To the ~33% people who have downvoted this: you’re literally arguing against a person’s right not to have their body receive unnecessary surgical manipulations until they’re old enough to actually consent to it. Babies are not their parents’ property. Let people decide when they’re adults.
Unfortunately a lot of Americans believe children are the property of their parents. We need a children’s bill of rights.
The UN already has that, the convention on the rights of a child. Every UN country except the United States has signed.
Children don’t pay taxes and cannot vote so good lol with that :-/
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A history of being discriminated against doesn’t excuse awful customs
Referencing the fact that the vast majority of AMAB Jewish babies get circumcised is racist?
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That’s a problem felt throughout society because of the reaction we were taught to give in relation to Islam and Judaism and because of a power dynamic.
You’re a Nazi antisemitic dickhole if you criticize Judaism in the US and you’re a xenophobic islamaphobe if you criticize Islam in the US, but because Christianity has enjoyed the position of power it has in the US it’s ok to “punch up” as it were.
I hate them all equally, but just hope people separate the people practicing the religion from the religion itself. I hate organized religion, not religious people of any religion.
I’d quibble with you here that there actually are an alarming number of antisemitic nazis and xenophobic islamophobes in the US, primarily among Christians. Criticisms of all heinous religious practices will quickly devolve into bigots chiming in to complain about their personal ignorance. There is so much overlap between various religious beliefs and practices that practically any criticism of faith is valid against just about all religions. So most of the time, if you are singling out one particular sect or ethnicity, it’s because of prejudice against those people.
Targeting Christianity ensures that you’re not singling out one particular ethnicity or nationality, and it’s far less likely to attract bigoted sympathies.
You okay, m8?
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So, no?
Idk why maybe cause the us is more popular on the internet and Christianity is the most popular religion there? When I used rrddit and had traveled to India there was this united states of India subreddit and many people were complaining about stuff like forced ear piercing in females due to religion and stuff.
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Anyone promoting chopping off a piece of a baby’s body and literally sucking the piece off with their mouth should be taking some flak. I mean, think about that idea for a minute. What the fuck?!
How is that antisemitic? Honest question. What am I missing?
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Ok, suggest a form of parodying a circumcision in a meme that isn’t racist, according to you.
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The only race mentioned in this meme is the human race.
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Unless you got yours done by a rabbi using his teeth, your opinion doesn’t matter on this topic.
And I’m sorry, but a parent’s religion shouldn’t be more important than the child’s right to choose if they have their whole dick.
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How is it racist to protest against genital mutilation?
Do you think that anyone born with a cleft palate, cleft lip, hemangiomas, craniosynostosis, facial palsy, or any corrective jaw surgeries should be told to wait until 18 when all of these procedures are far less effective and far more difficult to do?
Being born with a foreskin isn’t a damn defect!
None of those are comparable to genital mutilation based on physical appearance. All those other things directly impact a person’s quality of life.
Fair enough, there are quite a bunch of other cases where it might be justified to accept an imperfect form of consent. Still, it might be argued that some of those are necessary surgeries.
Which ones?
Yeah, not clicking on that. Anyone got a summary?
The key words there are unnecessary surgical interventions. Yeah, if your child’s appendix bursts you can have it removed. Having a foreskin is not a medical problem.
Yah this should be true for any action except stuff like important medical surgery due to complications and surgery for facial defects BUT IRREVERSIBLE FORESKIN REMOVAL WITHOUGHT MEDICAL REASONS IS MORALLY WRONG
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If my son wants to be cut
Why the hell would he want to? If there’s no medical reason, there’s no reason at all.
At that point, he would be an adult making a decision. It doesn’t matter why for us in regards to his choice. Maybe he becomes religious or succumbs to social pressure. He could get a Prince Albert, too, or those weird beads.
As a parent it’s their job to protect him from harmful societal norms and religious indoctrination until he becomes an adult. Hopefully the education sticks long enough for him to deeply understand and respect his body, to seek out more helpful mentorship when needed, and pass along that education and protection to his future potential children.
It’s not that I disagree, I just can’t imagine anyone who’s not broken in the brain to want this.
Tell that to the chick who turned herself into Barbie or those twins that did… whatever it was to themselves and thought it looked anything but horrifying.
Yes, I’m straight up saying they’re objectively ugly af. Don’t even care if that’s some kind of discrimination. They’re just dumb, they made a stupid mistake, and I don’t even think they’ve admitted it to themselves yet.
They had every right to do it though. It was just a bad idea in every single humanly possible way.
I’m from muslim family but atheist and have nothing against it. Like, it is just operation that become too popular at some point. Or was forced on people to prevent an epidemy of some sort. It is still recommended across many surgeons at least as far as i know. It is just easier to recover from when you are younger. Similar to recovering from smallpox.
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I am surprised by amount of negativity on this sub. Like it is almost impossible to have a decent conversation. People just go nuts about operation which is about hygiene. Good luck, guys. I just don’t see myself here
Yeah, why would so many people have negative views on chopping off part of a baby’s body?
Weird.
I’m cut, and like it that way. But your position is flawed.
If you believe in evolution then you can agree that foreskin exists for a biological function, right? It’s not about hygiene, that’s dogma. It’s wild that it’s based in religion originally because if ‘god’ made you in his image it’s pretty fucked up to immediately alter a baby to be different.
It’s funny when people assign the term ‘negative’ to anything they don’t want to hear about.
You don’t have to read anything you don’t want to. Move on if you don’t have anything to contributeIt was originally the Jewish convent with God. Idk why I was sliced, but it became common in the U.S.
It’s an oddly barbaric tradition to keep around for so long without a religious rationalization. Most circumcised Americans are not Jewish
If you’re an absolute pig that doesn’t wash his penis, yeah it’s better for hygiene. I have a better solution than chopping of your peepee, though: how about you fucking wash it?
Atheists are angry a lot, especially young ones in the us.
With how much religion has damaged the world, can you really blame them?
Yes and no, I was an angry atheist for a long time, now I’m a live and let live agnostic.
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Yes many surgeons recommend operations for no reason at all.
Surgeons idk obstetricians absolutely do.
The smallpox analogy is false. It is a simple procedure as an adult. There is no reason to force it on people who can’t consent.
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isn’t this true for a heap of non Jewish American males too?
Mostly just in USA (any maybe Canada?)
America isn’t near the top, here is a map from Wikipedia:
I think the difference is that it is performed in the US even without religious background.
Usually this happens because the parents would be Jewish or Muslim.
IIRC in America it was done as a supposed way to curb masterbation, and as time went on it instead stuck because nobody ever questioned it much.
People today still try to defend it with alleged hygiene and health benifits, mainly because people rarely take “your penis has somthing wrong with it” very well regardless of how kindly you phrase it.
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Wow. This is the first I’ve ever heard of WW1 being referenced as a hygiene standard. Do you have a source for that?
The world war is called the world war because a ton of countries were involved and the US were the only country that had problems with foreskins?
I don’t think this is true
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They’re not wrong.
mutilate
verb
transitive verb
1 : to cut up or alter radically so as to make imperfect
2 : to cut off or cause severe damage to a limb or essential part ofIdk I think it’s rather perfect just so.
But it has been mutilated.
Or Christian
If you look at the map the predominantly Christian regions are by far at the bottom of the list with the exception of the US and Australia.
K? They’re not zero and I know my dick is the way it is because of Christianity.
That 20-80% variance makes it look as though Australia and America have the same rates of circumcision
Yeah what a weird scale.
Researchers like, “I ain’t tryna look at Icelandic dick tho”
Did you mean Greenland? Iceland looks in the 0-20% category.
Or am I just not getting a joke…
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It’s interesting how many apparently religious people feel the need to hang out in an atheist community.
The amount of concern trolling that happens in here is astonishing… And frankly the amount of anti trans, anti gay replies and up votes in the replies here is concerning.
People like to concern troll about how their specific religion gets targeted while simultaneously bashing on the gays. It’s infuriating. We need much more stringent/frequent bans. Reddits r/atheism was like this too before they actively started banning people for it.
There was an entire subreddit dedicated to the sheer amount of concern trolling, JAQing off, and other crap that r/atheism had to endure. It was r/ShitAtheismTakes and was set up by one of the moderators, iirc. I don’t believe this community is safe from those same trolls, and more moderation will be needed to keep them at bay. Religious folk attack in droves.
It should, but it won’t because every time someone tries to outlaw circumcision Jews will kvetch about it and call them a nazi
Damn. I’m not even an atheist and I agree with OP. Your take is just antisemitic.
We should take this a step further though. Any kind of genital mutilation should be illegal, including bottom surgery.
It’s not my take on it, it actually happened in Germany where both Muslims and Jews cried out that depriving them of their right to snip baby dicks is nazi persecution
It’s also happened in a few places in the US. Cities or states tried to outlaw the practice and religious communities screeched about not being allowed to carve up babies’ bodies.
You mean illegal without consent right?
Damn I should tell my surgeon he mutilated me. And my other surgeon, who took out my tonsils, also mutilated me. My dental surgeon, the wisdom teeth removal - believe it or not, also mutilation. Don’t even get me started on my dad’s heart surgeon, that butcher.
Moron.
I’m sorry but yes, you should consider bottom surgery mutilation. There’s a difference between the other things but I’m sure you’re missing it.
The big difference is the consent; bottom surgery is done with the consent of the patient and circumsicions are typically done to babies who have no say in the matter. Heck, if someone wants to get circumsized later in life, they absolutely should be able to. Don’t get the whole thing about ‘mutilation’, adults should be able to do whatever they want to their bodies.
Bottom surgery is literally, definitionally, not mutilation when it’s done for a consenting adult.
If you want to call bottom surgery mutilation by your own definition, then literally every surgery is mutilation. But like, cutting out my defective heart and installing a working one, while technically “mutilating” me, is objectively a good for my health.
You can call surgery mutilation if you want, but it isn’t helpful to anyone and it only serves to make transphobes feel good about themselves.
So someone getting bottom surgery after their penis was irreparably damaged in an accident is being mutilated? Or someone treating a medical issue so they stop passing out from their Cramps? Wow, I’m glad my doc mutilated me out of pain. 🤦
Do you always try to start arguments by making shit up about what the other person said? Yes? Ok then, you do you I guess.
You’re saying that bottom surgery is genital mutilation. They’re giving examples of situations where even a transphobes should agree that bottom surgery is good. If it is mutilation in those examples, then you agree with what they said. If it isn’t mutilation in those examples, then it isn’t mutilation in the first place.
We should take this a step further though. Any kind of genital mutilation should be illegal, including bottom surgery.
You said bottom surgery was mutilation and should be illegal. Those are both bottom surgeries, therefore by your own statement you think they should be illegal. I don’t have to make shit up when you already did that for me.
Sounds like you don’t understand the concept of consent.
I’m going to assume you meant to reply to Eleazar.
I missed the sarcasm.
It should be noted that some adults decide to receive bottom surgery and that’s respectable. It’s clear some people here don’t get the nuance.
Why does any kind of bottom surgery have to be illegal? Why not just limit it to consenting people above the age of majority?
Grouping bottom surgery with genital mutilation makes you sound like an alt-right troll, and it bugs me that this is well received on this website.
Edit: “I’m not even an atheist” means absolutely nothing. You’re just teaming up with an atheist in an online argument to bash Jews.
Bottom surgery should only be illegal if it’s done nonconsensually. Adults should be able to do whatever they want as long as it doesn’t pose a significant risk to their health.
Adults should be able to do whatever they want as long as it doesn’t pose a significant risk to someone else’s health
Fixed that for you. Don’t give conservatives ammo to legislate my right to tattoos away.
Tattoos do not pose a significant risk to your health. Yes, there is a risk, there’s also a risk from riding a bike or going swimming. If it would put a person at significant risk for major health issues it should not be legal.
The problem is giving conservatives the opportunity to define “significant risk”
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Interesting comments and opinions. I know that coming from a non-religious family, I was circumcised after birth because the doctors stated that it was better for hygiene. However, I got an infection (from the surgery) and spent 3 extra weeks in the hospital, nearly dying.
Thankfully, my following siblings were not put in that situation (and I had no long-term issues). And although I do believe that it is better for hygiene, it also takes the majority of nerves out.
Today, I believe that it should be an optional surgery or when medically required. In today’s world, it is largely unnecessary.
It’s not better for hygiene if you just wash your dick when you shower.
Yes! Humans literally evolved to have a foreskin so it has to provide an advantage beyond any added risks, even under pre-historic hygiene conditions.
If it truly posed a health risk then that would immediately impact an individual’s ability to reproduce and it would have shrunk and disappeared over thousands of years of breeding.
Hundreds of thousands of years of evolution vs one dude a couple thousand years ago who really wanted a piece of that baby’s dick
Idunno man, I gotta side with the millenia old shaman, he assures me that God wants my son’s dick hacked up
It’s not that it doesn’t have any benefits, but also doesn’t offset the downsides but seems easier to keep proper hygene as I’ve heard horrible stories like guys who were never taught proper hygene.
- a 10 times lower risk of a baby getting a urinary tract infection (UTI) in his first year of life (1/1000 odds)
- no risk of infants and children getting infections under the foreskin
- easier genital hygiene
- much lower risk of getting cancer of the penis (1/10,000+)
- a possibly lower risk of men getting sexually transmissible infections (STIs) than men who are not circumcised (although these studies have not been scientifically confirmed and safe sex practices are far more effective in preventing these infections).
https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/conditionsandtreatments/circumcision
Fingernails cause problems too. Let’s rip those off at birth.
- No more hangnails
- No more cleaning dirt from under them
- No more ingrown nails
Let’s also take off the auricle, the outer part of the ear. If people aren’t taught how to properly clean behind it, it can get dirty.
- Don’t have to wash behind it anymore
- No more risk of cauliflower ear
Read back, like I said several times I don’t support circumcision. However, there are benefits that don’t just disappear because of the cons. Everything has pros and cons that should be accounted for.
And the fact of bringing unrelated debate into it just makes it look unorganized and unfounded basis. But you can message me if you want to debate about finger nails and removing parts of the ear…
I think we’re all on the same side here but I think that person’s analogy is valuable because it demonstrates the disconnect in logic between the perceived value of the “health risks” that are being avoided versus the risks, harm, and morals of permanently modifying someone’s body against their will under false pretenses.
And an infinitely increased risk of a baby getting an infection and dying from having a piece of their body cut off, yay!
I mean, like I said I nearly died and don’t support it. Although, there are benefits and chance of infection is very low at least in a 1st world country. There are many other things with higher chance that could impact a child, like the high chance of foreskin infection.
Balanitis in a small degree nearly affects all men with an intact foreskin. The vast majority of cases are quite mild. Most child get what’s called chemical balanitis which is just a small amount of redness associated with the foreskin releasing. True infected balanitis occurs in approximately 5% of the population of boys of less than 5 years of age.
And I guess its a common problem, go figure people and kids especially don’t practice proper hygene.
Having had that, it’s extremely mild, a tiny bit of discomfort for a couple days. Not worth removing the foreskin for. We don’t cut off people’s ears because kids often get ear infections.
And that’s your experience and opinion. The article states that 5% have more than mild cases, and some should be medically removed for medical reasons.
Everything has pros and cons, but I’m not making the choice for anyone else. That’s their choice, but it should still be a choice.
And I don’t see how cutting off an ear would reduce ear infections, as it’s typically the canal that’s infected, not the ear. A lot more involved, and I can’t find any benefits like I could for circumcision. Although, you could be onto something as I’m sure there is data for piecing infections? Is this the reason for changing topic?
I’ve purely stated facts with supported links and haven’t seen the same. Constructive discussion is great but that has yet to be seen yet. So I’m probaby gonna move along with my day and hope you have a great day as well.
The point is removing body parts before they get infected, because there is a small chance they’ll get infected is idiotic. There’s plenty of downsides to being circumcised, like caratanized glans, leading to reduced sensitivity, and difficulty finishing. Not to mention the many times too much skin is taken off, which can make all erections for said dicks owner very painful.
And a choice, sure, for adults, who’ve lived with their foreskins and understand what they are losing, not babies or young children who’re not at an age to understand what’s being taken away.
As for the ear, not having an outer ear would make it easier to clean the ear canal, and for wax to drip out, so it would reduce canal infections. But we don;t do that, because it’s better to just treat the few infections, than to remove someone’s organs as a baby.
Terrible analogy, the outer part of the ear isn’t what allows the infection to happen.
Lacking an outer ear would allow wax to drop out more easily, and make the canal easier to clean, so it should reduce infections.
And what happens if you are, as a random example, a desert tribe with scarce resources?
If you’re a desert tribe with scarce resources, maybe don’t be performing unnecessary surgical procedures on infants? Just a thought
As a general rule, I don’t presume to tell people living under wildly different and much harsher circumstances that I know better survival methods than they do.
Well, I might recommend they use some of their scarce water supplies and soap instead of spit for this particular example, but other than that.
What a dumb thing to say. I am more than comfortable telling people living under wildly different and much harsher circumstances that cutting their babies dicks is not conducive to a thriving society. It turns out people with foreskins drink and eat just as much as those without, and they have the added benefit of never dying from their penis getting infected because someone really wanted to cut part of it off.
Well, glad to see Lemmy kept the community of Reddit experts.
And what percentage of modern circumcised people does that apply to?
Give it another thirty years and we’ll see!
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My only issue with this is that it is specifically directed at jewish people. This is common practice in america regardless of whether you’re jewish or not. For example I’m circumcised and my parents have never been jewish. Otherwise yes, stop circumcising your kids.
Yes, but this is pointed at Judaism because of the whole ‘mouth on penis’ bit, hence the straw.
But it was normalized through Judaism and Christianity.
Also criticizing Jewish people is no different than criticizing religion as a whole which this sub generally does.
Sort of. It is a religious practice in Judaism, and was normalized in the USA by the Kellogg wellness horseshit as a cure for masturbation, and has almost nothing to do with Christianity. He was ostensibly a Seventh Day Adventist, but his actual beliefs and practices didn’t really resemble any organized religion at the time.
I learned the story of circumcision through a Christian church and was told it was god’s way of promising he’ll never directly punish humanity again. Kinda like the rainbow thing with the flood.
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Whether you personally like it that way is irrelevant. It’s cosmetic surgery performed on people who cannot consent. You should oppose it for that reason alone.
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People aren’t against the option for adults to choose to get circumcised.
Man idunno, I don’t have a problem with my dick (small as it may be), but it kinda bothers me that some doctor cut a piece of it off when I was a baby.
How do you know you’re happy with it compared to not being circumcised?
Wouldn’t it be amazing if the head of your dick had some sensitivity?
I’m circumcised and I have plenty of sensitivity in the head of my dick. How would someone who isn’t circumcised know how much or how little sensitivity a circumcised dick has? And if uncut dudes are even more sensitive than cut, do you all have problems with premature ejaculation? I can’t imagine being any more sensitive. I’d be creaming just from wearing underwear and moving my body.
I’m not pro circumcision or anything, I’ve just always felt that the sensitivity thing is such a stupid, weak argument because in my experience of both being circumcised and also being pansexual and spending plenty of time around other dicks both cut and uncut, it’s bullshit.
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Being against genital mutilation is somehow antisemitism now?
I’m continually surprised at the list of things that are “antisemitic” now.
It doesn’t matter if people who believe in fake shit think it is an important part of their religion, it’s genital mutilation and it’s done to babies who do not consent.
It’s barbaric, disgusting and should be illegal.
It is not antisemitism to think a single practice choice of a religion is bad.
A friend of mine has had lifelong complications from this unnecessary medical intervention on infants.
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Agreed. I was being polite. There are a few very small number of times foreskin medically need removing but like any other ectamy there is chance of complications, so should only be done when absolutly needed.
As I said my mate was mutilated by it so bad he is unable to have full sex, which has both physical and mental scars on his life.
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That’s not a medical intervention.
This just in, all abrahamic religions are actually pretty bad, even the one that gets unfair hate
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that map has to be wrong. it’s rare in Australia, it was deemed unnecessary and cruel in the 70s. only people over 50 have it here unless they suffer from certain religious affliction.
My weewee is sliced, I don’t mind.
guess you don’t know what you’re missing if you never remember having it
I remember having it. It’s all right without.
please comment why you do not agree. What is your experience? Or are you just trolling?
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Same. A lot of people throwing stones in here. Instead of being sympathetic for people who didnt have a choice in the matter they just are harsh and judgmental about it. I dont think they realize how it makes people who are circumcised feel. Whenever I read people making fun of it or throwing some harsh words about it, I do feel kind of shitty because it obviously wasnt my choice and I dont defend it. But they treat everyone who is circumcised instantly with judgment like we did this to ourselves and will defend the concept of it.
Instead of being sympathetic for people who didnt have a choice in the matter they just are harsh and judgmental about it.
Absolutely no reasonable person is blaming babies who didn’t have a choice.
But they treat everyone who is circumcised instantly with judgment
Not at all. We’re judging the parents of everyone who is circumcised.
It was 1974, my mom was single and 17. I’m sure she did whatever the Dr said without questioning.
Instead of being sympathetic for people who didnt have a choice in the matter they just are harsh and judgmental about it
No one is blaming the babies that have been mutilated. If you had (part of) your penis chopped off against your will, no one is holding it against you. I’m sorry your parents were brainwashed into mutilating you. No one blames you. Don’t subject your sons to it and no one here has a problem with you.
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??? Where’s the judgement at? All I see is commiseration.
casually sips their water while they read the comments unfold over a weewee meme I love the internet.
We’re truly Reddit now. This always causes a comment filled thread lol
I smell a “what you should and shouldnt be allowed to have your kids have operated on” debate
Female genital mutilation (FGM), is illegal because it causes numerous health complications, including death, with no benefits whatsoever.
I think that male circumcision is a choice adults should make for themselves. It’s not something that should be forced on kids or babies.
I’m not convinced I want law enforcement to police parents, who want male circumcision performed on their children, when the risks, benefits, and costs are all minimal if performed by a doctor. If a parent really wants to get the procedure performed on their child, then it’s better for the child that they have access to a doctor.
What’s being referenced in the meme is know as Metzitzah B’peh (Direct Oral Suctioning).
This comes with obvious health risks
Having a circumcision done in this manner negates any of the minimal benefits of getting a circumcision done. The only reason to have it done this way is to fulfill a religious rite of passage and since this method can harm the child I don’t see why it should be allowed.
Maybe we could properly fund our public schools and ensure people can get informed about this topic in Sex Ed, so they’re less likely to want this done to their children.
