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The guy probably meant this in a misogininstic way but theres a reason why theres a male mental health crisis… not only are other people not taught how to treat men, men themselves dont know either
This. So many of our problems would be solved by saying that we love our sons and that we’re proud of them.
Two things that I never heard from my Dad.
And he never heard them from his.
I don’t fucking care. You find your son right now, look him in the eyes, tell him that you love him, and that you are proud of him.
Well one of main goals in life is not being like my dad. Long story(still ongoing somehow) but basically he ruined everything for us.
The day I realized that we don’t even know how to treat each other was a wild day for me. My friend group has been complimenting and building up each other for a while now. It’s amazing the change you’ll see just by having one dude say to another, “Hey, nice shirt my guy!” or something similar.
We opened for a national band tonight so a bunch of my friends were there. After having done this for a few years then reading this thread, I’m amazed to see just how much positive masculinity we had going on. There were compliments, talking up guys to others outside of just being a wingman (there was at least one case of being a wingman, too), lots of bro hugs, and a lot of genuinely happy guys.
It’s a hard thing to get going, but I’m glad we started doing it.
Oh, I know how to treat myself! I like to stand really close to the mirror and say all the things my parents used to say to me.
All people should be taught how to treat others regardless of their gender.
Exactly. Everybody should be taught to leave me the fuck alone.
More than that, people need to learn to read men. “Yeah I’m fine, don’t worry” is often a very quiet cry for help from a gender which is traditionally taught to show only strength and permanence and to never show outward signs of “weakness”.
It’s nothing short of traumatic, the upbringing where you don’t get to cry.
TL:DR Fuck the patriarchyI’ve given my kids tasers and shown them your comment. That should do it /s
Yes! Thank you. Not that people don’t have certain issues that may be somewhat gender specific but respect in general is first and foremost when it comes to how to treat others.
Violent and stupid response. Not even funny.
Idk, Johnny Bravo probably would agree with you
Something like 1/3 of women are victims of rape. This is the world women are forced to endure and try to survive in. That’s the point
“A nonzero amount of women have a tendency to demand respect and support from their partner but not give any in return, and some women actually need to be taught that relationships are a two way street, so make sure your daughters know that because not all of them will” – person who’s been burned a lot
“Anyone who says that is probably a predator” – OP for some god damn reason
As others have pointed out, the guy is likely coming from a misogynistic viewpoint.
That’s not a guarantee – assuming intent rarely pays – and it’s certainly not an excuse for you to threaten everyone else in this comment section who acknowledges possible misogyny but points out that the general sentiment is valid with a taser too.
I mean it is weird that society expects men to treat women a certain, positive way (which I’m on board with) while basically saying woman can treat men however they want tbh. Men can be victims too but nobody gives a fuck. This response is absolute garbage.
Bottom line: men and woman need to treat each other with respect and dignity.
Edit: nice kool aid man meme bro. Stay mad.
The entire way our society is structured is telling women how to treat men. For too long it told men they can treat women however they want which is why boys need to be taught while girls can learn it from literally everywhere around them. If anything girls should be taught to not let men treat them however they want.
For too long it told men they can treat women however they want
This is demonstrably false, as we have certain narratives that are literally millennia old (latin literature) about courtship, romantic gestures, protection and all the other stuff usually associated with how men should treat women. Usually this is some form of protection/care for a lower/weaker being, but it is absolutely a way society has been telling men how to tell women for centuries.
Bingo.
The point of the meme is that the guy is butthurt that from his perspective, no one has taught women how to treat men, yet he fails to realize we live in a society where the messaging for women is everywhere.
Girls and women most definitely need to be taught not to tolerate shitty behavior which is much more prevalent to them because men in our male-orientated society aren’t taught how to treat people. go out there. Earn. Be a good provider. Your value is only as much as what you produce. You need to have big shiny things to showcase your value. whispers society Don’t worry about your emotional development, that’s not important. A woman will straighten that out for you later
The guy above called me angry. I’m not really. Just disappointed that men are just finally starting to clue in that a lot of the media out and society’s views on men do not have male best interests at heart.
We can do better. I’m angry that we aren’t, and that the change is so painfully slow.
I’m an angry optimist.
I dunno. I think the messaging is everywhere for how to attract men, but I don’t see too much content about how to treat men either. Certainly historically that was baked into the message, pun not intended, but these days I feel like the message is “you are the table” (so long as you are attractive enough to get a date) which is in part reinforced by the validation from the dating apps women get.
My wife of 19 years still says “what are you getting me for my anniversary” and I have to remind her that it’s our anniversary. Until recently my happiness hasn’t really occurred to her that is something she should consider. It’s all about her challenges and how I can help her, and what she wants to do, or what she wants to watch on tv. I literally am not given a second thought and told I’m wrong until she gets her way.
Which society are you describing here? I’d like to move there
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As a father to two girls: When and if it comes to them dating boys (or girls for that matter), yes I’m going to give them some pointers. Like:
Ask them what they want! Everyone’s different.
Be nice to them and expect them to be nice to you.
Talk to them and expect them to talk to you (at least a little bit; everyone’s different).
If you love them, let them know you do.(And if they don’t reciprocate, you can always come back home and regroup.)
(edited for formatting)
I feel like society kind of does that for them? Not 100%, but most women’s magazine have a “how to please your man” section. Grooming for women is usually around looking young and pretty and feminine to men, hiding things or pushing/squeezing things for the best shape. While men’s story tend to be about self discovery, women’s media (until recently) was not telling women same message. Media for awhile was heavily focused on women being content as home makers. You gotta learn how to look to get a man after all and then have to do the house making to keep them. Keep yourself young and pretty so he doesn’t get a new model! You don’t like giving head? Or having men cum on your face? Oh, sorry, 90% of sexual media is geared towards men and their desires, and if you wanna keep him, you need to perform. Hell, some men don’t even think women can get pleasure from sex. Advertisements were geared towards being a “Good wife,” not a happy woman (unless you’re chuffed at being a wife). We have recent comics/memes about this. We laugh at them (“I was a scientist” VS “I raised 5 (all male) scientists”), but that’s in certain circles, these were not created to be jokes. There’s not as much as the reverse baked into society. Men didn’t have to learn how to treat a woman for, like, the bulk of our history. I think there’s a lot of focus on men attracting women (and extreme pressure on them to be the main providers), but not necessarily how to treat them. Women tend to do that with sons because, until fairly recently, no one gave a shit if you beat your family every night, rape within marriage was perfectly legal. Women couldn’t get a bank account without a man’s permission. In some countries women can’t leave the house without a man period. Society was teaching men that women were property, and it was usually only the mom in the man’s life that could say, “Hey kiddo, when you get a wife please don’t beat her.” if she wasn’t the kind of woman to say you should beat her.
This is not to say men don’t also suffer. Toxic masculinity has made a place where men have power, but lack the freedom to be vulnerable. Their mental health isn’t taken seriously because “men don’t cry.” Men don’t get “hurt,” men don’t get sad, lonely unless you’re “weak.” Don’t cry, because you’ll be told to “get a tampon.” Women who drank the kool-aid uphold this as well. Even toxic spaces that some men make for themselves (manosphere) are incredibly harmful to the men they say they’re there to uplift. All they focus on is how to get women, how to “catch one” with the bait usually a man’s wealth, or apperence. They don’t talk about how to find a loving partner, how men can look out for abuse, how men can protect themselves. Those men say women have until 25, they’re the gate keepers of “sex.” They make it seem like men and women are diametrically opposed
foes. I think there’s a huge lack in actual helpful male focused media. Like, I say the manosphere is awful, but I don’t readily know another space that could help men with their issues in less toxic ways. How many men have heard “just be yourself” or “work out” to solve their problems? When that’s all you hear, someone telling you something is better than nothing.TL;DR: I think men have the inverse problem. Women tend to have to be their own advocate for their treatment, but get the freedom to be cared for, heard, and have their mental health taken seriously. Men have the “power,” but not the freedom of expression, but a lot of that is the result of a society they created. It’s not so much “fathers need to teach their daughters how to treat men” (because I don’t think men are taught to even let women know that they have feelings, let alone telling their daughters), it’s that we need to allow men to be vulnerable and have people be supportive of them. We all teased the men for their alpha boot camps. Like women’s retreats aren’t weird either? I specifically remember a video of a man going “I am a man” while pushing some barrier and then crying in the man’s arms. He was ridiculed (and I was laughing too, I’m not innocent). Why? Why was that funny. He didn’t fall or do something dumb. He went to a program to find himself in some way, broke through a little, and was punished for it. Walz’s son is currently being hsrrased for crying by both men and women. What man wants to “feel” in that environment?
Your reply is really well thought out, and the crux of why I posted this meme in the first place (other than that I am a shitlord).
There are A. LOT. of shitty men out there. Tons. I hold a lot of disdain for my own sex, because the majority of them are caught up in the toxic masculinity paradigm and don’t even know it, or worse, refuse to acknowledge that it is indeed toxic. Even the male-orientated support communities often twist into some Jordan Petersen-esque Dutch oven. We have a lot of figuring out to do if we want to be healthy humans, and pave the way for future men to be healthy too. We need to be vulnerable with other men, and actually talk about thing bothering us. We need to build friendships that are built on more than just one shared hobby. The list goes on and on, and we have our work cut out for us
I agree with you, in that women don’t need to know how to treat men, because, like you say, it’s rammed down their fucking throats every time they turn around. What women need it to see the value in themselves, and stand up for it. Hit the bricks if he’s a twatwaffle. Men should do the same.
Finally, should you find yourself in a relationship, you need to take a hard look at your baseline assumptions. For instance, your partner is not there to make your life better, but rather compliment the already good life you supposedly have going on. They aren’t responsible for your emotional wellbeing. A good partner will certainly care about this and want to foster this, but it is not into them for you to be happy in the relationship.
Well said and very balanced
this might be the most bullshit statement i’ve ever heard in my life
from the day they’re born, girls are raised to submit to, obey, and make themselves the property of men and change their name to his. that’s only a few things in a long list of stupid bullshit that women have to deal with. i’m not surprised in the slightest when incels whine about “women aren’t throwing themselves at me every minute of every day!!!” but it’s never not funny
I don’t know what part of the world you grew up in, but that hasn’t been my experience at all. All the women I know have been brought up to know this is the old way, and any man who thinks along those lines is a man to avoid.
All the women I know have been brought up to know this is the old way, and any man who thinks along those lines is a man to avoid.
and i’m sure they’re thankful to you for speaking for all of them.
how many of them choose man instead of bear?
me when i repeat something someone has told me to someone else (I am speaking for them and drowning out their opinion)
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dont know why youre downvoted
Because the point the dude is making is valid if you take the misogyny out of it. That guy might be an absolutely sexist piece of shit I dont know.
But there are some very entitled women in the world, some women just dont realise that everything women DESERVE is a 2 way street. Ive broken up with women because they expect respect, gratitude and support from their partner in everything they do but give none of it in return.
I was a project car guy for a great many years and I had a girlfriend who complained about every dollar and hour I spent on it (despite me also doing the servicing and maintenance on her car) would say things like “When are you going to grow up?” Whenever I got excited about something for the car and (the moment I decided to break up with her) was when I finally buttoned up the last details on an engine swap and went into the house and said “Its FINISHED!” and she turned to a girlfriend she had over and said “Awww look, he thinks he is manly”
Now Imagine if my girl had come out to me and my mates working on the car and said “I got my hair done!” and I turned to the boys and said “Awwww look, she thinks she is pretty.” If I told her “I dont know why you bother” when she tried to cook or continually criticised her shopping and spending on clothes and makeup…
Men in a relationship deserve to be treated like a full and equal partner with feelings too.
You definitely have a point, and there are definitely women like the one you described in the world. Men 100% deserve to be treated with equality and respect. I’m sorry that you had that experience with your former partner. It’s a garbage, disrespectful move from someone who is supposed to have your back.
But your point does ignore the fact that a majority of women have been raised by parents and by society to be subservient to men. The person who posted this originally wanted to know why women aren’t taught how to treat men, but the fact is that we are. Constantly. Whether we want to be taught or not. Most of us have learned to do this so deeply that it’s second nature. Most of us don’t even remember learning it because that’s just the way that it is.
This is for a wide variety of reasons, but most of it boils down to men having control over the world for thousands of years and women trying to find the best way to survive and occasionally excel in a world made for and by men. Remember that we used to be (and often still are) considered property. It’s taken a really long time to get as far as we (women) have. My sex has only been able to vote in my country for 100 years. That’s not a lot of time to make major changes in public perception and major societal shifts. We’ve grown a lot, but these shifts come with growing pains.
If we lived in a world where women have to be taught how to treat a male partner well, that means that society isn’t doing the teaching anymore, and while yes, women should treat men with equivalent respect, it’s still a huge improvement societally that women don’t develop ingrained subservience. The woman that you previously dated sounds like part of those growing pains. Some people are always going to take things too far because the line had not previously been defined (even though the golden rule should be pretty common sense).
Conversely, men often have to be taught this because society doesn’t do the teaching. Society is cool with men following the status quo.
Does this give a woman a solid reason to treat another human like trash, no matter their gender? No. This is the big reason why I think feminism is so important. People hear that term and think it means pro-women only, but what it really means is equality for all genders. Full equality should be the goal even if it ends up hurting women a little. For example, one of the few privileges women have that men don’t have is in the courtroom. Women tend to have better outcomes because of biases about our weakness and innocence. Feminism would be working to dismantle something like that even if it gives women an advantage.
Equality is important, but understanding women’s historical growth and struggles is important, too. Women have been taught ad nauseum how to treat men well, but some women are going to make different choices. At the end of the day, I agree with you. I just want people to remember how hard the struggle was for women to get here, understand how far we still have to go to gain real equality, and respect the societal pressures that we deal with every day.
Conversely, men often have to be taught this because society doesn’t do the teaching. Society is cool with men following the status quo.
I wanted to briefly add to this that in WW1, one of the primary concerns of frontline commanders was that the soldiers literally couldn’t take care of themselves. They couldn’t sew, cook for even themselves, clean their clothes properly. I remember a quote from one soldier saying that, to paraphrase, ‘back home mom does everything.’ And then goes on to mention feeling rather helpless when doing even basic things a person needs to do to survive.
So I’m sorry about this entire thread, and, well, this entire issue, to insert my Canadian background on said issue.
I can see how careful you’re being with what you posted, and frankly, I’m sad you have to do that. The fact is men have had it easier for most of our history, and they really hate looking at said fact. Do men have legitimate issues? Absolutely, and feminism addresses them all. ‘The patriarchy’ hurts men and women both.
So, yeah, thank you. :)
I won’t lie; I cried a little when I read your comment. It’s really validating and rare to truly be seen. I do tread very carefully to be appropriate, fair, and reasonable in my responses, but I never really expected anyone to see that. I appreciate your comment more than I know how to say.
This is a tough topic because, like you said, it affects literally everyone, no matter their gender, and everyone has different experiences and opinions. I just want everyone who is forming an opinion to see as many different sides and experiences as possible to, at the very least, make an informed decision on the state of gender politics. I know that everyone has their personal biases, and no one wants to give up privileges or power, but at the end of the day, again, like you said, the patriarchy hurts all of us.
I appreciate you. <3
I won’t lie; I cried a little when I read your comment. It’s really validating and rare to truly be seen. I do tread very carefully to be appropriate, fair, and reasonable in my responses, but I never really expected anyone to see that. I appreciate your comment more than I know how to say.
Well fuck me, 'cause I shed a tear reading that, so consider it repaid. I don’t know how to respond either, other than to say it feels great to ‘hear’ you say that. I do see your struggle and if it helps any, there are more people like me who see it too, yet don’t know to (or how to) let you know.
I just want everyone who is forming an opinion to see as many different sides and experiences as possible to, at the very least, make an informed decision on the state of gender politics. I know that everyone has their personal biases, and no one wants to give up privileges or power, but at the end of the day, again, like you said, the patriarchy hurts all of us.
And I wanted to thank you for diving through all of the… responses here, and maintaining your composure. I won’t to pretend to understand how you do it, but it is extremely impressive. The moreso because we’re all fighting the same enemy (the wealthy) and again we see men jumping to attack a Lemmy Shitpost for being too unfair to men or whatever. The patriarchy of wealthy people are all our enemies.
I appreciate you. <3
So this is the part I really teared up, thank you very much. It never feels bad to hear it, and I appreciate you as well. I will continue to exist here, absorbing downvotes in my unchecked anger, watching you navigate through with poise.
I think that in fact in at least some cases the lack of respect (or general ability to live a relationship with a man in a mutually loving way) is exactly due to that education. At the end of the day the flipside of the “subservient” attitude is that the man in the relationship is represented as a provider, with all the gender stereotypes that come with it: lack of emotions, self-reliance and of course the expectation for him to be a provider. I would say that most of the examples of bad relationships in this thread boil down to exactly these dynamics.
Also we are not anymore in the 1950, so that education today mostly happens implicitly, but it also gets mixed up with a lot of other messages from the wider society.
I personally also disagree about the fact that men are not taught how to fit in their gender role. I think they are, since very little, symmetrically to how women are too and possibly even more explicitly: you need to protect women (incl. sacrificing because that’s what heroes do), the whole courtship thing, the fact that as a man you are responsible to provide for others, that there are certain activities that are manly, etc… Essentially is the exact same problem: gender stereotypes and sexism go both ways and impact both genders, although in different ways.
Feminism is a tool of the ruling class, like racism. A way to turn the working class against each other instead of the ruling class, the owners. That’s why they give feminism so much space in the media and in universities, because it doesn’t really touch the real issues of the world, the billionaires and millionaires exploiting everyone and everything. It doesn’t threaten their rule over the world, by design.
My sex wasn’t allowed to vote in my country 120 years ago either - because only the nobles, the landowners, the priests and the bourgeois were allowed to. Most of the people, regardless of sex, were not allowed to vote.
I would say that what you said applies not to feminism in general (who historically had strong links to class struggle and anticapitalism), but to a part of the modern status quo feminism which is focused purely on individuals and has been absorbed by the ruling class (e.g., once the CEO is a woman, the goal is reached). This is not a representation of feminism in general though, and I would say the same can apply to many other movements as well (e.g., ambientalism, antiracism, etc.) that (in part) lost their revolutionary nature and are left fighting for small changes within the status quo.
I’ve been screamed at a lot for daring to sit at the short edge of a rectangular table while in the presence of a man. Does that count for father-daughter lessons? This thread is wild.
I think you know why.
This experience exists and I’ll fight against it where I can. But it isn’t universal and relationships go both ways. If you can’t even conceive of an equal relationship between a man and a woman, then I can’t conceive of you as a feminist. It’s just misandry at that point.
lol as a dude, i find it hilarious to be called a misandrist.
ok, you got me
No, in most they aren’t raised to submit. Rather be independent and most end up thinking Man is optional and see no value in relationships. Only to hit the wall at 35
You’re not necessarily wrong in the last bit, but…
No, in most they aren’t raised to submit.
Bro, this ain’t slavery 😂
You know what I mean 😅
Oh, no it is. I’m an agent of chaos.
The reply speaks more loudly than the original comment.
Someone call an ambulance… BUT NOT FOR ME!
Better prep the burn ward!
This comment section is a shitshow and OP admits to being a troll. Locking this thread.
Unless I’m supposed to know the first guy for something, this is either nonsensical or fucking stupid in some way i haven’t thought of yet.
