- cross-posted to:
- atheistmemes@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- atheistmemes@lemmy.world
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Well that’s just because God works in mysterious ways you lil silly Billy.
This is sorta the beginners philosophy question. There are plenty of answers, it’s not the “gotcha” it appears to be. Those answers unroll into all sorts of branching other conversations but they exist.
Maybe it’s because free will exists.
Maybe there’s a greater purpose for what we call “evil” that results in more good.
Maybe it’s a definitional thing, where “evil” to us is always going to be the most-evil existent thing so if existing evils were gone “evil” would still exist but it would consist of aggressive kitten licks or something. So “evil” can’t not exist, but it’s not because God can’t get rid of what we call “evil” now.
Maybe there’s a greater purpose for what we call “evil” that results in more good.
A work of fiction I very much enjoy called UNSONG uses a variant of this as the answer to the question of evil. The basic notion being that at the level of abstraction that God operates at two identical things are essentially one thing and so in order to maximize the total net good he creates universe upon universe, all slightly different but each ultimately resulting in more good than bad in net. The universe the story takes place in is recognizably similar to ours until the Nixon administration, and it is explicitly said to be “far from the center of the garden”. IOW in a region of possibility space in which few potential universes are good on net.
The story is also an absolute master class in foreshadowing to the point that if you just listen as the story repeatedly tells you how one should interpret text, you can derive the ending from like the first paragraph of chapter 1 by just digging deep enough. And it goes a lot deeper than that. It’s not just an aesthetic choice that every chapter name is a Blake reference, or that the story is arranged into groupings of four, ten, twenty two and seventy two. It also manages to analogize itself to both the works of William Blake and the song American Pie because why not?
Is Scott Alexander a dickhead like Yudkowsky?
I’d be shocked if he wasn’t, depending on one’s definition of dickhead. Everyone is a dickhead for some definition of dickhead.
UNSONG is still a great fantasy story and a master class in foreshadowing, regardless of how one feels about the author.
What annoying when people who have no grasp of what philosophy about starting saying these statement and expect me to answer them.
Edit: reading the comment is also annoying. When someone mention God, many assume the statement reference their own religion and draw conclusion based on it. I had someone start talking about god doesnt exist because “the proofs” are wrong, but these proofs all driven from his own religion. ( ex christian talking about statement that doesnt make sense in the bible) when I attempt to speak on higher level ( forgot all religions lets talk about god as an entity or thought ) they kept circling around to same points.
Many people dont know how to debate or what they are debating.
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An omnipotent being would be able to setup the universe in such a way that it could be done, anything less is just being very powerful. Its only really a problem for monotheistic religions, most with pantheons portray their gods as very powerful but not all powerful.
sadfasfsadfd
Can god make a universe where a crooked straight line is both possible and impossible, where he both causes it to exist and also not exist?
Reading this thread is like watching a 4 year old figure out how to blow a bubble in milk and think it’s profound.
Which god was he talking about anyway ? They had thousands of the fuckers at the time.
A more general tri-omni god
This was a guy who assumed the existence of Platonic solids. He clearly had a streak of monotheism in him.
Disgusting. I hope they threw him off a cliff.
To get around this, ancient fuckers in my country invented reincarnation and karma. That conveniently also gave them the license to be supremely racist.
I don’t know though the Americans managed to be super racist while being Christian. They got around that one by just classifying anyone they didn’t like as not a real person.
Religion has always been the excuse, it’s never been a preventative.
Or maybe he’s just a cunt, what with all the murdering people.
I know this is a circle-jerk meme, but I’mma pitch my two cents anyway.
If we are talking about the Abrahamic god… “he” is both good and evil. So no; to be omnipotent one must also be responsible for evil. Kinda duh.
I could go on, but that right there is pretty much all that needs to be said regarding that god in particular. Good and Evil are man-made concepts, and subjective as all hell.
If you’re going off the old testament God is a jealous, vindictive asshole. New testament was a very successful attempt to white wash this with all that “love they neighbour” bullshit.
The Bible is wild.
That whole vibe is pretty much what created Christian gnosticism. The “creator God” or the idiot demiurge actually is the evil god from the old testament that trapped your soul in an evil reality. The good God and Jesus are here to help you transcend it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaldabaoth
For those elder scrolls players who wanted to know what Lorkhan was about: here he is.
Then isn’t it wrong of the Abrahamic God to ask humans to do good if good is subjective anyway?
That’s a fun question!
But there is that pesky “good” and “evil”! “wrong” and “right” are the same thing.
Isn’t it evil of the Abrahamic God to ask humans to do good if good is subjective anyway? Well, yes xD
Good and Evil are man-made concepts, and subjective as all hell.
Gotta get all D&D True Neutral Druidic on this and recognize life as a cycle. The wolf eats the lamb, the lamb eats the grass, the grass eats the bodies of them both. What is good here? What is evil?
To eliminate “evil” one must do far worse things than murder. One must assert one’s will over the very foundations of nature itself.
Like ripping fruit from a tree.
Or calling it a tree
Where God is humanist principle, and God is a humanist, then circularly, principle exists without micromanaging intervention in perpetuity.
The old testament is extremely problematic. Israelite hasbara coup. Polytheistic relgion at the time was Canaanite. The descendants of Noah’s grandson. El was main god, that Israel is named after, and all other god’s were his offspring. Greek rule over the region, had Greeks say that all of the major Canaanite gods were the same as the Greek gods, with El as Zeus. Yahweh was the tribal god of Israelites. But it is basically very easy for any priest to invent a new god, based on narrower factional/fertility needs to collect revenue for rewarding the priest to champion your tribe/goals contrary to humanism.
The problems with old testament start with 10 commandments
There is no god before me (Yahweh), is a coup over El.
“Though shalt not covet/idolatrize” was an insurection cry over Canaanites where Yahweh orders the Israelites to destroy all idols of Canaanites instead of valuing their silver/gold content. El/God had no desire to repress worship, and their priests accepted offerings and sacrifices, so why not idolatry.
“Honour thy father/parents” codifies law at the time that gave parents the right to have the state execute their children for “dishonour”.
Just as all Churches today have as mission to maximize their power through alliance with state/authority/hierarchy, so have all religion through time. A cult is simply a religion without state approval. God exists without church corruption. Prayer has no measurable effect, but Abrahamic religions being rooted in a lie could be one explanation. Still, that evil exists, doesn’t imply that humanism/principle doesn’t exist, just that you individually have the power for evil, and tyranny/autocracy has power because you are deluded to allow/tolerate it, and evil happens from the greed and desperation it fosters. Evil exists because we are too collectively stupid and gullible to organize ourselves around evil.
https://www.naturalfinance.net/2022/11/the-invention-of-truth.html
If anyone actually cares, this is the muslim answer to how a good God can allow evil and why humanity was created with all its flaws
It’s an important question and worth taking the time to watch the video
If this were multiple choice, then I would go with #2.
Assuming Christianity and that the lore was real there’s more fundamental questions.
Can you perceive the universe accurately and fully? If good and evil exist, are you accurately observing them?
If this world is like an illusion and eternity will be in heaven or hell, what does it mean to do good or evil here on earth? You commit evil and it will propel you towards hell, the"real", while the people who suffer from your evil fare better here in the “illusion.” It’s like evil is when someone kills their own soul, and has less to do with the literal consequences here in this universe.
Related the the first question, what about the fact that their god is literally defined as good and is essentially an Eldritch being that exists within the very unfolding of history itself? Stepping into this lore and trying to trap this thing with a simple, elegant rhetorical cage is like… trying to catch Cthulhu with a cage.
Why not able and willing, but just doesn’t?
I’m willing to go for a walk today to burn a few calories. Doesn’t mean I’m gonna.
Wouldn’t that make you unwilling?
Not at all. Willing means that I want to do something. Unwilling means that I don’t want to do something.
Just because I want to do something, doesn’t mean I will do that thing.
I’m willing to sit here and continue editing this post with examples to further illustrate my point, but I have to go to work soon.
Edit: Oof. Now I remember why I refrained from starting a lemmy account for so long. Appreciate the refresher.
If you guys pray to me, I promise to notice you and pay attention. Which is more than you can say for any god.
(You have to do it out loud and in front of me though.)
Kneeling bags my nylons.
What god and satan was Epicurus talking about here? Just curious what idea of an omnipotent, omniscient, loving god existed about 300 BC. My little Roman mythology knowledge has their gods closer to Greek gods: limited in power, easily fooled, and extremely flawed.
AFAIK there is no proof that this paradox was actually coined by Epicurus, despite later being attributed to him. Epicurean philosophy holds that the gods exist, but don’t interfere with anything, so it’s pointless to fear or appease them.
Hence, it would be a later invention attributed to him.
One of my favourite discussions of the problem of evil is the chapter below. It’s a discussion between two brothers regarding God and suffering in the world if the end result is eternal paradise. TW: child abuse, suffering and death. Children are used in the argument specifically because they don’t deserve suffering, they are innocent according to Dostoyevsky (I easily agree).
It’s heavy but worth the read imo, and not unnecessarily graphic.
Zoroastrianism Vs Christianity
Please expand.
Zoroastrianism…Vs…Christianity
Here’s your answer.
You know what they say, the best way to make someone an atheist is to make them actually read the Bible from front to back.
I have a friend who was a serious muslim so she started reading the quran and then relized at the age of 8 that the whole thing is bs so she stopped believing. Its funny because there are a bunch of people who tell her how shes disrespecting her ancestors and she should at least read a bit into it. She probably knows more about it than 90% of the people telling her about it.
I was also ashamed to find out, there is no tradition! Religion shifts focus and meaning constantly and usually as a reaction. The religion I was born in now says it’s ALWAYS been against trans people, and point to the written beliefs that came out of being anti feminism the last few decades and recontextalize it to fit their priorities now. I’m old enough that this lie is obvious and stupid. But this has always been the process. It’s been new age reframing old age material into current beliefs that not only have no logical connection to any doctorine or belief, but often defy the very principals they claim to extole. It’s always been people poorly copy and pasting popular opinions and priorities over actual historical beliefs.
Just understanding the historical facts and what the very religion that produced it holds as fact and fiction, because it’s not even intended to be factual vs. A bed time story, will make most people realize either their religion is made by fools and liars, or they need to adapt a very symbolic kind of faith.
Can they slip the geniologies? They’re just there to prove the guy in the story is really truly the descendant of someone holy and important, so add nothing if you just presume the protagonist is a proper protagonist
Wow people from thousands of years ago were people from thousands of years ago. Checkmate, everyone. I am so smart.
Ask your next zealous Christ/Jew/Islamist if he thinks his holy book is out of date.
Most Christians now accept female priests, gay marriages, fires on Saturday and clothes with mixed fibres. How would they do this without accepting that the book is outdated?
It sounds like they are picking and choosing what to believe and follow, based on their own preferences. If that is the case, they’ll believe whatever they think benefits them, even if it is at the expense of others.
We have seen this play out with christians against gay people. Now we are seeing it play out against trans people, even though the bible says nothing about trans people. The bible does say to love thy neighbor as thyself though, to judge not lest ye be judged, and to leave judgment to god.
Picking and choosing only the parts people like makes them hypocrites. Picking and choosing only the parts people think are “good” makes the bible essentially worthless to follow and base one’s life on.
They are indeed picking and choosing. However, I’m just contesting the poster above claiming that believers would deny the book being outdated. It’s more like a “you have to interpret the core message of love thy neighbor… And sometimes hate the neighbours we specifically don’t like” kind of thing these days.
You might have heard of a group called Christians. They have a lot people there who think this is a devine rulebook and everybody must follow it.
Eh, it’s not like they actually follow the bible, nor do they follow Jesus’ teachings. They follow whatever their pastor tells them to follow.
The Bible wasn’t even written thousands of years ago. Bit if it were but lots of it was rewritten and indeed rerewritten by the church over its history, so their revised version. The one they think takes out some of the less acceptable bits.
Okay let’s say 500 years ago. Misogyny, slavery and rape were basically just everyday stuff.
Right, but that’s the word of god for some people, not the word of the everyday man.
The simple solution is that there is no “evil.”
I like the story The Egg by Andy Weir. It gives an example of that idea.
Alan Watts also talks a lot about that sort of thing.
No one can convince me that abuse is not evil. Is it common? Banal? Sure. Is it good? No. Never. Causing truama is evil. I don’t think there’s a valid argument that it isn’t.
Nice premise but I can’t stop giggling that the universe created for the child to mature has to be hellscape for parent, for all those instances of the same talks they will be having util that day (finally) comes.
For an intellect that vast, and with such a different experience of time, would it really be so difficult?
As the nature of the parent is no further explained than hinting at a “human” origin we will never truly know. Can’t imagine though that a couple billion same-ish talks not take a toll on the parent.
I do love that concept. I don’t think it removes evil, just shifts its perspective
You remind me of my wife.
When we met, she introduced me to lots of short stories that made me reconsider my perspective on things. This was one of them. She still makes me reconsider my convictions whether I want to or not. I sure do love her for that.
This is the most wholesome, loving thing I’ve read on Lemmy. You’re truly a gem.
Can you share some of the others?
Sure, but I’m not sure I remember many offhand and some have become popular since then so you may have already read them.
Two that come to mind:
- They’re Made Out of Meat by Terry Bison
- When Sysadmins Ruled the Earth by Cory Doctorow
edit: another one that came to mind, though my wife didn’t introduce me to this one, was ~~All You Zombies~~ by Robert Heinlein. I think that one has a movie adaptation called … Predestination maybe?
One my wife did recommend to me, though I found it less impactful than she did, was [https://ia801904.us.archive.org/35/items/the-jaunt-stephen-king/The Jaunt - Stephen King.pdf](The Jaunt) by Stephen King.
Also, though I don’t recall if I ever ended up reading it, she really liked All Summer in a Day by Ray Bradbury.
edit 2: Not sure why the Stephen King link isn’t working. The % maybe?
edit 3: Replaced all instances of
%20with a space. Link still didn’t work on my client. If it doesn’t work on yours, I’m afraid you’ll have to search for the story or manually copy the URL… Sorry.I would like a list of some as well!
Happy to share the ones I remember offhand, see above in the thread.
thank you! the ones I’ve read so far are awesome, I appreciate you sharing :)
My pleasure, happy I could spread the joy!
Not that I necessarily agree with it, but having listened to a lot of Alan Watts, he gives the impression that he somewhat believes in a just universe.
To him every experience and every challenge is an opportunity for growth, especially the most difficult experiences.
He posits a belief in a karmic universe, where every lifetime of experiences and choices leads into the next lifetime of experiences and choices.
It rubs me wrong, because that type of thinking, to me, stems from the childish belief in a just universe, that good things happen to good people, and bad things happen to bad people.
Therefore, if terrible things are happening to you, then you must deserve it because your karma created your lifetime of circumstances…
I can get the appeal from someone recovering from truama, I’ve been there and putting yourself back together is a long hard road out of hell. That being said, the truama is a disadvantage that prevents people from typical level of functionality, it doesn’t make you more able to deal with anything, it typically leaves you with disorders and disfunction. The people that overcome are outliers.
In the karmic line of logic, it is focused towards spiritual development on the scale of seemingly infinite lifetimes.
Becoming a functional or self-actualized human is secondary to the experiences each lifetime provides in the infinite karmic cycle of death and rebirth.
If I redefine evil and child abuse and power then God is the best scarecrow humans have ever created.
