- cross-posted to:
- technik@feddit.org
- cross-posted to:
- technik@feddit.org
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How can we go back? We’re already on the way back. It’s called the Fediverse.
I help pay for my instance to operate, and it’s a cost I’m happy to help shoulder.
Us instance admins appreciate it I promise
Same, its on my best pi. 🥧
How is it running you a month?
Are you asking how much I donate per month?
Ehhhh, the OG internet connected better because all nodes were well connected. The Fediverse is a series of single servers that can’t even sync all data across themselves. It’s cute, but it’s post-it notes on strings atm
I wonder if there’s a more efficient way to have things sync in blocks or something. I honestly understand very little about server architecture, much less decentralized social network architecture. Maybe having a smaller number of “centralized” (community-run, redundant, independent) nodes distributing blocks of federated data to take load off the actual instance servers that would only need to upload bulk data to fewer places?
Maybe this isn’t very different from how it already operates. Fuck if I know.
Yep we have different lemmy/mastodon/etc… instances talking with one another. Anyone can set up something like activityhub. Its a fun place in my opinion!
Btw how do we stand on just blatantly copying and reposting material from reddit? I missed the announcement talking about that.
enjoy the mainstream memes and discussion, but avoid the algorithmic content slop from them. That’s how I see the fediverse. It’s a win in my book.
The Fediverse is a bit more like the old USENET days in some regards, but ultimately if it ever becomes more popular the same assholes that ruin other online experiences will also wind up here.
What made the Internet more exciting 30 years ago was that it was mostly comprised of the well educated and dedicated hobbyists, who had it in their best interest to generally keep things decent. We didn’t have the uber-lock-in of a handful of massive companies running everything.
It’s all Eternal September. There’s no going back at this point — any new medium that becomes popular will attract the same forces making the current Internet worse.
Exactly.
I’m interested in distributed applications (think BitTorrent, not ActivityPub), and my primary concern here is filtering. I want to be able to only see content from people I trust and people they trust (and so on), and if I do that well, I won’t have to see a ton of crap. That’s how regular relationships work, and I’d like to try my hand at it with anonymous relationships. Think something like Web of Trust, but adjusted for larger networks of people.
That sounds awesome and I’d love to use it.
Same. Unfortunately, it’s nowhere near done yet. 😅
The Fediverse by design prevents this, while the internet of the old age had little if any guardrails against this specially since the platforms never really federated with another.
Did forum sites even federate? One forum sites would be dead and the next would have more activity. But what if the other forum with less activity was the one you wanted to use? The old internet was a good start but there’s a reason why it’s dominated by Instagram and Facebook, while email, you can use mostly any provider and not feel like you’re left out.
The Fediverse by design prevents this, while the internet of the old age had little if any guardrails against this specially since the platforms never really federated with another.
I see someone is too young to remember USENET.
if it ever becomes more popular the same assholes that ruin other online experiences will also wind up here.
That’s kind of the glory of the fediverse, though. We can have communities using the same protocol that never interact with each other.
There can be completely separate fediverses that cater to different people.
We would be better than ever, if not for the normification.
what exactly does that mean?
It’s what happened to the internet. Devices were dumbed down to make the internet accessible for everyone. Now the “normies” are also on the internet, whereas in the past they’d belittle you for spending time on the computer.
In time, the Fediverse will also be easily accessible. And where there are normies, you’ll find corporate enshittification.
Edit: thanks for the downvotes because I explained the word “normification”. You’re overthinking this. It’s a term that has been around since before Reddit became popular. It’s a term that stems from 4chan. I don’t like the term, I just explained it. And yes, the corpos are to blame but they couldn’t do the things they do without a certain user base. And that’s not your typical tech savvy user base. How is that so difficult to understand?
I’m not sure that categorizing people as “normies” is a great idea. nor is it a way to entice new people and voices to join and learn how to use the fediverse so that it can become a more reliable place.
i think blaming enshittification on “normies” is a lot easier than holding greedy corporations accountable for directly making everything worse. it’s surely easier, but the real issue remains unchecked.
if anything, it’s a good thing that more people are learning how much better the fediverse is. it helps the fediverse get stronger, not weaker.
“us” vs “them” is not a mindset that will produce anything except cesspools of toxicity. at least imho.
I didn’t coin the term and I too believe it’s a huge generalization. However, “simpler” people are more susceptible to ads. The “normies” in question are the ones that don’t use adblockers, they believe ads are normal and they believe ads don’t affect them. Corporations capitalize on that. Better tech education would definitely help take some power away from corporations.
Edit: even now you’ll find people that use Lemmy apps that have ads. The bigger the user base, the more greedy companies will find ways of exploiting the Fediverse.
Better tech education would definitely help take some power away from corporations
If you truly believe that, then vilifying more “simple” and less tech-savvy individuals is not the way to do it. Don’t be angry that they click on ads. Be angry that they’ve been poisoned to think that behavior is normal on the internet.
Education is absolutely possible for those new to things like the fediverse. But education doesn’t work when you use those labels for people. It widens the gap, it doesn’t close it.
I was a normie once. I too fell for misinformation in the past. If it wasn’t for the freely available information on the internet, I wouldn’t be here today.
You went ahead and actually gathered the correct information. This is not what the “normies” in question do. Look, I didn’t coin the term nor do I approve of the use of this term. I just wanted to explain what the other person meant with “normification”.
blaming enshittification on “normies”
What’s really annoying is it’s straight out of the corpo playbook.
“We’re not responsible for ______, you are because you didn’t do enough ________”.
The most blatant is “global warming” and “ate too much meat/didn’t recycle enough/made poor choices with your car” and so on.
It’d be nice if people would stop trying to blame the worst offenses being perpetuated on people by billionaires and their pet corporations on personal choices, because it’s hot liquid bullshit.
normies
Honestly some normies would help us talk about something different than US politics, linux and being trans femboys. Honestly, we’d have some diversity in content. I’d like that.
I think it would make discussions about US politics even worse. But I agree with the rest. I personally would also like to have a more broad user base. That’d definitely spark more interesting discussions. Lemmy is a very weird echo chamber right now. It’s just very important that no one in the Fediverse starts to capitalize on them. That’d be the moment enshittification starts. And that will happen once the mainstream people come pouring in because greed will always corrupt the ones who have some form of power. Someone will take advantage of this.
We could have separate instances for the normies and for the femboy linux users. And then, everybody can choose which instances to block/follow.
In time, the Fediverse will also be easily accessible. And where there are normies, you’ll find corporate enshittification.
No, because corporations cannot buy the Fediverse.
Couldn’t they “convince” instance admins to include ads? Couldn’t they flood communities with influencers? Couldn’t they promote Lemmy apps that have ads?
You are severely underestimating the criminal energy and creativity of these corporations.
Edit: reddit turned to shit way before the platform itself was up for sale. No need to buy the platform, bots and influencers are enough.
Couldn’t they “convince” instance admins to include ads?
Yes. One at a time. But the cannot “buy Lemmy” which is what a CEO would want to do.
No one needs to buy Lemmy to enshitify it. All of the above and many more methods would result in a shit experience.
Normification is a facet of our undemocratic capitalism. As you see yourself as a consumer of the internet and not a citizen, you mostly assume that a thing being
- popular
- monetizable
- and convenient
is always preferable.
So the internet continues to have a huge potential to host many cool places, but
- they can’t reach users that might be interested
- gaining support from small donations is difficult
- and they can’t integrate a complete set of features, accessibility, design and content moderation.
If you ask an average internet user about these places, it’s a common response to say they’re weird as in not normal. If you dig a bit for what they mean, it’s usually the above. Nobody is there, it can’t make money and it doesn’t have all the things.
…pardon?
you automatically assume I’m some weird corporate drone? you’re not exactly making your case very clear and you sound patronizing.
I’m not entirely certain who this rant is for, but i can’t imagine anyone who is labeled as a “consumer of the internet and not a citizen” is going to take you seriously.
and for that matter, those with good heads on their shoulders won’t either.
Stop blaming random people for the bullshit that corporations do and get away with. you’re pointing fingers at the wrong people and it makes your cause look fabricated.
Is this some kind of attack on certain minority groups or am I over thinking this comment? I googled what normification meant and the results gave me some bad vibes regarding this comments direction.
It’s not an attack on certain minority groups unless you consider “normal average person” a minority group.
It’s just a little bit of the old nerd superiority complex leaking out with a new word attached to it.
The fediverse is just a barnacle on the larger Internet at this point. It has to become more - we need to make our own web
The Fediverse is still a new concept and it’s gaining more usage then most other open source social medias. It’s the best we have, and more and more people land on it. (atleast going by some Mastodon metrics.) It’s not the biggest, but it’s actually impressive for an an opensource project what you do have for it’s userbase. I wish some people would understand that to an extent.
It’s not unless you are operating your own instance.
Or at the least, avoid the major instances and use smaller instances from individuals.
Libraries should evolve to play a larger role in the internet, theyve been trying to reinvent themselves and i think this best aligns with their spiritual purpose. Some ideas:
Caretakers of digital archives.
Caretakers of relevant open source projects.
Could I get a free domain with my library card?
Could I get free api access to mapping or other localized data?
Should libraries host local fediverse instances for civic users? (think police, firefighter alert, other community related feeds)
I’m very much onboard with this. Idk if I’d say it’s the libraries job though, I think it should be at the city level for community instances.
The library is appealing to me because:
Precedence: pre internet I could connect to the library over a landlines and access the library and community news.
Expertise: not necessarily deep tech expertise, but with information retrieval, curation, education.
Community access: libraries are a municipal service with brick and mortar locations, and are heavily involved with community/public engagement.
For clarity, on the fediverse instance aspect. I was thinking more read only, with users being more official organizations with a barrier of entry vs. The general public. I personally wouldn’t want libraries to be moderating public discourse - this should be arms reach. And wouldn’t want them worrying about liability.
Public information (like safety bulletins for example) shouldn’t exclusively be sitting on a for profit ad platform, it’s bizarre.
How did we get here? Adtech, tracking, monetization.
Can we go back? By removing the ubiquitous affiliate marketing financial incentives, so no.
Yeah man. Last time YouTube was good was when people were making videos just for fun, not for clout.
I’ve thought about this. Essentially, whenever a channel gets moderately successful they will be contacted by various agencies trying to ‘sponsor’ them.
All the people that make video for fun hardly get seen, and if they do it’s not long before they sell out.
Yes, sadly this is the way :(
Don’t be silly, the proletariat just needs to unite, seize the nuclear stockpiles of at least two nations capable of destroying all life on earth in defense of the oligarchy’s hoards, and then decentralize ownership of the global communication infrastructure.
Easy.
Go back to site directories.
Curate your news feed.
Stop using a single corporate search engine.
Participate in online social communities, not in social media.
Love that last line. Will remember.
Hah, I was quite proud of that one. Thanks!
can we go back
no
Yes, selfhost most essential services like mail, messengers, web search, piped frontend, vpn, and other things like gitea/forgejo and jellyfin, web 3.0 will be federated network
Isn’t web 3.0 the whole crypto ntf bullshit. Maybe we skip that one and go straight to 4.0
I think in general it’s supposed to be about decentralisation, but god knows scammers will hop straight onto anything with “point-oh” in the name
Exactly. Blockchain is decentralized, so a lot of people have jumped to that, but it really doesn’t have to be. I’m interested in distributed projects, which goes a step further than federation, and I think that is the gold standard for an open internet.
Back to 1.0, Javascript is pollution
Gaben is that you? Where half-life 3?
Shhh! You’ll scare him off!
Web 2.0 Episode 2.
Web 4.0: I can actually safely tip every dude who made a useful video/website 0.01 cents and neither side will have to pay any extra fees so it is actually worth to tip, it will just be p2p money using the processing power of the sender and the receiver without buttcoin vultures trying to fuck with it. That was what web 3.0 was supposed to have been 13 years ago, but between the technical limitations and those web3 shitasses’ greed, we’re left almost where we started…
We’re nowhere closer to frictionless, costless money transfer than we were 13 years ago, are we?
Creating a closed network on the Internet where any commercialization and domination are prohibited might help?
Something like Tor/freenet/I2P, but less shady (I know it’s not meant to be like this), open and accessible to anyone.
Edit: I remembered about gemini protocol, where you get
lightweight online space where documents are just documents, in the interests of every reader’s privacy, attention and bandwidth
Perfect for the new better internet, huh?
For Android/iOS users, there’s a client called Lagrange on F-droid and Testflight
TIL - there is something called Gopher and Gemini. Looks interesting, will read more on it.
Neither is all that great in practice.
Gopher has many problems as a protocol. The original versions of HTTP had much the same problems, such as closing the connection at the end of a transfer rather than having a length header or a signal that the connection is actually done. HTTP went on to fix most of those problems, but Gopher never got the chance. Gopher+ started fixing it up, but it was a victim of bad timing. The Mosaic browser was released shortly after Gopher+ and everyone started switching over. To my knowledge, nobody has ever implemented Gopher+ on either a client or server. Not even after over 20 years of a “revival” movement.
Gemini intentionally limits things, such as not having inline images. This is supposed to be done to keep out methods that have been historically used to track users, but things don’t work that way. I can just as easily send my logs to a data broker without using a pixel tracker if that’s what I want to do.
In the end, you can just use HTTP with a static web page, zero cookies, and no JavaScript. That’s what I ended up doing for my old blog (after offering a Gemini version for a while), including converting a bunch of YouTube
<iframe>tags to linked screenshots so you don’t even get YouTube cookies.That’s been my take on the whole ‘use gopher/gemini!’ bandwagon. Nice idea, but the solution to the problem leads to more problems that need solutions, and we’ve come up with solutions to those, but on other protocols.
And I mean, if I stab someone in the face with a screwdriver, the misuse of the screwdriver isn’t in some way specific to the screwdriver and thus nobody should use screwdrivers.
Same thing with all the nonsense a modern website does: HTTP is fine, it’s just being used by shitheads. You could make a prviacy-respecting website that’s not tracking you or engaging in any sort of shifty bullshit, but someone at some point decided that was the only way to make money on the Internet, and here we are.
Fyi, there’s a portal site: gemini://medusae.space/
(http version if you’re not on gemini yet)
Back in the days of the wild frontier things were chaotic, anarchic, violent, and unconstrained.
Then came the churches, then came the schools
Then came the lawyers, then came the rules
Then came the trains and the trucks with their loads
And the dirty old track was the Telegraph RoadAnd now we’re all fenced in, regulated, allowed to wander only in approved lanes… oh, wait, sorry, we’re talking about the internet, not real life!
This pretty much. It got ‘civilized’
‘monetized’
Nah, people got changed too. The younger generation is not interested in the technology that much otherwise then usage of it. Also even the older generation lost its interests because of getting older and family
I really hate to argue in favor of all those scary things, but with those things in the old west came education and improvements to quality of life; better protections for the vulnerable and cures and prevention of disease.
Same could be said of the internet if we follow the analogy.
improvements to quality of life;
Native Americans: “Beg your pardon?”
I think the analogy holds. Communities destroyed in favor of the powerful’s whims
Kind of my point. We gained ecommerce, streaming services, platforms such as this one, online gaming, mapping services, and others - at the cost of the freedoms for which people are nostalgic. And now we have ads, personalization, tracking, and inevitable enshitification.
Not sure this has been said yet, but Neocities is a pretty great throwback to GeoCities and the early 2000’s web.
All a bunch of small, handcrafted websites and personal blogs by individuals and small groups.
Exploring feels like I remember back in the early 2000’s as a teen. Crazy and weird sites, hidden links and easter eggs, ARGs, random annon comments you can post to a wall, .gifs all over, pixel art, hacker manifestos, links to other similar sites, etc.
The Fediverse is pretty great too.
I wish there were more site directories curated by communities, that would reduce my reliance on search engines for sure. RSS is great, I’ve been using that to help build my personal content feed.
neocities
this is very nice thank you
Absolutely!
Oh my gosh, there’s webrings! That used to be such a good way to find new websites in a given topic.
Yes!
Capitalism. No.
The Fediverse is as close as I’ve gotten to Internet the way it used to be, and I donate to the instances I use in order to keep it that way. I wish everyone would.
Someone showed me this and it’s the closest I’ve seen to the way the internet used to be lol
Shows a different site every click
Wiby is great. I think of it as more of a museum, an incomplete collection of antiques. The fediverse is thriving, it has a pulse.
I totally agree. Corporate interests and rampant consumerism have ruined the majority of the internet.
Glad we still have refuges like lemmy though to take solace in. Proportionally we’re a smaller part, but absolutely I’d say we’re about the same or larger than in the 2000s.
New rule: programmatic advertising is illegal
This. Lemmy is the way to go. Decentralized Communities connected via API.
I don’t see many other possibilities. The system needs a “free for ever” mechanic or big money shits into everything.
Lemmy is the way to go. Decentralized Communities connected via API.
This only works to a degree. Eventually, the communities that allow people to register most easily and see the most active content become the overwhelming majority of the content on the system. And if these communities don’t do a good job of self-policing, they just become mini-2008-style Reddits, filling up with the same bot accounts and serial assholes and sex pests that degraded the original.
Bigger sites start swamping smaller sites with traffic and overwhelming the capacity of smaller communities, so you get waves of defederation and new Walled Gardens of content.
The issue isn’t the technology, its the participants in that technology. Too many malicious actors piling onto a platform and either corrupting the administration or degrading the quality of content will inevitably lead to enshitification.
Federation only mitigates this by allowing smaller instances to break away and abandon larger ones. It does nothing to screen the sincere and human actors from the malicious and automatic accounts.
the communities that allow people to register most easily and see the most active content become the overwhelming majority of the content on the system.
hasnt this already happened with lemmy.world being the Big One?
They’re leading the pack. Although, that could change if some supermassive community like Threads ever implemented a Lemmy API.
Still a relatively slight difference in scale between .world and Reddit compared to, say, .world and shi.tjustworks or lem.ee.
How does Threads federation work compared to Mastodon? Do they have an allow list?
Mastodon users can subscribe to Lemmy communities so I’m curious if Threads can already federate with Lemmy.
If they can, I’ve never seen it. No Threads content in any Lemmy instance I’m aware of and no way to use the Threads app as a client for lemmy.world or any of the others.
Yeah I’ve never seen it either. However, I was curious if it was because instances were blocking it (as in fedipact).
Checking out Lemmy.world, I noticed threads is actually listed as a linked server. So at some point, lemmy.world has traded content with threads.net.
Though I can’t actually find the content. And there don’t seem to be any threads.net users (except a couple who wrote it in their display name as some sort of joke), so perhaps there are some threads users who are following lemmy communities but haven’t commented (or aren’t able to)?
so far, the threads implementation is similar to the mastadon ‘microblog’ model. i suspect they could interact with the new lemmy pieces that allow that part of the protocol on lemmy systems that dont block them.
i picked mbin so i could have access to both the lemmy content and microblog content. ive been following a few threads accounts and have no intention of blocking them.
I think monetization ruined it. There’s a lot more trash to sift through.
How did we get here
Money!
can we go back?
No!
