Europe is not as different from the US as it likes to pretend, especially politically.
Racism is not a unique or exceptionally American phenomenon, and the things I’ve heard from otherwise progressive Europeans can fucking curdle milk equal or in excess to what people in my ultra-rural ultra-conservative home region of the US can say.
I’ve had good friends who were Europeans studying here, and they can definitely be very insensitive and racist. What makes the two flavors of racism different to me is American racism is typically very confrontational, tribalistic. White man calling a black man a slur, and there’s something cavalier about it, maybe even humorous on the part of the racist.
Europeans have a much more “it is the way it is” attitude. I’ve heard friends talk very disparagingly about interracial couples, or blacks in general, and the attitude is less “hate for hate’s sake” but instead “it is the wrong way to be and my way is correct”. Fascinatingly, when you point out the bigotry, my friends have typically refused to accept their bias (at best), and will deny they’re racist.
I’ve heard Europeans call Turks ‘filthy’ and ‘roaches’ and Africans ‘monkeys’. And don’t get me started on the things said about the Romani.
I don’t think there’s a difference in how tribalistic or vicious it is.
Weird. I haven’t.
Making sure I’m reading this right…I know a guy who claims he isn’t sexist but that it is OK to pay women less because they aren’t as good at some things as men. So in his mind, it isn’t sexist to pay women less or even claim they should be paid less - even though it is.
Is that similar to what you’re saying?
Not a bad way of comparing it tbh
Did you type ‘females’ instead of ‘women’ for the sake of the argument or did you get caught up in it as well?
Guess I got caught in it. Just looked it up and didn’t realize until now that female wasn’t an acceptable word to use. TIL. Thanks!
The easy way to understand and remember is that “female” is an adjective the vast majority of the time, and it’s usually misogynists and incels using it as a noun.
I think mysoginists just have a lot of spotlight on them, or are vocal. I hadn’t been aware of “female” being used as a slur before it was pointed out here on Lemmy. I think “female” as a noun is still used neutrally far more often than as a slur.
As an adult female human, I have never been called a “female” in a positive or neutral tone. The key point is that you basically never hear people calling men “males” anywhere outside of scientific discussion.
blacks
While we’re on the topic, I think “black people” is the preferred term (in general it’s adjectives over nouns, like “gay people” vs “gays”)
I’ve heard people of all types use the word ‘blacks’ I think it’s a regional thing.
It’s more likely a field thing. People who work in fields highly dedicated to equity (esp. those working in healthcare) are especially concerned with their language and so create style guides that people outside those fields have gleaned from.
Example:
Hey fair enough. I use whites so I tend to use the same kind of term in the other direction, too. I don’t mean anything insulting by it
Wow, you’ve really succinctly put it best! Being a European myself, this is how I constantly feel when I hear racist shit in my daily life (mainly from family).
It’s like, people here just can’t even fathom that what they’re saying is racist, that they’re racist, because to them what they’re saying is just a simple fact of life that everybody accepts. They don’t show open animosity towards minorities or throw racial slurs like you’d see more in America (though there is definitely some of that here too don’t get me wrong), but it’s a very casual, low-key form of racism where folks comment on X group of people all being one way and no one batting an eye for example.
And if you so much as suggest they’re racist, or the country they’re in has or had issues with racism and other issues of oppression, a lot will legit fight you tooth and nail over it because they can’t handle the notion of it.
It’s really freaking weird and took me a lot of time to be conscious of it myself, since I grew up surrounded by this sort of attitude.
And it’s not just right-leaning people doing this. Some minorities like the Romani are openly discriminated by just about everyone across the political spectrum, the degree just varies. And then based on the country you’ll typically see a lot of Xenophobia towards the bigger migrant groups.
And even then the European countries that feel they’re ahead of the rest tackling racism it’s usually only the urban university educated talking with their fingers in their ears ignoring the majority of the rest of their country.
The things I’ve heard far too many Europeans of various nationalities say about MENA, Desi, Turkish, and Romani folk just… makes my skin crawl.
America has a deep racism problem, and it is both right and necessary to acknowledge it. But those who pretend that Europe doesn’t have a deep racism problem are either not paying attention or in denial - especially considering recent political developments.
The things I’ve heard far too many Europeans of various nationalities say about MENA, Desi, Turkish, and Romani folk just… makes my skin crawl.
Very true
Just ask a Mexican person what it’s like to travel to Spain
Ask a Spanish or Portuguese person what it’s like to travel to France or Belgium. Italians used to face racism in other European countries a few generations ago: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Dogs_or_Italians_Allowed
I have been surprised by how racist many Brits are
sexist too.
Definitely agree on the “Europe is just racist in a different way.” Outside of the obvious ones (like Middle East & Africa), I’d also add racism/xenophobia against “Eastern” Europe (like Poland), which might surprise Americans because they’re still white.
Europeans are just as susceptible to racism as Americans.
There was an Old sub reddit of people from the Balkans shitting on everyone.
Until a westoid posted and they all piled on them.
Their racism puts ours to shame. Like an old wine. They have cultivated their strain of racism since before America was a thought.
Can’t compete lol
Westoid
God I miss this level of Shitposting
When there aren’t any people with foreign backgrounds to be racist at, you simply get racist at your neighbors.
You don’t understand. Your neighbors are the foreigners.
As a European myself, never mention the Romani people to anyone here unless you want to hear the most degenerate, racist diatribe you can conjure up in your mind. (half hyperbole half not)
As a north american who lives in Europe, agreed. However, the gypsies do not help their own case. They show up in my region every summer, illegally camp wherever they want on private property, and leave huge piles of trash wherever they’ve been. I’ve personally seen them getting into all sorts of debauchery, including breaking into people’s mail boxes and stealing bikes in plain sight. I have nothing against them and I’m sure their culture is extremely rich and interesting, but no one has the inherent right to just rip off the rest of society without consequences. Also, of course they aren’t all stealing and misbehaving, but I understand where people’s preconceived notions come from.
Hey, maybe don’t throw slurs around.
Sounds like the homeless problem where I live. Except the seasonal part
I had no idea this existed. Is there a historical reason for it?
Over simplified, because Romani are usually nomad, they live in moving settlements and don’t typically integrate much wherever they settle in. A lot of the hatred they receive also stems from these settlements being illegally set up in private/public property, as well as how they result in a lot of trash being dumped everywhere. There is also an issue with Romani criminality (stealing, damaging property, and sometimes there are even shootouts between different Romani families which result in casualties).
There is also a perceived notion that governments do not want to deal with these problems, which further fuels the hatred against the Romani as they’re seen as criminals who get away with everything.
The truth of course lies somewhere in the middle. Most Romani are not bad people if you take the time to know them, but there is definitely a lot of toxic cultural norms being perpetuated by leaders of many Romani families, which doesn’t help with clearing the stereotypes, and with very little to no integration between the Romani and the cultures they are in, it’s hard to get rid of the animosity.
Thanks for the explanation. Appreciate it.
There’s probably history too, but in many cities in EU there’s a lot of assumed roma beggars living in the streets, which means it’s a pretty in-your-face practical issue to deal with every day.
No shit,
HitlerSherlock. ;)That’s elementary, my dear
ChurchillWatson.
I’ve seen white europeans be like “I’ve never encountered any racism in europe!” Well that is because you are white
White doesn’t really have the same connotations in europe. There’s sadly plenty of racism, but the skin tone isn’t the main discriminator.
Yep. I thought I knew about racism, and then I read some comments on some hearts of iron subreddit about Romani.
Can sadly confirm. European racism is just a different flavor of racism: there are always other European ethinicities to be racist against, especially Romani people, the latest trend seems to be discrimination against Muslims/people from the Middle East, and of course antisemitism is a timeless classic.
This. So many Europeans act with superiority because “at least we don’t shoot kill them” when looking at US police brutality, but e.g. we ignore how those cops in US mostly use Glocks made in Austria, making us part of the problem (and making a profit out of it). Or if we look at the deaths numbers, we ignore the many deaths the “protection” of our borders cause.
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yall need to get off the high horse and take a joke sometimes. you terrorized the entire world via colonization for hundreds of years through modern day, if people harmlessly stereotype the german or french, make fun of british people, or tease the dutch language, yall can handle it
for context, im american. we get bullied all the time, and while not all americans are fat and stupid, the combination of that many are and that we’ve terrorized the world plenty make me think a lil teasing is fair
Yes it’s perfectly fair and most of us don’t mind.
I think the issue, especially on Reddit, was the over-representation of US Americans compared to the other countries.
It gets old quite fast to get called a “surrender monkey” or a Nazi on a regular basis in a space where most of the audience is on the other side and I’m not even French or German.
On Lemmy it’s probably a bit more balanced.
I guess let’s see what happens with the Germany elections in February because that nazi line may start to ring true.
Does the Trump election gives everyone the right to call all US citizens convicted felons?
Certainly gives everyone the right to call us a country of idiots.
Sounds derogatory and xenophobic
It is not derogatory if it is true.
You guys elected a felon.
Just opened a thread on !europe@feddit.org about that, the polls look okay. The non far-right parties should be able to create a coalition.
Based on the comments it looks like Europeans weren’t ready to hear some of these things. 😉 Let me pile on…
Innovation in Europe is stiffled due to a risk-averse culture, complex regulatory environments, fragmented markets across different countries, limited access to venture capital, and a tendency for established companies to be less receptive to new ideas from startups, making it harder for innovative companies to scale up (compared to the US).
at least the fragmented markets, limited venture capital and closed-mindedness of established compagnies are relatively well known and recognised, wouldn’t say Europeans aren’t ready to hear it
I was actually thinking the first two were the more detrimental, and are the reason behind lack of VC and closed minded companies. The fragmented markets is irritating, but overcomeable.
yeah I think I’d agree with that, hut I’m risk-averse myself so can’t go pointing blame at others
The opposite could maybe be said of the US: due to our crazy-pants lack of financial security, people are willing to do risky things, which, when successful, can drive innovation. I grew up in this culture, so it doesn’t make me uncomfortable, but understand it isn’t for everyone.
From what J can see innovation is happening just fine
Tell me one big innovation of the last 30 years where Europe is leading
na-euv
Doesn’t really count if you have to google it first to know what it is, that’s not what will save the European economy in the future. In the mean time other regions of the world dominate battery technology, battery-electric vehicles, handheld devices, social media, semiconductor technology, quantum computing, and basically the whole internet
Doesn’t really count if you have to google it first to know what it is
Are you saying that semiconductors and chipset manufacturing is not a critical domain today?
battery technology
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umicore
social media
Ironic as you are using a Lemmy instance based in Austria
A few other companies in the fields you mentioned:
- Spotify
- SAP
- Volkswagen
- BMW
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/20-most-valuable-european-tech-221145055.html
Yes, and as we all know, feddit.org absolutely dominates the social media market.
I specifically wrote that in these areas other regions of the world are dominating. I’m well aware that there are some players from the EU in these areas. That’s not the point. Europe is not leading in any major development of the last 30 years while in other areas they lose market share to the competition like automotive or space (with the notable exception of aviation).
Let’s look at tech companies. Look at that list and tell me with a straight face that Europe is playing a dominant role:
https://companiesmarketcap.com/tech/largest-tech-companies-by-market-cap/
Out of the 100 biggest companies, there are only 10 from the whole continent.
ASML is such an undisputed leader in today’s chip ecosystem that it’s hard to believe the company’s market dominance really only dates back to 2017, when its EUV machine, after 17 years of development, upended the conventional process for making chips.
It’s also a testament to ASML’s dominance that it is for the most part no longer allowed to sell its most advanced systems to customers in China. Though ASML still does business in China, in 2019, following pressure from the Trump administration, the Dutch government began imposing restrictions on ASML’s exports of EUV machines to China. Those rules were tightened further just last year and now also impose limits on some of the company’s deep-ultraviolet (DUV) machines, which are used to make less highly advanced chips than EUV systems.
Yet although today everyone is banking on ASML to keep pushing the industry forward, there is speculation that a competitor could emerge from China. Van den Brink was dismissive of this possibility, citing the gap in even last-generation lithography.
“SMEE are making DUV machines, or at least claim they can,” he told MIT Technology Review, referring to a company that makes the predecessor to EUV lithography technology, and pointed out that ASML still has the dominant market share. The political pressures could mean more progress for China. But getting to the level of complexity involved in ASML’s suite of machines, with low, high, and hyper NA is another matter, he says: “I feel quite comfortable that this will be a long time before they can copy that.”
https://www.technologyreview.com/2024/04/01/1090393/how-asml-took-over-the-chipmaking-chessboard/
Doesn’t really count if you have to google it first to know what it is
Maybe you have to Google it
You keep using your phone, and ignoring what tech allows all modern computers to exist. Tech isn’t a major industry, right?
And Europe is not dominating that industry
Just the foundation it’s build upon
Rather have stifled innovation than innovation running rampant like what the US is doing.
With stifled innovation you only get through if you have an actual good idea instead of just an idea that makes money.
Ain’t no way you gonna put all of Europe into that statement. You do understand that each country have their own system, policies and regulatory laws?
The problem here is that what you’re saying is maybe true for a handful of countries while completely false and inaccurate for a handful of others.
We’re not one single entity. Your statement is just not accurate as a whole.
Yea my healthcare one quickly got down voted. Someone used GPT to try to disprove it. I’m even a big propilonent of public healthcare, but you can’t assume it is perfect.
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As someone who isn’t a European, most of these comments are yanks being loudly wrong about something and the saying “see the europeans weren’t ready to hear it” when someone points out how stupid the thing they said was.
You guys should start bulking up your militaries. At best, the US will completely abandon you, and I really don’t want to think about worst-case scenario as I live in the US.
Already happening, keep up
I think Europe can defend itself, it’s not useless most countries have some military
Too many people smoke in Europe and it’s too widely accepted.
Europeans like to pretend they’re innocent, but they are the benefactors of most the damaging empires to have ever existed. They colonized nearly the entire world, extracting value from other cultures while destroying them. They pulled out once it was financially wise, keeping the wealth they extracted and leaving behind the destruction they created. They then blame everyone else for their issues while bragging about how awesome the EU is while overlooking that the EU is only possible due to the wealth they stole from everyone else. Europe likes to discuss that they had their social hardship discussing WWII, but the origin and impact of WWII there was internal to Europe. Had Europe been subject to colonization from elsewhere, it would be just as much a mess as other places. Look at the situation in former Soviet Pact countries that were practically colonized by Russia for maybe half a century. Now imagine if instead of half a century, it was hundreds of years and 5 times as brutal.
Fun fact: The term “colony” comes from Christopher Colombus’ name, which is Spanish is Cristobal Colon. Even the term colonization derives from a European.Apparently, that was incorrect.tl;dr: Europe got to where it is by destroying the rest of the world while blaming the rest of the world for their issues. Their critique of USA is merely a distraction from their own responsibility.
I don’t think Columbus was the origin of the word “colony”
Yeah I think they’re aware of colonisation
Idolizing the past (and long gone) ‘grandeur’ of some European countries is not the best way to prepare for the future.
edit: as a disclaimer, I’m European from one of those once important countries.
Romanticizing “past greatness” seems to always involve some very shit politics. It’s more obvious in these old empires, but it exists in more subtle forms elsewhere, too.
I was specifically talking about euros, but I guess a certain US president gets a honourable mention for his campaign slogan
Knackered, as t’were?
Such an underrated comment
How would people who live outside of Europe know what Europeans are not ready to hear? As someone who lives in the U.S. I know only a couple of people IRL who live in Europe.
The thing my European friend was not ready to hear was that all his complaining about the social programs in his home country and the high taxes and so on comes across as entitled and spoiled. Because he’s never lived without the benefits of a state that will provide healthcare and so on, he is free to complain about his privileges and glorify the U.S. as a place where individual citizens fill in the responsibilities that the government should fulfill. He sees this as an unmitigated good, because he thinks it means more civic engagement.
What he doesn’t understand is that this results in most people falling through the cracks, and until he falls through one of those cracks himself it won’t be real to him how bad it is to not be able to afford losing wages because you are sick or injured, or what it’s like when you can’t afford to see a doctor when you break a bone or get so sick you can’t leave your house.
That said, I’m not sure every European needs to hear this, or that they’re not ready to hear it - just this one person seemed to be a little delusional and to have idealized the U.S. as some kind of right-wing libertarian utopia.
How would people who live outside of Europe know what Europeans are not ready to hear?
-Goes on to do exactly that
Bröther
You take your lööps for granted, Eurøpeans. Your Sïster grows weary.
A Møøse once bit my sister…
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does she prowl the forests fighting bandits with her newfound møøse powers?
Opinions differ from person to person, some people here really are a bit disconnected from reality
of course, I assume most Europeans are not like my friend :-)
European racism is out of control to the point of cringe. The new world cannot hold a candle to you.
Here is a quick example. Netflix released a Norwegian movie called “Christmas as Usual” (translated). It essentially takes the concept of the American 1967 film “Guess Who’s Coming To Dinner”, moves it to Norway and gives it a holiday twist. According to Netflix, this 2023 film was in the Top 10 in thirty countries. How? How is a movie concept from America’s peak civil rights battles era working for you in 2023?
My wife is European and my largest clients are European with European staff and the abundance of casual racism is hard for myself and my staff to handle. Don’t get me started on my family in-law.
EDIT: Europeans were definitely not ready to hear this one. LOL
Agreed. We have been sold xenophobia by our politicians and media for longer than America has existed.
Your point really doesn’t land. Netflix released a movie? Okay… And?
The film was one of the few of the time to depict an interracial marriage in a positive light, as interracial marriage historically had been illegal in many states of the United States. It was still illegal in 17 states, until June 12, 1967, six months before the film was released, and scenes were filmed just before anti-miscegenation laws were struck down by the Supreme Court in Loving v. Virginia.
Makes more sense with this context.
I still don’t get it. Why is a movie’s success with an anti-racist trope an indicator of racism?
Because it should be a non-issue and not an impactful or driving feature of the film.
That feature of the film moved the status quo in 1967. It seemed like that was the point.
If a film were released in America today that pushed interracial marriage as an issue, most would find it racist because it is not a large issue in the greater culture (for the most part).
But I thought the movie only has a similar plot to this 1967 movie, which only featured interracial marriage in a positive light. Does it actually focus on interracial marriage? Because so far nobody has mentioned anything objectable.
EDIT: Europeans were definitely not ready to hear this one. LOL
Nah, your example is just shit and that the new world cannot hold a candle to us is fucking insane, y’all just re-elected Trump ffs. We definitely have a racism problem in European countries as well but our Trumpian party in Germany is currently polling at 19%, which is awful enough but to claim that it’s that much better in the US is fucking nuts. I’m in a multiracial marriage myself and while my wife experiences racism in Germany, it’s to a somewhat similar extent to the US
Wikipedia describes the origin different, so maybe the parallels were not intended:
The film is based on the true story of Holmsen’s sister, a Norwegian, and her relationship with an Indian, whom she brings home for Christmas Eve. The film was released to negative reviews.
You misunderstand. I don’t mean that it was a remake, just that it was the same concept. I think the term is “trope”.
The fact that the Norwegian film is based on a true story just makes it all so much worse.
Do you not think the problem is divided equally? Some Europeans tend to not notice casual racism, whereas many Americans tend to see racism where it didn’t exist to start with?
I think you are missing the context of the film I used as an example. All the friction and the “comedy” in the film comes from the racism. From the start, it is the point. The taxi driver picks them up from the airport and asks the main character if he is from India. When he replies yes and asks if the driver if he’s ever been there, his reply is no but he stopped in Turkey once. The when they arrive the soon to be mother-in-law assumes that the Indian boyfriend is the Taxi driver and the driver is the boyfriend. We are five minutes into the film at this point and it goes downhill from there.
That is just one easy to digest example using media. Our real life daily interactions with the staff from our European clients is a never ending source for more.
So you’re saying the film points out the casual racism in an effort to shame the people that do it, even accidentally, and using comedy as the vehicle.
Whereas you just got angry and self righteous at said film
That’s what I mean
Hopefully someday we’ll learn to be more like USA police and judicial system.
The scary part is that this racism is very alive in German politics right now
I thought America was racist until I saw a member of UK Parliament tweeting about a boat of migrants sinking with “Good riddance”.
The question should read
“Americans; give us your baseless opinions of a continent you don’t understand, and then get a rage-on in the comments when you are laughed at”
It really does feel like online communities get more relentlessly xenophobic when they have more Europeans. It just seems like a lot of you can’t get by without mentioning where someone’s from. Like, no, someone not seeing the value in retro computing doesn’t say anything about “the intelligence of the average Scot.” And if you can’t tell where they’re from, American by default.
Wow that’s exactly the kind of thing a Scot would complain about
Really wish @notruescotsman was here right now
States in the southern U.S. are often the butt of the joke too.
Europe as a whole is swinging too far too the right. Y’all all are descending back into Fascism. The recent popularity of the AfD in Germany being a prime example. My own parents - who immigrated from Germany - are deeply disappointed in the direction the country is taking.
