
But moreover think about just how short-sighted your thinking is here. Even if Biden stops the aid now and it backfires for Biden’s reelection, then Trump gets in — where will you be? Will you be celebrating and patting yourself on the back because Biden shot himself in the foot while Trump steamrolls Palestinians?
I think you just might.
It’s intentional. Best guess is these are either wedge-driving trolls, or very young and naive sub-20-year-olds full of idealism but lacking a particular degree of foresight.
Yes anyone who disagrees must be young or a troll. Great rebuttal there
Sometimes doing the right thing is more important than an election. If LBJ had taken your advice, Civil Rights would never have happened in America.
A brilliant political analyst, Johnson foresaw the consequences of his civil rights legislation on the day he signed it into law. He is said to have remarked: “We’ve lost the south for a generation.” historical data
Apples and oranges in my view; for Is there any law that Biden can sign right now?
Is there anything Biden can do right now that won’t be immediately reversed by Trump and orders-of-magnitude worse?
Hence why under these circumstances, in my opinion, following the polling data and ensuring election is paramount.
In the meantime we should all be focused not on criticizing Biden but targeting the pro-Israeli voters and trying to sway them. If you change them, the polling changes, and so too will Biden’s position.
And ultimately that’s exactly what we’ve seen over the last couple of months.
You’d sell your mother into slavery to get Biden elected, that much is obvious. You have no moral framework for any of your so-called “principles,” your only concern is winning. Which is precisely how we got to this point after the third-way Democrats compromised with neoliberalism by allowing corporate donations to dominate their party. Compromising your humanity by settling with the lesser evil is still evil.
Hahaha I’m sorry, what? Now you’re just going off the deep end.
I’d rather ensure my mother doesn’t live with Trump as president for another 4 years. It’s not good for her blood pressure.
Unfortunately you just seem far too short-sighted to comprehend the big picture, here. You’d rather manufacture purity tests for the Democrats even if that means holding the door open for literal evil. Classic pyrrhic victory.
Lambast Democrats all you want. Yet Every Single progressive advancement we’ve had in this country has come through the Democratic party.
Removed by mod
I’d love your source, because PEW suggests otherwise.
Removed by mod
This is like Bill Clinton ignoring the Rwandan genocide
Arguably this is because he didn’t ignore the Bosniak genocide but then NATO was criticized for getting involved.
It’s my personal belief that we should intervene militarily to stop genocides, but there’s influential “leftist” thinkers who seem to disagree. Some will still say the US shouldn’t have gotten involved with Kosovo, and I believe Chomsky notoriously denied the Cambodian genocide was even happening.
Of course, the right answer is to say fuck these people and get involved anyway. We shouldn’t bow to political disagreement when it comes to stopping genocides.
Worse, if Biden withdraws all aid to Israel and then Israel is hit with another terrorist attack, manufactured or not, that’s the end of Biden. I think we can all agree that right-wing media propaganda is very effective and the ads would write themselves.
Just scream “vote blue no matter who” at the pro-Israel Biden supporters.
I’m sick of people not saying the quiet part out loud: If every time there is a choice between doing the things progressives and leftists want the threat of moderate and liberal voters abandoning the party then we’re fucked anyway. Even if you’re optimistic and say “No no, the number of progressives and leftists is growing! We just have to be patient!” Guess what happens when progressives and leftists finally start winning primaries? That’s right, moderates and liberals will abandon the party.
There no point in delaying any longer. If the moderates and liberals will abandon the party if Biden stopped sending weapons to Israel then let’s get it over with.
That phrase was never meant for center right democrats, it was only there to sheepdog those who demand candidates not beholden to the billionaire class. You can’t “vote blue no matter who” those types, they’ll vote republican because at the end of the day most of them belong to social classes not threatened by conservatism, 4 years is no skin off their back, they may even see their IRAs grow. We’re nothing but a voting bloc to them, and that’s why things like Malcolm X’s quote on white moderates is so relatable to many non black progressives, both groups know what it’s like to be only included in appearance and only spoken to when votes are needed. How many more black elected officials do we have now, and yet the Democrats still fail Black voters perennially. I would have to ignore 60 year of history to think the progressive cause would do better if (and that’s a big if) we can get more of them elected. If there’s a path forward through the democratic party, it’s eluded the black community for long enough to see cop lynchings increase and I don’t think ‘progressive issues’ like ‘stop killing the environment before we all die’ have the time necessary to go the same route that’s been taken from Malcolm X to now.
Entropy is a thing.
What I mean by that is it’s far, far easier to smash a puzzle than to put it back together, let alone to incorporate new pieces. The damage done by Trump in merely 4 years could not be reversed if you got AOC with Bernie in there in 8 years let alone possibly 4. At this juncture, with the fragility of our system and the courts already stacked, maintaining some semblance of stability is overwhelmingly more crucial than expecting massive leaps.
I’m all for going full anti-Israel; but that doesn’t change the fact that every single political advisor is pointing Biden to precarious polling data; that blindly withdrawing all aid to Israel is simply NOT a popular position going into the election — at least yet.
Nothing you said negates the uncomfortable reality: If moderates and liberals refuse to compromise with leftists and progressives then fascism can’t be avoided. Do you want it now or later?
Unfortunately it goes both ways; the difference is the “moderates and liberals” are the majority of the coalition while the progressives as the minority also know better enough to know what’s at stake from playing chicken with the moderates who probably can’t comprehend the game you’re even trying to threaten. I don’t buy into argument that it’s “fascism now or later,” — for that remains entirely speculative.
You clearly didn’t read my original comment.
I did.
I re-read it.
I still disagree with the conclusion.
Then they’re shit at their jobs. This is public research polling, which usually lags behind internal private research.
Good advisors would have been telling him support is trending down for months at this point. If you’re going to govern by polls, you should be getting ahead of them. Not throwing out bullshit self certification stuff for military aid to cover for the genocidal regime you’re illegally sending arms to.
Isn’t that exactly what Biden is doing? Biden is shifting his stance inline with the polls and it’s working. While I do appreciate a leader who is willing to be bold and lead from the front regardless of public opinion because they can be very influential — I can see why they would be very nervous about getting ahead of the polls.
For as I said: If he does something drastic like withdrawing aid to Israel and Israel gets hit with another October 7th-level attack — manufactured or legitimate — he’d be done for. There’s no suddenly stopping the inertia we’ve had for Israel as a foreign policy position for decades that has largely shared bipartisan support.
And I mean come on, really? Do you really think you genuinely know better than his advisors and strategists and that they’re “shit at their jobs”? It’s a cute, confident thing to say… But if you’re really doubling down on that, perhaps you should contact them or look for a job opportunity. What’s more is that while your polling shows people disapprove of Israel’s actions, what we should do in response is the obvious follow-up, and withdrawing aid to them likely doesn’t share the same popularity. I wouldn’t want to be in Biden’s position or his strategists.
Any advisor that would lie to the president is a bad advisor. That’s a ridiculous thing to argue over. That’s not my ego, or me thinking I’m better.
And yes when Israel crosses the line the military aid becomes illegal. There’s no exception for “we’ve been doing it for so long”.
Any proof of these lies?
It would not be the end for Biden. That’s hyperbole. Also why are we pressuring anti genocide people to come out and vote regardless, but taking it for granted that pro genocide people can’t be pressured at all.
You know who you’re never going to get to vote for Biden again? The Muslim communities that are actually in mourning right now because they know people dying in Gaza. The same ones that are key voting groups in the Rust Belt. Which is the same area that Trump used to win in 2016.
The Republicans are already calling him terrorist pedophile. Doing something to stop the GOP from running baseless attack ads is useless.
The only one trying to lose this election is Biden. There are legions of progressives ready to hold their noses and vote for him. But he keeps running to the right. And we’ll keep staying home.
You’re saying he’d be fine if a terrorist attack occurred after withdrawing aid to Israel? Sorry I just can’t agree with that. He’d be toast and the 7 million Jewish Americans would turn on him in a second, amplified all the more by right-wing propaganda that doesn’t just influence Republicans but the centrists and even many Democrats.
He’s doing quite the opposite from running to the right. He’s completely shifted his position from lockstep support for Israel to letting ceasefire votes go through and publicly calling out Netanyahu.
Biden already signaled he’d be harder on Israel than Trump. There really isn’t any more that needs to be said. It’s holding the nose and supporting Biden now for the next 8 months or suffer 4 years of the far, far worse guy.
Yup so hard. So many hard words like, “here’s those bombs you wanted.”
These are his ‘only’ choices only because identifying the broader issue of Israeli occupation and settlement (the core complaints of Palestinians and the reason why Hamas exists) puts at risk US interests in the region - namely Israel’s projection of strength throughout the middle east.
The protection of US neo-colonial and imperial interests is the reason why Biden is in a tough position, and the reason why leftists will never be satisfied by stern words by Biden.
Oh no, he will be accused of being pro-Hamas. Just like when you criritize him you are accused of being pro-Trump, or if you critize evil NATO countries are doing, you are called pro-Russian. If people are that stupid to not see this clear tactic that everyone who critiques me must support my enemies, then you should maybe they shouldn’t use the same tactic when it suits them.
-
It’s a waste of time — Especially in an election year with so much on the line and post-primaries — to criticize Biden and instead better to criticize the groups who continue to support Israel. When the polls shift, the administration will shift… As has already occurred.
-
I don’t give a fuck if you do, so long as you vote and support Biden in November. Palestinians and Ukrainians are counting on us, and the guaranteed-alternative is significantly-worse. I just had some other fool tell me they’re voting 3rd-party, so they are clearly supporting the enemies. I hope you’re smarter.
Except that the voting uncommitted has actually worked to move Biden on the issue (Dems calling for an election in Israel).
Has it? The real issue convincing those who are undecided or supportive of Israeli action; it’s less to do with the minority progressives threatening to not vote because everyone knows progressives will hold their nose. But it’s the swing-voter moderates and centrists who are less informed on the issues and easily-swayable by political talking-points — and who make up a far larger chunk of the electorate — that Biden is concerned about. When 1/3 are unsure if Israel is committing genocide and 1/3 say they’re not, that is a problem.
- They don’t shift policies, they shift marketing. They will continue to support Israel because they are treating you with Trump and you have to vote for them whatever they do. So change is never going to happen.
- Either vote third party or don’t waste your time voting. You are getting nothing better with democrats. Trump is a candidate that was placed there by the democrats so they can have a better chance in the elections. In next elections they will simply move the goal post and get someone even worse for Republican party and whatever you are voting against in these elections will be the democrat position in the next one.
Trump is a candidate that was placed there by the democrats so they can have a better chance in the elections.
Either vote third party or don’t waste your time voting.
Either vote third party or don’t waste your time voting. You are getting nothing better with democrats. Trump is a candidate that was placed there by the democrats so they can have a better chance in the elections. In next elections they will simply move the goal post and get someone even worse for Republican party and whatever you are voting against in these elections will be the democrat position in the next one.
Ladies and gentlemen, a wedge-driving operative seeking to undermine Democrats and get Trump into office. There is literally zero evidence that “Trump is a candidate that was placed there by Democrats”. There is zero historical evidence voting third party does anything more than get the worse of two evils in office — and Ukrainians and Palestinians would much prefer Biden over Trump any day.
This is the rhetoric of someone either not either not familiar with the political system, or intentionally trying to undermine the left by opening the door for conservatives.
This is the rhetoric of someone either not either not familiar with the political system, or intentionally trying to undermine the left by opening the door for conservatives.
false dichotomy. they may be familiar with the political system (even more than you or i), and not believe the same things you do. they may be a leftist. you are making up attacks on their person instead of dealing with the substance of their claims.
No, commie (username), I’m simply grounded in reality.
There is literally zero evidence that “Trump is a candidate that was placed there by Democrats”.
Nobody in the entire country would’ve disagreed with that strategy at the time, for quite literally everyone including Republicans thought Trump would doom the party. Hindsight is 20/20
That, however isn’t the same as saying Trump is a Democratic plant colluding in disguise lol.
There is zero historical evidence voting third party does anything more than get the worse of two evils in office
no such evidence is possible: you can’t prove a counterfactual. you can’t know who the worse evil would be. further it’s not clear that so-called “third party” voters actually impact elections at all unless their candidate wins.
No, we can. 3rd parties have been around for decades and won nothing and only exacerbated the goals of said parties by undermining the only party that has tangible results.
You prove my point.
It’s a waste of time — Especially in an election year with so much on the line and post-primaries — to criticize Biden and instead better to criticize the groups who continue to support Israel. When the polls shift, the administration will shift… As has already occurred.
It is clear as day that the only thing actually making Biden think twice about unconditionally supporting the mass slaughter of Palestinians is that he might actually lose the election because his opinions are so unpopular and brutal on the Palestinian genocide.
Right now is THE TIME to grind everything about the Democratic Party to a halt until Biden gets the message that halting the supply of weapons to an ongoing genocide is a non-negotiable aspect of getting leftist (and muslim) voters. He doesn’t give a shit though that much is clear, once the election is over if he wins than all the pressure to actually do anything other than say empty words goes away.
As I’ve repeatedly pointed out, the problem is this can only go so far before it works against him. All Democrats are doing is splitting his attention between two groups — and if he pivots too much to one side, he risks alienating an arguably even LARGER group of voters.
So as I said, the best bet is to focus not on finger-wagging to Biden, but finger-wagging to the actual Pro-Israelis and undecided (who are 1/3 of the electorate). Thus if you want to continue influencing Biden, continue influencing the polls themselves and Biden will reflect that.
He doesn’t give a shit though that much is clear, once the election is over if he wins than all the pressure to actually do anything other than say empty words goes away.
I think it’s just the opposite. I think similar to the Afghan withdrawal once an election has passed he will take a very Anti-Israeli stance while amplifying his support for Ukraine as well.
He had no issues welcoming Nikki Haley voters to become part of his base probably because he knows how hard this election will be to win without the help of progressives and leftists. But he chose to move right instead of left, so he shouldn’t be surprised when people start treating him like a 2000s era republican.
How has he moved right? Welcoming Haley voters is a sound strategy that is not mutually-exclusive to moving left, which he absolutely has on the topic of Israel.
-
-
You know what would really, really aid Gaza?
Hamas releasing all hostages in exchange for a cease-fire.
But they won’t. The PR bonanza — successful, by the sound of apparently ~99% of this community — at the expense of civilian innocents has been too good to stop anything, yet.
then stop doing it instead of pretending to care ffs
Removed by mod
Fuck all those willing to commit atrocities in the name of land or religion.
And especially Netanyahu and gang who do it for monetary profits.
Amazing, they actually got him to say something after like the nth protest at his rallies after 6 months.
If we keep this up, he’ll eventually talk about how he was totally gonna refund UNRWA after he loses in November.
Except he completely missed the point.
“We need to get more aid into Gaza” is very much not “we need to stop arming Israel so much.”
Joe Brandon be like
bullying works. if it didn’t, bullies would do something else.
No fucking shit decent human beings have a point, that could easily be taken as dismissal.
Please act, and end Israel’s reign of horror.
you have a point now shut up
It’s been almost six months, you could’ve said something before now.
You didn’t watch the State of the Union speech, huh?
No, instead we watched his actions. Such as banning aid for the UNRWA, blocking Un resolutions against Israel, sidestepping congress to ship them weapons, ensuring billions in funding go their way.
But wow he was totally mean to them in a speech, i guess thats what matters.
UN Security Council passes resolution calling for Gaza ceasefire 2 days ago By Raffi Berg,BBC News Watch: Moment UN passes Gaza ceasefire resolution
The UN Security Council has called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, after the US did not veto the measure in a shift from its previous position. It also demanded the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages. It is the first time the council has called for a ceasefire since the war began in October after several failed attempts. The move by the US signals growing divergence between it and its ally Israel over Israel’s offensive in Gaza.
Seems like action to me. Yeah a lot more needs to be done, but his words and actions are meeting.
I’m not sure if calling “the US chose to finally stop vetoing UN resolutions” as action. They didn’t vote in the affirmative. By the time the current administration does something to actually change things like refusing to send weapons, there won’t be any more Palestinians left who haven’t forever lost their family, home, or life.
I’m wondering just how damageable in terms of geopolitics would a deterioration of relations with Israel be. Cause it has to be huge to justify not acting on this genocide. What stops Biden/US from acting ? what can I read to better understand this issue ?
-
the US sees Israel as the only thing it can control in the middle east. it was always meant to be one of a few “pro-democracy beachheads” in the area, with the US attempting to make iraq work the same way in the 2000s. The idea was to put Israel in a position where they were powerful compared to their enemies but dependent on foreign aid, so that they could do whatever they want as long as they also did whatever we want. This is straight out of the British post-colonial hegemonic playbook - you don’t send people to take over, and instead you elevate one local group from second or third place to the top and then make sure they never develop enough power that they can remain on top without your help. If you do this successfully, you can control them completely because all you have to do to send them tumbling from power is nothing when they’re counting on your support.
-
Up until now, the impact of helping Israel didn’t have to be all that massive because the impact of Israeli violence against Palestinians (edit: ON THE OPINION OF THE AVERAGE AMERICAN) wasn’t either. What you’re seeing is a replay of the US allowing anyone with a camera to report from Vietnam - the narrative used to be pretty tightly controlled but between Palestinian social media updates and Israel’s internal jingoistic propaganda being leaked to the western world it’s becoming harder and harder to sustain the whole ‘most moral army in the world engaged in a limited defensive operation that respects the right of all law-abiding people to live in peace’ narrative. We see them shooting at people gathered around aid trucks now. We hear them talking about “children of light vs children of darkness”, “every Palestinian is a terrorist because they all support Hamas” and seizing all of Palestine to build beachfront condos. Americans tend to like war in theory, but we have a strong sense of fair play and we’ll only stay on board up to a certain amount of video of unarmed people being mowed down by soldiers. This is why they’re simultaneously softening their position on Palestine and moving to seize the only major social media outlet that isn’t US-based (and therefore isn’t able to be pressured about ‘misinformation’ the way that FB, X, reddit, etc are). It’s a matter of appeasing us in order to stay in power now while moving behind the scenes to ensure that they control the narrative in future so that they’re never again put in a position where they’re beholden to the will of voters who think that foreign people are people.
point one is also why the chosen rhetoric in opposition of the genocide is targeted at Netanyahu specifically rather than the entire administration, because rather than loosing relations with Israel as a country, the US wants to oust Netanyahu and have someone else they support take his place. That way they can keep their post-colonial pet in the middle east without looking like they’re (still) supporting a genocide.
The problems with this, though, are:
- the US would still be engaged in a post-colonial imperialist action in the Middle East
- the broader Israel-Palestine relationship will almost certainly stay the same regardless, and I think a lot of American’s opinion on Israel has been pretty irrevocably damaged since this new phase of conflict started.
you’re absolutely right. nothing good ever happens just because it’s good, and this is no different. brandon is currently trying to figure out a way to keep power in both America and the middle east, and built into the british model for post-settler-colonial hegemony is the precise lever that he’s trying to pull. Namely “either you quit fucking this up for me or I’ll fuck everything up for you so badly that you’ll cease to exist”
seizing all of Palestine to build beachfront condos
Whoever buys that land to make those needs to be harassed for the rest of their lives. That’s absolute scum of the earth bullshit. Religion and real estate all in one gigantic shit storm… Literally the worst humanity has to offer.
Jared Kushner I believe is the one who suggested displacing Palestinians to build luxury buildings and vacation hotspots.
So yeah, pretty much absolute scum of the earth. He can’t be allowed near the White House ever again.
Thanks a bunch. Yeah that makes a lot of sense
Removed by mod
If it is about Israel being the one thing the US can control in the middle east, I wonder then if this is not the US realizing it is losing control of their asset.
-
Israel uses a significant amount of the $$ the US gives them to lobby (IOW, bribe) members of the US political parties to support them. Including giving them more $$, in a positive feedback loop. The lobbied polits in effect give themselves money along with what Israel keeps.
This is the answer. Everything else may have been more true in the past. But the lobby has become so entrenched, that this is the answer.
Alright thanks for the clarification
From my understanding, we need good relations with israel to have a stable military oresence in the middle east
I see. Appreciate the clarification
What stops Biden/US from acting ?
Are red or blue going to lose the elections? They are making money and expanding their power why should they stop?
It would be terrible for the West
We would have to permanently ship around the cape of Africa and abandon oil based economies
It also brings about a large issue for future wars due to strategic positioning
And allies won’t trust the US to defend them so you’re better off aligning with Russia or China
Abandoning oil based economies is good.
Yes but when so much especially militarily relies on it, there is a big transition period where you/Europe/East Asia are vulnerable and hoping that Texas is enough
I am pro nuclear but I realize the biggest problem with it is that it is a military target
Fuck Joe Biden.
Trump and Putin both thank you for your service.
Trump and Putin thank Biden for being such a dumbass that he’s burning voters he’s depending on to win elections.
Is this even remotely supported by polling data?
The answer is no, it really is not
-
There are 172,000 Palestinian Americans.
-
There are 7.6 million Jewish Americans who still heavily lean in support of Israeli actions.
-
And progressives who, being the most informed part of the electorate, know damn well if Trump gets in then it’s orders-of-magnitude worse for the Palestinians.
… But hey, just one legit (or illegitimate false-flag) terrorist attack post-revocation of aid to Israel — and tell me, what happens to Biden and Democrats’ chances then…?
Your counter argument is “Well the shitty decision is more popular so.”?
There are 7.6 million Jewish Americans who still heavily lean in support of Israeli actions.
Then shame them for being shitty people. Don’t shame progressives and leftists for refusing to cater to it. Your accusation that refusing to vote for Biden is support for Putin and Trump is equally damning whether Biden continues to send weapons to Israel or not. Those who would refuse to support Biden if he stopped sending weapons to Israel are just as guilty. The difference is they want to keep bombing people.
Direct your shame and finger wagging to the people who actually deserve it.
Your counter argument is “Well the shitty decision is more popular so.”? My counter-argument is actually: The shitty decision is more popular, and it prevents the even-shittier decision from playing out next year, should the other guy win.
The good news is that Biden has clearly pivoted in recent months, going from being lockstep with Netanyahu to calling out the indiscriminate bombing and having a public tussle with them now. In fact they’ve moved more on this issue than I expected, abstaining from their veto-power and outright calling Israel’s actions indiscriminate.
But it’s a curious thing, your dodging my question: Just one legit (or illegitimate false-flag) terrorist attack post-revocation of aid to Israel — and tell me, what happens to Biden and Democrats’ chances then…?
Then shame them for being shitty people. Don’t shame progressives and leftists for refusing to cater to it. Your accusation that refusing to vote for Biden is support for Putin and Trump is equally damning whether Biden continues to send weapons to Israel or not. Those who would refuse to support Biden if he stopped sending weapons to Israel are just as guilty. The difference is they want to keep bombing people.
I’m all for trying to convince them, which is clearly what the Biden administration is softly trying to do. Too hard, and you know enough from internet arguments how people double-down blindly to safe face. That doesn’t change the fact of the current polling.
So here’s a thought: it goes both ways — Why don’t YOU shame them for being shitty people instead of expecting Biden to do anything differently until those people actually SHIFT their positions? I mean isn’t it extremely ironic you say this as you finger-wag at Biden doing Democratic things in a Democracy?
So here’s a thought: it goes both ways — Why don’t YOU shame them for being shitty people instead of expecting Biden to do anything differently until those people actually SHIFT their positions? I mean isn’t it extremely ironic you say this as you finger-wag at Biden doing Democratic things in a Democracy?
But it doesn’t go both ways.
Progressives and leftists are simultaneously “the minority” in every single policy disagreement. There is not a single example of Biden making material compromises with progressives and leftists in his entire term because the threat is always “the polls don’t say that’s the way to go”.
So then after 4 years of being pushed aside Every. Single. Time. if Biden loses who will be blamed? Moderates? Liberals? War mongers? Nope. Those darn progressives and leftists.
Despite having zero material influence on policy we are handed 100% responsibility for every failure. It’s fucking bullshit.
Dude Biden and AOC both disagree with you. He clearly has compromised with progressives and been more progressive than probably any president in 40 years.
Literally every single social and economic progressive act had come through Democrats. It may not he as fast as you want but at least it happened unlike wishful thinking.
Biden wasn’t even my 3rd choice and I hear your frustrations on wishing more could be done, but it’s just not feasible until we actually change the rules of the game and kick the GOP to the curb for good.
You argued to me to stop finger-wagging at progressives and focus on the problem. All I’m saying is to do the same. Stop finger-wagging at Biden and influence the polls. Influence the Jewish Americans and I promise you the second you shift their stance you’ll see a reflection in the a Biden Administration’s approach.
Because his team of advisors and strategists with more experience and insider polling data than you or me are doing exactly this.
-
Israel thanks you for yours.
Because Israel just loves Biden — is that right?
And Biden doesn’t love Israel?
Go peddle your swill to the shrinking faithful, liberal - and buy some cope in bulk while you’re at it. You’re going to need it.
Removed by mod
Keep living up to that username.
Err, Boomers are generally in favor of sending weapons to Israel. You know that right?
Everybody Sucks Here.
No, I don’t need to write a 100 page comment about how some suck harder then others.
Switching away from first past the post voting makes third parties viable and eliminates the spoiler effect. Just search for videos on FPTP voting if you want an explanation on how and why first past the post voting makes third parties not viable.
Electoral reform is possible in each individual state (for now), we dont need federal reform! Maine and Alaska have already passed electoral reform.
So what’s the hold up with the rest of the states? Consider starring a campaign to chanfe how we vote in your own state! Force our representatives to compete with fresh outside ideas. We deserve the best representation, not excuses.
Dark Brandon, come forth and high five one of them.
Fascist Joe what?
Please explain in clear terms what actions on the part of Joe Biden are consistent with any definition of the term fascism. Please provide the definition you are using for reference.
If you cannot substantiate your blatantly ignorant statement, please shut the hell up.
He acts as fascist by defining himself as a democrat when at the same time he ignores the popular will and continues to fund a genocide
It is the way contemporary fascism operates, publicly defining itself as one thing while at the same time acting contrary to the ideals they supposedly represent.
Research the etymological root of the word fascist and you will understand.
Research the etymological root of the word fascist and you will understand.
No. You provide the definition that you’re using. I won’t go on a wild goose chase to try to find a basis for your argument. You provide a basis for your argument.
he ignores the popular will and continues to fund a genocide
You realize that the US is bound by several preexisting agreements with Israel right? And that those agreements can’t just be dropped due to the changing wind of public opinion?
Honoring your defense and economic agreements is in no way “fascist”.
An annoying side effect of the rise of Republican fascism has been some leftist critics labeling everything they don’t like as fascist, even when it makes absolutely no sense.
To be clear, this is like a pet peeve level of annoying compared to all the other shit going on. It’s not in my top 10 things to be concerned about, but damn if it isn’t annoying.
Honoring your defense and economic agreements is in no way “fascist”.
Which agreement requires Biden to sell arms for genocide? Which one requires us to run interference at the UN?
