Holy hell, you liberals really have gone completely off the rocker in your corner of Lemmy, huh? I mean, Jesus Christ the shit I am reading in these comments is completely insane.
“Everyone I disagree with is a foreign agent”, say the people whose same views Israel are literally running bot farms about.
“Trump would be worse”, say the people who have admitted that the genocide of Palestine is an acceptable means to an end, as if queer folks are supposed to believe you won’t be their next tool of convenience to be discarded.
“Look at all these policy differences”, say the party who brag about being half Republicans and use their policies.
Y’all are going to lose, and it’s not going to be because of the 100 US leftists on Lemmy.
I’m sure you’ll blame us anyway though, because liberals have objectively abandoned reality.
Look at yourselves. You’ve become MAGA, and don’t even try to deny it. This is the shit you made fun of Republicans for doing for 4 years of Trump. I thought Democracy was about winning votes, not demanding them under threats of violence? Or is this another one of PugJesus’ cronies?
Ok gaslighter
Yeah, the US elections have a high chance of losing, largely due to large disinformation campaigns not unlike the one your comment forms a part of.
Protest voting doesn’t work when the candidate you are protesting is the least worst option. Democrats that will not vote out of principle have been conned as badly as MAGA republicans. End of story.
I think you might be on to something. Maybe the system is set up to limit the power of protest voting? I mean, it does deliver two right-of-centre parties to power, over and over again.
Where the wheels are coming off is that one of them - and some people say both - are moving further rightwards, and this is destabilising society in America.
Some people say… Dems are generally shit but they have definitely moved left over the last decade. A lot of new people have run and while it isn’t a sure thing by any stretch, people have been able to and have the chance to continue to move the party and also just straight up infiltrate it to push it left. Whereas the repubs have been in full sprint to the right.
Maybe the system is set up to limit the power of protest voting?
It absolutely is set up that way. This may or may not have been the intent of our election system, but it is the outcome.
Are you American?
Not voting for a candidate is not the only, nor the most effective way to push a party to change positions on an issue you care about.
Stop pretending Harris also doesn’t have absolutely horrible immigration, environmental and police policies as well.
No politically viable candidate will have environmental policies sufficient to properly address climate change. We are so unbelievably behind the 8-ball on this.
*Record Scratch*
She doesn’t.
I mean she does she supports police funding, violence against refugees and half arsed environmental policies hell she is pro-fracking for example.
If you want to engage those bad faith accounts, don’t respond to the Gaza thing; that’s a trap. Instead, ask about other issues like climate issues, housing issues, food insecurity problems, etc. ask them what their third party candidate has planned for that and ask for evidence of these plans. They’ll move goalposts and attempt to get back on Gaza. Keep them coming back to those other issues that affect Americans daily. Many of those accounts are here to derail conversation. Derail them in turn and force the conversation back on track.
Or do what I do and downvote then block, then post the occasional reminder that most of those accounts are bad faith at best.
I know. I mean I’m not a huge fan of Harris’ Gaza stance. Honestly I’m not sure why it’s political at all to call what Israel is doing wrong. But come on, Trump will be 100 times worse. And that’s just on the Israel/Gaza thing. I’m not sure how you can look at these two and decide that Harris is wrong enough about the Gaza thing that you come to the conclusion that either a third party or Trump vote is warranted. Which makes me believe is not genuine and likely foreign agent spreading chaos and misinformation.
It’s because there is a large, internally-polled segment of the Pennsylvania electorate who are Jewish and sympathetic to Israel.
Harris can’t afford to not court them.
I have no doubt she vehemently dislikes Bibi and would wish to cut aid.
It’s because there is a large, internally-polled segment of the Pennsylvania electorate who are Jewish and sympathetic to Israel.
Harris can’t afford to not court them.
I have no doubt she vehemently dislikes Bibi and would wish to cut aid.
I hope you are right. But, without evidence (if there is any, please share it), this might be wishful thinking. You might just be a more moral person than Harris. I might be being extremely unfair, but it doesn’t seem impossible for an elected official to be willing to sacrifice the lives of innocent people in a country without American voters to gain power.
I think there have been some “leaked” info to reputable journalists how both Biden and Harris pretty much despise Bibi at this point. I think if you look at it in the aggregate in how they pushed for the ceasefire (as opposed to Trump speaking with Bibi to actively undermine it), in her comments after meeting with Bibi shortly after becoming the presumed nominee following Biden stepping down — there is a clear tonal change from, say, 6-months-ago even. So yeah, I think her hands are pretty well tied.
Either way, the reality any sane person can understand is that there are much better odds we see movement from Harris than we do from Trump.
Either way, the reality any sane person can understand is that there are much better odds we see movement from Harris than we do from Trump.
I completely agree with that. I admit to being impatient for change now, because innocent people are dying now. It is sad that elections (and electorates) get in the way of such important moral principles.
Gaza is not the only issue? Tell that to the main stream media.
Current Politics can be summarized into 3 things.
- Israel
- The Opponent
- The Election
Anything else doesn’t exist in their eyes. My grandfather had his Fubo running last night, I kid you not 10 minutes of ads, and every single one of them was based off one of those 3 categories. I asked him why he’s paying 95$ a month to watch smear campaigns and the same 3 topics over and over.
Once you are under dictatorship, you can’t vote to hold anyone accountable. Vote for Trump and you won’t have a say in what happens to Gaza. Or anything else.
yea, but you get to brag to all the other inmates in the political prison yard that you stood up for your principles by not voting!
They’ll be in the same political prisons as their primary enemies, the classic liberal Dems.
LOL i can’t wait to get in fistfights with them
Oh Lemmy. Don’t ever change ❤️
I’m not as enthused as you to vote for a system where innocent civilians have to die for political convenience, sorry. My morals say that killing is wrong, and I don’t like it.
It doesn’t take enthusiasm to make an active move toward harm reduction if and when you see the opportunity, especially when the consequences are this serious. I would love to see ranked choice voting and a diverse and motivated number of parties to challenge the dichotomy we have now, but I live in the reality of the viable options in front of me in this moment.
This isn’t about an acceptance or endorsement of the system we have now. Unfortunately for all of us, however, this is the system we currently live in. If my choices are between bad and catastrophic, I’m going with bad. Doubly so in cases like these. The choice is either the people who are suffering may or will continue to do so, versus these same people suffering even worse while making multiple new groups of people suffer, too.
If Trump wins and things get as bad, or worse, than the scenarios that have been proposed on record, more people will continue to lose their homes, autonomy, and lives in the United States. Many people who are suffering from atrocities actively going on in places other than the Middle East will likely also be worse off under these policies.
I hope those people who feel as if they own the moral high ground will remember they had an opportunity to stop it and chose to do nothing if we suddenly all find ourselves living in that world.
I hope those people who feel as if they own the moral high ground will remember they had an opportunity to stop it
How many people died in Gaza today? I wish I had an opportunity to stop that.
but I live in the reality of the viable options
Yes, and I am unhappy that the options all involve ‘innocent people are dying right now’. This bothers me.
If it’s the moral high ground to say that killing is wrong, then it is also the moral high ground for you to say “The choice is either the people who are suffering may or will continue to do so, versus these same people suffering even worse”. You’re saying that hurting innocent people is bad, yes?
Having to choose to hurt some or more innocent people is not a choice I am enthused about, no matter what the practical reality is. It would be churlish to criticise someone without food for complaining about their practical choice between going hungry and starving, I feel.
Practical concerns do not replace morality. Someone might have no choice but to abandon their children because they cannot afford them: this does not stop them from being harmed by the moral weight of what, in all practicality, they had to do.
My underlying point was the nuance of this entire situation, and you provided another obtuse black-and-white response. If you can’t radically accept the world and your life, it’s going to make it awfully hard to see it well enough to make changes.
Thanks, as a person with a trans gender identity, this really helps me to understand that nothing will change, because fear and oppression will be utilised to force people to rationalise harmful actions as inevitable.
as a person with a trans gender identity
I’m gonna go ahead and stop you right there chief. Transgender people don’t write “transgender” as two words. Big “as a black man” energy here, cishet loser.
As a non-binary person who is under the trans gender umbrella, without being transgender in the sense of having transitioned across genders, I am careful with my language. I am not transgender in the way people typically understand.
Feel free to participate in non-binary erasure, I’m used to it. Humans love creating outgroups so they can bully each other, that is why I find myself not labelling myself as human. I think gender is stupid, and I think humans are rude.
A trans gender identity? That sounds like a broken English interpretation.
Hey, I’m autistic, queer, and an immigrant. You can hate me if you want, plenty of people do.
My gender identity is trans. I’m also ethnically Ukrainian. Feel free to assume I’m Russian because I’m different to you. That’s what human society does, create ougroups and scapegoat them. I try to avoid doing it, which makes me an enemy of those who do, because I say impossible things like “can we not kill innocent people?” For practical purposes, that will not happen, and asking for it is naive.
I know that. But, although impractical and naive, that does not stop it from being the morally correct outcome. My autism shows itself in a very strong sense of justice, and I find justice to be more important than practicality.
I’m voting so the state doesn’t kill my sister if she has complications in her pregnancy.
That is good. I would also like to be able to vote so the state doesn’t send weapons to enable one country to kill innocent people in another. Some of those people dying are sisters, and their siblings feel much like you might when they are without them.
“So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide.”
LOL you guys never fail to illustrate my point in less than 5 minutes
If your point is “some people think that killing is wrong”, feel free to consider your point proven.
You’re choosing between “lots of people being killed” vs “LOOOOOOTTTTTSSSS of people being killed”
Based on your own morality you have outlined, ethically you would choose to vote Kamala then, as under her far far fewer people will die.
Removed by mod
No demon at all has created it; other humans have. You aren’t the sole person responsible for responding to it, but your actions will contribute to what happens next, non-action included.
You can say that this kind of situation implies someone else has done something wrong, leaving you holding the bag, and you’d be right, if nobody had done something wrong, we wouldn’t have a genocide to talk about in the first place- but saying that leaving you holding the moral bag was a wrong thing to do doesn’t change the fact that you are now holding that bag, along with all the rest of us. And about half of us (referring to the people of the US as a whole), if you haven’t noticed, have every desire of causing even more harm. “Neither” is simply not an option when failing to choose the least bad thing will result in someone else choosing the worse one. It’s not fair, it’s repulsive even, but the universe does not work in such a way as to ensure only fair moral choices exist. Morality is a thing we invented, the world doesn’t care about conforming to it.
Getting the best outcome you have with the bad options presented you matters more than whether or not you feel your own personal hands are clean- because metaphorically clean hands will not save the people of Palestine, and likely would doom some, and others elsewhere, that could have been saved. A clean feeling conscience bought by leaving people you could have helped to die is little more than a delusion of innocence.
What do you think about China’s Uighur genocide?
There is no genocide that I agree with.
Not voting is a choice as well. A choice that will make it so that your voice will not have an impact on whether the candidate that kills more will win, or the candidate that kills less. Choosing to abstain is an announcement that you don’t care about those whose lives are being threatened, the opposite of what you seem to think it is.
Honestly my ideology on it is the same as my parents and my grandparents, and even my great grandparents ideology.
I don’t care who you vote for, what you vote for, or your reasoning’s for doing do.
But if you refuse to vote, regardless of reason, you lose any say in complaining about what happens as a result, as you actively did nothing to help prevent it, meaning you have no right to bitch about the outcome.
A great Canadian philosopher once said “If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice!”
It’s really not hard to rush to the polls
Not voting is a choice as well.
Yes, but I don’t have any other choice, myself.
Choosing to abstain is an announcement that you don’t care
No, it’s an announcement that I care so much about innocent people dying that I am morally conflicted about being asked to be part of a political system which condones it.
Not sure why you’re acting like you can vote on this in the first place
I’m acting like someone who is saying that they do not accept killing innocent people as a viable part of a political process that will make the human world better.
So you’re voting for fascism or just going to sit it out in a political statement? Or being bold and voting third party?
So you’re voting for fascism or just going to sit it out in a political statement? Or being bold and voting third party?
I cannot cast a vote in this election.
“In four years, you don’t have to vote again. We’ll have it fixed so good, you’re not gonna have to vote.” - Trump
Right so people should vote Green to hold Harris accountable while they still can.
“Gaza is not the only issue” should not be the takeaway here:
“Even on this issue [Gaza], Donald Trump and his right-wing friends are worse,” Sanders said in the six-minute video, which he posted to X. He noted that Republicans have fought to block humanitarian aid to Gaza and that Trump — who has praised Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu — has suggested Gaza would be a great site for beachfront development.
I’d really like to see someone who has the power to actually do something stand up to Israel and knock them down a peg or 2.
The information that I’ve seen about Israel’s attack on Iran over the weekend has some outrageous levels of discrepancy. Israel claims it crippled all of Iran’s air defenses and its ability to produce drones and missiles. Iran claims it intercepted the attack with limited damage (and a few confirmed fatalities). The truth is almost certainly between these 2 points with tons of propaganda and straight-up misinformation, but despite the “Iran Dome” bravado I’m not convinced that Iran’s defense was particularly successful.
I am no fan of Iran by any stretch and would prefer a more benign entity to step in and do something, but seeing them keep Israel in check would have been a welcome change. I guess my mindset is that you never really want one group to have too much power over others because being able to act with impunity opens the door for the worst types of behavior.
I’m not sure why people haven’t been saying this more.
It’s a fundamentally uncomfortable position. The people of Gaza matter, and we can be pretty sure that Harris will continue current Biden Admin policies on it. You can’t argue for the hundred other policies at stake without knowingly allowing genocide to happen with US approval.
But here’s the thing: there are two very prominent Jewish people who don’t believe for a second that both sides are the same. One of them is Bernie Sanders. The other is Benjamin Netanyahu.
It’s a fundamentally uncomfortable position. The people of Gaza matter
Thank you for saying this.
If I were American, I would surely vote for Harris. But I would want to have been able to do more to keep people safe from state terrorism.
I have been. It tends to get downvoted by both extremes on Lemmy.
On my instance, the UI doesn’t even give a downvote option. There’s probably a way around that, though, not that I am interested.
Getting rid of downvotes is, I think, a good thing.
Hey look, someone finally posted an article about this so the mods don’t remove it!
Yea for real the amount of myopic one issue voices must be that of the privileged or Russian propaganda because WE ALL KNOW that hardworking normal Americans struggle with more than one issue that is 5000 miles away.
struggle with more than one issue that is 5000 miles away.
Humans could be killing innocent people in another galaxy. I still don’t approve of killing innocent people. Distance doesn’t matter.
If you must sacrifice humans elsewhere for the good of your political system, kill me. I accept the sacrifice. I will die in their place. I will give Israel my address. If someone must die, I will do it.
I just do not enjoy hearing, every day, about children being killed in bombings. It makes me not want to be alive.
hoohoooo, all the single-issue “progressives” and Bernie bros who have been screaming at me for saying the same thing have to scream at Bernie now.
that’ll be funny.
They screamed at Bernie when he endorsed Clinton after she got the DNC nomination in 2016. They called him “sell out” and such.
goofy goofers
Someone running for office should not be entitled to a vote simply because the opposition is bad. Even if they’re as bad as Trump. I wish more people demanded better from their leaders, it would stop this ridiculous slide to the right the entire American political system has been going though for decades.
You fix that by pushing for ranked choice balloting, until then, it’s your job to get the least objectionable person elected, which in this case is Harris.
I agree with the first part, not the second however. This situation of voting for the least objectionable person led us to this kind of election. I want more progressives to demand progress and making it conditional to their vote instead of just accepting the least shitty option because the other one is a fascist dickhead. MAGA won’t go away if Harris gets elected, even with a majority of the house and senate. Until America demands better than their politics will just continually slide to the right. Ranked choice balloting would be a major gamechanger, I just don’t see it happening at all. Not with the current political climate.
That. Doesn’t. Work.
Full stop.
Let’s say for a moment that progressives and Democrats did that for whatever issue they personally felt strongly about.
First, we have to acknowledge that the Republicans ARE NOT doing that. So they’re vote count doesn’t change and they win
Second, people will disagree on the same issue. You can’t capture everyone on every issue. Refer to the first point, Republicans win.
Third, there will be huge factions each with their own issue. A candidate cannot sway all these single issues groups. See the first point, Republicans win.
What first past the post representative democracy means is to vote for the viable politician that MOST ALIGNS with your political position. Not the one that EXACTLY aligns. If you build the third parties at the local and representative and Senate level. Maybe you can get there, but for now, this is the political system we have to work in.
I don’t disagree with anything you just said. I’m just saying that an argument for a candidate on an issue should be a lot better than “better than Trump”. It’s a ridiculously low bar America has been forced to accept, and by extension the world.
Ballots aren’t where effective political action happens. Demanding better means organizing outside of election years, maintaining strong communities, and showing up to participate in political action that isn’t just ticking one of a few allowable boxes. Demanding better sometimes means just doing better, regardless of the state’s involvement. That isn’t directly applicable to, say, genocide, but it does help build a real base of support that allows people to work outside the system to further that progress between elections.
I’m voting for Harris because I would much rather organize under her administration than Trump’s. It’s a dead simple choice imo, because demanding better means doing the work every other day than Election Day.
and definitely pay more attention to your local elections, those will more directly impact you and the people around you.
Fully agree. I wish more people actually voted uncommitted in the primaries for reasons such as this. To show that American voters want a progressive, not a moderate of an extreme far right fascist.
Agreed. Chasing an electorate where the loudest shout they want more hate, which is what I (perhaps incorrectly) see happening from elsewhere in the world, is not good for the political system. It just legitimises hate.
Is this going to be American politics for the rest of time: continually voting for least worst of two options which will cause observable harm?
If yes, it would be nice if that changes at some point, thanks.
Support single transferable vote ranked choice voting if you want more options.
Approval voting is also good. Really any of the alternatives create more representative outcomes.
I call it “defensive” voting. Not voting for actual progress, just voting to prevent further deterioration.
I put practicality over ideology, and in accordance with this have already voted for Harris. But I can still express my disappointment.
You are right, and this is what I would end up doing if I were an American citizen, however I am not, and have never even visited either American continent.
However, as someone who grew up as an abused child, harmed by a society that blamed me for being poor, disabled, autistic, and an immigrant, I cannot help but feel that I would gladly swap my own life to save even one innocent person harmed by state terrorism. It leaves me feeling like I would prefer to be dead that see this happening.
Thats the natural end game of capitalism, yes.
Not much you can do about it, it’s human nature.
Not much you can do about it, it’s human nature.
I think there is time for humans to prove otherwise, but maybe not so much as humans would want.
