i am not ordering cars from them anymore /s
yeah me too. I was like, about to and stuff.
Well then, I’m going to order twice as many cars from them next year as I did last year.
Plenty of brands stopped offering manual variants of plenty of models. IIRC BMW practically begged people to stop asking for manual variants, saying it just does not make any sense to mess with the supply chain and the production line and the car itself just to put an objectively inferior transmission inside it.
On the contrary, it makes no sense to put automatic transmissions into sports cars.
On public roads, you’re not gonna be able to drive them as fast as they can go anyway.
An automatic transmission may offer better performance, but you have 5x as much of that as you can use already.
What a manual transmission offers is the feeling of being in full control.
It’s simply more fun and engaging to drive.But apparently, cars aren’t made to offer the best experience possible anymore.
Auto transmissions are now cheaper and anyone can drive them, so the potential market is bigger. And that’s what matters, even up to the Lamborghini price bracket.What a manual transmission offers is the feeling of being in full control.
Being able to maintain a gear selection and being able to directly control the clutch are huge advantages in specific conditions like extreme weather or some off road terrain. A surprise shift during a curve in icy conditions makes me nervous every time for example.
If an automatic system allowed for direct control of gears and the ability to disengage and reingage the clutch on demand it would cover those scenarios.
The company car I get to use has an automatic transmission that drives me mad.
Its shift points are always right above the speeds I usually drive at.
It shifts into third at 40 km/h which is too fast for a speed limit of 30.
It shifts into fourth at 60 which is too fast for a speed limit of 50.
And it shifts into fifth at 80 which is too fast for a speed limit of 70.So you’re constantly driving with too high rpm’s, burning more fuel and making more noise than you’d have to.
It has a “manual mode” where you can shift by moving the stick up or down. But it doesn’t actually do anything. If you shift at a different point than the automatic would, you just get a “shift denied” message on the dash, even though the rpm’s wouldn’t even get close to being too low.
And when you push the gas pedal just a bit more than half, it shifts down and the engine roars, but it doesn’t actually achieve much cause the car doesn’t have much power.Internal combustion engines are most fuel-efficient at low rpm’s (<1500) and full throttle, and that’s impossible to do with this transmission. So it only gets 34mpg (7l/100km), and it’s a Diesel hatchback. My old manual car also had a 34mpg rating, but the way I drive I could get 47 (5l/100km), and it had a gasoline engine.
My current car with a stick is able to squeeze 34 MPG highway, 3 over the rated 31. However, the CVT version is rated for 38 highway in the same conditions.
What’s the torque band? Driving a diesel, it’s really high compression and torque is applied low in the rpm range. Gasoline is a lot lower compression and might be twice the rpm to get the most torque. Outside of that torque band and your using more fuel for less movement.
Every engine is the most efficient at max torque, which for a typical car’s gasoline engine would be around 4500 rpm.
But that “efficiency” means fuel burnt per unit of power. At max torque, the engine makes much more power than you need for normal driving, burning more fuel than necessary.
As a rule of thumb, you get the best real-world fuel economy at full throttle just above the low rpm limit where the engine would run “jerky”.
That’s at 1000-1500rpm for a passenger car’s gasoline engine.
At that rev range, you may only get 40 horsepower out of an engine rated for 100 at max torque, but that’s enough. You only need around 10 to maintain your speed against wind resistance, and you don’t actually lose any time accelerating slowly cause you’re gonna be at the next red light soon, anyway.For reference, when I’m accelerating from a stop to highway speeds, I’ll shift to 2nd gear as soon as I’ve moved one car length, 3rd at 30km/h, 4th at 40, 5th at 50, flooring the throttle the entire time I’m not shifting. Then I’ll stay in 5th unless I’m forced to brake below ~45 again. Up or down a hill I’ll go one gear lower.
In my Diesel van, I regularly drive 40 in 5th gear.I can’t make you take my word for it, but this is what I learned in a work-sponsored course for fuel efficient driving, and it got me much better fuel economy than the manufacturer’s claim for any car I drove in the past 20 years.
It’s been a while since I regularly used a car, but I remember the automatics my father had having some sort of logic that shifted up when driving at a constant speed, than back down when wanting to accelerate.
Now those where fancy pants Systems (I think they called them 7G-Tronic), but this was also over 10 years ago, and such logic doesn’t strike me as overly complicated, so I’m surprised there’s current cars with static shift speeds.
The systems used in these cars are dual clutch - they always offer (or only have) a manual shift mode, which will hold the gear you’re in until you say when, and only down/upshift if you bang the rev limiter or try to go below minimum RPM.
Can they be put in neutral at high speed and switched back to a gear at speed?
Technically, yes, there is a little automatic like shifter to let you select PRNDS (S or M for manual shift mode), but would you want to do that? nope.
My bigger q is, why are you doing a clutch kick in a supercar that will probably break if you try that? Most Lambos are 4WD, and 4WD cars will break stuff if you go for a clutch kick.
Not for a clutch kick, for conditions where steering without acceleration OR deceleration is safer. The best I can think of is gradual turns in icy conditions where it felt a lot more grippy in neutral at slow speeds.
Pretty rare, just a curiosity thing and without a pedal to gradually get back in gear it wouldn’t be the same anyway.
Why would coasting in neutral be more grippy? Coasting in a gear provides a safe amount of deceleration without the risk of causing the rear end to slide out. You can also just lightly touch the throttle to keep the same speed.
Well, at low speeds you can do that, it won’t hurt it. Dual clutch cars auto rev match if you don’t have your foot on the gas flat to the floor and there’s no danger of overrevving by being in the wrong gear from N in that case. Some dual clutch tansmissions are built like sequential boxes and can’t skip gears. The KIA dual clutch can in fact skip gears.
EVs don’t do any shifting and usually have a low center of gravity, even better for suspect road conditions!
My car has a gear shifter setting and it’s automatic, no clutch tho.
Same! I love my auto-standard combo! It’s fun to play with when I want, and not insanely annoying in traffic.
One of my cars (the only one that isn’t a real manual) has a “sport mode” manual upshift/downshift on its automatic transmission, and it’s FUCKING INFURIATING because there’s this huge almost-a-full-second lag between when you tell it to shift and when it finally gets around to doing it.
I would trade it for a manual transmission – even in stop-and-go Atlanta rush-hour traffic! – in a heartbeat if I could.
That’s fair! I’ve only driven standard in Initial D, and my car is for getting me and my things places so I have no use for a standard transmission. It is fun, I’m sure, but I’d teleport if I could.
My “daily driver” is a cargo bike, so pretty much all my cars are either sporty or 4x4s (and cheap/old/unreliable). The only reason I own the one mentioned above (which is a minivan, BTW) is that my parents insisted that I “need” a car that has more than two seats and actually works, just because I have two kids.
The funny thing is that I find nothing objectionable about the “minivan” part; my entire dislike for that thing is due to the “automatic transmission” part. I have seriously considered importing a manual transmission (and associated bits) from an Asian-market version to fix it.
What is “best experience” though? It’s such a subjective thing. For you it might be pushing a lever back and forth. For every one person like you, I bet there are hundreds who’d rather leave that menial task to the car. Manual transmission can quickly stop being “fun and engaging” and become a chore, especially if you drive through traffic regularly.
I, or rather my left leg, personally do not consider manual transmission as a good experience at all. I also think paying much less for fuel is also a very good experience for my wallet. Though of course I don’t drive a Lamborghini or even a nice M4, so there’s that.
They quit offering sticks because they use dual clutch transmissions, which do the job better.
What job, though?
When I’m driving a fun car, I want to actually drive it, not hold the steering wheel and push paddle-shaped buttons that ask a computer to shift for me (if it feels like it).Because the dual clutch is a lot faster at shifting than the standard manual, and you can put more gears on the dual clutch since you no longer have to deal with a growingly large shift pattern on a stick.
Top tip for dual clutch: You pull the shift lever slightly short of when you want to upshift. Your car will still accelerate while the computer sets up the shift (it has to do or verify the next gear is ready before pulling the trigger on the clutch switchover), and when it shifts, it is so fast the engine even sputters a couple times from the RPMs dropping so fast the timing is momentarily off on one or two ignitions.
All that happens in the span of time it takes for you to kick the clutch to the floor and reach for the stick in a standard manual.
Source: I’ve daily’ed sticks (including my current, and hopefully final gas powered car) and a dual clutch (my previous car). I still prefer the DCT over the stick.
We’re not on the same page here.
Yes, an automatic transmission with a dual clutch and paddle shifters obviously shifts much faster, has more gears, and lets you accelerate faster.
But my point is, even 200 horsepower in a sports care are already more power than you can legally use on public roads.
And stomping the clutch to the floor, then ramming a shift lever forward is simply more fun.
They shift faster, but shifting in the blink of an eye isn’t the only thing that makes driving fun. A true manual transmission requires you to be more engaged with the car. Vs tapping a flappy paddle or letting the car do it all for you.
I mean, the reality is that manual/standard transmissions are just fuel and effort inefficient at this point. There was a window where automatics were inefficient enough to make learning stick worth it but that is LONG gone. And CVTs, in apples for apples comparisons, kind of are the best of both worlds.
Still pretty shocked since I don’t think anyone buys a ferrari or a lambo because they want a reasonable high quality car and nothing screams “I am compensating” like wrapping your hands around that shaft while you drive but… if the goal is performance?
The main reasons you wanted a manual back in the day was price - because automatic transmissions were expensive - and fuel economy - because they were less efficient. (To a lesser extent reliability, because automatics were newer and they hadn’t worked out the kinks yet.)
However, the price of automatics fell, and the dual-clutch gearboxes with 7-10 gears are even more efficient because they keep the car in the most efficient rev range. Same goes for CVTs. And the dual-clutches shift faster than you ever could, so they’re better for sports cars, which is why F1 switched to them a long time ago.
So it makes sense that manuals are falling out of favor because they’re objectively worse in all respects compared to the transmissions available today. However, subjectively they’re a lot more fun which is why I have a manual transmission car I plan on keeping on the road well into the 2050s.
Fun and more control. I too am in the I bought a manual club. Twice my truck and my wife’s car are both manual transmissions with a clutch (third pedal).
I guess some of the new dual clutch transmissions are considered manual 🤔
A stick shift is also a fantastic anti-theft device.
My truck won’t stall in first if you slide your foot off the clutch when it’s completely pressed, so your results may vary.
Removed by mod
Nope. When Nissan came out with them they acted like normal CVTs without shift points, but people hated it so they added them in, and now they all do it.
Subaru, when not in Sport mode. Problem is, the same monkey brain in some people that hates everything but manual also hates the way CVT doesn’t have gears for most people in general, so they make fake shifts to satisfy the monkey brain in people.
Ferrari does it because they openly disdain their own customers. You will get performance the Ferrari way and you will like it. You’re lucky we even allow you to buy it. We put in the finest dual clutch transmission available because that’s the highest performance.
Lamborghini does it because they’re Audi’s with sharp edges. Audi is a company that advertises that its top trim can fit a set of golf clubs in back. They don’t want to bother their golf customers with a third pedal.
We put in the finest dual clutch transmission available because that’s the highest performance.
Half of them have had hip replacements, and half of them were on the left side, so they can’t work the clutch.
Their target demographic doesn’t care about manuals. Their buyers either are most likely buying a status symbol and the ones who are actually looking to drive them are looking to emulate the F1 / IMSA experience where absolutely none of those cars are manuals
If I had a car that powerful I wouldn’t want a manual either, no matter how fun it is. I’d grind the gears into powder on the first fast start.
Well when your customer base is mostly geriatric…
I got my license in the early 80’s, and at that time the cheapest cars were older american beaters with utterly terrible 2 and 3-speed slushbox automatics. The alternative were Japanese cars like Honda Civics, small, reliable, manual transmission cars that got great gas mileage and were way more fun to drive. All these years later I’m still driving a manual, currently a 2021 Toyota Corolla. It’s paid for, it gets around 35 mpg, and with regular maintenance it will run until the end of time.
I know American cars have improved a lot since the malaise era but you generally can’t get them with manual transmissions, so I’ll stick with the imports for now.
I started driving around the same time as you. I remember how common real VW beetles were and I don’t think any of them ever had automatic transmission - if they did I never saw one. I spent a summer driving one with no starter and a broken reverse gear, which meant I had to be very careful about where I parked it. Today’s kids will never know the fun that came from that situation.
What Ferrari and Lamborghini does doesn’t concern me but I’ll keep buying cars with manual transmission for as long I can get one. I wouldn’t buy a new car anyway so that alone gives me atleast 10 extra years. I still refuse to buy smartphones without a headphone jack either. Why? Mostly because of a principle.
What is the principle for manual cars?
They prefer fondling long shafts.
Same
I don’t mind driving a manual. Every car I’ve owned has had a manual transmission so automatic would be a solution to a problem that I don’t have. I like driving and I don’t want the car to do the driving for me.
I have not had a manual in many years, but I will say I would prefer to have one because, whether or not it’s actually true, I felt like I was in more control of the car and, because of that, felt safer. The peace of mind was nice.
Just bought a car with a manual transmission and I love it. Someone mentioned in this thread that they didn’t want the car to do the driving for them and I couldn’t agree more. Having control over the acceleration makes such a difference.
Yeah. You can’t buy a ford or chevy pickup in the united states with a manual transmission anymore.
I know they’re not supercars, or anything like that.
Big trucking companies are all going to automatic transmissions in their trucks as well.
I’m a school bus driver - buses with manual transmissions are long gone. The drug use and child molestation filters weed out enough potential drivers as it is.
Honestly DCTs make up for it, especially when your customer base is mostly people who don’t know how to drive anyway.
Using a manual is easy, but using it to go fast can actually be pretty hard. You have to time everything right, compensate for a bunch of conditions, coax the shifter because its using synchros, feather the clutch accordingly, heel-toe downshift correctly, etc. It’s extremely rewarding and useful if you actually want to have complete control over your car, but I doubt your average rich guy is gonna want to put that much effort into driving.
Manual shifting a modern Lambo would just be such a chore with how fast the RPM changes too (plus the loss of power from clutch would be even more noticeable). Current high end manuals just choose to stay with 6 gears so the gap stays comfortable, but you obviously lose some efficiency.
DCTs will do that all for you, the only thing you lose is a mechanical shifter (which if you’re into manuals you very much miss lol) and the ability to do some clutch tricks (ie loss of some mechanical controls because its automatic).
Now putting a regular old torque converting automatic transmission into a sports car is a waste (and has many examples of such). They are very slow because they aren’t deigned to rapidly change gears like you can in a manual. Even a CVT would be better from a practicality standpoint.
Formula 1 switched to semi-automatic in the 1980s. The technology has only improved over the last 40 years. If fast is what you want, driving a manual is insanity.
I made the mistake of buying an automatic once and i still regret it to this day because I’m still stuck with it.
Manuals only for me since thenI don’t give a shit that autos are faster, i don’t give a shit if they’re more efficient. Manuals are simply more satisfying and enjoyable—and that’s what driving is about.
Is that what driving is about? For me driving is about that I don’t live in the supermarket and I need the shit they have in there.
No, driving is about keeping the Saudi wealth faucet working.
Different people enjoy cars different ways. For many it’s just a tool to get from point A to point B. These are the majority, and tend to be a crowd who is now trending towards EVs and Self Driving Vehicles.
For others, driving is about the experience of how the car meets the road and is much less about the destination. I just planned a 10 hour drive with a group of my car friends with no destination, we’re just doing it to get out on some fun roads with our cars. These type of people love our manual transmissions, ICE cars and the experience of driving and see the car as less of a tool and more of a hobby and something to bring groups together.
Exactly. That’s why I didn’t define what driving is in general, but for me. And according to statistics, most people. Petrolheads and hobbyists are not a big enough market segment to make decisions on, apparently even for Ferrari and Lamborghini.
I am also 100% on the EV hype, 3.5 years and counting. Super uncomplicated, silent and zoomy.
Don’t drive if you don’t want to. There are other means of transport.
Not what I said and not an option for a lot of people.
Ride a bike.
Not what I said and not an option for a lot of people.
I bought a automatic bmw for the first time and was like: wow this is great. Being in traffic is way more relaxing and so on. I thought to myself: wow my last car was the last manual car i ever owned. Now i went back to manual and i couldn’t be happier. A lot of people tell me that aktually automatic is so much faster and you can’t shift as fast and so on. Yeah. I know. But i’m not racing anyone. I just drive on the weekends with a car that i lke.
Exactly, is just straight up for fun. I’d argue they’re safer too. You pay way more attention in a stick shift, looking ahead timing shifts with traffic flow, leaving space and coasting to red lights, and the extra speed control on steep windy mountain roads is amazing especially in the winter.
Was lucky to get a 2021 Crosstrek in a manual, which I guess Subaru doesn’t do in Canada anymore, so it’ll likely be the last ICE car I have. If I’m joining the zombie horde of alternating mashing gas or brake depending what’s happening 10m in front of me I better at least get some torque out of it.
I wish it were easier to find a manual here. Most people in the States couldn’t drive them if their lives depended on it, so if they’re manufactured at all it’s in very small quantities.
I’ve been driving used BMW Z3s for the last 15+ years. These days they’re way cheaper than even the crappiest normal used cars because nobody can drive a stick any more and nobody wants to have a two-seater as their daily driver. They cost less than a new bicycle (although that’s because modern bicycles have absolutely insane price tags attached to them).
I am so annoyed at Honda for discontinuing the Accord Sport 6 speed. I have one from about 10 years back and it is without question the best balance between efficiency, space, utility and fun. It is my “mom car” that can get the kids to school (now they even drive themselves, college daughter drops off high school kid on her way to school) and drives like a dream. I thought the Sport thing was just trim but apparently not, it handles better than my husband’s Mazda.
It’s not like I need a new one right now, or maybe even for ten more years. But God I miss being able to get manual shift at a discount instead of a premium. Honestly this is probably my last gas car and maybe last car, but dammit I am just sad.
Driving is about butt-chuggig 50 years of american propaganda to the point you can’t even differentiate you own opinion from a Facebook minions meme.
But yeah have fun filling yours and the rest of our bloodstreams with micro plastics cause vroom is more important
Jesus Christ. Breathe.
Man I’m trying to but its 35° and my city is drowning in CO
I’m not sure how me driving to work with an automatic vs manual transmission affects that but okay buddy
It’s about the whole driving experience stuff. Cars are utilitary and they made us believe it’s about passion.
I wrecked my car 3 years ago and we decided to not buy a new one. We’re doing just fine without a car. We need one from time to time but car sharing has proven to ve really cheap. It seems like we have spent over 600 Euros a mont on our car before. Now we just spend a fraction of that.
Riding for pleasure is something for the tracks, I suppose.
You couldn’t project any harder if you were a fucking Epson.
“They” don’t make me believe shit.Congrats on ditching your car. If people who didn’t give a shit about cars weren’t forced to drive we wouldn’t be in this mess.
Took me a while to get that reference. In my mind Epsons are printers not projectors.
I live in a country where cars are part of your salary. Especially because that part of your wage doesn’t get taxed. It is very clear that ‘they’ installed a very car centric thinking into society. Sure, some people aren’t affected or influenced but way too many people are.
Since a few years bikes are treated in a likewise manner and now 30% of my colleages chooses a bike over a car. That has resulted in a surge of bike sales and that unfortunately. made them terribly expensive.
I do like cars though. That’s why I hit the track a few times a year.
Because nobody wants them. Or rather not enough people want them. Hell, kids these days don’t even want to get their drivers licenses. For them Uber is good enough.
It’s not that I like manuals, it’s that I hate automatics randomly shifting and accelerating/slowing down randomly because of it.
It might not be as big an issue in bigger engines cars though, not driven anything bigger than a 1L engine in over a decade.
Looking forward to a direct drive electric car (with customisable acceleration profiles - even better!)
Don’t these sports cars usually have a mode where you can manually shift gears, but not with a clutch, but via the auto transmission?
Yes. There are +/- paddles on mine.
Source: My 2015 Hyndai Veloster TURBO
Flappy paddles <3
Source : audi a3The only name for them
Huh, so that’s what that’s for. Mines not a Hyundai but it does have a “sport” mode
My e-cvt is nice. No shifting at all and it is quite responsive.
I know autos are faster these days but manuals are so much more fun and always will be. It really sucks that they’re going away :(
They’re all fun and games until you’re in stop go traffic. I agree though I miss driving a manual. Also they were easier to work on and tended to be cheaper to fix. That might not be the case anymore considering you’re pretty much guaranteed to to have to special order parts.
Stop and go traffic with a manual after working out legs is something special
I actually found stop and go traffic jams with a manual easier. All i needed was the clutch and id use it to drive the average speed of the stop and go traffuc jam, even if it was 0.5km/h. Cant do that on my automatic, it will speed up to a set amount of km if i release the break and press the gas even a little.
Edit: i will admit i have big feet and driving is more foot work for me than it is leg work. My legs barely move while driving, not even to go from gas to break, so it might be easier for me, idk
I guess it depends on the car, but most modern cars it’s NBD to drive manual in stop-and-go traffic. There are a handful of models that can make it a pain (e.g. Challenger, Nissan Z), but Honda and Mazda and many others are easy peasy even in dense traffic.
And propulsion, way funner even if it’s worse.
I would disagree if we were talking about regular cars, but these hypercars should’ve manual transmissions still since they are an experience and I would think people, specially those in europe, actually take them to a track.
High-end has all been sequential for like a decade
Most super-cars are not a sequential. A sequential is usually the type of transmission you find in motorcycles. Most flappy paddle transmissions found in sports cars are either a dual clutch automatic or an automated manual.
They shift sequentially though via the paddles on the wheel.
Ok that’s the kind I meant, I’d say I’m right of the curve on car knowledge but I don’t like design gearboxes for Ferrari or anything. Genuinely appreciate the correction.
And recently also top end midrangers for some reason.
GMA T50 begs to differ.
I didn’t know what a dual clutch transmission was and found this excellent video while searching. Figured I would share it here. Pretty awesome! You get the direct gearing benifits of a manual with the shifting ease and speed of an automatic.
I once had a Veloster with a dry plate dual clutch. Identical in design to a standard manual, just with a different clutch system and input shafts design, and computery bits controlling it.
If you drove it the way you drive a stick, it would last a long time.
Got almost 175,000 miles on it before it had any problems. At that mileage, the car was well and truly worn out, so not worth fixing, but I would have fixed the problem (failed 2nd clutch motor, common issue on the KIA/Hyundai DCT) if the car wasn’t all worn out.
My friend has a Veloster with the DCT. My favorite feature is that the car has hill hold, but it still rolls back like a manual transmission half the time.
Also the DCT gets confused pretty easily. At least once in a 15 minute drive I’ll have it fail to shift properly and the whole car jitters. Or it just picks the wrong gear then immediately has to shift again.
The first part, yeah, if you’re on a shallow incline it doesn’t hill hold. But you also should never hill hold with the clutch anyway, so keep that foot on the brake until its time to go. Worst case, you left foot brake to get it to preload and then immediately let off the brake. But I never really needed to do that.
The second part could be an early warning sign of the second clutch motor failure. I remember it only started going a gear too low not too long before it went completely, if I had it on auto shift. I ran it in manual mode almost all the time, though.
It’s been stupid like that for 7 years now. I think the transmission is just stupid.
So you need to download a pdf?
