- cross-posted to:
- latestagecapitalism@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- latestagecapitalism@lemmy.world
Yes I know China is also technically capitalist but you understand the idea
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We should also put “communism” in quotations too.
China is as communist as the vatican is good for kids
But sure let us be blinded by propaganda and ignore that the trains in china are held together by ducktape, rails are unsafe and got build with slave labor :)
trains in china are held together by ducktape, rails are unsafe and got build with slave labor :)
Speaking of being blinded by propaganda…
Would be Propaganda if it wasnt send videos posted chinese citicens on chinese platforms
What?
China is a Socialist country run by a Communist party, which is why the overwhelming majority of major Communist orgs recognize it as such. The economy is dominated by the public sector, which controls the large majority of key industries and large firms. They aren’t fully developed post-scarcity Communist yet, but they are developing through Socialism.
Further, Chinese infrastructure is good. The rails are safe and the trains aren’t held together with duct tape, and they aren’t made with slave labor. This is just chauvanism.
They are not socialist in the slightest. That requires the workers to own the means of production, which they do not.
Edit: To expand on this companies are organized the same way as in capitalism because they are capitalist. Workers at the bottom, management in the middle, and rich capitalists at the top.
The overwhelming majority of the large firms and key industries are publicly owned and planned, so yes, the workers do own the means of production for the majority of the economy. Further, managers are workers too, not owners. I think you have a very specific view of Socialism that’s exclusionary towards Marxism, for Marxists cooperatives aren’t truly “Socialist” as they are petite bourgeois cells that retain private property and exclusive ownership within, when the goal of Marxist Communisn is the eventual abolition of Private Property, which can only be accomplished by folding all property into the hands of all, through public ownership.
The workers have no meaningful power or ownership over their workplaces, so it doesn’t matter how much is publicly owned. I personally will never accept the marxist redefinition of socialism, nor will I ever accept an authoritarian vanguard state.
I do not want to continue this debate, tankie. It’s never productive for anyone.
You don’t have to respond, but if you’re going to disengage after making a bunch of claims and insulting me, I think it’s only fair that I respond for others that read this thread.
Workers in China do have meaningful power over their workplaces, and the majority of the economy is publicly owned. There are worker councils in workplaces, the agricultural sector is largely cooperative based, and even many firms like Huawei are cooperatives.
Secondly, Marxists did not “redefine Socialism.” Marxism is a part of the broader Socialist tradition, trying to redefine Socialism so as to exclude Marxism is odd, considering it has had by far the largest impact on Socialism historically and in modern times.
Finally, all states are authoritarian, in that all are used by one class to oppress others. It is best that the class in power is the Proletariat and it uses that state power to oppress the bourgeoisie, as is happening in China, Cuba, Vietnam, etc.
Again, you don’t have to respond, but if you’re going to disengage after insulting me and making a number of claims, I’m allowed to address them as well. Have a good one.
nd ignore that the trains in china are held together by ducktape, rails are unsafe and got build with slave labor :)
?? I don’t love china but ignoring the enormous amount of investment they’ve made is silly. that’s what it is, investment. The amount of roads and rail in the last 20 years should give anyone pause, instead of discounting it.
To be fair, they played a significant part in building American railroads too, so that original point is a bit off to begin with
Don’t think u have travelled to china. Their rail system is fantastic. All out train in US looks like came from steel mill from Philadelphia. Boxy trash and slow af
Dont need to travel to see that chinese people live in poverty, anything can be done when you are a dictatorship, its corrupt and everything is a scam. Fake meat, fake tofu, tofu drag constructions, 4 billion on a road and all the village got was a gravel path. Where a state teaches kids to hate other nations and disrespect everything for something that happened 80 years ago instead of making sure this does not ever happen again. Where its a national sport to go abroad and harass others. Where the state doesnt care about your stolen things, but if you speak out publicly against it, you will be warned with a kind “take that down, or else”.
If their electric cars are anything to go by, i dont even want to step on their most modern trains even if they give me trillions of GBP.
If the regime is supposed to be an example of progress, well guess then we all should go back to european monarchy and imperialism. Europe thrived in the 19th century afterall. Just look at all those rich people living luxurious lifes. All the advancements in science, medicine, transportation, literatur, architectur, social policies, unification of people split appart and more.
If i were to travel to china they would arrest me on the airport for critisising china and not seeing the CCP as legitimite and supporting taiwan, that being if i would even be allowed to enter the country.
The USA train system is shit, yes, thats not even on debate. Against that even the russian train system is amazing.
Also china didnt build its high speed trains on their own. They used EU and japanese tech.
Japan has the best train system in the entire world, and that without being a supressive, all survaling dictatorship. OP here is comparing shit, scooped from the toilet, to a microwave meal, that got a mediocer plate up. Ofc then in comparison the microwave meal will look better.
Where a state teaches kids to hate other nations and disrespect everything for something that happened 80 years ago instead of making sure this does not ever happen again. Where its a national sport to go abroad and harass others. Where the state doesnt care about your stolen things, but if you speak out publicly against it, you will be warned with a kind “take that down, or else”.
Are you talking about the US or china here?
Removed by mod
The rails are good, but a bit rushed planning wise. Haven’t been to China, but the biggest complaints I’ve heard are more “they stuck a station in a super inconvenient spot so they could show progress on the project”
The trains and track seem to have been well built though.
right right… which part of China is communist again? is it the permanent oligarchy? the reeducation camps? the low-paying factory jobs that make the owner class rich?
Well we’ve got all that in the US already, so can we just do the version where we get trains in addition to the other stuff, instead of just the other stuff?
Ha ha, no. Petroleum lobby needs a new pair of shoes.
“Reeducation camps”. You spelled concentration camps wrong. Greetings from germany
Potato, tomato…
Concentration camp is where you go when you really need to focus on learning to be a better
wage slaveparty memberpatriotnationalist lunaticcitizen.
China’s nationwide passenger rail network doesn’t really care if you have a valid point or not.
Yes, comrade, we have the best trains. They are most efficient for getting workers to the labor camps. We must work hard to build the glorious future for
dear leaderour people!
I was reading the post as a reply to republicans who are saying china is bad because of communism.
republicans who are saying china is bad because of communism.
Yes, well, those are some very confused people who wouldn’t know communism from a hole in the ground.
They’re a lot like the people on .ml and hexbear, even some of the people on .world.
Spain is better at building high speed rail infrastructure than China is. The problem is not the economic system, it’s what lobby groups are in charge.
Source?
Really, your example for the “free market” transportation in the US is Amtrack? … in a car community?
This is just a tanky shitpost.
In an anti car community. Considering the US proudly proclaims itself the champion of the free market, yeah, it’s only fitting to use Amtrak as the example.
yeah, it’s only fitting to use Amtrak as the example.
Or you know … a car? Because then it would at least be relevant to this community.
…the post is intended to portray the difference in trains – the logical, excellent, and much preferable alternative to cars. They’re excellent everywhere else but absolute shite in the supposed pinnacle of the free market.
And all the libertarians cry about is how it’s not real free markets and that’s why we don’t have nice trains and public education etc. not understanding that it’s government funding and regulations that’s just barely keeping everything (pun intended) on the rails in the first place.
Libertarians are like house cats. Completely dependent on a system they neither understand nor appreciate and fiercely confident of their own independence.
fiercely confident of their own independence
In fairness, if you let the average cat out into nature it would be fine. Dump the average libertarian into nature and they wont last the night.
well if the govt didn’t push cars so much, there would be more trains
It’s more like American car centric culture vs rest of the world.
well not the entire rest of the world… source: living in Brazil
I see Brazil the same way as an artist going on world tour
I guess the rest of Asia and Europe don’t count?
China does have a superb high-speed rail network, you gotta give them that
Oh, the old “make the trains run on time” has come back in use?
Jokes aside, the CCP push for infrastructure investment in both renewables, public mass transportation is enviable, but also it comes with a cost:
That said, some of our countries might be in a slippery slope towards a similar situation (I mean nearly non-payed labor or debt slavery already exist in some countries).
Yes but that wasn’t the argument
Now do Vietnam vs Japan or Switzerland
For some reason, people still act like capitalism and socialism (or communism) are mutually exclusive, that an economy must be one or the other. But if you look at essentially every national economy on the planet today, they are all some mix of the socialist mode of production (when the means of production are owned by the government, or a group of workers, or a community) and the capitalist mode of production (when the means of production are owned by a private individual or group of investors, operating for a profit). Almost no economy is exclusively one or the other.
It is true that in most countries with robust high speed rail, there is significant government involvement, like planning and building infrastructure, subsidies, or just providing rail travel as a public service. I definitely think that for a national rail service network to work, you need to do some planning. Here in the US, government and planning are bad words, but clearly they needn’t be.
Social programs are not Socialism. The government doing stuff is not Socialism. You cannot take aspects of a society out of their context and analyze them discretely. The United States does not have a “Socialist” millitary. Socialism is a mode of production determined by public ownership being the principle aspect of the economy, ie large firms and key industries being firmly public, as opposed to Capitalism where private ownership is the principle aspect.
Socialism is a mode of production determined by public ownership
That’s what I’m talking about. Essentially every national economy on the planet includes at least some socialist production. I can’t think of a single national economy on the Earth where the production of all goods and services is carried out exclusively by privately owned, for-profit firms. Can you?
Public Ownership is not Socialism itself, but a component of a Socialist economy. An economy where public ownership controls the large firms and key industries, ie has genuine political control, is Socialist.
No system is purely public or private, hence the line of demarcation between Socialist countries and Capitalist countries is where political power is vested.
No system is purely public or private
I know, that’s what I’ve been saying. That’s my whole point.
You’re conflating public ownership in general with Socialism, though, which is wrong, and leads to wrong conclusions like thinking the US Postal Service is a “socialist part of a Capitalist economy.” All systems are mixed, what determines if a system is Capitalist or Socialist is which aspect is primary in the economy.
Socialism is an economic and political philosophy encompassing diverse economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.
Social ownership can take various forms, including public, community, collective, cooperative, or employee.
Go back to my original comment where I described the socialist mode of production:
the socialist mode of production (when the means of production are owned by the government, or a group of workers, or a community)
I understand the Wikipedia entry, I read Marx, Engels, Lenin, and countless other Marxists. I even read anarchists like Kropotkin and so forth. You are confusing public ownership in general with Socialism as a Mode of Production, which the Wikipedia entry hints at, but you lack the context to understand that, which is why I am telling you.
Socialism and communism are not when the state does stuff.
Socialism/communism is workers owning the means of production. This is exceedingly rare and constantly attacked whenever it exists. Almost every state is overwhelmingly capitalist. That’s a primary purpose of the state.
Long term rule by a single party dedicated to improving infrastructure would do that. Let’s not kid ourselves that the CCP is all sunshine and rainbows though.
I’d trade all parking spots for more trains in my city.
As much as I love Amtrak, I have to agree.
commie propaganda
Im chill with trains, but not with communism
