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This logic is not sound. Why couldn’t be the case that only one religion is right?
Three people looking at a triangle might have different opinions about what shape it is. It is inconceivable that they are all right, but that does not imply that they are all wrong.
I think the part that’s left out is “since they all can’t be right, yet use the same standard of authority for truth, the most likely scenario is that none of them have a reasonable claim to truth”.
If only one religion is right, then the God of that religion is either evil or an asshole or not all knowing and all powerful.
If you think about it, and all knowing all powerful God that allows a gigantic portion of his beloved children to live in complete and total ignorance for their entire lives without even the chance of ever knowing the truth would be a terrible asshole at best, and that’s only assuming that he doesn’t throw everyone that doesn’t get the truth he didn’t give them into hell forever.
Of course that only covers the abrahamic religions. I feel like Zoroastrianism would probably still be okay because as little of it as I understand it seems to be more like the world is a stage where a chess game is being played and each piece moves as it will and the battling deities over watching the game can only make so many moves each to keep it fair.
Buddhism can’t really complain about it other than that it sucks that we’re all currently stuck in hell and having to live tens of thousands of lives until we’re allowed to get out, seems like more people should make it out as time goes by.
Either way though, if there is one true religion it would be amazing if the god of that religion would occasionally pop onto the planet and remind everybody that they exist, maybe give us the bread and circuses show to catch us back up, maybe throw out a couple of worldwide hey I forgive everybody’s and then pop back off just to remind us.
A thousand years without a reappearance of the God of all gods is a long time to keep the torch burning.
He just stepped out to grab some milk and cigarettes, he’ll be back soon.
Yeah, so if you’re a worshipper of the Greek pantheon you could be right. The Greek gods are powerful but not all-powerful, wise but not all-knowing, and not particularly loving (they have their own agenda). Sometimes they’re even assholes but not particularly evil.
Zoroastrianism sounds cool as hell tbh
it would be amazing if the god of that religion would occasionally pop onto the planet and remind everybody that they exist, maybe give us the bread and circuses show to catch us back up, maybe throw out a couple of worldwide hey I forgive everybody’s and then pop back off just to remind us.
A thousand years without a reappearance of the God of all gods is a long time to keep the torch burning.
https://slrpnk.net/comment/9243887
A dramatization, if you will.
God’s Final Message
After discovering that the people of the Universe were rather unhappy with their Universe, God set out to make sure they understood He hadn’t purposefully tried to screw with them. And so He wrote the following message on a mountain for anybody within range to see. The message went as follows:
WE APOLOGISE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE.
The message eventually became a tourist attraction.
The logic seems sound to me.
If they all look at thin air, and claim there is different kinds of magical beings, and as evidence they say they imagined it, isn’t it reasonable to conclude there actually is none of the magical beings they claim? Since they use the same vastly erroneous process to make similar extraordinary claims.
As Richard Dawkins say: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
religion is about a lot more than an origin story, friend
How so, isn’t it a definite origin for how all of the everything got here and what it means to be part of the origin. Is there a religion without an origin story implied or actuated?
did you just not read my comment? all I said is there is more to religion than an origin story eg beliefs, holy texts (like the talmud which isn’t about origination), and rituals/practices. lighting the candles on shabbat isn’t about where we came from
I’m not to familiar with Jewish customs but aren’t those candles part of a metaphor for the dawn of creation. The seven days to create the cosmos? How is that not part of the origin story of the everything?
but it’s not just about that
That’s why it says “most reasonable conclusion.” If all of these religions have the same level of evidence of their existence, all have people who are certain that their religion is real and all others are false, and they all claim to be the “truth” then what’s most reasonable?
Obviously it’s possible that any given religion is correct about the world, but if you ask me which is more probable: that every human religion is wrong except the 1 that is correct, or that every human religion is wrong? I think I agree with the original quote
The reasonable conclusion comes from the vast range of possibilities of what is true, which is exponentially larger than the range of possibilities specifically expressed in the world’s popular religions, even if we were to assume that every human being has their own understanding of what is true. The range of possibilities not conceived of by one of eight-billion human beings is vastly greater, so the chances of one person getting it right is akin to winning the lottery.
If we assume that any two people agree on religious truth, that number of religions becomes less, and the odds it is not one of those becomes even greater.
Note that there are about (not quite) 40,000 denominations of Christianity (and then all the non-denominational churches, some of which are megachurches that stay ND so they are not recognized as an NRM, which law enforcement presumes is a potentially-dangerous cult-or-sect) so we get very specific as to what religious truth is, and we fight wars or litigate over these specifics.
Considering the scope of the universe compared to the scope of life on earth (let alone human life), it’s highly more likely the Milky Way galaxy (including the solar system and everything in it) is incidental to any divine purpose of the cosmos. The difference between the chances that we’re special or important, and the chances mold under a specific Sequoia tree in central California is special or important is infinitesimal.
So even when we only consider theistic possibilities within the universe as we see and understand it, any popular religion that has a non-zero possibility of being true still doesn’t have much more than that.
or they each see a different face of the same truth
I do think it’s reasonable to say they are all wrong, but I agree with you, this logic provided in the image doesn’t make sense.
It being impossible for all to be true, doesn’t imply they are all false.
It’s likely they are all false, if you subscribe to the philosophy of science, where without testable evidence, it’s deemed unreasonable to assume something likely to be true.
The (in my opinion) correct opinion is that all religions are very likely false, because none have provided convincing evidence according to the scientific method.
It could be the case, but it’s more reasonable to think that they are all wrong rather than to think that 334 of them are wrong and 1 of them is right.
Correct. By their very nature of certain religions being mutually exclusive, they can’t all be correct, but they could all be wrong.
They aren’t wrong because some are mutually exclusive. That’s a non-sequitur. They are false or at least not true, because the evidence either falsifies the claims or doesn’t prove them to be true.
And it’s obviously the one with a god of THUNDER!!!
What, there are two?
Since it’s inconceivable that everything on TV is true, then everything on TV must be false!
Seriously what terrible quote from a terrible chud.
Terrible comparison. Other than propaganda like right-wing “news,” TV clearly delineates what is fiction and non-fiction. Religions all claim to be true and contradict one another.
Without trying to defend him here ( not my goal ), that is a pretty weak analogy.
“Everything on TV” is not a zero sum game. For one thing to be true, it is not necessary for everything else to be false. There is little dependency between the content on one channel and another.
Looking at his own cultural religious tradition, the major religions say contradictory things and say that they are the truth. Islam and Judaism both reject that Christ is a God whereas it is pretty important to the Christians that he is. They cannot all be right. That is clearly what he is saying.
Although, taking a step back, many religions throughout history require faith in the Gods they profess but not necessarily a rejection of other Gods. That seems to be a more recent thing.
If it was not required to reject the Egyptian Gods to accept the Norse ones, then his reasoning falls apart and your analogy becomes valid.
Here is a better analogy: since it is inconceivable that all the runners will win the race, the most reasonable conclusion is that they will all lose it.
Better yes, but we are not quite there.
A race happens in a point of time, then it is resolved by verifiable evidence
Irrelevant. The point of these analogies is to demonstrate the logical fallacy
Much better
Everything on TV is false. It’s curated. It’s edited. It’s commercialized. There is not a single thing on TV that fully represents an experience as if it were not on TV.
I miss Hitch
I like the explanation of AI with a pencil and googly eyes. Give the pencil some googly eyes and call it Mohammed, or Carl, and talk to someone with it, using ventriloquism or something, doesn’t have to be good. They will form an emotional connection to the pencil and react, some even violently, if the pencil is broken midconversation in front of them.
That is the reason why people think AI is a thing. That is also why people think a god is a thing. They are wrong in both cases.
Gods are never real in a sense of natural science, they have no body, no voice; they aren’t existant. They exist as an idea, a thought people have.
Gods never work in the physical world, none of them have a will, they can only be used to steer people through the people’s thoughts.
ai is a thing though?
Are you referring to LLMs, as I was? If not, please provide resources.
Yes I’m referring to LLMs, and image classification models. And image generation models. And even the code that controls the Creepers in Minecraft. AGI isn’t a thing, but we’ve had AI for a looong time. It’s just not as flashy as it often looks in Sci-Fi movies.
Okay, great. AI as you describe exist, but are still things. Not sentient beings. Never will be. My point is the only people that think that they could be, are people that humanize pencils. Or gods. Or other things.
So yes, AI exist. But not as sentient beings.
What makes humans different? If someone perfectly simulated my entire brain, would that digital brain be sentient? what even is sentience? I think it’s strange to say that AI will never be sentient.
Complexity for one. A cramped foot has an influence on the brain, as does apparently the gut bacteria. Focusing on the brain is a starting point and we don’t even understand that that well.
If someone perfectly simulated your entire brain, would that digital brain be sentient?
I don’t know. It could be. For now I don’t think so. Are you comparing that to an LLM? That would be like comparing the paths of snail slime to a comic. One could compare story lines and art styles to something that just isn’t there. And never will be.
What is sentience?
Sentience is the ability to experience feelings and sensations (wiki). A word not based on a clear understanding, but rather an attempt to categorize. Nonetheless, an LLM doesn’t experience anything. It uses pattern recognition and human provided categorization to try and create different stuff. All in the confines of the recognitions.
I think it’s strange to say that AI will never be sentient.
It’s why it’s important to distinguish between “AI” and “LLM”. AI, as an AGI, is something we might be able to build one day. LLMs might be a step on the way to this. But not the way they are now.
You have a point with most of the things you said, it’s mostly a matter of perspective and how you define stuff. the only thing I really fundamentally disagree with is equating AI to AGI.
It isn’t an intelligence, it’s just repeating patterns (the behaviorism theory of psychology has already been disproven (if I’m not mistaken). This just shows, people percieve anything capable of speech intelligent (like parrots, bit not crows which are scientifically proven to be intelligent). I’m sure some of my fellow autistics could chime in and tell how we’re percieved (spoiler alert, not great).
hello it’s me, a fellow autistic. we’ve had ai for a long long time now, even before LLMs. just not AGI. just because you don’t think it’s smart doesn’t mean it’s not AI. the code controlling the creepers in Minecraft is AI too
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is it misleading to call the code that’s controlling the creepers in Minecraft AI? only recently did people start complaining that AI isn’t smart enough.
Isn’t it just as likely that one religion across c all of human history was right than absolutely none from like a ‘logic’ standpoint?
I’m not a religious person, but the conclusion that all are wrong because all can’t be right is just bad logic and doesn’t follow from the premise.
Since it’s inconceivable that all religions can be right
It’s not that inconceivable. I think religions are flawed interpretations of a single truth that seems to be universal to human existence.
Study enough religions and you start to see how they rhyme.
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What’s your point? That religion is flawed? Then, yes, I agree, that was what I was trying to convey in my original comment.
The exclusivity is a product of man trying to control others. Just look at early Christianity, which was non-hierarchical and gender-equal. It was only later that it was turned into the power structure of Catholicism.
I would agree that it’s not “inconceivable”. I can conceive of it just fine. It’s just a pretty absurd idea.
The old ones are copying each other from oral traditions. Notice the common ideas from cultures along the Silk Road. The further away from it, the more different they become.
Would you agree that it is unlikely thst any religion is presenting that single truth correctly?
Absolutely, people who achieve enlightenment interpret the experience through the lens of their own culture. Buddhism is that truth seen through the lens of Buddha’s Hinduism, Christianity (minus anything Paul wrote) is that truth seen through the lens of Jesus’s Jew upbringing.
There’s even people who have achieved it nowadays that interpret life as a sort of video game.
You seem pretty certain that this “single truth” is achievable and that people have done so.
What if their reported experiences are just delusions?
What if their reported experiences are just delusions?
If people across time and space who have sought the answer to the question “What is the nature of the universe and what is the meaning of life” all came to the same delusion, then fuck it, let’s all be delusional together because it’s apparently inherent to human nature.
My point is that we have no idea they all had the same delusion. What each refer to as Enlightenment may be very different.
Even so, they may have all watched the same film, ingested the same chemical compounds or suffered the same childhood injury.
Your hypothesis would be comforting if true (particularly as we are not discussing supernature) but I remain skeptical.
we have no idea they all had the same delusion.
You have no idea that they did, and you have no idea they didn’t.
That’s why I said before that if you can see how religions rhyme, you can find a core message in all of them. And that, I think, is the truth.
Given we haven’t even defined Enlightenment between ourselves it’s unlikely everyone else who claims to have achieved it will agree have the same definition/experience.
You are correct I have no idea, but my prior expectation is that these experiences are independently located within each person’s brain, without any external connection.
Which is it then, is there only one or multiple gods? Was the earth conceived from dreams according to Australian Aboriginals, or did a deity created it by his/her own hands according to many other religions? Where is the single truth in this?
I didn’t know that about the Australian Aboriginals, I’ll have to learn about them. And what’s the difference between god dreaming the world into existence and god making it with their own hands? It’s all allegory for creation.
It’s not allegory when both religions claim to know objectively how the earth was made and yet contradict each other. Either one of them has to be true.
I came here for the hippy dippy “I think all religions are really about the same thing” line and was not disappointed.
Why are they all so flawed? What is it about essential human nature that we are not able to get right after so many tries? You’re saying that 300 wrongs indicate the proximity of a right. What if they’re all just wandering in the same huge valley of wrong?
Besides, these religions are not just philosophical perspectives that rhyme. They make hard claims which contradict one another.
They are all wrong… only Doug Forcett got it right
I mean yes, but that logic is pretty awful. By that logic, there’s no way creationism and evolution could both be right, so they both must be wrong.
Edit: yes yes I fucking get it. This was just me being pedantic about some guy’s statement, no need to get your fedoras in a knot.
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Yes. I know. This isn’t an actual comment about creationism and evolution. I’m talking about how “there’s disagreement, therefore everyone’s wrong” is a horrible line of thinking.
It’s not just the disagreement, it’s the fact that there’s no evidence for any of their contradicting claims.
We’re dissecting the logic of the quote, not arguing against evolution.
Indeed. But the quote is specifically referring to religions. Applying it to anything else is disingenuous unless he ever applied it to anything else (because it is indeed a flawed premise).
Again, not a great equivalent to what he said.
If you mean creationism to mean Christian doctrine then you do not get the mass nullification effect. If you mean creationism to mean all creation myths then of course you do. However, as soon as you add evolution it changes things because there is evidence for evolution and it “is predictive” and therefore testable. That means that you are not relying only on the existence of incompatible alternatives for nullification. This breaks his premise.
It is not a particularly great statement. But all the alternatives here in the comments seem to miss what he was saying.
The “logic” of his statement is that there are many incompatible religious options presented. The incompatibilities mean that they cannot all be right. The number of options serves as the “evidence” for wrongness. Without independent evidence to support any given option, the weight of evidence against it ( the combined likelihood of the other options ) is greater than the evidence for it it ( single option ). You could make the argument for each alternative individually until all have been eliminated.
You cannot do this if evolution is an option. It has more evidentiary weight than the aggregate evidence of the alternatives. Evidence wise, it is logical to take evolution as valid and reject the others. Remove evolution and the remaining portfolio of creation myths is left with no clear winner ( and hence the likelihood that they are all losers becomes logical ).
This argument only really works against non-syncretic religions, and there’s a whole lot of syncretic ones. It makes sense it would resonate to a British atheist though.
You only need to worship 1 thing in this world.
The Stanley Cup
The tennis one or the hydration one?
Or god is an asshole. He knows the correct way to reach heaven and only told one person.
As a religious/spiritual person I agree, and I don’t see how that’s a bad thing. In science we understand that our models are all wrong, and only the next most accurate representation of a part of reality until a newer discovery or testing allows us to make even more refined models.
All religions can benefit from an application of the scientific method.
Except most religious people think the scientific method is another religion.
[Citation needed].
No it isn’t. Unless you live in a bubble.
There are a lot of religions in the world.
And they are all full of self serving shit.
You know all of them?
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