How can anyone defend this?
Well, you see, their enemies are brown.
With fascist ideas
What’s a Nukhba?
The israeli term for Palestinian since october.
Originally it meant elite Hamas forces which participated in the attack. But israel just calls every Palestinian they kidnap or kill a 'Nukhba fighter". Easy way to justify any war crime. Everything is Hamas.
Seems the difference between an Isreali prisoner and a Hamas hostage is literally just the amount of paperwork generated.
If they were such elite Hamas soldiers, they wouldn’t release 50% of them back into civilian populations.
If they run, they are Hamas. If they don’t run, they are well trained Hamas.
😬
members of the military directed pepper spray at the military police who came to detain the soldiers.
Holy shit! It’s one thing when fascist politicians and their other brainwashed supporters resist justice, but when soldiers attack soldiers, “potential civil war” isn’t even hyperbole anymore!
In a country where almost all 18-21 year olds are in the army, you will have shit like that
Swiss here
No you don’t
You need to rival people up by starting a mass genocide first. No one wants to have a war in Switzerland anyway, it’s too hilly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderbund_War
An outcropping of the 30 Years War that ended with Swiss federalization. Helps when you have sharp political divides (in that case, Protestants killing Catholics) and young people driven to pick sides.
Israel is, similarly, experiencing sharp internal religious division between Reform Zionists and Orthodox branches.
Hey, I actually did a dissertation on that, so I am fairly informed to talk about this topic!
So few words, yet so many corrections.
- Not an outcrop of the 30 years war, a consequence of the 1830 french revolution.
- has nothing to do with protestants killing catholics. Was a war between progressive democratic unitarian forces wanting a democratic, united switzerland and conservative oligarchic federalists wanting independent Cantons. The killing of Leu was just the spark that ignited the war. It is really important that you understand that this was NOT a religious conflict but instead a political one. I can explain you why it wasn’t a religious war in more detail in a seperate comment, but I’ll leave it at that for now.
- Not sure how that applies here at all. The soldiers did exactly what they were ordered to do by their corresponding politicians. No soldier behaved in a way that wasn’t expected of him, Whereas here Soldiers defied their respective authority, which is what we are discussing.
and famously, this underlines my point about conscription fostering unity, the Tagsatzung always said that the soldiers of the Sonderbund were “eusi Brüedere” (our brothers), refused to use explosive ammo etc. (I could go on and on: Duffour refused to launch a surprise attack that would have been 100% successful to instead gamble and give them the opportunity to surrender because they didn’t want to hurt their brothers. It went that far that radicals said he cared more about the lives of the Sonderbund than about the lives of the Tagsatzung)
All in all, less than 100 people died during this 3-week war and the country united again very quickly after it was over.
Regarding Israel: Like I said, I am from switzerland. I don’t really know much on Israeli powerstruggles. All I know is: In Israel there are two groups of people.
- Religious Zealots that came there because of religion
- Jews that had to flee because of their religion and found refuge in Israel. Fleeing from their bad past in Germany but also because they were being exiled by all the Arab Countries. Group 1 tends to support Nettanyahu, Group 2 tends not to. Although Group 2 also started electing him after a series of terror-attacks on Israel.
And now before some asshole comes in: I do know a bit more about Israeli politics, but not more about its powerstruggles.
Got anything more recent than 1847?
Nothing so dramatic as an outright civil war. But there’s definitely a rising tide of youth violence which is reflected in an increasingly popular Swiss nationalist party.
Several shop windows and a shop door were broken, while officers dispersed youths who threw paving stones and a Molotov cocktail at them, police said. They detained six people ages 15 to 17 — three girls and three boys, with Portuguese, Somali, Bosnian, Swiss, Georgian and Serbian citizenship — and a 24-year-old Swiss man.
This is in direct response to clashes between Swiss officials and migrant communities. Disparities between religious groups (in this case Christians and Muslims) are sparking more conflicts across the country.
It’s almost like universal conscription is a bad idea that negatively affects people!
Swiss here - no it isn’t
I’d even argue that it is a reason why switzerland is such a stable country.
I am lying in a ditch next to a Person that has the absolute opposite of my political Ideas and job and… you get the Idea
But instead of seeing them as political opponents or whatever, I am lying in a ditch in the strongest rain. That welds together and fosters unity.
Yeah, it’s easy to advocate for conscription in an alpine country that’s famously neutral and hasn’t been known to commit atrocities unrelated to banking.
I’ve participated in various activities with people who don’t share my beliefs and always will and nobody had to force me to go larping in bad weather or murder and torture civilians to accomplish that.
Besides, as far as fostering unity goes, there ARE limits.
I guess I could hang with a right-libertarian as long as we don’t discuss politics and their behavior isn’t as awful as their politics. We couldn’t be close friends, but we could probably hang out. Hell, I probably do already without knowing it.
I don’t want to have anything to do with murderers, torturers and fascists, though, no matter what. Forced conscription would take my choice in that matter from me in most countries.
And people wonder why society is becoming more toxic
A swiss advocating for universal conscription is rich. Is that really something you want? You want to see the US military expanded by orders of magnitude? China? India and Pakistan? You think that ends well for the world, and doesn’t just provoke more armed conflict and more death? Forced conscription is just another form of violence from the ruling class to control the regular people. It’s absolutely insane to say that it would be a net good for society, or even to say that all political ideals should be tolerated. Why should I tolerate someone that advocates for the extermination of people like me, or anyone, for that matter? I can respect their rights, but I cannot respect their ideas.
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It getting more militarized probably has something to do with it.
On the other hand - who can resist free labor?
Fascists famously can’t, so it’s very much in character for the regime.
If you don’t support the Israeli army raping people you are antisemite
important s/ because people don’t even know anymore
Nobody unironically says that
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Netenyahu himself defended the actions of the imprisoned soldiers, saying anything can be done to detainees without restrictions because they are “terrorists”.
You’re derailing.
Where does he say that is antisemitic to oppose it?
Where does he say that is antisemitic to oppose it?
On the floor of Congress just last week.
Where is that video of the Israeli politician saying anything is okay since their enemy are animals?
Edit: oh wait, it is posted below in comic form
ohhh they do do
I was puzzled when first reading that lol
I think the only remotely sane person in the room was the one at the end who shouted “there are things you don’t do”. Albeit they’re all advocating for genocide, so none of them are respectable.
In the past Israel got away with everything by simply denying all allegations. That one politician realized they need to keep up the facade. The rest of them do not believe they have to hide their crimes anymore. Now they say out loud what they have meant the past eighty years.
The rest of them do not believe they have to hide their crimes anymore.
The problem is that they might be right. They’re effectively just wanting to accelerate the genocide and land taking until they’ve taken absolutely everything, before public pressure mounts up enough in, mostly america as their cash cow, to shut them down. They have the green light pretty much until the election, since everyone’s scared that a major change to the status quo will alienate massive amounts of support for their own base and guarantee an election loss, something that’s really only true for republicans I think, since a large part of that voter base is evangelical christian zionist. So they’re basically just trying to score as many points as possible before the timer runs out, and deal with whatever comes up afterwards, if anything even does.
They’re taking advantage of america’s domestic political turmoil and instability, basically, which doesn’t seem to show any signs of stopping for me, in terms of larger driving economic factors, unless we maybe get big sweeping FDR style reforms from kamala, which I’m not really thinking will be the case. Which for them makes a slight amount of sense, since they currently are basically just a vassal, a colony, of america, and produce little to export iirc outside of our military industrial complex, and as america collapses further and further, they’re going to need to establish a more sustainable base for themselves with their priority obviously being to maintain as much power as possible. which means that they can’t become a peaceful country or seek to play nice with their neighbors, which might not work anyways since their country is basically built on blood, same as america.
It seems on the surface like it’s just some short term strategy for them, but it’s only a short term strategy insofar as fascism itself is a short term strategy, and is a political philosophy incapable of actually having long term thoughts. But assuming their own political philosophy, all of what they’re doing makes sense. Which is precisely why a denial by the US right now and an increase in pressure would be so effective at curtailing them, if only we had someone with the cajohnes and political power to step up and do so.
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Justice Minister Yariv Levin said he was “shocked to see harsh pictures of soldiers being arrested”, according to Haaretz.
Khaled Mahajna, a lawyer with the Commission of Detainees and Ex-Detainees Affairs, shared the abuse recounted by two Palestinian detainees. One of them, a journalist, described witnessing rapes of detainees from Gaza inside the Sde Teiman facility, which has been compared to Guantanamo prison.
Another detainee was stripped naked, electrocuted and subjected to sexual abuse, Mahajna said.
“One Palestinian inmate died with a ruptured spleen and broken ribs after being beaten by Israeli prison guards. Another met an excruciating end because a chronic condition went untreated. A third screamed for help for hours before dying,” the newspaper said.
Stop being so harsh guys, jeez! I’m guessing they wouldn’t be shocked to see “harsh” pictures of abused Palestinians.
Update: Rape rioters won.
it becomes the first nation on earth to avoid civil war by allowing its military to rape prisoners
If this is true, it is only because usually the rapists got their way before enough people heard about it for it to become a civil war. Soldiers threatening mutiny unless they were allowed to rape people is a pretty common phenomenon in war.
Incidents like this almost certainly took place during the US American occupation of Okinawa, there just weren’t smartphones to relay the information to the general public, other soldiers, and the government so they could take positions. Maybe the prisoners will be tried at a later date, like the US did with some rapists in the US armed forces.
Do that many people in Israel really support this?
I guess Lemmy doesn’t have a big enough Israeli community to answer that, but I have a hard time picturing an analogue for this in other countries.
I would think they detest the act, but they would argue it wasn’t rape because legally only a citizen can be raped and that the victims were traumatized repeatedly weren’t citizens.
And they will be angry at you for making them think about it.
They spent years dehumanizing palestinians. They probably don’t see them as human anymore, let alone citizens
Yes, and it’s cultural
As the conversation in the Knesset I’ve linked below proves, it’s not a fringe opinion in israel.
Israeli here.
There is enough bad blood between us and the Palestinians for many people to approve the rape, and after 7.10 they feel confident enough to vocally support it. At least - the mob on the street and in social media. The more subtle right-wingers (as you may have guessed - this became a partisan thing) don’t condone the rape itself - but they have a few "but"s:
- They say that the soldiers are heroes that operate in harsh conditions, and we should be more forgiving toward such “venting”.
- They say that we should be more skeptic toward the testimonies of the released Palestinians prisoners, and should not start investigations based on their complains.
- They say that the arrest of the soldiers could have been done in a more peaceful and gentle way. (personal opinion - this argument is the only one that has some merit to it. Doesn’t justify the rampage though)
- The rampage against the arrest is a legitimate democratic protest, and the establishment is only handling it with extreme prejudice because it’s a right-wing thing.
Abu Ghraib comes to mind. War does horrific things to people’s minds.
Abu Ghraib
Did US citizens really support it though?
I feel like a lot of US warcrimes are done with the public being ignorant of them, while what’s remarkable to me is that so many people in Israel seem to support it.
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I’d call that a purge
Progress
“oust”?
Well if the military is in political power, I think “ousting them” by government ministers is called “taking back the country from a military junta” or smth.
Ok, just to answer this propaganda piece for future readers: Israel is now going through a faschist overtake. Israel’s faschist government’s actions are being objected by most Israelis, most past Israely politician 's from past MP’s to past PM’s. Most Israeli elites and most people involved in homeland security. There are active protests against the government and people are being arrested for it. Hope Democracy will win, you may continue the propanda now
The amount of protesters against the government is a tiny minority. Most of them do not even care about Palestinians but want the hostages back and their economy out of shambles.
Israel is an Apartheid not a democracy. The ICJ has recently ruled so.
I’ve heard worse excuses for a civil war…
Insane that this is real. 25 years ago I was riding a public bus where the driver said the USA should turn the region into an ash tray because there is no saving it. We all thought he was fucking nuts, but damn look at this shit. It’s hard to believe.
Your comment is like advocating for 9/11 . But far more extreme because it would be like Aghanistan was the party invading America for 75 years straight and Afghans getting mad Americans don’t roll over and die.
How did the Israelites break the Covenant the first time again?
