I’m not in the US, but it seems to me that the Republicans keep breaking norms and procedures, including politicising impeachment and ignoring illegal, immoral and plain bad conduct.
They also seem to be fine with not applying the same standard across the isle.
On the other hand, either Democrats follow new precedent, with even more devolving, or they keep the old decorum and get their asses kicked by Republican foul play.
What ways out of this spiral are there?
Need to reorganize liberal politics from the ground up. Liberals need to justify their existence and the value of their policies at the city and state level and use that to build a national brand. Democrats in federal government seem to be totally unwilling to push their agenda in deference to political norms, but in my state they get quite a lot done when they’re in power
I disagree. Just by going off margins of past elections the last decade. Dems tend to have more loyal voters in non presidential years.
As long as people believe Democrats are different from Republicans the spiral will continue.
People believing that they’re the same is the kind of mindset that leads to a Trump victory. Apathy rewards extremists.
Democrats refuse to undo what Republicans do. The best they deliver is upholding the current status quo for another four years.
The two parties tango. The Republicans wouldn’t be getting away with it if the Democrats weren’t beholden to the same moneyed interests.
Did Obama prosecute any of the Bush Jr officials guilty of torture and guilty of invading Iraq over a lie? Worse Obama committed more war crimes.
But why is there a two party tango?
Democrats will implement some policies and laws and then see support collapse as Republicans get voted in. Then people who didn’t vote will complain that Republicans got voted in and dismantled what Democrats were able to do.
Right now, not much can done, but ideas will change over time as the people holding the old ideas eventually die from age.
In my opinion, the current shitshow is actually a sign of old ideas dying. It’ll take time, but I don’t believe the Project 2025 will be successful. It’s happening brutally right now, but it will fail, because it’s being done with only very slim support from the population.
As a non-American, it’s always looked to me like the Republicans manage to get their shit done whether they’re in charge or not and the Democrats are just there to assure everyone they have a choice in voting and not much else.
The whole thing to me looks like a game of good cop / bad cop. Bad cop comes along beats the shit out you, and then good cop comes along to give you a cup of weak shit coffee as a consolation for your black eye and says something unconvincing about being unhappy with bad cop’s behaviour, before letting bad cop back in to beat the shit out of you some more.
And for every cycle of that, bad cop achieves his goals while good cop just acts as a glorified tea lady that tries to make sure you don’t have any hard feelings about bad cop.
it’s always looked to me like the Republicans manage to get their shit done
This is at least partly propaganda but for sure they succeed in misleading and confusing
The shit republicans get done tends to be
- destroying is easier than building
- misleading is easier than actually doing
- “flood the zone with shit and see what sticks”
- just claim success enough times that people believe it
Mouseland may have been written about Canada but it also applies to the USA.
Republicans getting “shit done”? What a schizo take, unless you mean just generally fucking shit up.
Destroying shit is what they said they’d do. They did it. Therefore they got their shit done.
The problem is that it’s far easier to destroy than build. They suck at building anything. They can’t even build walls. Governing is building. They can’t govern. So they mash the easy button and destroy instead.
“Destroying shit is what we’re going to do” is what the libs hear/see, the average trump voter genuinely thinks he’s actually going to make things better/fulfill his promises.
Libs see the actions for what they are. Farces. Pointless. Things that have no bearing in making anyone’s situation better - unless by “better” it means pissing off the libs. BS like changing the Gulf’s name. Removing sign language from government sites. The only meaningful actions trump takes are the ones to enrich himself and his cronies, remove oversight, or remove challenges to their narrative.
As in “getting their shit done.”
Most of what the clowns promise never gets done. But I agree that their grift is accomplished wonderfully.
I’m still optimistic. While the severity of the current shitshow is unprecedented, the reality is we tend to bounce left and right. One side gets in power and does (or doesn’t) shit, until people get pissed off and elect the other side.
I am more worried about the death of media and rise of streaming. Just like the rise of TV changed who could be elected and how, new media is also changing that. So far new media helps elect people with dark skills, people farther from anyone you’d want governing. It’s not pretty, it’s not good, and it’s getting worse before it gets better. Truth doesn’t matter, echo chambers matter, outrage matters.
Trump absolutely matters. This isn’t your avg rightward swing of the pendulum. They have gone full mask off and are ripping the copper out of the walls. This country genuinely will not survive this presidency. 0% chance it survives intact as a democracy.
Things can get better. Theres a saying; third time’s the charm.
ripping the copper out of the walls
Damn that’s a good analogy for the current slate of grifters!
It’s not exactly 0%. Their ineptitude is still fully on display, and that’s always been our greatest hope. But it is pretty bleak, and pinning our future on the hopes that the other side makes a mistake only makes it bleaker.
Try living here. I feel hopeless every time I go online or turn on the TV.
Then don’t! I’ll leave with you, brother.
The Republicans are much better about using topics they don’t care as much about to generate support so they can achieve the ones they do.
The Democrats tend to want to die on every hill, which is ultimately a losing strategy.
At this point? Probably not. Not if history is any indication. We’ve blown right past all the checkpoints that would have prevented this snowball effect. Our legislative processes are almost too irreparably damaged for a healthy democracy to exist. We’ve removed too many regulations regarding money in our politics and not placed enough regulations on the focus of power on individuals and entities within our government.
We’re probably going to go through a really dark period where the quality of life is going to decline, rights will be stripped, and a lot of vulnerable people are going to die and then, hopefully, things will get bad enough that a revolution happens. It won’t be like WW2 where more powerful forces come to our rescue. We’ll have to do it ourselves. And I don’t really have that much faith in our populace doing that. Again, it will take a really significant decline in quality of life for damn near everyone before that’s even possible. It looks like that’s where we’re headed though.
We’re in ‘if you can’t beat them, join them’ mode.
Invest every dollar you can spare, because that’s the only way to win in any of this. Both ruling parties care far more about your stock portfolio succeeding than they do about you.
The US will have a “Revolution of Dignity” moment similar to Ukraine.
If pro-constitution side wins, trump (and leading maga leaders) will flee to russia.
But if the maga wins, the US will remain a fascist nation for decades.
Revolution
you already beat one oppressor, what is one more
This is the only way. You don’t defeat fascism peacefully.
Well. You can. But we already passed all the opportunities to do so. Gotta nip it in the bud and we chose not to do so.
I’m sure the French were asking this exact question in 1788.
EAT THE RICH!
This is the way. Rise of the proletariat!
Armed revolution by the workers
Armed being the key word here. Show them what the left actually does with weapons.
Grass-roots local freaking organization. People keep waiting for someone to save them not realizing: they’re someone. Get involved with whatever local org is trying to improve people’s lives. Address the problems that the right wing is lying about solving. Support whatever local candidate aligns with that view or hell become that candidate. Then get more people on board. We all love Bernie right? Well that’s what Bernie has been preaching for decades. And the results for his state have been great.
The extreme right flourishes because the establishment (left and right) has for decades ignored real people’s issues. You hears those interviews with Trump voters? They’re not talking about wanting to reinstate the Third Reich, they’re complaining about their real life hardships being ignored by politicians. And yeah Trump is obviously lying but desperate people will believe a lie if no one else is providing a better alternative.
I agree and it’s what I’m trying to lean into. I’ve been thinking of democracy as a verb or a muscle that has atrophied in me. Corporations certainly aren’t democratic, and most systems we live in nowadays don’t lend themselves towards democratic modes of engagement. My goal is to learn more about unions and look at mutual aid groups and tenant unions and look at examples in American history when people were more civically engaged and try to do more.
The nazis and religious zealots should continue to have their free speech and be able to parade, but they need to be shunned back to the recesses of popularity and life where they were scorned and looked at with disgust and their points were not granted the dignity to be engaged with in ‘debate’. Instead they are now treated as a spectacle and a disbelief that anyone even truly believes those things. They also successfully framed the discussion that they have reason and science on their side, and culturally we all need to understand they are ten pounds of shit in a five pound bag.
I’ll suggest that the nazis and fanatics don’t get to express their nazi or fanatical views.
You can check out Popper’s Paradox/Paradox of Tolerance, which suggests that a tolerant society must counteract intolerance or it spreads to destroy all tolerance.
You’re probably right, I basically agree too, but idk. It just doesn’t seem to ever stop a zealot or a nazi or the spread of their ideology. Not to mention in America it’s basically every zealous evangelists wet dream that one day their bible will be illegal and their gospel will be silenced by the government - they’ve been saying it’ll happen for decades. I’d rather them say what they truly think out loud and for our culture to not tolerate it by collectively being disgusted and enraged and having no pity for if they do get hurt. Like I wish that no one would care or be surprised if someone that says ‘the gays and black culture are degenerate and are agents of demons and Jews’ get their ass beat because they basically should, but to make it law and have the courts and government do it? Idk. Seems like a trap to me. I just want cops to turn a blind eye and no one be surprised if a nazi gets punched. But idk Germany seems to be doing fine with it being illegal. It’s probably just some bs free speech absolutism Ive picked up being American.
You’re not wrong, but I don’t see the relevance to the topic? Unless this is part of the public revolt?
Organising to protect immigrants in your area is admirable, but how do you get rid of the necessity to do that? You’ll have to replace the politicians, no?
And you’ll probably need to be revolution sized and well organised to be able to do that when they ignore any procedure or deal that doesn’t benefit them in the specific moment.
There’s not going to be a public revolt or at least I wouldn’t hold my breath. And besides public revolts may feel cathartic but historically they don’t have the kind of outcome we’d hope for. Not to mention the civil war that’d likely ensue.
There’s no overnight solution to this problem. And you can’t start from the top if you’re not already a billionaire with a private social media network. But you can get people on your side or rather show that you’re on their side.
The real enemy is the same for both of us: the 0.01%. Trump supporters have just been brainwashed into thinking Trump is the man to solve that problem. And to be fair a lot of the left has been brainwashed into thinking the establishment Democrats are the only way forward.
But in the end it’s the extreme right that profits from us screaming insults at each other.
When has there been a revolution without a revolt in all of history?
When has there been a 180° change without a revolution in all of history?
In much of the world, Unions were forged in blood of many revolts.
Nation separation and independence was almost exclusively revolution.
Even the civil rights (which most people have been whitewashed into thinking was peaceful) had the black panthers. They have been completely villified, but the civil rights movement would not have succeeded without their willingness to use violence.
History has shown time and time again that violence works and peaceful movements are stamped out 99% of the time.
Protest, absolutely. And possibly violent ones, could be. But until we get a good majority of people on our side we’re just going to be fighting our own while the oligarchs laugh. You want to start a fist fight with a conservative over pronouns? It sounds fun but it won’t accomplish anything.
I’m not saying we can get to where we need to be 100% nonviolently but it has to start there. You have to build a base before you can overthrow anything. You’re talking about skipping to the last step without taking all the necessary steps in between. The revolution part is always romanticized but all the hard work that goes into it is ignored. That’s how Occupy failed so miserably.
Politicians decide things, but to actually make stuff happen, the government needs to collect taxes to pay for services that are then provided to the public. I think the idea here is to take out the middleman. You won’t solve the problem country wide, but you’ll help some people, and that’s still worth it. Work together without like-minded people locally, be an inspiration, and show that it works. I’ve only been very briefly part of an activist group (specialized in food saving), so probably best to look elsewhere for good advice on how to do this well.
