Lately we have been dealing with a few abusive members from Feddit.nl and we were unable to get in touch with the instance administrator.
Part of the problem is the instance’s open registrations which do not require you to enter an e-mail address during signup. This in combination with an inactive admin is a recipe for abuse.
We hope this is only temporary but we have to do this to protect our users.
Edit: we use fediseer, have a look https://gui.fediseer.com/instances/detail/lemmy.world
Edit 2: We got in touch with the Feddit.nl admin. Email requirements were added to the sign-up process and we’re setting up a communication channel. So that means we are federating with Feddit.nl again!
I love it!
99.999999% of the time I see a giant image I block the user because they’re annoying…
That shit is just too perfect tho
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That has got to be the best meme with Daleks I’ve seen in quite a long time.
Kudos!
Fantastic!
And so a lemmy legend was born
Thanks for the transparency, sad to hear as always to see a country specific instance to go unmanaged
Edit: I guess a few people will miss !trendingcommunities@feddit.nl from @freamon@endlesstalk.org
New home: !trendingcommunities@endlesstalk.org
Will probably post to both for a while, until we have some kind of resolution.
Just subscribed, good to see you there.
I might migrate !casualconversation@lemmy.world there too in the coming weeks
With the refrigeration, which do you consider the canonical community to follow now? You mod both, right? Are you going to keep the bit posting to both?
Love what re-federation got auto-corrected to.
The canonical community is the one at feddit.nl, since it has all the history and I don’t really think it’s .nl’s fault that someone used it to attack .world.
The bot’s due to make one more post at endlesstalk (to announce that the problem is over) and then I’ll think about what to do with the community (probably delete it)
Thank you!
You can still go to the instance and read it, subscribe to it from a non-defederated instance, or even create an account there directly.
Let’s also hope it’s only temporary.
That assumes that it’s not abandoned like rammy.site was, if you don’t know rammy.site was a general purpose Lemmy instance a while back which was abandoned by its admin and then some right-wing grifters decided to hijack it and use it to spread hatred. Similarly to this situation they also got defederated, though much more widely then in this case.
The biggest problem is that because they were abandoned eventually the server crashed or the VPS got discontinued or something and now it’s gone. If you go to the URL now you get SSL errors and for a while it was showing up as
410 gone. So with Feddit.nl even though you can go and view the contents on it right now if it’s abandoned it will likely meet a very similar fate in the near future. Meaning that the community is on it are doomed and will either die or have to migrate elsewhere.
Sucks to see my home countries instance isn’t being moderated properly
Well .world is also managed partly from NL :-)
Fair point, i’ll be patiently waiting for the dutch takeover ;)
You, still waiting for it:
Ik had geen idee.
Don’t tell our plans…
I’m keeping my eyes on you
Mama, dieser Mann sprich aber ein lustiges deutsch :)
Ahh the dialect of East-Holland is almost a different language
Opflikkern waus.
- jk ly
Dat is altijd nog ‘koekwaus’ voor jou. 😋
Can’t wait for GEKOLONISEERD
GEKOLONISEERD.world
Please use “I N G E P O L D E R D” as its not quite as racist as “GEKOLONISEERD”.
For the people not in the know, the Dutch like to meme about the warcrimes in Indonesia and Africa and when they speak dutch in a comment section they make joking gestures to the time of colonization, like its a good thing, or something to take lightly. Quite frankly colonizing isnt funny in any shape or form and I, another dutch person feel ashamed and sorry for whoever took offense to the comment above. Not of all of us are like this.
Our history books mostly skip over the warcrimes done in indonesia and how bad the slave trade is, but its luckily improving.
For the guy above me;
Warcrimes of the Dutch in Indonesia:
https://youtu.be/8T3JZljI7A4?si=XvLOhL-m2VHkxByN
How the dutch turned south africa into a racist country:
https://youtu.be/Mi93LjuQbMM?si=1La19-xJ-JsBXLpZ
Over half a million people got ripped away from their families and traded by the Dutch in the 1800s;
https://www.statista.com/chart/22057/countries-most-active-trans-atlantic-slave-trade/
This is why I think it shouldnt be taken lightly. Its like a german joking about the time their ancestors murdered millions of jews and bringing it up whenever they see another German in a comment thread.
Its like a german joking about the time their ancestors murdered millions of jews and bringing it up whenever they see another German in a comment thread.
Das tun wir tatsächlich nicht aber der Grund warum dein Fahrrad weg ist ist dass deine Mutter mir das aus Dankbarkeit geschenkt hat nachdem ich sie gefickt hab.
I remembered just enough of my school German to understand some of that but not enough to not wonder about someone’s mom taking their bicycle for “thank-work”, apparently 🤔
Translate says " actually don’t but the reason your bike is gone is because your mother gave it to me out of gratitude after I fucked her."
Je kan het hele ijsselmeer inpolderen met die muur tekst die je hebt geschreven
I made an account on feddit.nl to spread the load for Lemmy.world back in June. Good thing I keep switching between them both anyway.
Hopefully this is solved soon!
Maybe it’s just a coincidence, but it seems like everytime .world defeds from a problematic instance, it’s almost immediately smashed with DDOS attacks.
The beauty of lemmy as I see it though IS the federation, if .world is down no worries, I’ll just browse on sopuli.xyz or any of the multitude of other instances :) we are like a sexy hydra of positivity.
You guys are very transparent and that’s great. Thanks for keeping us in the loop.
It’s one of great things about this instance… having a look into whether or not services are in alignment with my values goes a long way in supporting such an endeavor.
Part of the problem is the instance’s open registrations which do not require you to enter an e-mail address during signup.
How is this even a thing? Why would the Lemmy software even allow operation like this?
Back when I signed up for reddit, you didn’t need an email and they warned you if you lost your password you’d be locked out of your account until you regained it and they would not offer support to reset it
I liked that. I don’t want to have to submit my email for everything just to interact
One of the reasons I have my own email domain and random email addresses for certain services.
Catch all? I love it so damn much since I got it. Bitwarden added it on the fly and now I got disposable email addresses for anything I can think of, it’s so, so perfect!
Hi, is this only for the web interface or something? Is this available for the android interface?
You can access it from the android Bitwarden app. Go to the password generator. Where it says “What would you like to generate?”, tap Password and select username in the popup, then click OK. After that, it gives you an option to use a different emails when it generates the email address to use for the account you’re setting up.
hmmm… i may need to buy bitwarden… i currently self-host, but that sounds very tempting!
No need. Even selfhost is free. The catch all feature is also included in the free plan. Bitwarden free is amazingly packed with pretty much all the features you need. Tip: Make a ‘non-profit’ organisation and invite your family to it. You can share passwords for streaming service etc using this.
Managing this for a large amount of services is a huge overhead for me. I use Sub-addressing and then apply filters based on categories.
It annoys the shit out of me how many developers don’t allow for sub-addressing. Google has supported it on Gmail since inception and it follows the damn spec! Don’t use your crappy form validator if it doesn’t allow valid emails!
I’ve always been curious. Do any parties just remove the string between “+” and “@” when they see those emails registered?
Not that I’ve seen. Some do however incorrectly escape the string and end up with an invalid email like namesite.com@gmail.com instead of name+site.com@gmail.com.
If you have catch all enabled for your custom domain there’s no overhead.
Signing up for reddit? Just put reddit@example.com and that address will be automatically created and start receiving reddit’s emails. Don’t have to fiddle with anything.
I like this.
I use legacy free g suite, might see if it supports this
I do this as well but there’s been quite a few times when the email input wouldn’t accept it and it’s usually on the sites you really wanna have it on.
Got a domain? Setup ‘catch all’ and you are all set. If not consider a cheap one. It’s unlimited disposable email addresses for few buck a year.
I was dumb founded to find out that vrchat doesn’t except ProtonMail. I had to use my mothballed gmail account.
Interesting. How does this work? I’ve never used it. I either add manual aliases or distribution groups. It’s a pain in the ass but it works and is safer than using the same email for everything.
One thing I like is also how you can tell who sold your email to spammers 🤣
And then there’s those of us who don’t use email for all practical purposes. I haven’t sent an email in anger for a donkey’s age; the only reason I have an email at all is because of all the people in North America who think email is the wave of the future.
Let’s be real - an email address doesn’t really stop much of anything. Anyone can really easily spin up new email addresses freely.
Sadly yeah. We absolutely should use email signup because it filters our the absolute lowest effort bots, but it does nothing against higher quality bots or humans. Not only can you easily spin up new emails on the fly, but many emails allow ways to make the email appear unique (eg, Gmail ignores dots and anything after the + sign), there’s plenty of temporary email services with a variety of domains, and if you own a domain, you can trivially create unlimited emails until they catch on and ban the entire domain.
Inactive admins are also an issue, but if malicious users are determined enough, it doesn’t matter that much how active an admin is. An active admin can mostly help by making IP banning an option (imperfect, but will work on many humans) and can temporarily turn on approvals to make it easier to weed out low hanging fruit. Nothing will work against someone determined enough, but could at least reduce how many instances they can turn to.
Personally I don’t think anything will stop anyone determined to bring this type of harm to the community, there’s an endless list of workarounds. These communities need a larger network of moderators across timezones
Nope, but it will stop the less determined ones.
With no email verification, you can pretty much create dozens of fake accounts per second - as fast as the API can handle.
Yeah I still don’t have an email associated with my reddit account. Which shocks people… although I haven’t logged on in months, so maybe it’s now required for legacy accounts
it’s not required globally but some subs require it to be able to post
So far only /r/formula1 does for me
Hah, I replied higher up in the comments that when I signed up for reddit, I also didn’t need an email address and I think that particular one never required setting one
Newer accounts definitely did and I used different emails for those accounts
They somehow managed to force me to add my email. I don’t remember how.
Sure. But we changed our sign-up policy recently. Users are now informed during sign-up that temporary email accounts are banned.
We have another announcement regarding this soon.
How do you define a “temporary email account”?
I’m reminded of old games that insisted you couldn’t sign up with an email provider and had to use an ISP email … which kinda screwed over the literally BILLIONS of people whose ISPs don’t give email addresses…
Lemmy is open source. Everyone can modify it to fit their needs.
Because anyone running it can decide to do it this way. That’s how code works; you can edit it. Even if the option wasn’t there, if any instance admin wants that to happen it’s easy to do.
Last I checked, even Reddit allows signups without an email address…
In case anyone’s wondering, you can use the old.reddit.com interface to sign up without an email.
I only ever used old.reddit.com. Didn’t realize that option was limited to to the old interface
Last time I signed up, even new one allows you to leave email empty.
That’s true but they annoy you with a persistent banner to add an email address later on. But it’s working nonetheless.
Cuz we’re on an anonymous forum basically?
I feel your frustration with “unable to get in touch with the instance administrator”. I’m waiting for a response from @ruud and @MichelleG from 9 days ago regarding abusive members.
This was not about “abusive members” this was about a member having too many communities according to you. We both seem to have a very different definition of “abuse”.
The user in question does have a lot of communities but he is very active and has different moderators who he manages. Also, when the moderators of these communities do well he transfers the community over to them. As recently as yesterday when he transferred !movies@lemmy.world and !marvelstudios@lemmy.world.
While he has a lot of communities he does a good job managing his communities and training moderators and is making our lives as admins easier. If someone has a lot of communities and doesn’t do anything with them, that is squatting and we take action. I think we have a good track record of that.
So unless there is something we are missing I really would not call any of what the user in question did “abusive”.
Lastly the best way to get someone to look at your problem is to use the report feature. The reason you got no reply in nine days is because there was no problem.
1st, great communication- No response because there is no problem. That’s a terrific reason for instance administrators to ignore messages. I should have read their minds and known, geesh my bad. 2nd- I used the report feature on august 26th and did not receive a response until a week later. The response wasn’t even a fix, it was just asking if I was still having a problem. So thats clearly not the best way to contact admins. That leaves @ ing admins on major posts to get a response. Its annoying, but so far the only effective way. Lastly, If a user creates dozens upon dozens of new communities, solely because they might become popular and then sits on them/isnt active in them, I would say thats an abuse of the system. I suppose we should all start registering any community that could potentially become big. Then when they do become popular, we can gatekeep who is worthy enough to mod them. Plainly, power-mods shouldnt be a thing.
That is an entirely different discussion and definitely no “abusive user” as you made it look here. That is an opinion. I am done with you report trolling. Find another instance
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😏
That was not what they expected 😂
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Good to be back! 😅 🥳
Nope, in order to not overload lemmy servers, the lemmy software does not federate pre-(re)federation content. That is one reason why I find it a bit ridiculous to wield the biggest stick you have, defederation, so freely.
I think in the case of an instance being spammed with csa material we are allowed to use all the sticks at our disposal - and in this case it was actually the only stick we had. And once we got in touch with TedVDB we refederated.
He’s now also in the chat room where most Lemmy instance admins hang out. I’d say that’s a positive for everyone in the end.
They’ve already replied with the reasons, but - for future reference - if you want to see specifics of things like this, a censure is often posted to https://fediseer.com. .world’s censure of .nl is here
Updated the original post. FYI You can click on the fediseer endorsement emblem that is in the Lemmy World sidebar. That will take you here: https://gui.fediseer.com/instances/detail/lemmy.world
Hiya! Question, is there a way we can see this sort of information ourselves as well? Namely, reports and admin activity logs.
What’s to stop an instance, then a collection of instances and so on from claiming others aren’t being actively moderated in order to censor?
Not making any accusations obviously, just a thought I had while reading.
I mean, it’s easy to go over to feddit.nl and see they only have one admin who has not been active in almost two weeks.
Full transparancy: the abuse we were dealing with from that instance was vote manipulation and worse, csam. Especially in the case of csam we can not wait for days for a reaction.
Users. That’s why it is mentioned there is no email required during sign-up. They create an account in seconds, make a post and then delete their account.
You guys are doing good work!
Thanks for doing this. I’ve not had to see any of it because you guys are on top of dealing with it. (Although I also don’t sort posts by new, so I probably wouldn’t see those posts before they got removed anyway.)
Were they the source of the csam attack posts the other week when we removed picture uploads temporarily?
No those were from our own instance and is the reason we closed open registrations. We are working on a different solution more on that later.
The modlog for the entire instance is available in a link at the bottom and the sidebar on the main page. Everything should be there.
Thank you!
Thanks for all you do!
Somewhat related: any word on re-enabling image uploads? I understand completely why you had to do it, just wondering if there’s a roadmap?
Image uploads had an issue a while ago but should be working. Which client are you using?
Oh, sorry I haven’t tried in a while. Looks like it’s back up! Thanks!
Nice self portrait btw
Well that’s disappointing, but glad the lemmy.world team are making sure they are on top of it and keeping transparency with all that you do. Thank you.
It seems like the user who posted the csam has been banned, does that mean the admin/mod is active again?
With the nature of the recent attacks I think it makes perfect sense to take strong precautions necessary to protect the community. Can always refederate when/if the admin gets ahold of the situation.
For sure. We reached out before too but we can not sit around and wait when it’s about this stuff.
Lemmy.world is still down often because DDOS attacks???
No we’re talking about spam attacks. Trolls posting nsfw images to communities
Stuff like this is going to kill the momentum of the fediverse. I’m a reddit refugee, my main account started on vlemmy.net (because it had a policy to not defederate from anything), and when that went poof, I moved to feddit.nl (because it has a policy to not defederate from anything). I believe it is MY prerogative, and no one else’s, to decide what I am or am not allowed to see. I curate my own feed by blocking or subscribing to instances I don’t or do want to see, respectively.
Regardless of any of this, however, I am now unable to view any content on .world without this account, due to actions entirely outside of my control. Since hosting my own instance is out of the question for me, my options are: find a third instance with a no-defederation policy that hasn’t been defederated itself from major instances, have multiple accounts and browse each instance individually, stop browsing altogether, or go back to reddit. As distasteful as the last option is, it’s tempting. I know the impulse will be to tell me “good riddance”, but I am posting this because I know there are others like me that are tired of instance hopping and trying to find somewhere that doesn’t try to police our browsing and also isn’t defederated from major instances.
For the record, I don’t want a no-defederation instance because I want to browse Nazi or pedo instances. I want a no-defederation instance because I have a principled objection to others telling me what I can or cannot view.
I actually prefer that instances can do this, the whole point is to find one you more closely align with like old school forums. The ones they’ve done this to are either mass brigading, full of Nazis or sharing CSAM. They have every right to protect their users from that kind of stuff or make those decisions when they’re individuals paying to run an instance.
Until there’s a tool I can use to fully block instances myself (which I don’t see available) this is the way it’s run. Maybe the fediverse just isn’t for you? As someone who grew up using old school forums this is completely fine and expected. If I am running a website (or store) I have every right to manage it the way I see fit.
If defederation worked more like a shadowban, I would agree with you. .world defederating with feddit.nl could result in no one from .world seeing any content posted by anyone from .nl, but .nl can still see the content from .world. It’s unfortunate that .nl couldn’t participate anymore, but it’s better than that community ceasing to exist.
Defederations as they exist now are like being in a restaurant. There are two employees, one makes the food, the other makes the drinks. It starts out with being able to order either, or both, right from the comfort of your table. However, the owner of the restaurant decides that he just doesn’t care much for drinks, and kicks out the drink-maker. The drink-maker opens a new store across the street, but he does not serve food, only drinks, and the restaurant you started at doesn’t serve drinks, only food. Yes, technically, you are still free to go across the street to get some drinks, or stay here for some food, but boy, wouldn’t it be nicer if that owner never decided he didn’t like drinks? Sure, not EVERYONE in the restaurant cares, but a pretty significant amount of them probably would. They might just go down the street to McReddits. Sure, the food there is pretty bad, but at least they can get both food and drinks without having to go across the street.
A user on there posted CSAM. Given that images federate too and that moderation over there seems to be lacking, do you not think it’s unrealistic not to expect defederation?
I never said I didn’t understand. I’m pointing out a problem that can, and I believe, will, lead to issues with user retention. If one is punished for the bad actions of someone on their instance that they have no control over, it will lead to frustration. I know this because it has happened to me twice now- once with vlemmy disappearing due to someone posting something bad that spooked the admin, and now feddit.nl because someone posted something bad that spooked these admins. I’m not saying it’s not understandable, I’m merely saying that a problem exists.
I expect the Admin’s priority was to worry about potentially inadvertently hosting CSAM rather than user retention.
Two problems can exist simultaneously. I’m suggesting that something should be done about defederation, and the things that lead to it (like automatic image proliferation), because if defederation continues as it is, it will hurt user retention.
It really won’t. Mastodon has whole block lists and has done for years and guess what - user retention is no problem at all.
From what you’ve commented here, you’re annoyed that you keep picking instances to join that allow shitty things to happen and then don’t. The issue there is not defederation, it’s that:
- Moderation is lacking
- Your insistence on wanting to join an instance that’s a free-for-all
In the real world, instance Admin’s are legally responsible for what’s on their servers. If you want to defed from absolutely no one then you need to rent a VPS and spin up a Lemmy instance of your own. That way, the legal risk is all your own.
I mentioned elsewhere, I don’t have the ability to run my own instance. Mastodon also has user migration tools, making it much easier to start up a new account on a different instance. Lemmy does not. I’m also not even talking just about myself. There’s been drama about large instances defederating from each other since I joined- which, to be fair, was only a few months ago, but it’s also when the population exploded and defederation became a real concern. My main problem is the simple idea that, due to actions entirely outside of my control, large sections of the fediverse can just disappear for my account, forcing me to either accept the newer, smaller fediverse, or make a new account somewhere else that happens to federate with both my previous instance AND the defederated instance if I want a single account to view the same content I used to.
This is part of the growing pains, once moderation tools mature, this type of federation will be less of an issue.
LASIM can help you move all your account details. Lemmy is nowhere hear as mature a product as Mastodon so it’s no surprise a lot of what Mastodon has, Lemmy doesn’t - yet.
I’m really not sure you’re ever going to be able to have what you seem to want because it doesn’t exist. There’s a limited set of tools available and if an instance Admin isn’t being vigilant, there’ll always be fuckwits ready to do shitty things. If the only way that other Admins can tackle that is defederation then that’s what’ll happen. It’s not going to affect user retention because I think the majority of people are quite prepared to accept that unmoderated instances are a liability of a much greater scale than defederation.
I want a no-defederation instance because I have a principled objection to others telling me what I can or cannot view.
Which you want someone else to be legally responsible for providing you with.
There is a common thread in your complaints. This isn’t a problem that’s going to kill the fediverse it’s a problem with instances without moderation. Turns out shitty instances that don’t care about moderation are the same ones that “have a policy to not defederate from anything”. Stop joining shitty instances that allow literally illegal content and you won’t have that problem.
Yes, but I outlined my reasons for wanting no defederation. VLemmy was perfect- refused to defederate, actively moderated- until the issue with image federation spooked him. Also, saying “illegal content” is a bit meaningless on a globally distributed platform. On both instances- feddit.nl and VLemmy- many users outlined very similar rationale to me when the issue of defederation came up, and you and I both know that defederation is not used only for unmoderated instances. Lemmygrad is aggressively moderated and defederated from most instances because the owners find the political views expressed there distasteful, and that’s not the only one.
It just introduces so much personal bias into the fediverse, where individuals who don’t like Thing A defederates from instances that allow Thing A, cutting their entire instance off from it. Again, yes, you can join other instances, but that quickly gets annoying trying to find another instance that aligns with your Thing A-positive or neutral views. This is what I’m referring to when I say that it will kill the momentum- users getting frustrated and having to make multiple accounts to essentially dodge a completely unjustified ban (assuming they weren’t the ones doing the Bad Thing that caused the defederation) will lead to burnout and lost user retention.
As I also said, there will certainly be an impulse to say “good riddance, we don’t need them anyway”, but I think it’ll lead to more problems. The fediverse has existed as a small pocket of internet for a while. However, things don’t shrink as easily as they grow. If lemmy continues to get time and money and resources poured into its development for an ever-shrinking userbase, it won’t just go back to how it was. Growth is hard to undo.
Frankly, good riddance we don’t need people who won’t stick around because bad instances are defederated. That’s not a problem that needs to be solved, it’s a feature.
I know a lot of people agree with you. I’m just not one of them. I prefer a more open internet is all, where individuals are responsible for their own personal “defederations”, and don’t lose access to vast portions of the fediverse due to someone else’s actions and decisions unless they go out of their way to keep instance hopping.
You should then pay to create the site you want then as you’re in a small minority. That’s how the free market works. Your comments do seriously come across as concern trolling at this point.
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They ever said they were ok with child abuse, and saying this is seriously not ok.
I disagree with them on their view of lemmy and defederation but painting them as a child abuse advocate leads nowhere.
Trust me, I would if I could. It’s a shame that I can’t.
I prefer a more open internet is all
BS, what you’re saying has nothing to do with an “open internet”. Stop co-opting terms, a fediverse instance defederating isn’t a closed internet. The other instance still exists and you can still access it if you want to.
Thank you for telling me what I want, I guess? There’s a lot between “open” and “closed” internet. Defederation is certainly more towards closed than open, no? And I would prefer it to go the other way, that’s all.
I believe it is MY prerogative, and no one else’s, to decide what I am or am not allowed to see. I curate my own feed by blocking or subscribing to instances I don’t or do want to see, respectively.
What about abusive users that post in communities outside of their home instance? I think that’s what we’re talking about here. I can block instances, but there are communities in Lemmy.world that I enjoy and I appreciate the admins effort to keep abusive users out.
Each user can block other users. Moderators can block users. It can be handled the same way that other sites (yes, like reddit) do it. I’m also not opposed to defederation when it is essentially a single-user ban- for example, if there is an instance with no communities, no signup requirement, and has nothing but malicious bots- that’s banning a bot farm, not “defederation” as it’s commonly understood. But with something like this- where feddit.nl is actually a rather large instance- so many people are essentially being punished for absolutely no fault of their own.
Do you understand that when CSAM images are uploaded to an instance, they are federated to other instances as well?
Even if users have the option to block whole instances themselves, there are STILL going to be instances Lemmy World will not be federating with because we don’t want to risk having any of that on our server.
And feddit.nl had a user that posted csam on our instance, which then federates to other instances. So basically everyone gets a copy.
I do understand. I’m expressing a worry that things like this will lead to trouble for the fediverse’s user retention. Nowhere did I say that I didn’t understand the reasoning. It’s not a requirement to have a solution at hand when pointing out a problem. An instance as large as lemmy.world defederating from an instance as large as feddit.nl is a problem. Is the solution giving moderators better tools? Stopping the automatic proliferation of images? Removing the image hosting entirely to rely on external hosts? Or is this an insurmountable problem with no solution? The specific answer, or even existence of an answer, does not determine whether the problem itself exists.
@PrinceHabib72 @antik are you concern trolling? Because this sounds like concern trolling. You know what they say, you let one Nazi in your bar, soon enough you’ll own the Nazi bar.
I’m legitimately unfamiliar with the term. I’m being very genuine. I’m not sure what you mean about the Nazi bar, either. I’m encouraging users to curate their own experiences. Any time they see a Nazi, they can figuratively erase that Nazi from their personal existence. If they see a Nazi bar, they can erase that too. I object to being TOLD, rather than deciding for myself, what bars are Nazi bars.
@PrinceHabib72 The metaphor is not from the individual but from the bar owner’s (or instance admin, if you will) POV.
One Nazi shows up at a bar, the owner goes to kick him out. But a concerned patron disuades him by saying that free speech is important and if anyone doesn’t want to talk to the Nazi they are free to ignore him. They are perfectly capable of choosing who to talk to and don’t stand to be TOLD who they can or can’t talk to.
There would not be a problem if the instance was managed. Everyone can start an instance but it takes a lot more to keep it running and moderated. Check the problems beehaw.org are currently going through.
And as you point out, feddit.nl is quite a big instance but it only has ONE admin. That is a problem. And that is also something to remember when you decide on which instance you want to host your community.
I don’t host a community. At a basic level, I would like the ability to view (and I mean VIEW, not even necessarily interact with- I cannot force my interaction on anyone) the entire fediverse for myself. If other people want others to tell them which areas align with their views, they can join instances that block other instances from being able to participate. I just wish that didn’t mean the defederated instance could no longer even view the blocking instance.
It sounds like you should host an instance. This will give you the abilities you want, unless you provoke defederation from someone.
For the record, I don’t want a no-defederation instance because I want to browse Nazi or pedo instances. I want a no-defederation instance because I have a principled objection to others telling me what I can or cannot view.
There are laws you know, claiming a fediverse server should work outside the law is idiotic and not at all principled.
I didn’t say they SHOULD work outside the law. What are you talking about? When I say “pedo instances”, I don’t mean ones that post real life CASM.
Here in the States we have legislatures considering laws against LGBT+ content or even woke content, who are looking to ban the existence of trans folk. We’re also seeing law enforcement action against the distribution of anarchist propaganda which isn’t illegal but the judicial process doesn’t care until after shots are fired.
So I, for one, regard a given state’s opinion on right or wrong to be a poor standard on which to base what is or is not appropriate content. This is something Fediverse instances will have to navigate by their own mores.
having a ‘principled objection’ to others telling you that you can’t see child sexual abuse tapes is very admirable and sounds much better
i doubt its going to change anything though, since ‘principled objection’ to laws doesnt actually stop said laws from applying to you, or the site youre using
Ah yes, the two things- acceptable things and CASM. EVERYTHING IS ONE OF THOSE THINGS.
this case of defederation is specifically literally about users posting CASM
I feel like the fact that you still consider Reddit an option invalidates your entire point.
Regardless of any of this, however, I am now unable to view any content on .world without this account, due to actions entirely outside of my control.
Whaa whaa whaa…
Bullshit, you chose a server that invites illegal content on purpose. It was entirely within your control to NOT choose such a server.
Feddit.nl rules explicitly state no illegal content, so it seems to be not so much inviting illegal content as a failure to moderate account creation and post content, like OP alluded to.
feddit.nl invites illegal content? Someone should let them know that, they’re doing an outstandingly bad job at it if that’s the case.
You don’t get to decide what others allow on their instances. It’s regular people hosting these servers and these same people having to moderate and manage those instances. They are the ones who face backlash and the repercussions for what’s posted on their servers so if they choose to make the decision to defederate to protect the instance community as a whole then that’s their choice. Long story short, tough shit. Don’t like things being defederated, create an account on a different server. Or better yet, create your own server than you can choose who you do or don’t federated with and what happens on that server can be your own responsibility.
I think this issue could be addressed on the front end.
The reason you would want a server that is federated with everything is so you can access all content at once instead of switching between accounts on different instances. If you could log into multiple instances at once with a single username and see content from both in the same feed it wouldn’t matter if they are defederated. I think this federation thing ought to be, as far as possible, transparent to the end user.
The way this currently works feels odd to me - it doesn’t really behave like a decentralised Reddit, because your account is tied to a specific instance and the content you see depends on which instance you pick. It feels like an awkward middle ground between a centralized service like Reddit and just having a completely separate forum site for each community.
If we could control instance level blocking on a user level it would be much more feasible.
In general sure, but not for problems like this. That wouldn’t address the issue in the OP at all.
It won’t protect a server from getting illegal content on their drives. Best to defederate if that is happening and can’t be dealt with otherwise. If you have some other method of dealing with illegal content on your server and wanted to host a Lemmy instance that is federated with everything it would only be appealing to me if I could block instances myself.
I don’t get this? You understand that it won’t protect a server from getting illegal content on their drives but you still want a server that is federated with everything so that you yourself can choose what to block?
Those two things don’t seem conflicting. Some bad actor right now could upload illegal content to lemmy.world. It’s not like lemmy.world can defederate with itself as a solution. It must deal with it by deleting the content. An instance could potentially delete illegal content coming from everywhere on the lemmyverse. This would take a lot of work so if you didn’t want to bother doing that for instances other than your own you would defederate.
If some instance owner for whatever reason decided to take on this work either manually or with some automated process that allowed an instance to exist that is federated with everything, but clear of illegal content then it would be an appealing instance. Assuming I could curate my own instance block list.
Absolutely agreed. I hope that becomes a feature soon, I know it is or was being worked on.
That won’t change how we would handle instances with bad actors?
Sure. This isn’t a solution to the problem lemmy.world is having. I just think this feature should exist.
Well I heard that is coming in the next Lemmy update
Dunno why you’re being downvoted. Defederation feels like a gung-ho way of handling content moderation issues that centralized platforms would be able to directly solve.
It is a gung-ho way, but I understand why I’m being downvoted. People hear “I want to have the ability to view anything” or “I don’t like being told what I can or cannot view on the internet” as “I want to view CSAM” or “I am actually a Nazi”, which should result in an emotional reaction. It’s just not what I’m saying.
The problem is that the fediverse is an unmoderated mess, especially with how Lemmy and Mastodon are currently set up.
What’s stopping griefers from setting up a brand new instance to spam existing communities with CP?
Of course you speaking bad about the fediverse = downvotes because you’re mainly talking with fanboys.
What’s stopping griefers from setting up a brand new instance to spam existing communities with CP?
Nothing! But how are you agreeing with PrinceHabib who’s saying that should that happen it would be up to him to decide whether or not he wants to see that. Skipping over the fact that the illegal content would be hosted on several instances.
Of course you speaking bad about the fediverse = downvotes because you’re mainly talking with fanboys.
Show me one Lemmy admin that would disagree with your statement about Lemmy being an unmoderated mess? Every instance admin has been asking for better tools from the Lemmy devs for months.
I want to be crystal clear. The content I am talking about wanting to view does NOT include CSAM, which is illegal in practically every country on earth (I’m fairly certain it’s actually all of them with any type of functioning government). At no point was I or am I advocating for the existence of CSAM anywhere in the fediverse. The only things I have ever advocated for is for fewer defederations, and dealing with those infractions as you would if it were posted to lemmy.world- namely, deleting the content and blocking the user. I am fully aware that mod tools on lemmy are very limited, and that your hands were tied with a fairly tight rope in regards of what to do about this as you can be legally culpable for content posted on other instances that gets mirrored to yours. I have only ever pointed out that punishing a group for the actions of a few can lead to problems with user retention by forcing innocent users to continue to instance hop, and that’s if they don’t give up and leave the fediverse. I would bet that very few of feddit’s users feel as I do about defederation, and they joined that instance for reasons completely unrelated to that. This is essentially being banned from many communities all at once through literally zero fault of their own. The solution I want is unlikely to occur, nor is it feasible with what lemmy currently has for tools, but that does not stop me from wanting that solution. Many people do not see defederation as a problem, and that also does not stop me from seeing it as one.
I completely agree. Believe me, I get why the admins are making the choices they are. In the current situation of how the fediverse works, it’d be stupid not to act. I just hope that it’s able to be addressed- no more proliferation of CSAM through duplication on every instance, better moderation, more control- so that defederation doesn’t have to be used in these situations.
Just to play devil’s advocate; it seems like maybe an instance with a very active mod team would be another criterion to add to your list.
Sounds like you want a Distributed/Decentralized service like Nostr instead of a Federated service like Lemmy, you should join there instead, I’m sure you’d be right at home there.
I like it here on monero.town because we have a good admin and the requirements to get an account here are high enough to make someone jump through a few hoops. None of the super big instances like world, ml, or beehaw have reson to defederate us. Some smaller ones defederate us do to ideology but its not a big loss.
