Show me all these 28 year olds who refuse to work. Because I see mostly 28 year olds who want to work but can’t find jobs, and a handful who wish they could work but are disabled.
This fucking out of touch hoser needs to spend a day in the real world.
I think I figured it out. These guys are thinking of themselves when they were younger. They mooched off mommy and daddy’s money after college until they were forced to get a job. They assume everyone’s life is like that.
This is also the secret to how guys like Bezos start a company from a garage; they mooched off their parents, so didn’t have to worry about how long it took to make any money.
Bezos took it a step further than most. Small loans of several hundred thousand dollars from his parents paired with actual fraud perpetrated against the major publishers.
I vaguely recall the fraud, but I forget the specifics. Please drop a link for more info if you have one! (Otherwise, yes, I am capable of searching the web myself.)
In Flood’s case, he had a show on his college’s radio so his parents bought him a station. He got more stations. Then he became a politician. He has never worked a day in his life.
Gotcha. Sounds relatively easy to verify, but eh, personally I’m inclined to believe you. And fits his entitled attitude for sure!
If you haven’t started a business in your garage, you just need to remarket yourself to yourself.
I once sold some old clothes on ebay and one of the items went to CanadaI am an international designer jeans exporter.I’m the biggest buyer of my own books (to give away).
Weird I’m not a millionaire yet. Perhaps I’m not marketing to myself effectively enough.
Are you charging enough?
Probably not, but I can’t afford to charge more.
Did you write The Art of the Deal?
or they come from WEALTH, and they were mooching of from parents even to this day, and became wealthy themselves.
I see way too many 28 year olds who aren’t working at one job, they’re working two.
And they are still struggling to raise their kids.
This country’s rulers have asked its working class to try or accept every solution except the one that those rulers are paid to pretend doesn’t work; taxing the shit out of rich people.
Don’t change the hypothetical.
He asked if a 28 yo who can work but refuses to should receive free health care.
I dunno about you but my answer is yes.
First: do no harm.
Second: make sure your patient is contributing to society in accordance with his ability.
Exactly. This is how the message gets watered down and ends up means tested garbage. I believe in universal healthcare that is free at the point of service.
I don’t think I changed the hypothetical. He seems to be complaining there are out-of-work 28 year olds who aren’t, I dunno, taking the backbreaking vacancies left by all the migrants they’re deporting for like $2/hour, plus that they want healthcare. Both are ignorant takes, but the ‘they don’t want these jobs’ thing stands out to me because we fucking told them nobody can hope to live on those wages, so bitching ‘kids these days’ don’t want these jobs is a massive facepalm.
Of course we should have universal healthcare.
e: and to be clear, none of these jobs will ever be filled by citizens, not because they’re ‘above it’ or whatever, but you can’t usually extort a citizen into ‘wages’ that low (read: make them a literal slave) by holding their visa hostage or threatening to have them deported back to the situation they fled from. And some of those situations are far, far worse than being dramatically underpaid.
I misspoke, really, because I shouldn’t have said change. I’m reality, you didn’t address the hypothetical at all.
My point was it doesn’t matter if these people exist or not. That’s the point of a hypothetical.
Plus 28yo likely doesn’t cost much on healthcare anyway.
The whole question is a distraction
They don’t want 28 year olds to work.
They want 28 year olds to works for peanuts.
Idk how many employees Charles Schulz can support being dead for 25 years BUT I bet they really want these 28 year olds to pick the peanuts and other crops. But then they will say you can’t have free health care because you don’t make enough picking fields.
Wanting a job for income and wanting to work are very different indeed but your point stands.
I believe most people want to contribute, but our society isn’t set up to align individual interest and aptitude with need.
If we’re asking the majority of people to grind their own bones into dust doing something they hate for a pittance, that’s a large part of the problem. Some people love cleaning (like my sister), others love woodworking or cooking or streaming. But we’re forcing square pegs into round holes because we give no thought whatsoever to how people’s skills, aptitude, and interest might align with society’s needs, then we’re shocked pikachu when most are unhappy and thus unproductive.
Work in the context I meant was definitely the type that results from the current hierarchy resulting in the categorical failure you’re pointing out.
Contributing to someone you meet and relate face to face to feels good. Contributing to the concept of company or the “stakeholder” not so good.
Personally i like to do a little of everything but forced myself to learn a specialty to earn a livable wage.
In that case, I guess I agree with him that most people don’t want to ‘work’. Wanting to be a wage slave would be bonkers. Most people want to contribute meaningfully to society and don’t want to starve, but that’s not what ‘work’ means.
Right, it should just mean paid labor, but the people complaining about this would prefer it unpaid.
I’d prefer pay to be unnecessary and the labor voluntary. At least I think that’s a good ideal to work towards.
I have never, and I mean TRULY NEVER wanted to work.
But I am not stupid, so I know I NEED to work in order to live.
Not wanting to give the majority of my day to a company that makes more in one second than 10,000 minimum wage employees make in a month is not “being lazy”.
1/3 is already taken by sleeping, and you fucking want me to just give up another 1/3? For THIS shit pay? Entirely Fuck Off.
Plus it costs me money just to get to work.
Preach!
I used to be able to do math problems and get paid well to do them. It wasn’t ever “fun” or particularly rewarding but I could do it and not be completely exhausted or in pain at the end of the day.
Now my pay is cut and I’ve been doing brain-rot marketing for months thanks to trump’s cuts. My brain fog is so bad and motivation so low that the email that used to take me 30 seconds takes at least 20 minutes if not an hour these days. It’s just meaningless and I feel like I’m working at a telemarketing call center for a company that doesn’t sell anything. It’s even hard to apply for new jobs. I don’t know how the fuck I’m sober especially now of all times…
Just luvky I managed to get a couple promising interviews lined up, have some friends, and relatively low expenses.
Depends on your definition of work. I don’t think we should let ourselves be convinced that work can only be selling your energy, your time and your skills to a company that will pay you as little as it can get away with. If you have creative hobbies, practice some craft on your free time or help other people free of charge, that’s still work: you’re creating something of value for others and/or for society. It just doesn’t feel like it because it’s something you actually want to do instead of being forced to do.
that’s still work: you’re creating something of value for others and/or for society
Honestly I put “NEED to get paid in order to live” but changed it to “I NEED to work” because of this. Even if I just decided to find a forest in the middle of nowhere to claim as my own, build a house, raise animals and farm the land I’m still working.
But since I do enjoy my hobbies of carpentry, metalworking and leatherworking, I don’t really consider them work in the same sense. You’re 100% correct.
I make stuff for people all the time, but it’s on my own schedule when I feel like working on something, and I only accept orders when I feel like it. If I tried to do that full time, it’s now not really up to me if I go work on something today. I have to or I get backed up, the customer gets pissed, and I’m losing money. Or the equivalent favors/barter.
‘Do something you love and you’ll never work a day in your life’.
I’ll bet there are things you love to do that would have value to others in society, even if you wouldn’t consider that a ‘job’ or ‘work’.
That’s kind of my point. If our society weren’t so broken, you could contribute without having to do what we currently consider ‘work’.
e : this sounded wrong, sorry. I meant if we could let go of capitalism, this is how things should work. We can’t have nice things, though.
‘Do something you love and you’ll never work a day in your life’.
It’s a nice sentiment, but sadly the moment you depend on it for survival, it becomes work.
In another comment just now, I mentioned my hobbies include making knives/swords, leather work, and some light carpentry.
I love all these things. I make a pretty neat and simple metal rose that I can do different things with for coloring, and those sell like hotcakes around valentines day. But every year, I only make a handful for a few people here and there, and almost always as gifts. I never make a bunch of them beforehand with intent to sell “to someone”, that’s work. That’s unenjoyable for me.
I could make bank in my area if I invested my savings into metalworkingnstuff stuff and focused on custom knives for hunting and camping, but the thought of that makes me want to kick my anvil and forge into the lake.
I suppose the response to that should be “well I just haven’t found the thing I truly love” yet, but I just don’t believe there is anything of value that I could provide to anyone that I would enjoy so much that it never feels like work and pays all my bills.
I long for the utopian future of post-scarcity…
Right, but you’re still assuming a capitalist society. Without that cutthroat marketplace and the need to compete, it wouldn’t necessarily be like that.
It’s really hard to imagine, I know – and especially because I get it, I have a very niche hobby (period corset making and couture tailoring) that I could potentially make a lot of money doing but when I tried, it sucked all the enjoyment out of it to the point I had to stop for a few years.
I’m talking about doing what you’re good at without the backdrop of a capitalist system that sucks you for every drop of blood you have.
The point to these chucklefucks is their base is so outraged at the thought of anyone getting something for nothing that they’d rather have everyone else go without just to avoid the possibility.
It’s easy to get people angry when you convince them all their hard work meant less than they think, and even easier if they think someone else got something without having to work as hard.
We see this in all animals that understand fairness, and it’s the fastest way to turn monkeys against each other (visibly give away grapes unevenly if you want somebody’s face to get ripped off).
It’s also a very primal manipulation tactic that works quite well, so long as you can redirect the animosity.
I’ve always had to intellectualize significant jealousy or envy. I can understand it in a way, but I just don’t feel it. I mean, I get the “must be nice” part, but I’ve never understood how what someone else has or does reflects on me. I’m not lesser because they have more. It’s the same way with the gay rights stuff - how does what another person does impact me if it’s not directly impacting me?
most of the one im seeing are working, the ones arnt working are probably lazy conservatives.
It’s not free. We all work to lift up the most vulnerable people in our society. I am very thankful to be an able bodied person that pays taxes. I’ll never look down upon anyone that needs to use public assistance.
I’m sick and fucking tired of Republicans talking about welfare queens.
Meanwhile these assholes suck off the public teat and do nothing to give back to anyone except the donor class.
I think you maybe didn’t understand my point. It seems like you drank from the right wing talking points fire hose.
I think you missed this person’s point- he is calling the politicians (aka this idiot) the useless ones. They help no one and only take away from the vulnerable and make things worse for those they are supposed to help. The comment agreed with you
You’re correct. I took the comment the other way. My apologies.
I think you misread
I think you’re misunderstanding. He’s saying Republican states that hate welfare are usually the welfare states that need the most funding and then the only money they want to give back, it’s to ultra millionaire conservatives who parrot the welfare Queen rhetoric.
You missed my point. This guy (and plenty of other Republican assholes like him) is saying that only “productive” members of society deserve to live a healthy life while producing nothing but misery for most of the people they were elected to represent and are supposed to be helping. They are the true “welfare queens.” They live off of taxpayer money and contribute nothing to taxpayers.
You definitely misread. Re-read their comment in context to yours.
This. And when we lift people up, it generally helps get people out of poverty and become contributing members of society.
It’s not a hand out, it’s a hand up. And for those that dgaf about helping their neighbors, it also is generally cheaper to help people once and get them squared away, vs being screwed up for life, committing crimes and using up tax dollars on police/justice/jail/cleanup resources.
In short, literally everyone should be on the same page. It’s the moral and economically right thing to do, lol.
Exactly. I tell people all the time I am happy to pay taxes and heck I’d even pay more in taxes, but what I want is for everybody to pay their fair share.
I don’t even know how it’s become so radical these days. We’ve got governments around the world being elected and saying governments can’t be trusted so let’s give it all to corporations.
It’s “free at time of service” which is an important distinction. Everyone in a community contributes in some way to fire services. The fire brigade doesn’t ask for payment before they arrive at the scene.
Health should not be tied to employment. You shouldn’t be afraid to take care of your health because you’re between jobs. I imagine that people who do visit doctors regularly have better health and as a result lower healthcare costs. If you have to worry about how you’re going to pay for it you’re less likely to go.
I pay a fair amount to cover my family and pay a fair bit more in taxes if it meant that I didn’t have to worry about my employment to get coverage or knew that my child would be covered in the future.
Just flip the question around and think about it for a sec. Should people who can work but don’t and then get sick just die? Obviously fucking not, that’s insane.
Stop framing it as you might help others that take advantage of the system and frame it as helping yourself and those who might need it legitimately.
There will always be bad eggs in society. Including this representative that punishes the many for the failures of the few. You cannot have civilization without the outliers. But you can help the majority even if there are a few leeches. It says a lot about the right wing when their public face is hypocritical selfishness.
Stop framing it as you might help others that take advantage of the system and frame it as helping yourself and those who might need it legitimately.
Exactly. You know what I see when I see someone who “just doesn’t want to work?” I see someone likely struggling with depression or other mental health issues. And I’m not so prideful that I believe I’m immune to those mental health struggles. I’m certainly not immune from them. None of us are. And if I fall into such a dark place in the future, I don’t want to risk dying or bankruptcy just because I’m struggling with my mental health. If someone thinks they can’t fall into such a dark place, they’re a fool.
Awkwardly stated at the start there but you pulled it back at the end
“Advantage” can be interpreted differently - as in legitimate usage vs selfish gain.
Everyone else understood you, dude is just being pedantic.
“who refuse to work” - And how many people is that? Numbers please.
If someone refuses to work, that’s the problem you need to address. Not that dumb question.
who refuse to work
Minimum wage jobs that limit you to 20 hours a week.
So they legally dont have to supply you with healthcare, you know that thing you need to keep you from getting sick and help you when your sick that is for some reason tied to you being employed in the first place?
I want a healthcare system that works for everyone. I want to not have to worry that I am going to die or go massively in debt because I get sick. I HAVE insurance and these are still the things that I worry about. Unfortunately the people who are in control are bought and paid for by healthcare lobbyists
Edit: check out Rep Mike Flood’s top donor industries
https://www.opensecrets.org/members-of-congress/mike-flood/summary?cid=N00050145
All the budgeting in the world did not save me from the massive bills to treat conditions I was born with. I live paycheck to paycheck because of it.
I had good insurance and worked in a very good career for decades, but my health issues and disability have wrecked me. I can’t afford food, I’ve chipped a tooth that hurts like hell but can’t afford a dentist, and I’ve been staving off homelessness by the skin of my teeth. I can’t afford anything now* and can no longer afford to live, even though I did everything ’right’.
People like this dickhead who think you can ‘just work harder’ are delusional.
“Refuse to get a job” lol. Listen, I’ve dealt with my state’s unemployment insurance claim website and it’s awful. Anyway they’re gonna implement people proving they’re “not refusing to get a job” is going to be poorly thought out and half baked which will inevitably lead to people not getting healthcare.
“Refusing to get a job” folks are the same ones who kick and scream when you whisper “affirmative action” or “job security” in their ears.
These guys aren’t happy unless they can buy and sell the working class at auction, then whip them into the ground to maximize ROI.
During 2020 I moved states after leaving a job. Then I was seasonally laid off in PA. I didn’t qualify for unemployment because I didn’t work enough in the look back period of PA, and didn’t qualify for NY because I willingly switched state residencies and I didn’t work there recently enough. Unemployment being left up to states is an extra layer of bull - especially for anyone considering un/employment numbers as some kind of valid metric.
a job
The people making the requires don’t care how good the job is or what it pays. In some places, there simply aren’t good jobs. I’d rather we as a society used our combined economic power (taxes) to take care of the basic needs of everyone, regardless of whether they have a job or not. Or if their job pays $7/hr or $500k a year.
In my state, in order to keep unemployment you have to prove that you made some sort of action towards getting a job on at least five separate days every week. Also, declining a job offer, no matter how bad it might be, ends the unemployment immediately.
Oh and also we have one of the lowest amounts of benefits and you can only be on for about 24 weeks before they cut you off entirely. Also, they don’t pay the first week after you’re approved.
I got laid off from my last job, and for the first time ever in my career I got paid a severance. As it turned out, however, the total amount of the severance was about $100 less than the total amount I could have gotten from unemployment. I say “could have” because any amount you get as a severance is deducted from the amount of unemployment you’re eligible for, so had I applied for unemployment I would have been eligible for the grand total of $100 - definitely not worth the hassle.
I can’t really complain, I guess. I got the whole amount up front instead of in dribs and drabs for six months, and I didn’t have to pretend to be looking for work at any point.
Guess people start to realise that to deny one person because of reasons, they can deny another person for any other reason. Even a developing country can have free healthcare without discrimination, US have no excuse.
I’d much rather see some of my hard earned money go towards benefiting my fellow citizens rather than like the pockets of some prick billionaire
Or a worthless ballroom attached to the Whitehouse. Multiple golf trips around the planet and genocide in the middleeast. America first just turned into filling the swamp with our money.
Even if you if you agree with the premise, it still always costs us all more in the long run when people don’t get healthcare.
We need to provide healthcare early and often. Turns out there’s a high correlation between well-fed healthy people and people who learn effectively and have the energy and aptitude to be productive later in life!
Plus, the less often people are laid up, the more time they can spend on doing things: raising family, working, making society feel worth being part of.
The wealthy are corroding the foundation of society, and they will suffer when the building collapses upon them. People are the source of civilization.
Kinda depends on what kind of economy you want. If you need an educated population for advanced work, provide healthcare and welfare in general. If you just need some schmucks to work in the mines or sweatshops, it’s much less of a priority. You get what you pay for in the end.
Our main issue is that the 1% get to say what kind of economy we want instead of the other 99%. We all know the 1% would love to replace all humans with AI.
I think the 1% are idiots. Culture comes from people, and the wealthy go out of their way to prevent the fostering of culture. New foods, new media, tourism, people to do things with, all vanishing because the people are too busy being run ragged for the sake of a line going up.
Money is inherently boring. Money is just a means of accessing cool stuff, but if neat things goes extinct, money becomes pointless. The elites are myopic as hell.
With every million people forced to be burger flippers, a George Lucas or Hideo Kojima won’t have a career. Our overlords are robbing themselves of a more interesting life.
Where we see the tragedy of the commons, they see first-mover advantage.
people who learn effectively
There’s the sticking point; one side of the political spectrum opposes learning
This is an argument I’ve made a few times, well run public healthcare is the fiscally conservative position because it costs much less over time than what we have today.
He doesn’t work and gets free healthcare.
how about 28 year olds that could be owner/operator of a small business, but cant quit their job because of health insurance?
Yeah the job mobility angle of tying health insurance (and retirement accounts etc) to employers is something that doesn’t get enough discussion. It’s almost like the system is designed to keep employer’s thumb on the workers 🤔
The other angle is that it a much greater burden on small businesses to provide benefits than megacorps, so it is inherently anti small business
I’ve gotten around the “you must work for The Company for 3 years to be fully vested in your retirement” rule. The trick is to be laid off–generally, when you leave in a layoff they instantly vest your account. It’s worked for me twice so far.
Still at the whim of the business, of course
Naturally.
I’ve been complaining about this for years. My career is in the arts so we rely on my husband’s job for insurance. But what if something happened to him? My job doesn’t even offer insurance; even when I worked for a bigger nonprofit that did, it was crap insurance and expensive to boot because the company wasn’t big enough to get competitive rates.
I mean, it’s not designed for any of these things, but they’re"happy" little coincidences resulting from companies trying to skirt wage maximum laws during WWII.
If you dont give them healthcare then congrats you’ve just lost a 28 year old that could have been a productive member of the workforce. Reps are so short sighted it hurts.
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These assholes really go out of their way to be dicks don’t they? Health care for all means ALL
I think there are more people than there are meaningful jobs. Like, not everyone needs to be a product person.
Let’s do universal basic income, make the essentials free, and let people live life. I have a friend that enjoys being around people, and would work at a coffee shop, but that doesn’t pay enough for them to pay for food and housing. I’ve worked with people who are kind of a net negative at their org, but they’re there because they need money to live. It’s a bad system.
Maybe it made more sense in like 600CE when your little settlement would collapse if everyone didn’t farm all day, but that’s not today’s world.
I used to work at wal-mart in their tire center. That was the happiest I’ve ever been at a job. I was good at it, it wasn’t too challenging but oddball things happened often enough to make it interesting, I got to BS with my co-workers all day and spend time outside when it was nice out. The only problem was it didn’t pay.
The job I have now pays better than anything else I’ve found by a lot (still can’t afford a house) but I hate pretty much every aspect of it. It’s almost entirely playing the middle man on a bunch of different projects between users and vendors doing interpersonal shit that I hate dealing with and yet, am still somehow better at than most of my peers… It’s not like it’s hard work, it’s just emailing and phone calls and meetings all day and most of the difficulty comes with the bean counters and c-levels changing course spontaneously without regard for what we’re currently working on.
If myself and people like me didn’t have to force ourselves into these positions out of desperation I think a lot of them would disappear, or at least be left to the middle management types that thrive on feeling like they’re in charge of things and leave us to do the technical shit that we’re made for.
And how many want to be entrepreneurs but can’t because they lose their healthcare. Sometime something entrepreneurs backbone of economy.
I think that if we had good UBI, people will naturally gravitate towards niches they are suited for. People who like the ocean, will be able to wait for a job opening to become available and slot in, rather than forcing themselves into being an indoor grocer. Those who care for children, will be able to take the training and be on a waitlist for local childcare facilities.
Without the race to earn money just to live, people can afford to wait for a place where they belong.
I think there are more people than there are meaningful jobs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs
Well documented that there’s a ton of make-work and very little value add to quite a bit business bureaucracy.
The most successful businesses are often those that operate as make-work mills and gatekeepers, rather than material value-adding firms.
Whether that means we have a ceiling on meaningful work, or we simply don’t have anyone doing critical tasks, is an open question. But given our volume of waste and our profound lack of public services, I’m willing to bet a lot of high value labor is neglected in the race to fabricate opportunities for rent seeking.
I can at least speak to one type of value-add, which is wastewater. I worked in a wastewater plant for a year as a lab tech. I even planned to get my operator license so I could stay on as an operator.
While it isn’t “neglected”, I would have quite literally been making $15/hr as an operator, at a time where I could have gone literally to any minimum wage job and made about that much in my area. That’s not taking into account the 84-hr week you’re pulling every week - 12 hrs on, 12 hrs off, 7 days (but you’re on-call when you’re not there). Benefits? Haha. And this was at a major metropolitan plant. I talked to a few smaller plants in the more rural exurbs and they literally were wanting to pay me $8/hr or less, with no benefits either, and they insisted that this was enough to “buy a house in the area”.
Let’s do universal basic income, make the essentials free, and let people live life.
What you are proposing is wildly unrealistic and not even Communism espouses the idea.
“From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.” - Karl Marx / Étienne-Gabriel Morelly / whoever else.
It doesn’t say “From each according to their desire, to each according to their want.” and that’s because no society that hasn’t reached Star Trek replicator levels of post-scarcity could survive such a plan.
As Frederick Hicks noted "There are no issues with this principle as long as there is enough of everything for everybody. But this is not the case and probably never will be, because “man’s wants tend always to outstrip his ability to supply them… [Therefore] it will be necessary to have an agency for determining relative amounts of men’s needs.”
In most societies today the determining Agency is the Free Market via the value of your labor. In a Communist (Marxist?) society that Agency would be a Committee of Workers but in either case there exists, and must exist, a mechanism to stop the free loaders and abusers.
This isn’t a defense of today’s hyper-capitalist societies either, we need to be doing far better at reigning that shit in and taking care of people. It is however a push-back against the idea that existence should be without cost and that anything requiring effort needs to be enjoyable.
There’s a big gap between “Food, housing, and health care is provided to all” and “take whatever you want, man”.
I think that UBI and capitalism are helpful, BUT the latter should solely be for luxuries, such as McMansions, vacations, gardening, media, or Ford-2500 mega trucks. Capitalism is horrible at caring for society, but is excellent for fostering individuality. Problem is, our overlords conflate society and individuality as being the same.
What we need is to prevent necessity and luxury from mixing. Money should be purely for upgrading lifestyle, not a determination of whether you get to eat, rest, have family, or receive healthcare.
There’s a big gap between “Food, housing, and health care is provided to all” and “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.”
The former is free existence, the latter demands work as the price for societal support.
What you are wishing for is basically fully automated luxury gay space communism and that cannot exist outside of a true post scarcity world. We do not live in that world.
What part of “basic” do you not understand?
None.
What’s being proposed here is free existence until someone decides that they’ve found a job that they like. That’s why Marx, et. all said it the way that they did.
There has never in human history existed a society, government, or economic system built around the idea of “We’ll cover all your life expenses so feel free to do as much or as little as you want!”
It cannot work unless we have literal Star Trek Replicator technology so that material things have no real cost or value.
