I mean, Trump is also defending genocide too though…
Trump being worse deosn’t mean we can’t criticize Biden right now as the sitting president. I have been very supportive of the need to vote for Biden over Trump, but the Democrats need to stop doubling down on denying the atrocities in Gaza already.
Like they aren’t even using nuance or anything at this point. Threateninng the ICC is absolutely ridiculous.
This is unilaterally discrediting our country on the world stage. Trump was bad enough, but we could tell the world over half the county opposed him, and that he lost the popular vote.
This guy won the popular vote, and he’s out there supporting genocide. What a fucking embarrassment to humanity these “leaders” are. Fuck them both.
Obligatory yes, I will be voting for Biden again to fend off Trump. I’ll like it even less than I did last time, though.
You are absolutely not obligated to say who you will be voting for.
If anything you’ve undercut your ‘fuck them both’ by following it with ‘but of course I will be supporting THIS ONE SPECIFICALLY’.
Do what you want at the voting booth but don’t undercut your own message by announcing your hand.
Might I add, you will also undercut the concerted effort to supress DNC turn out. Just like every other election remember the ground rules; be cagey; be indirect; accuse people of moral failings; and never ever compromise or adjust your position.
the ground rules; be cagey; be indirect; accuse people of moral failings; and never ever compromise or adjust your position.
Yes those are the rules of being a politician (gotem)
Why is it always the risk is suppressing VOTER behavior, and never a risk of intentionally suppressing the politician’s genocidal desire? If it’s a covert strategy to suppress voter turnout to raise the expectations of the voters, how does any protest ever effect change?
Me more than anyone. To this day I can’t create a reddit account. I just know, come November I want another shot of changing things peacefully. Do understand the power of the US military. Stopping Christo-fascism depends on stopping Trump from grabbing the wheel. If the DNC did their own Jan 6 before Trump was inaugurated I’d applauding it because I know, that was our last chance.
Buddy, our country is not so great on the world stage. You honestly think we can sink lower?
We’ve been down this road so many times and it’s always a kick in the pants when we get hung up on it again and again. To properly take a moral stance you need to gain momentum before the primaries. Biden has not been shy about his stance on Isreal and bibi has been chasing this car like a dog on crack.
Buddy, our country is not so great on the world stage. You honestly think we can sink lower?
Oh, absolutely.
We’re talking world stage. Trump wins, we will just learn what everyone else already knows.
Oh, I’m talking about the world stage too. The US remains popular in much of Subsaharan Africa and East Asia (minus China and NK, natch), and moderately popular in Asia outside of MENA, with mixed views in Latin America. Our popularity dropped in all but three countries during Trump’s term, if memory serves - Pakistan, Israel, and Russia.
you’re joking right
First things first.
Criticizing Biden is fine, and everyone should, for the first three years and six months.
Also, if it wasn’t clear, Biden is super pissed off at Bibi for all his shit. But once trump is defeated we’ll all dogpile on. (Agree dissing ICC is vr bad as well fwiw)
Until then, there is not much difference between “not voting bc genoside” / “grr biden genocide democrats” and https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/09/16/1035851/facebook-troll-farms-report-us-2020-election/
I can only think people either are very aware of it (because it’s exactly right) or not aware of it at all, possibly their first time eligible to vote.
But once trump is defeated we’ll all dogpile on.
So one of the other things that is very frustrating is always being told that we just need to wait until after the next election to criticize anything. Our election cycles never seem to end.
Yeah man life is really fuckin frustrating. Welcome to earf.
That’s kind of how ‘self rule’ works. You’re supposed to pay attention to politics.
People not voting is how we got in this mess in the first place.
Why do you think the GOP’s final defense is always “both sides do it?”
You absolutely should not be waiting until the next election cycle. You should be voicing your opinion, voting in off-cycle and local elections, and voting for the least harmful option in every election, including the presidential election. It’s a huge machine and voting once every 4 years for the pre-packaged candidate isn’t an effective strategy if you actually want things to change.
Vote for people that make things better in your community, city, county, state, and then think about federal elections. Displacing the trove of do-nothings or detrimental actors in the smaller elections will change sentiment in the parties and will change the candidates they put through in the primaries… but it will take years for that to happen.
Either that or revolution… but that’s going to be a whole lot worse for everyone for a few decades, best case scenario.
That’s the problem. Most of the far left idealists don’t give a shit between elections. This happens every cycle. And every cycle they never learn.
You and me both. Reddit literally browser finger printed my device and banned me in 2023 because I wouldn’t stop raising the flag on Biden. Now here we are and I want to do the whole told you so shit but I know more is at stake here than any other election I’ve lived through.
Bibi may lose this election for Biden, and spiral the world downward. This will only strengthen the ties the US has with Israel, however. Trump would absolutely throw a ton of weight behind them, and perhaps even involve the US directly in the genocide.
Bibi doesn’t give a shit about Biden, and Biden is showing an astonishing amount of weakness by not standing up to him. I’m fucking embarrassed for him, and the entire democratic party.
If the only possible outcome is a strengthening of relations with a genocidal colonial project then the American democratic experiment has been dead for a long time
Agreed. If the Bushes hadn’t fucked us up so much in the middle east already we’d have maybe at least one or two more options, but right-wing assholes like GDubz and Bibi ruin everything.
Bull, to the fucking shit. Genocide isn’t just something you can fucking put off. Unless you don’t really care about the genocide. Seems you’re more upset at the optics. And let’s also mention that Biden is not any more angry at the genocide than you seem to be. All his moves are token and theater and even that was only bought with mass protests and plunging confidence numbers.
People are being genocided ‘TODAY’
Seems you’re more upset at the optics.
I’m more upset that in roughly twenty weeks’ time there is a critical, no-shit, very real existential threat to the actual democratic system that underpins this entire country, which as it happens supports much of the rest of the world, and a bunch of opportunistic yahoos would happily ignore it to bitch about one of the most progressive presidents we’ve had in forty years about an entirely different country’s genocide whose policies by the by is supported by that same existential motherfucking threat he’s fighting! For goddamned fuck’s SAKE what the hell is wrong with you.
The ‘biden genicide’ crowd is absolutely performing the russian trolls’ jobs admirably. And seem to be proud of it.
Also, if it wasn’t clear, Biden is super pissed off at Bibi for all his shit.
It really fucking isn’t. At all. He recently went full genocide denier on Bibi’s behalf.
Democrats have no choice but to condemn the ICC and deny the genocide is happening because for some completely unknown reason the electorate has been lead to believe Israel is a good, moral state actor with absolutely no ill-intent and has never done anything wrong that was unjustified.
Now if they ever lie to me about Israel and I find out about it…
Every time Bibi claims that the IDF is the most moral army in the world I roll my eyes.
This is the reasonable take.
Undermining the ICC is tradition for the USA. There’s plenty of people waiting in line to get US soldiers, officers and politicians denounced at the ICC the day they’re capable of prosecuting US citizens.
I don’t think anyone is denying the atrocities. Or at least none that I’ve seen-
But what I AM seeing is a lot of people that understand the nuance in the situation, and trying to explain that not voting is going to get Trump. I also see people coming back to challenge this in bad faith knowing it’s been explained to them many times over.
But we’re not allowed to call these people what they are. So we have to play along with it and pretend it’s all legitimate.
The only reason you feel you have to pretend that it’s legitimate is because it’s true on face-value: democrats have chosen a losing position and are going to lose because of it. Rather than pledging fealty before we need to it’s far more important to work to get democrats to ammend their policy
Wishing people would ignore the issue and hold their nose isn’t a strategy to keep Trump out, it’s denial
I don’t think anyone is denying the atrocities.
“Contrary to allegations against Israel made by the International Court of Justice, what’s happening is not genocide.” - Joe Biden.
Jesus fucking Christ man. Read for the topic, now for what you want it to mean…
No one was talking about Biden. We’re clearly talking about how the far left accuses anyone that is still voting as supporting genocide.
Goalposts can teleport, I see.
Yes, but Republican voters pretty much ALWAYS vote, and they vote R down the whole ticket. A large portion of people who vote for Democrats only show up to vote if there is someone they can get excited about. Establishment Dems should consider this a law of the universe; it simply is the way it is. Instead of continuously trying to bully these people into showing up to vote (which has the opposite effect) maybe they should start asking what would get these people excited to vote for Joe. And then get Joe to do those things.
They act like everyone owes them a vote. They don’t. They are asking for something from the left, they need to start negotiating in good faith and expect to have to give something in return. Doing anything less than whatever it takes to get people to vote for Joe should be considered them trying to lose and get Trump elected again.
Democrats fall in love.
Republicans fall in line.
I think the die-hard Trump cultists are genuinely in love with him, though.
And yet Democratic leadership keeps operating under the assumption that they can order Democrats to fall in line.
I have a question, seriously: why are we looking to the President - the Chief Executive Officer - to define our policy? Isn’t he supposed to only implement the policies that have been enacted by Congress? Despite how Rs tried to portray Obama, and how Trump would act if given half a chance, the role of President isn’t identical to that of King - just how much leeway does he even have here? When tRump tried to insert himself in the opposite manner way back in the day, we impeached him - the President can propose but not define policy, right?
On that note, he did try to halt funding to Israel. Republicans in Congress overruled him. Ofc the reality is far more complex than what I am portraying here, b/c while he must enact existing policies, again he also should propose new ones too… which he isn’t doing much of. But how could we even tell the difference between Biden attempting to “work within the (existing) system”, set forth by our behind-the-scenes overlords and Congress + Supreme Court (heavy sidenote: with its current make-up, that Trump put into place), vs. him not really caring that much about the issue at all? Or really, at the end of the day, is there even a functional difference between them?
I don’t know. I truly don’t know. All I know is that while Biden may not be as liberal as people would have hoped, tRump is actively anti-liberal. And those are our two choices. :-( If we want better, perhaps we need to put forth some effort to make it happen. Like step up and actually run for office - and then dodge all the literal death threats + attempts that would result from conservatives for doing so. Otherwise, we get whatever they offer to us - they meaning those who will actually act rather than simply talk. Which remember, Biden is one of them, and he even has already made it to the short-list of the only two candidates who matter, which isn’t nothing!
He also called the ICC warrant against Israeli leaders outrageous and is stonewalling every attempt by the UN to intervene against Israel.
I don’t think he gets a pass on this
Thanks, that’s helpful.:-)
He may still be trying to work the issue from the inside, but indeed there’s a line there, somewhere.
We still only get the two choices though:-(.
He gets to balance the power of Congress. He can refuse to enforce their bullshit. But more importantly he’s the leader of the Democratic party. He has massive influence on the direction the party takes, and can put pressure on members who get out of line.
I think most people are done with people who try to “work within the system set forth by our behind the scenes over lords”… We want someone who’s going to call them on that crap constantly and fight against it with every move they make. Biden is clearly not doing that.
I actually got heavily involved with politics after Bernie. Including running for office in a very red district where I had no chance of winning (just happened to be where I was living). Turns out, the establishment would rather reject anyone left of them and lose to Republicans, than to move an inch to the left and anger their masters
He can refuse to enforce their bullshit.
Can he though? Well anyway, he definitely could do more, no question about that.
What bothers me is this entitled thinking, like “we deserve better candidates” - okay, yeah, obviously, but we won’t get those until we make them. AOC, Bernie, there actually are several who are good, but apparently for some (whatever) reason they aren’t “viable”? Hence why Biden is there, instead of one of them.
(And you even ran - damn that’s impressive! To be absolutely clear, I am not calling you one of these “entitled thinkers”, b/c you actually stood up and tried to DO SOMETHING about it, first-hand - kudos!)
Biden offers the good that can be done, rather than what should be - to use the Batman phrase, the politician that America needs, rather than the one it deserves… or whatever?
There is also that phrase, attributed to Otto von Bismarck, that “Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable — the art of the next best.” Put another way, the whole thing is a matter of pragmatism, instead of idealism.
And in every other situation, Biden has been the pragmatist. Gas prices, unionization of railway workers, inflation, etc. So I wondered if he’s doing something similar here too, even if it looks like 10-D chess to us, and based on his other past successes (that the media refuses to highlight, b/c they are “boring”), I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.
But my knowledge on this matter, especially lately, is shaky, so I could definitely be wrong there - perhaps this issue truly is the dividing line. I need to stop talking about that until I read up on the matter some more.
Though one thing that won’t ever change is that in the next upcoming election, we still only get the two choices though - Biden vs. Trump:-(. It’s like: imagine a robber steals your wallet, and offers you either the cash or your ID cards back (apparently the credit cards aren’t on the table for negotiation), but what they want in return is for you to say “please” - what do you do? Take one, or the other, or just walk away and leave both behind? Fighting the US government does not seem an effective option. We can cry about it, maybe go away and train for decades (as Batman did:-P) with the thought of perhaps getting revenge, but in that moment, our choices are limited. As I understand it, that is pragmatism.
Unfortunately when faced with genocidal fascism, pragmatism looks an awful lot like appeasement… And after 40 years of appeasing the oligarchy while they slowly take away our rights, health, and wealth, I think people are almost ready to fight. Maybe not physically… But in any way they can.
Which brings us to the fact that there are 3 choices in the upcoming election… Trump, Biden, stay home (or 3rd party, but that’s basically the same as staying home unfortunately)… If Dems and Biden really wanted to get people off the couch and in to vote they’d be figuring out what it takes and doing it… Instead they’re just following their already shown to fail bullying strategy… It’s really irritating to see them seemingly willfully losing to Trump rather than go against their corporate masters… Again
The reason Trump is so popular is because he’s a protest vote. At least in the delusional minds of the maga crowd. He is certainly not a part of the oligarchy controlling the establishment… He’s his own oligarchy, and a dangerous one too… But his followers are very dumb and very brainwashed. All they see is that he’s a way to fight against the establishment. The Dems needed to put up a protest candidate of their own. Utterly reject the establishment/oligarchy, and embrace the protest… Instead they once again doubled down on the most establishment candidate they could find.
I think people are almost ready to fight
Not in a useful way though. Conservatives fought, and therefore won the overturning of Roe v. Wade - they put in decades of effort to achieve that, and therefore did. They stood in solidarity, prior to Trump, and now the whole party is sliding QUICKLY and EXTREMELY Right-wards, to once again stand in solidarity at that new point.
In contrast, liberals tend to eat their own - case in point, look at what we all are doing to Biden right now (me too just to a lesser degree than some others).
And I am not even saying that is “wrong” - that is simply the nature of the game when talking about “correctness”. e.g., 1 + 1 = 2, but 1.9 and 2.1 don’t “quite” cut it, nor even 1.99 or 2.01, despite being so very, very close. Or let’s use an even more hyperbolic example to illustrate: suppose I ask a liberal what the answer is to the question of “what is 1+1?”, and the Democrats step in to say that “the answer is +1,000” (while ofc pocketing the other $998.00, b/c of corruption). That’s way off… but the answer that conservatives give is to kill your dog and fuck your mom, and then risk her life too b/c she’s not allowed to have an abortion even despite the rape (and then the Republicans pocket not only $998.00 but $1,999,999.00, just b/c they can). So which is “better”? Are there alternatives? Is the answer given by the Democrats more “correct”, despite being so very, VERY wrong? TLDR on this point: they are both wrong, but not equally so.
If Dems and Biden really wanted to get people off the couch and in to vote they’d be figuring out what it takes and doing it…
Yup.
Instead they once again doubled down on the most establishment candidate they could find.
Yup.
The rich people - like HRC - are so disconnected from modern life, that they cannot conceive of what it is like to be a Millennial or a Gen-Z person, who looks forward to not just “intern first, then real job”, but “intern forever, b/c that’s just all there is these days, stable job=never, ability to own a home=never (or is it never? either way it certainly looks that way now and shows no signs of improving… literally ever, plus Social Security + Medicare are drying up and with that money have been already stolen from us, will literally never, ever, EVER be returned…)”. And HRC’s response to ALL of that was, in short: “Life is good, let’s keep it that way, shall we?:-P PokeMon-go-to-the-polls, woot (please believe that I’m just like you - one of the [insert your predefined categorization here] - and btw did you know I carry hot sauce in my purse at all times?)”.
On the other hand, the Gaza situation is just the icing on the cake: regardless of the actual genocide going on there, it won’t fix our economy. The latter involves terribly boring steps, many of which Biden seems to be taking? But the media won’t report them, and I wouldn’t understand them myself anyway so… we are back to the “Just trust me bro - I got this! (also I’m totally not a senile old man-puppet propped up on crack to give speeches while the real work is done behind-the-scenes, which we cannot talk about for uh… reasons, but it’ll be good, this time, I promise, just vote for me and you’ll see what we have planned later!)”
Also, are we even arguing anymore? :-P I think we agree on pretty much everything. Oh I remember, there’s one more detail got us started: the difference between what I am saying vs. you is that we are not being offered a primary with which to pick a different approach. So when you say things like “The Dems needed to…” and “If Dems and Biden really wanted to…” and “Instead they’re just… It’s really irritating to”, my question is: now what? So you don’t like it - I don’t either - but what are we going to do about it? Yeah, that’s what I thought - I have no clue either.:-( But I’ve been wrong before - e.g. I thought no way would Trump win - so now I am just trying to strain my eyes open as wide as I can make them, to learn from whatever happens.
I appreciate your thoughtful response.
Sadly the Republican’s “grassroots” orgs get tons of funding from the oligarchy, while any grassroots orgs on the left get none… Without funding I don’t know that there’s much we can do. Personally I worked my ass off in progressive politics for a few years after Bernie, but unfortunately eventually had to move on to something that can actually pay. Now I’ve moved as far away from the South as I could, bought a gun and ammo, and a couple weeks worth of emergency food. I don’t see any way out of this without it getting really bad. End stage capitalism is rough.
Besides the fact that each new generation is more progressive than the last one, honestly my only hope is that as AI starts taking their jobs, and the oligarchy keeps squeezing more and more out of an ever shrinking upper middle class, that eventually they’ll start joining us and voting progressive. Like right now 50%ish of people own nothing… What about when they’ve squeezed every drop out of 75%? 90%? At what point do the people in their golden bubbles start realizing they’ve been getting screwed all along too? Hopefully it’s before millions die in the streets.
That would work if voters are reasonable but they’re not, there’s been something every single time - and yes it’s always ‘but this time it’s serious’
Could you explain what you mean a bit more?
Every election there is a reason that the left candidate isn’t left enough for the purists - every single time.
Yes… I bet if they’d put up someone who’s actually on the left, it would be a different story. Like, I don’t love everything about Bernie (because he’s not as "left"as I’d like), but I would have gladly voted for him against Trump. Millions of young people would have gotten excited to go vote for him too.
Every election the Dems fight tooth and nail to stop actual progressives from being allowed into the general. They put up their centrists instead. So of course they aren’t “left” enough.
Is this ‘bOtH sIdEs’? or ‘wHaTaBoUt TrUmP’?
The way I interpreted their comment is that people often mention Biden supports genocide and some people may assume Trump doesn’t - so it’s worth mentioning that of course Trump supports genocide too (on top of all the other horrible shit he supports contributing to why he shouldn’t be in power).
I would be amazed if anyone on lemmy.world was at all unaware of trump’s encouragement of genocide.
I am amazed that anyone on lemmy.world could have possibly thought people on lemmy were unaware of Trump’s encouragement of genocide.
I am not surprised that it seems to be the only concern.
If I’ve learned anything about people through the past decade of politics its that you can never ever assume anything about people being intelligent in any group.
If I’ve learned anything about political discourse it’s that you have to assume that some level of mutual understanding is possible for communication to be worthwhile, and for everything to not devolve into back and forth trolling. So, while you can’t assume intelligence, sure, you also kind of have to.
I would be amazed if anyone on lemmy.world was at all unaware of trump’s encouragement of genocide.
Plenty seem to think there’s no difference between the two, so they’re either unaware or fascists.
I actually think the the problem is that most here think there is a difference between Biden supporting genocide and Trump supporting genocide.
“There’s literally no difference between the position of Trump and Biden on the Palestinian genocide” - A Very Serious Archomrade
“There’s literally a big difference between supporting a genocide but not wanting to and supporting a genocide and wanting to” - A very serious pugjesus.
So given it an election year you could agree that comparing both potential future presidents is a healthy option.
Guess your argument is self-defeating, I’m gonna go for a hike 🤷🌲🌲
In an election year I would agree that agitating complacent liberals into caring about warcrimes is a healthy option
And promising to do one here
Shitty justifications for Biden’s support for genocide I’ve actually seen on lemmy:
In third place: That’s the way we’ve always done it.
In second: We’re worried that the people who chanted “Jews will not replace us” will call us antisemitic.
And now in first place: Trump did it so that makes it ok.
Trump wants to be dictator and is talking about a third term and you dipshits still keep on with your divisive nonsense meant to push people into political apathy. Lol this site’s political discourse has been completely hijacked by bad-faith, blame Dems at all costs bullshit.
To those not acting in bad faith, you should vote Biden because at least you know he will peacefully step down when his term is up. Trump will try more J6 style violence to stay in power. Could you imagine 20 years of Trump, or if he appointed one of his kids president?
Pull your head out of your ass and vote Biden.
Sounds like Biden and the Dems should be trying pretty hard to get young people and progressives to show up this year… Maybe calling them “dipshits” isn’t an effective tactic? In fact, I would say this is the kind of thing that turns people off from giving a shit… Are you TRYING to get Trump elected? How about instead of bullying the voters you’re trying to convince to do what you want them to do, you could try putting that pressure on the Dems to start doing what it takes to get people to show up and vote
What I find amusing is that the primary season hasn’t even officially ended yet. The convention is in August. There are numerous states that haven’t even cast a ballot for Biden. And we’re already absolutely inundated with “You have to vote for him or you’re a traitor to your nation!” hyperbole.
You’d think people could at least save their most hysterical outcries until the general election season has officially started. But no. Everyone on Lemmy is expected to bend the knee right now, at this very instant, because otherwise Trump might become President… six months early?
There’s simply no room in the political calendar for any kind of criticism of the sitting President.
Biden hasn’t been great. He dragged his feet on issues he campaigned on (e.g., student debt relief), he sounds eve older than he is, and perhaps most gallingly, he didn’t unequivocally renounce the genocide in Gaza immediately. Inflation sucks and wages aren’t high enough for most to survive, let alone thrive. I can name a dozen progressives off the top of my head I’d rather have as president.
First past the post voting and the two-party system give us little chance at the national level for meaningful fast change.
But have you seen the shit Trump has promised he will do as president? We all learned an important lesson from the first Trump presidency: take him seriously, not literally. I shouldn’t need to list the things Trump has promised to do, but here’s a highlight reel:
- Enthusiastically support Israel’s “invasion” of Gaza
- Waste billions on a useless border wall
- Deploy the military domestically to “fight crime”, “coincidentally” in blue states
- Slash federal education spending and let states handle their own education
- Repeal background checks, reopen the gun show loophole, roll back federal laws against gun trafficking, and make it easier for kids under 21 to get guns
- Undo Title IX trans rights
And he won’t stand in the way of any of the Project2025 insanity the GOP wants to pursue.
So, on the left, you have an old man who has maybe made things a little better for some too slowly while ignoring a genocide. On the right, you have an old man who endorses that same genocide, promises to make the country an actively worse place for many, and who has empirically proven he will encourage and endorse insurrection and treason to stay in power.
The best play for the future is two-pronged:
- For the medium/far future: push for electoral reform like IRV/ranked choice voting at the local/state level (to get people used to it), endorse third-party candidates, run for local office, donate time/money to causes that matter to you.
- For the near term, to allow the first bullet point to take root and thrive: Don’t let Trump get elected, which means, unfortunately, voting for Biden.
Democrats can’t win without the progressive caucus, and even in the most conservative part of a largely leftist social media site and the best thing that people who claim to be left are saying is ‘Biden was a shit president and I fucking hate having to vote for him’
Does anyone here really think Biden can rely on progressives right now? Honestly, maybe everyone here would say they’d do it anyway, but who here actually thinks a majority of leftists would show up for that POS?
If Biden is steadfast on this position on Isreal he loses. There’s no amount of street-corner-preaching about the end of days that will convince leftists to vote for Biden.
I’m a progressive, volunteered for Bernie’s campaigns. I don’t remember electing you to speak for me, maybe you don’t have your finger so squarely on the pulse of every single progressive.
I plan to vote for Biden, am I excited about it, no. Is the Democratic Party going to put up anyone else, no. Would me holding back my vote matter, no.
There is no world where “not voting for the least bad option” equals anything other than the most bad option winning. You can be upset that that’s the word you happen to find yourself in, no one asked me if having to pick between the two jackboots of the capital class was how we should arrange things either.
One thing I haven’t heard is what’s the alternative. You have my full attention, what would you actually concretely hope to have happen. Let’s say you could convince a large number of Democratic Party voters to follow your lead, what would you have them do?
Perhaps watching the Democratic Party leadership gut the chances of Sanders twice to put up boring ass garbage candidates has hardened my heart. Would you have them sit out the primary convention, great Biden still wins because of super delegates. Would you have them protest and hold back their votes in November, great trump wins. Is there some other thing that’s supposed to happen? What’s the plan?
I am very happy for your politics, honestly I am. I wish more people were as involved as that.
Bidens approval is at 38% right now. That is the second lowest approval rating of any incumbent president in their third term in modern history, second only to carter. The lowest third year approval rating where the incumbent won reelection was Obama with 45%. Biden can afford to lose 3% of his popular vote, assuming 2020 turnout and ignoring the electoral vote(spoiler, that’s a worse situation)
If you’d like to ignore reality and argue that Biden hasn’t lost any fraction of his support from this conflict, just because you personally could concede that issue, then feel free to completely ignore me. Keep reassuring everyone those numbers aren’t real and pray that this doesn’t sink him.
I personally think the only path to victory is Biden about facing in Isreal. That’s what I’d do if I was organizing: do everything in my power to push Biden to see reason. I can’t campaign on “yea Biden is materially supporting a genocide, but he’s not irredeemable” to progressives that are camping on campuses for weeks to months over it. There is nothing I could do to convince those people to vote.
Spend your time how you want but I think it’s far more sensible to try and sway Biden than it is to convince an entire cohort to vote for a candidate that’s complicit in genocide.
Ok, but concretely, how do you want to do that? This meme?
I believe you, you think that Biden’s support for Israel will ensure his defeat. What do you think could get him to change his position, I highly doubt he’s browsing lemmy.
I get your frustration and I read some of your other comments and I don’t really disagree with you. The thing is, the people disagreeing with you in this thread agree with the deeper concern. I’m concerned that Biden’s support for Israel will make him lose too. I don’t believe there is anything the voting public can do to change that support. I believe that support has been bought and paid for by the capitalists that want that support for whatever awful reason they have, and that our shambling “plutocracy in democracy clothing” means we won’t be able to change that.
So I look at the line you are pushing and I think, what are the likely outcomes of this effort.
- Biden retracting his support for Israel, no.
- Some people on lemmy getting disenchanted and sitting home, maybe.
- The horse race obsessed media running endless stories about Biden losing the left and the youth vote, which while true, act as a flywheel suppressing more voters, absolutely
And I just can’t figure out the point. Maybe you are more optimistic than me, maybe you still believe that shouting into the social media zone could swell a grassroots rebellion, get Biden to change his stance, and secure his victory. I just have a hard time believing it.
Now if you told me you were going to start a super pac and throw 10s of millions of dollars at the campaign but only if they move on Israel, yea, that could work. Shitposting here isn’t doing anything but demoralizing pragmatic leftists that understand what a shitty fucking dumpster fire of a system we have and are also worried Biden’s unwavering support for Israel is going to fuck us all over. And I struggle to understand who that helps
You’re right that I left a crucial element out of my admittedly simplistic two step process. We should pressure Biden to be better and to stop supporting the genocide in Gaza.
I consider myself to be solidly left, maybe not full-on progressive but supportive of many progressive policies. And I think Biden has been a good president when you consider the context he’s been given. I don’t have time to write it all out now, but if I did, I’d be glad to argue that Biden had been a good (not great) president. I think the millions who have had their student debt cancelled, bought OTC birth control, got off unemployment and into a job would agree.
Granted, Biden’s campaign hasn’t done a good job, groceries are still too damned expensive, and he hasn’t stopped the genocide in Gaza. But, save a violent nationwide revolution, the 2024 presidential ballot is Biden vs. Trump. And, on the issue of the genocide, Trump has demonstrated he’d be an enthusiastic supporter of Israel, much more than Biden.
I am starting to believe that the OP type of people aren’t actually Biden supporters or democrats but paid for Republicans/operatives who have market researched the most effective way to reduce voter turnout. Kind of like how cigarette companies were forced to make anti smoking ads and went with the least effective or most counter-effective campaigns they could go with.
Or maybe I know whats driving voter apathy is because I’m in the fucking group
It’s like the closer I get to neddling exactly what should get you to act in your own self interest, the faster you dismiss it as covert meddling
If you just assume I’m a troll then you will never see the train that is barreling down the track toward you.
Democrats lose without the progressive vote.
#DEMOCRATS DO NOT HAVE THE PROGRESSIVE VOTE RIGHT NOW
#OR MAYBE YES THEY DO, YOU CERTAINLY DONT REPRESENT MY PROGRESSIVE VOTE WITH YOUR ARROGANT ASSUMPTIONS
[the above is just making an important distinction, not really yelling though the screen]
Reality includes nuance, recognition, and rationale.
How many threads and comments are you posting about local, state, and federal politics that are even more important than President?
What Congressional Representatives are you mad at about genocide support?
Who should we be voting for/against in primaries other than just Biden? What state lawmakers are supporting genocide and need to be engaged over it?
Where’s the rest of your outrage for the little things that matter more than the optical illusion that is the Presidential race?
Or, alternatively, just recognize that you are now part of a distraction meant to disrupt American politics, and your cognitive dissonance prevents you from acknowledging certain realities, one of which is that your echo chamber is just an echo chamber. We all have to learn that eventually, or we will reap what we sow. The last time we really experienced a ‘reap what you sow’ in a Presidential election was in 2000 with Bush v. Gore. We got Bush, we got 9/11, then we got Iraq and Afghanistan wars that threw real people and families, in this country AND more so in the countries we invaded, into a murder meat grinder as a way to feed a military complex rather than feeding justice for the 9/11 dead. That is OUR modern legacy that must never be allowed to resurge. I’d argue we got lucky with Trump’s first term in terms of a ‘reap what you sow’ scenario, he was far more of an incompetent greedy clown than a corruption evil genius than expected, but he seems to have come around to leaning in towards a much more focused corrupt evil clown this time around that will coincide with much worse consequences and outcomes for all of us if his circus act succeeds.
Not everyone is on the same page even among progressives, and here, you are seeming like another side of the same Trumpie coin by demanding the litmus test for
conservativesProgressives be thissleepy corrupt demonic racistgenocide Joe line-in-the-sand narrative that is blaringly, obviously, propagandized as commentary that will be reinforced to divide and dilute voters that recognize the real world danger of Trump and his rhetoric.If genocide is what you are truly concerned about, wouldn’t a better focus of your internet-commenter ire and time be demanding change directly at Netanyahu and Israel’s government? They already had plenty of munitions and monetary support from the US for decades of suppression of the Palestinians’ self determination. Where were you 5 years ago on a seemingly ongoing genocide of Palestinians? 10 years ago? 15, 20, 25, 30, 40, 50 years ago when Israel was, based on a long history of not even just ‘liberalized/progressive’ media reports, accused of committing a genocide against Palestinians?
Biden is a half measure, but he’s the only half way acceptable option we have based on the system we live in. We aren’t going to have a civil war over this, and we can’t change the Constitution before November. Yelling at the sky does not at all fix anything. Offer solutions, and if there is one that is a better option than voting for Biden to prevent far more corruption from Trump, let us know now.
I HOPE I’M WRONG
But it’s just dumb to assume his rock-bottom approval is a mirage. And for its worth, I’d much rather be spending time thinking about literally any other race, but every fucking thread here is filled with self-congratulating affirmation that I can see literally anything but
If genocide is what you are truly concerned about, wouldn’t a better focus of your internet-commenter ire and time be demanding change directly at Netanyahu and Israel’s government?
I don’t see any Israeli propogandists here, but if I did, i’d feel about as confident about changing their mind as I do about changing a trump supporter’s mind. I happen to know progressives are upset; it’s not hard, all I have to do is point to the genocidal shit he’s doing. Everybody here agrees he needs to stop and yet laughably every criticism is couched in seven layers of ‘but i’m voting for that fucker anyway’ as if it’s too strong of a threat to let that possibility COOK HIS ASS a little to get him to change, even if it’s the obvious implication anyway. You all seem to be in a deep, deep pit of denial about this, and if I do nothing else but toss cold water on you for the next 5 months then i’ll be happy.
We’re 5 months out, we haven’t even held the convention yet. If we get to octoboer and he’s still a fucking POS, i’ll start couching my screaming with those addition affirmations, too, if it makes you feel better.
But fuck you if you want me to stop screaming for him to do better, and fuck you for pretending to care yourself.
So, ‘get in line’ with your view, or ‘fuck you’, is your message.
Progressives, including myself, are upset at Biden, but we’re not monolithic, and many of us are even reasonable grownups that don’t let our rage dictate how we respond to situations with vitriol and insults, or with demands that everyone else conform to our individuals views or be dismissed. I get it on some level, you’re obviously younger, I had the fervor of inexperienced passion with politics in my younger years as well. I actively try not to project my own shortcomings onto others to convince myself I’m right when I feel attacked. You’re losing the plot and only seeing red.
-
Who should we be voting for/against in primaries other than just Biden?
-
How many threads and comments are you posting about local, state, and federal politics that are even more important than President?
-
What Congressional Representatives are you mad at about genocide support?
-
What state lawmakers are supporting genocide and need to be engaged over it?
-
Where’s the rest of your outrage for the little things that matter more than the optical illusion that is the Presidential race?
Biden is the middle ground Republican-light compromise coward and always has been, none of your screaming is going to make him stop talking from both sides of his mouth. If anything, he’s had a few releases that were surprisingly harsher on Israel than some of us ever expected him to.
You are laser focused on the wrong-goddamn shit - looking for instant gratification by trying to make the story of the plight of Palestinians about Biden and a singular American election, when it’s about so much more and could have stronger impacts if it was focused on actionable solutions rather than reactions to public statements.
-
Mmmmm… I thought this was directed towards the op of this comment thread… Not the original post you made. Good meme in my opinion
That’d explain the split vote count
Sorry for the stray if it was, but frankly the odds do not point in that direction
Yeah I know… The Dems probably are dumb enough to try the bullying tactic again, even though they have to know it lost them the election in 2016… Or maybe they have their heads so far up their own asses that they genuinely don’t get it… Either way, it’s like they’re deliberately trying to alienate the very people who they need to show up and vote for them
Other left-wing spaces are so much better, but I shouldn’t be surprised because .world de-federated with everyone to their left.
Everyone that disagrees with me is a paid troll!
I’ve kinda been thinking the same thing
That’s because you and @theilverpig@lemmy.world have been trained since 2016 to see any dissent as foreign opposition to the point that you can’t even see legitimate dissent anymore.
I was talking about the op of this comment thread… Not the original post… Bullying people to vote for Biden is a proven losing strategy. Dems and the shills they pay to troll on social media absolutely have to know this, so why would they continue to do what they know will drive people away and cause then to lose? The theory being, maybe they aren’t Dems, maybe they’re Rs pretending to be Dems… Personally, having worked closely with establishment Dems in the past, I honestly think they are dumb enough to try the bullying tactic again even though it lost them the election in 2016
Ah, I totally misread your comment. My apologies.
Everyone that disagrees with me is a paid troll!
Yeah, seems right. These people seem like shills trying to discourage people from voting against the Republicans, that really seems to be all there is to it. They make any argument they can to discourage people from participating at all.
The simplest way to “stop Trump” is for Biden to stop supporting Israel’s genocide and yet the Democratic Party sock puppets never ever demand that Biden stops supporting Israel’s genocide and instead it’s everybody else who is to blame for the increasing likelihood that Trump won’t get stopped even while Biden doesn’t shift an inch on his position.
It’s quite the “curious” take that Biden shouldn’t have to stop supporting genocide even to “stop Trump” and instead it’s everybody else who has a moral obligation to vote for a shamelessly committed genocide supporter to “stop Trump”.
The whole thing has a heavy heavy stink of “the boss is always right and you have to support the boss or else” of both Dictatorships and Criminal Organisations.
I think you are very unfair in how you paint the picture. Biden shouldn’t support genocide, obviously. But realistically, you have to choose between 2 genocide supporters. And “stopping trump” is a good reason to vote for 1 genocide supporter over the other. Obviously you don’t like the genocide supporters and you shouldn’t be forced to choose one but you are living in a (practically) 2 party system and both run a genocide supporter.
That you’re fixated on convincing millions to swallow their principles and vote Biden to "Stop Trump"TM shows that you clearly haven’t understand my points or haven’t actually pondered on them rationally:
When a single man refuses to shift his position to “Stop Trump” and demands that to achive that goal millions of people shift their positions instead, that’s what’s very unfair - it’s saying that “my will is more important than the will of millions”.
That’s the kind of shit you expect in Absolutist Dictatorships or Monarchies with rulers who believe their rule is by Divine Mandate (hence they know better than everybody else), not from a President who supposedly represents his voters.
He can’t even claim that his position represents a majority of his votes because polls show most Democract are against the actions of Israel in Gaza - in this he’s actually going against the desires of most of those who elected him in the expectation that a sufficiently large fraction of them don’t care enough on this subject to change their votes or are forced by circumstance (what you and others who think like you are pushing) to vote for him when they don’t want him as President.
That’s not Democracy, it’s Petty Dictatorship and it’s certainly not “very unfair” to point out when elected representatives are acting like they’re dictators.
It’s also possible to look at this situation and see you as the one who is fixated. Just explain simply what you think happens in November when you refuse to participate in the (albeit shitty) democratic process. We’ll wait.
If that version of the future includes some accelerationist fantasy where things get so bad here – for people of color, LGBTQ, lower and middle class, human rights, wage gap, regulatory capture, &c&c – that we all have some great awakening and there is a violent uprising… Then I’m sorry to tell you that you’re a terrorist.
People here aren’t arguing for you to like Biden; most of us don’t either. We’re asking for you to live in reality.
Being “very unfair” to expect that the President represents those who elected him by changing his position to match that of those who elected him is not just broken Democracy, it’s the full-on acceptance that the President of the United States of America shouldn’t even care to represent his voters (otherwise it would not be “very unfair” to demand him to change his position to align with that of his voters), which is the kind of shit from countries like Russia were the vote is pure theatre and citizens have no power.
I mean, it’s fair if “in my country the vote is not a real election of a representative of voters” is what you accept as reality, but that’s like saying in Russia that “well, Putin will do whatever he wants either way so people most vote for him”, which not really a moral argument to push on anybody who is unwilling to endorse by voting that rigged system with a meaningless vote.
Whilst that’s a perfectly valid choice for you fully accept that you don’t live in an actual Democracy, that doesn’t really give you the moral highground to convice others that they too must fully accept it.
What Biden is doing here isn’t great, no one is arguing that. If you replaced him with trump right now trump would be orders of magnitude worse. If trump gets back into the white house, our country, lives, and future will be orders of magnitude worse. That’s a fact. Our stupid ass first-past-the-post voting system means you have two choices, Biden, or worse-in-every-single-measurement-unless-youre-a-millionaire-and-you-likely-arent Trump. Choose wisely. Your future depends on it. It’s really not a hard choice.
Get politically active and push for change, but don’t help bat shit insane MAGA put a king into the white house by extending your apathy to voting day. Please.
It’s our duty to be the last line of defense to keep a rapist racketeering felony indicted man who believes he is above the law from leading our country again. That is much more important than our quibbles with Biden.
Didn’t answer the question. What happens in November/January?
I happen to agree with you, what we have is not an actual democracy. But the two options for change are working within the system, or tearing down the system. Apathy for the system brings no change. The single most misguided idea of your little apathy movement is believing that stamping your feet in frustration is actually DOING anything.
Imagine what happens if millions of people choose not to turn out for the second least popular president in a lifetime? Why are you pretending that’s our choice?
Biden can only loose about 3% of his electorate, assuming exactly the same turnout as 2020 and generalizing to the general vote count (electoral vote is much worse). How many people do you think he’s lost by supporting the most public and brazen genocide of our lifetime?
You’re expecting all 80million people to all agree to the same comprimise you’re proposing, and we’re trying to tell you that’s not gonna happen
What happens in November/January is that America will elect as President either a confirmed Sociopath with Fascist and Authoritarian tendencies or a confirmed Narcissist with Fascist and Authoritarian tendencies: America is getting screwed either way, the difference is in the speed of the screwing and whether you’re getting smooth talk or dirty talk with the screwing.
Tactically, this battle is lost and has been lost for months now. The vote now only has any power to push for change at a Strategic level: what your vote for or not now can influence, is whether in subsequent elections the Democrat Party will genuinelly fear defeat and hence field a presidential candidate who actually represents his electors or if they feel confident that “our guy is slightly less evil” propaganda always works to secure their Left flank (if it works even with a Democrat candidate who is openly and activelly a supporter of a far-right ideology committing Genocide, they are bound to conclude it always works) in which case they will move even more to the Right and field an almost-Trump candidate.
Keep voting for lesser evil no matter what and the Democrat Party will keep giving you increasingly evil options.
Funny you think people actually have any options. It is fascist vs fascist with both representing private interests over public interests. It’s not democracy at all. It’s a sham like usual.
Didn’t answer the question. What happens in November/January?
this is some real crybaby shit. let us know when you’re ready to face reality and recognize that the way you think it should be is rarely the way it actually is.
If they’re wasn’t blame to be directed at democrats we wouldn’t be directing it at them
To democrats in government, pull your heads out of your asses And stop supporting the genocide
I couldn’t make you people any more apathetic if I tried, Jesus
I’m just curious. Were you old enough to vote in 2016?
Not looking to judge or call you out or anything, I’m just curious because you sound a lot like me when they tried to shove Hilary down our throats. She was shit, and I understand how frustrating it is when the only party that hasn’t gone bat shit crazy does whatever the hell it wants because they know there’s no possible way they could piss us off enough to vote Republican.
That being said. I didn’t vote for Hilary. I went third party because the Head Dems needed to learn that they can’t just decide who the nominee will be and then put their finger on the scale during the primary.
Obviously, they did not learn that lesson, and since then the GOP has doubled down on fascism and insanity.
If I could go back, I’d have happily voted for Hilary. If Trump had never won, we’d have a more trustworthy Supreme Court, and clowns like MTG and Boebert wouldn’t be acting the fool for attention.
And that’s why I ask if you were involved in the 2016 election, because we’ve already done this, and it bit us in the ass. That’s why we aren’t trying to talk people out of voting for Biden. If we don’t unify behind this chucklefuck, we may never get a chance to elect someone we actually want again.
For the record, Israel can fuck right off with the shit they are doing, but that’s a conflict that’s been going on my whole life, and expecting Joe Biden, or any one person, to fly in and bring peace to the other side of the world just isn’t plausible.
We’re on the same side here, but if we’re divided on Biden, Trump wins again, and NONE of us want that.
I’m old enough to have voted in the last 4 elections, i remember 2016 plenty. Do you know what I remember about it though? Hillary, CNN, MSNBC, NPR, and all the major news outlets, all the major online publications being shared on all the major social media platforms proudly and confidently parading around poll numbers showing Hillary would blow trump out of the fucking water. I don’t remember hardly any of her campaign positions, because at every fucking stop she was mocking and deriding trump and his supporters. She was even mocking her own constituents by deriding Bernie.
She was as surprised as everyone else that the electorate she needed to show up chose not to come out for her, and if you ask literally any non-voter or protest voter from that election, they would tell you the same thing: ‘the establishment doesn’t give a fuck about my interests’.
I voted for hillary (and i’m embarrassed by it). I don’t think voting third party would have changed anything about that outcome. What I wish i had done was spend every goddamn minute of every goddamn day leading up to election day SCREAMING at everyone that would listen to take the concerns of the electorate more seriously. I cannot stress enough how absolutely idiotic it is to be wasting any time shitting on the interests and concerns of the voters in 2024 by chanting “vote for Biden or else”. It is the same fucking thing hillary did, and BIDEN WILL LOSE.
If anyone here is even remotely concerned about Biden losing in 2024, they should be running for the mountains and amplifying what voters are actually concerned about, and pray to fucking god Biden has the compassion to listen. If it means personally threatening to withhold your vote in order to make that possibility ring true, then absolutely do it. I don’t care if you think that’ll make someone apathetic, if any one of us reliable democratic voters is even considering not voting for him, I would bet it on my life that millions of others are already feeling the same thing.
The level of arrogance displayed in the memes here about ‘if you don’t vote you’ll cause a dictatorship’ is absolutely staggering (personally calling out @PugJesus@lemmy.world here) The only people those memes are for are people who will have their reality shattered when their worst fear comes true after november.
No offense on my guess of your age, I like to make guesses about people based on unrelated things, and usually I just like to know if I was right or not.
Again, I got no beef with you, we agree for the most important parts here, and as is a major issue with the Dem party, nobody can agree on how to make things better.
I think it’s interesting that I rebelled against Clinton and wished I hadn’t, and now want others to not make that mistake, and you supported the “At least it’s not Trump” candidate and feel the same way.
I would really like the DNC to listen to voters before lobbyists, and I don’t know if there’s a way for them to get that message, but I hope they do. So, I’ll meet you in the middle. You keep spreading the message, but just to be safe, I’m still voting Biden.
Good luck out there!
I don’t remember hardly any of her campaign positions
Yeah, that tracks.
Pokemon Go to the polls!
And that’s about it.
I’m not sure if you’re aware but the third party vote in 2016 slanted more towards voters who typically vote Republican.
Also: unless you lived in a swing state in a swing district your third party vote probably didn’t cost Hilary anything in the Electoral College.
And I doubt you were the reason her campaign chose to ignore said swing districts in swing states. Don’t feel guilty and don’t carry the water of their mistakes.
These are just accelerationists who already hate ‘the west’.
It doesn’t matter what the occurrences around the world are, or who is at bat. They will always find something to blast the Internet with during election year in hopes to push the worst candidate up in the polls.
It’s obvious and hella funny considering their mental gymnastics.
Lemmy as a platform was designed for this exact purpose; spread misinformation and cloud actual conversations with image macros of pigs shitting on its own balls and shitposts.
Yeah, you’re pretty spot on here mate!
Most sane thing I’ve read in a while. Hard to make progress starting out from even worse situation. Plus people are dumb. The genocide is terrible, but geopolitics are not as simple as just swinging the nuts around.
Found the genocide apologist. Sleep well knowing you are going to vote pro-genocide?
Well it’s the other way round… Posts shaming people who threaten to not vote pop up every other day. If the shamers could hold their guns till say October, while the rest of us trynto pressure policymakers to, y’know, stop an ongoing genocide
ITT: you’re a Trump supporter if you call genocide genocide.
There’s a lot of people who plan on voting Biden, myself included, who effectively feel held hostage at this point. “Don’t criticize support for genocide or Trump is going to destroy the country and probably kill a lot of people” is probably one of the most frustrating political discourses I’ve ever experienced. The folks making this argument are right in that Trump winning is bad for everyone, including the Palestinians, and I can empathize with the pragmatism there. That said, that argument rings hollowly for me, because it comes across as so utterly cynical. It reads (to me) as though genocide registers at the same level of urgency as dysfunction at the DMV. They’re sorry for the inconvenience (and probably they really are sorry that it’s happening) but non-combatants getting starved, shot, drone striked, and buried under rubble by our allies is just not something that’s convenient to deal with right now. I wonder if they think the Palestinians find it very convenient.
I mean its barely about what people here think.
Broadly, Biden supporting this genocide in the way that he has is costing him the election. Acknowledging this doesn’t mean you support Trump. Arguing that if you don’t support Biden in-spite of this position is headspinning, and some posters here (@PugJesus@lemmy.world ) are doing the work of trying to separate the left from Democrats in this regard.
The problem is that beating/ guilting/ shaming voters doesn’t work. It literally never has. Its been demonstrated, over and over again to be a counterproductive strategy.
So what if you’ve been convinced that its OK for Biden do a little genocide? The whole god-damned point is that other people don’t believe the same thing you do, and if you actually want to stop Trump you really only have two options. You can either try to convince voters that a little genocide is acceptable if its coming from Democrats, or you can try and convince Democrats that no amount of genocide is acceptable, regardless of the ally committing it.
Its far more sensible to bring your criticisms to the Democrats in showing that you wont vote for them if they don’t shift their positions on Gaza, than it is to engage in a demonstrable failure of an approach to rhetoric to try and shame people into voting for a only slightly less supportive of genocide candidate.
You can move a politician. Every election cycle politicians move positions. I mean fucking hell, look how far the left was able to drag Biden last election cycle! He basically went from a Republican slate of policy positions to something actually on the left. He didn’t do this his own; he did this to get elected because that’s what the voters wanted. Biden can be moved on this, but blaming voters, especially when you know they are on the right side of the issue, is setting 2024 up for disaster.
I’m just amazed at the amount they punch left then don’t understand why it’s always an issue.
Maybe I’ve gotten too old and cynical to be surprised by it.
Its been the theme of the modern Democratic party to work diligently to cut off your nose to spite your face.
I mean look at the recent jungle primary in California. Adam Schiffs campaign spent millions supporting Republicans in that primary to avoid having to compete against Katie Porter.
It often seems like Democrats have nothing but contempt for their voters. Its not clear to me that they care. Its only a very very few number of Democrats who are actually responsive to their voters.
I hate how dirty they did Katie. But not surprised considering she’d actually hold people to account.
(and of course you got banned from the community but pug is allowed to constantly attack people)
There were 24 hours of bliss about a week ago when pugjesus was temp banned
Just amazed they banned someone for trolling while pug gets to shit and spam everywhere in this community
Frankly I’m a bit alarmed i haven’t been banned myself. I can imagine the mod logs are full of complaints at this point
The problem is that beating/ guilting/shaming voters doesn’t work.
You forgot to add gaslighting.
or you can try and convince Democrats that no amount of genocide is acceptable, regardless of the ally committing it.
The problem is that there is absolutely no way of “forcing” the (so-called) “Democratic” party on this through “formal” means - if you vote for them and they win, they will simply know that they can get you to rubber-stamp their complicity in genocide. If you vote for them and they lose or you punish them by not voting and they lose, they still won’t care - they know that four years of Trump will force you back to the ballots to vote for them in four years’ time anyway. In fact, I suspect they are betting on the latter scenario.
You’re being pushed up against a wall - a wall that wouldn’t be there if you actually lived in a democratic society.
Everyone should block PugJesus for a better Lemmy experience.
PugJesus has been a constant wedge between Leftists and Liberals. They only serve to be a terminally online agitator, and whenever it’s pointed out that their agitative propaganda only serves to confirm anti-leftist bias among Lemmy.world’s liberals and further ruins a broader leftist-liberal coalition, ironically making fewer people vote for Biden, they just mald and disengage.
When I asked what they truly believe, they believe themselves to be a leftist that doesn’t agree with Marx’s Dialectical Materialism.
They reserve only the harshest criticism for actually existing Socialist movements, such as when they trashed the Black Panther Party, but fight tooth and nail for a nuanced view of Liberalism and Liberal movements against Leftists.
No leftist is pure enough, no liberal impure enough.
It truly makes me wonder if PugJesus has any actual firmly held beliefs or if they just act in reflex.
I’m gonna go touch some grass, i’ll pass my baton to you.
Gotchu.
Nobody thinks a little genocide is okay. Nobody is saying that at all. But it’s not a choice between a little genocide and no genocide. It’s a difference between a little genocide and a LOT of genocide. When Trump gives his blessing to glassing Gaza with a nuke, will you tell the remnants of the civilians that are left that it’s fine because the Democrats will understand now that they should’ve been harder on Israel?
What is actually more important? Doing what’s best for the Palestinians from the options that actually exist, or punishing Democrats?
I’m not any happier than you are about the choices that we have, but wishful thinking doesn’t give us a third path. This isn’t a movie. To get a third option you’d have to convince at the very least a plurality of the population of the US to vote for another candidate that is gung-ho behind forcing Israel to stop (a proposition that isn’t guaranteed even if the US cuts off all support today, by the way). That’s a tall order, especially with how well it’s going convincing 100 or so people on a Lemmy thread.
Do people think nukes will really happen or is it hyperbole? Jared kushner wants to own beach front property in Gaza.
I mean, for me it’s hyperbole, but whether it’s a literal nuke or a completely unrestrained Israeli army outfitted with unlimited US weapons, the outcome for Palestinian refugees in Gaza isn’t much different.
W How is it costing him the election any polls to back this up?
The problem is that beating/ guilting/ shaming voters doesn’t work. It literally never has. Its been demonstrated, over and over again to be a counterproductive strategy.
Ah yes, the evidence of that being [checks notes] Hillary, a notoriously unpopular and uncharismatic politician, narrowly losing due to the electoral college.
I guess people in 2020 were just REALLY fired up about Biden, huh?
They were really fired up AGAINST Trump.
Its 4 years later.
In terms of the policy position that is going to decide this election, they have the same policy: Genocide for the people of Palestine.
You should stop being an apologist for genocide.
They were really fired up AGAINST Trump.
That sounds almost like guilt or shame at the prospect of letting Trump win.
In terms of the policy position that is going to decide this election
Fucking lmao
She didn’t lose narrowly because of the electoral college.
She lost massively because even knowing the rules of the election didn’t campaign at all in the Midwest swing States while receiving increasingly alarmed warnings from the local DNC members in those States.
Your response is like a loser going ‘I wouldn’t have lost if it wasn’t for the rules’ when everyone knew the rules in advance.
You can argue for getting rid of the electoral college and if be right there with you. But you don’t get to pretend it’s not a thing when trying to win before you get rid of it.
This is such a weird strawman
Nobody on Lemmy likes genocide, as far as I can tell. I saw somebody who was in favor of it a couple days ago, which makes 2 users I have ever seen.
So first a whole bunch of people got up and said, I’m never voting for Biden because he ruined the economy and fucked up on climate change and made marijuana illegal again and did family separation and caused Covid and also personally did a genocide and is super happy about the war in Gaza because it’s exactly what he wanted
Then a second whole bunch of people said hey every single one of those things except part of the last one isn’t true, also, Trump is worse on the genocide piece
And so now the first people are insisting that what the second people said was, “Don’t criticize support for genocide”. That wasn’t the point. The fact that a good bit of what the people in the first group are saying, is wrong, means they get people disagreeing with them, which always gets misrepresented as some lunatic pro-genocide silencing of criticism. But it’s pretty much never a message of “please stop criticizing my genocide guy otherwise Trump might win.”
If you want to express urgency about helping the Palestinians, please do so. Send messages to your congresspeople. Vote “uncommitted.” Go to a protest. Tell Biden he’ll only get your vote if he (X, Y, Z). Any of those things, or something else. Sounds great.
I think the thing you’re hearing is more “I want to end genocide just as much as you do, now let’s talk about how to do it, and also yes how to avoid one that’s 10 times worse that depending on how we go about it might be one of the possible outcomes.” I don’t see why that would be frustrating to hear. And I don’t think it’s at all the same as “please stop criticizing Biden that’s not allowed” or anything like that. Most of the threads on this topic have their most upvoted comment as “Jesus Christ I wish he wouldn’t do that” or something along those lines; this fiction where criticizing Biden for enabling this genocide is at all unpopular is not at all the reality.
I wonder if they think the Palestinians find it very convenient.
Actually, one of them weighed in on Lemmy on this exact narrative, where people are using his dead relatives to justify this one very particular political stance about being reluctant to vote for Joe Biden (and for some reason not to justify getting involved in some electoral or non-electoral way to actually help his relatives who are still alive). He wasn’t about it.
Is it a straw man, though? Just look at the post we’re in. OP, at face value, wants the democrats to win but thinks they’re bungling the odds by supporting genocide. There’s already multiple commenters accusing them of being Trump supporters, as well as at least one commenter I’ve seen so far suggesting that we can’t be critical about this now because the election is too important.
There’s already multiple commenters accusing them of being Trump supporters
Yes, because he framed his point in one particular emotionally resonant way that just maybe by pure coincidence tends to do more or less nothing at all for the Palestinians except hurt them, and by pure coincidence happens to feed Trump’s chances in the election.
The strawman I was specifically responding to was that commenter “you’re a Trump supporter if you call genocide genocide”. I’ve called it a genocide many many times; never got called a Trump supporter. I’ve said Biden is enabling it, said all the Palestinians will be dead by the time he works his way around to real consequences for Netanyahu at this rate, compared the Biden State Department to the Nazis, lots of stuff. I said we should contact our representatives and left some links (not that it did a fuckin thing.) Linked to a Ralph Nader interview where he talked about how to demand concessions in exchange for your vote, to put pressure on elected officials like Biden, particularly as it applies to this genocide. Never got called a Trump supporter.
You know what I didn’t do? Get all emotional about how I really don’t want to vote for Biden now, and suggest a particular framing for the issue that will help Trump, but won’t help the Palestinians. I suspect that if I started doing that, and did it consistently every day from a variety of different viewpoints and combined it with a bunch of other criticism of Biden that wasn’t true, then people might suspect I was a Trump supporter. But I don’t do that. Why? Because I’m not a Trump supporter.
Yes, because he framed his point in one particular emotionally resonant way that just maybe by pure coincidence tends to do more or less nothing at all for the Palestinians except hurt them, and by pure coincidence happens to feed Trump’s chances in the election.
I’ve seen so many tinfoil hat comments from you at this point that I’m sure you must be feeling lonely.
I’m not rooting for a trump presidency. I’m rooting for Biden to stop a genocide, and I believe 1000% Biden will lose on this issue alone if he doesn’t address it.
Will dropping his support for Isreal really get him voters? I’m not sure we can say that. He will loose support from zionists and believe it or not they are the ones that put him in office the first time. We knew back then.
The best and really only thing would to be stop the concerted effort to supress voter turn out. Then again the bad actors aren’t going to stop and the rubes will follow them into the pits of hell. So pretty much, fucked every which way. Enjoy your moral highground while we are all under a mountain of shit.
I have seen nothing but evidence that this fucks him
But also why shouldn’t it? It’s a contemptible thing for him to do (like at least don’t be public about it, that way voters can safely ignore it)
The best and really only thing would to be stop the concerted effort to supress voter turn out.
I could not disagree more, his approval is already the second lowest in modern history. I don’t know about you but I don’t know how to campaign around ‘yea, he’s supporting a genocide, BUT’. nor would I fucking want to! How much shit should I be expected to have to eat just so I can get voters to ignore possibly the most publicly grotesque international policy i’ve ever seen?
We tried ignoring voters in 2016. Sure let’s try that again, see if it works this time
They ignore voters every election.
The message isn’t vote this turd in it’s hey don’t be stupid and let christo-fascism take root.
Every additional issue Biden ignores he looses a portion of his base’s enthusiasm. Sure, some of these people would never vote for Biden for a bunch of reasons, but everyone has a limit to what they’re willing to concede on, and I have to say that supporting a genocidal project is a pretty big one.
It would be irresponsible if we weren’t sounding the alarms that he’s strayed too far away from his winning coalition. That’s not me being principled (even though it is), that’s me being pragmatic.
Everyone else who’s rallying a couple hundred users on lemmy to ignore that issue is covering their eyes to the oncoming train.
I’ve been on the receiving end of names such as “Genocide Lover” and man is that just exactly what I wish my Dad who went to get cigarettes and never came back would have called me before he left. I agree with you. People for some damned reason seem to be stuck.
The Genocide sucks balls.
Trump sucks balls.
Trump + Power = Genocide Ball Sucking on a whole new level
Biden sucks a bit less balls, though would suck far less if he stepped up and actually condemned the Genocide properly. Currently, Biden’s big balls are on fire.
Like, none of this situation is good. Most of it is malicious and evil on too many levels, and faaaar more complicated than the majority of us realize. At the end of the day we do have three significant immediate problems:
- Ukraine and Putin
- Gaza and the Genocide
- Trump and the GOP
We CAN focus on all of these and it doesn’t have to be to the exclusion, or support/lack-thereof, of the others. Problem is, every time you say “Shit’s bad and this Genocide is evil, vote Biden for the love of God.” Someone comes screaming in with a, “BIDEN?! YOU SUPPORT GENOCIDE?!” and you can’t get a sideways word in.
I think a lot of it is this weird parasocial thing where it’s like you have to “support” a politician to vote for them. With very rare exceptions I don’t “support” any US politician, like I’m friends with them. I just want to get as good an outcome as I can for me and the other people in the world, and I think that’ll come from a combination of choosing better outcomes within the system that’s presented, and working outside the system to try to change it to introduce as much actual democracy into it in the long run as is possible.
I personally think the alternative perspective is a weird one, where politicians and policies are monolithic and unmovable, and challenging them necessarily means damaging the entire system. I was always taught that the strength of democracy was its enabling of negotiation, but you’re suggesting that there’s no negotiation to be had at all.
I think proactively committing to voting for a morally abhorrent candidate (a candidate promoting a morally abhorrent position, if you prefer) is less than submissive, it’s actually giving up the only possible leverage you might have had in order to accept a reality that hasn’t happened yet.
It’s absolutely a choice you are making, and even if you’d feel better if that didn’t make you guilty of ‘supporting’ genocide, i think it’s kind of self-evident.
I think proactively committing to voting for a morally abhorrent candidate (a candidate promoting a morally abhorrent position, if you prefer) is less than submissive, it’s actually giving up the only possible leverage you might have had in order to accept a reality that hasn’t happened yet.
I talked about this - withholding your vote to put pressure on Biden and communicating to him effectively that that’s what you’re doing makes perfect sense to me. I linked to the Ralph Nader article where he talks about doing that.
If I thought Biden read Lemmy and would read my comments and react differently in Gaza, would I do my comments differently, so as to avoid taking the pressure off him that he’s currently feeling? Yeah, maybe. Probably. I don’t think that’s the reality, but if I thought that, I probably would do my comments differently.
I’m just saying how I look at the election. Unless Biden had some sort of mental break that made him start acting worse than Trump in terms of what he’ll do with power, I’m planning on voting for him. If I thought lying about that would create a positive impact in some way, then yeah, maybe I might. IDK. Maybe not. I definitely wouldn’t be as vocal about how ok a job he’s doing, yeah.
Proactively committing to not voting for preservation of American democracy and prevention of catastrophe around the world, because Netanyahu started a genocide and Biden hasn’t caused a revolution in American statecraft by opposing it for the first time in history, doesn’t make a ton of sense to me, though. Why is the genocide in Gaza a red line but preventing a genocide in Ukraine, or saving a million American lives from the next pandemic, or mitigating climate change (to whatever extent we even still can) moving the needle away from billions of lost lives in the not-too-distant future, why aren’t those red lines?
It’s absolutely a choice you are making, and even if you’d feel better if that didn’t make you guilty of ‘supporting’ genocide, i think it’s kind of self-evident.
It seems kind of weird to get all amped up about how great a job you’re doing at not supporting genocide, by doing something that endangers Palestinians specifically but also apparently makes you feel better. I think I linked somewhere to a comment from someone who claimed to be Palestinian American who actually specifically asked Americans not to do this (use his dead relatives as justification for their political stance which was going to endanger him much more along with many of his still living relatives). It’s on bestof if you didn’t see it.
If I thought Biden read Lemmy and would read my comments and react differently in Gaza, would I do my comments differently, so as to avoid taking the pressure off him that he’s currently feeling? Yeah, maybe. Probably. I don’t think that’s the reality, but if I thought that, I probably would do my comments differently.
I don’t think you realize how far reaching popular opinion can spread through social media. I don’t think Biden is reading, either, but if the sentiment that he’ll lose was more widespread, then I think that would absolutely put pressure on him. I also think the complacent stance can reach quite far, which is why it’s frustrating seeing people like pugjesus so militant about reinforcing it and why I think it’s frustrating to you to see me and others agitating action. (It wouldn’t make sense for you to be worried about bad actors otherwise)
Proactively committing to not voting for preservation of American democracy and prevention of catastrophe around the world, because Netanyahu started a genocide and Biden hasn’t caused a revolution in American statecraft by opposing it for the first time in history, doesn’t make a ton of sense to me, though
I’ll tell you what I read into this: American imperialist state action is so ingrained in the democratic party that it is inconceivable to you that they’d let it go, even in the face of a literal fascist taking control. And I think the people you’re talking to here, who’ve felt for a long time that America has been on the wrong side of geopolitical struggle for 80 years, find that to be the most damning part of your position.
It’s inconceivable to wish fascism onto the people of America and the world, but that the democratic party can sooner accept it than consider pulling back the American global apparatus is… well, I guess it makes it hard to root for them, doesn’t it?
It seems kind of weird to get all amped up about how great a job you’re doing at not supporting genocide, by doing something that endangers Palestinians specifically but also apparently makes you feel better
I think what you mean is that it’s convenient, but I obviously don’t see it that way. I think it would absolutely help the Palestinians for the US to stop obstructing justice against Israeli leaders, and I don’t accept the premise that their reality would somehow be worse than it already is if trump was egging Israel on. The UN is already poised to react against Israel, if they cross a lot more lines they’d risk expulsion (along with us). Who knows, but it’s not just about Palestinians, the US has abused its influence across the globe and setting the record straight about what the electorate will tolerate would undoubtedly help more countries down the line, if Biden accepts the critique.
Yours is probably the correct take, or near enough. The U.S., on a sociocultural level, tends to take sides. It’s nurtured into us. Sports is arguably the biggest reason, though throw in the news, social commentary, and a bit of high divorce rates, amongst other reasons, and you’ll have yourself a cake split down some middle. While far more complicated than this simple explanation, the reality is we are divided. This division makes it really difficult to want to agree with someone who doesn’t take your exact stance. Whatever reason justifies such firm footing on shaky ground is further falsely reinforced by those who exist just to rabble-rouse, 2024 Digital Digger Edition; “Our Words Harm”.
It’s become difficult to look at comments stuck in the social node of Biden=Bad or Bust in good faith, because they often don’t discuss and instead tend to yell.
Which really is sad, because we do need to come together.
I’ve been on the receiving end of names such as “Genocide Lover”
Tell the rest of that story.
So first a whole bunch of people got up and said, I’m never voting for Biden because he ruined the economy and fucked up on climate change and made marijuana illegal again and did family separation and caused Covid and also personally did a genocide and is super happy about the war in Gaza because it’s exactly what he wanted
For the record: this is a strawman. You know that saying about Republicans always accusing others of the things they’re guilty of themselves? I would suggest not following the Republican playbook.
I mean, I exaggerated for humor, but people did absolutely say:
- Biden ruined the economy
- Biden fucked up on climate change
- Biden betrayed us by not decriminalizing marijuana after he said he would
- “Separating families at the border” got worse under Biden
- Trump’s Covid policy was amenable to people steering him the right way whereas Biden cancelled a bunch of the safety things we needed
- Biden is the one doing the genocide
Aside from the genocide, the last few were so laughable that it’s easy to conclude I just made them up as a pure strawman, but yes I absolutely had people tell me the un-exaggerated version of them.
Would it be better if I spelled out exactly what were the literal things people told to me instead? Yeah maybe I shouldn’t “joke” in this way if I’m gonna be saying other people are using a strawman.
Sure, and other people also had very different criticisms of him than your list that aren’t as easy to dismiss. The strawman is you cherry-picking these to argue against in order to demonstrate some blanket point about people who don’t want to vote for Biden, when only one of these is the actual point of the conversation (and not in the hyperbolized way you presented it).
So yeah, I would 100% suggest not committing a logical fallacy while you’re criticizing others for committing that logical fallacy.
Nobody on Lemmy likes genocide, as far as I can tell
As someone who frequents worldnews from lemmy.world, a sizable amount of IDF apologists who do actually defend genocide show up every week, although they consistently get banned.
There’s also a bunch of wackos on Hexbear and Lemmygrad who will sneer with joy at the idea of Ukrainians getting displaced to never be able to return, although you have to dig in to find them.
Tell Biden he’ll only get your vote if he (X, Y, Z).
If you have to vote for him anyway this is an empty threat. And they know it.
Criticize all you want. I certainly do. But understand at the end of the day that as pathetically little as Biden is doing to help, he isn’t doing literally zero. Allowing Trump to win is objectively voting for MORE genocide, and in fact, the end of any potential for a Palestinian state in any form. None of this is secret - none of this is speculation. If people would take 15 minutes and read the ACTUAL Trump middle eastern peace plan that he ACTUALLY PUT FORTH when he was president, it’s pretty obvious he would allow MUCH MUCH worse than Biden without batting an eye.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_peace_plan
There is no room for argument on that. Is Biden bad for Palestinians and allowing genocide? Yes. Would allowing Trump to win be WORSE? Yes. You’re upset that angry wolves are eating someone, and you should be. But the solution is not replacing them with angry bears.
They literally just said they were voting for Biden. Why are you lecturing them? All you’re doing is demonstrating that Democrats don’t listen.
Okay, fair point, and I acknowledge it. I’m no saint and I get preachy. It’s a character flaw, and I apologize if I caused offense.
It’s not just a character flaw you have - it appears to be endemic to dem apologists in general.
Since you’re one of the first I’ve seen even acknowledge it, I would love to understand from you what kind of media diet or environment produces this blindness to critique. I suspect it comes from abject terror of conservatives & fascism and a sense of powerlessness to affect real change outside the narrow system given to you by voting, even though voting is also deeply disempowering.
Since you asked, I’ll answer.
My acknowledged character flaw is my preachiness about my position, particularly in a environment like a lemmy thread where we’re all shouting into a void. I do not, however, make apologies for my position.
I am not a dem apologist - I am a utilitarian. I would love to see both Biden and Trump out on their asses and a viable, functioning third party option. But that is one of a number of things that are not realistic right now. I look at the world right now and I don’t have the ability to look at the trolley problem we’ve been given, sit down, and refuse to make a decision because I believe it’s going to somehow punish the trolley for daring to give me a choice I don’t like. I have to choose whether to pull the lever.
The absolute reality of this election boils down to two logically consistent positions that make sense.
-
- The system is so utterly unsalvageable and without merit that I am willing to make any sacrifice to force a shock to the system that might be big enough to shatter it in the hopes that something better can emerge in the future.
-
- The best we can do is to minimize damage until an opportune time to push for greater change.
Both of these positions are logically consistent, and make total sense. I don’t happen to agree with the first one, but if that’s your jam? I understand it. But own it. The logically inconsistent position that drives me absolutely crazy is to claim that a Biden loss is somehow consistent with a moral crusade to protect Palestinian refugees. That’s absolutely insane and illogical to the point where it is at best based in ignorance and at worst reeks of intellectual dishonesty. If you are motivated primarily by the fate of Palestinians, a Biden victory or loss is not about Biden at all. If you are motivated primarily by number 1, and you want break the eggs to make the omelette, have the moral courage to be honest about it. I, for one, am not in that boat. I don’t have the ability to perform the fancy, nonsensical mental gymnastics necessary to sacrifice an entire culture of people on the altar of my ideological purity and then claim with a straight face that I’m somehow doing it for their benefit. I have to do the cold, calculating work of estimating how many people will ACTUALLY die and/or suffer as a result of the decisions I do or do not make, and then make an unpalatable choice that protects the things I find important because that’s just how life is. A series of sub-optimal choices that reflect the messy reality we live in.
I expect everyone to do the same, even if the things they find important aren’t the same things I do. But when someone claims to value the same things I do and ALSO make decisions that are against those interests by EVERY single sound and reasonable measure? I already dealt with that kind of nonsense when I used to get dragged to church.
As pointed out earlier, this person I responded to in this thread isn’t that person, and I do apologize for implying otherwise. But the person I’m talking about here DOES exist. That person is in this thread. And that person needs to hear this.
Okay, I don’t really want to debate the merits of the position. I could but I don’t think we’re too far apart on it. So the character flaw is the preachiness and I misunderstood that’s what you meant, but you still have said something very interesting that I want to understand. I really wanted to know about this:
As pointed out earlier, this person I responded to in this thread isn’t that person, and I do apologize for implying otherwise. But the person I’m talking about here DOES exist. That person is in this thread. And that person needs to hear this.
See, this is a mistake that people making pro-dem arguments - whether out of utilitarianism or some misguided sense of allegiance - keep running into. I have seen so many arguments that boil down to (and I’m not saying this is exactly what you did but it’s a general pattern):
A: Biden is screwing the pooch for XYZ clearly stated factual reasons.
B: You want Trump to win.
A: No, I think people should probably vote for Biden but he’s tanking it for XYZ clearly stated reasons.
B: Fuck you, MAGA/Ivan.
I was asking you about it because you are literally the first person out of dozens of these exchanges that I have ever seen admit to being wrong about this. I think that’s honestly admirable, and I was asking because I really want to understand if you have any insight as to where your misunderstanding came from.
If your answer is that it doesn’t matter because the person your argument is for is out there somewhere, then I think that’s a problem for reasons I can explain if you want to hear them. If you have another explanation I’m interested.
It seems to me we’re almost on the same page.
You’re right - my posts aren’t referring to a SPECIFIC person, but general statements targeted at a casual reader of the thread.
I think this is where most people’s overreaction comes from - being so passionate about the desired OUTCOME that they forget to actually be convincing about how to get there. Yes, there are a huge number of us that are not huge fans of many of Biden’s decisions, but voting for him anyway because of the limited number of choices we have. But there are clearly people out there who aren’t as inclined towards making those subtle distinctions, and it’s important that the discourse, as much as possible, makes clear to people that their vote need not be a declaration of undying love. It’s okay to say “Biden, but not happy about it.” It’s really important that those people see the whole view, particularly when there’s so much knee-jerk reaction towards both “YOU MUST SUPPORT HIM” and “YOU CAN’T SUPPORT HIM”.
That said, while of course it eases conscience to talk about how Biden has problems, helping someone who is gung-ho about supporting him to have doubts has almost no tangible benefits to the external reality we live in from the standpoint of the outcome I desire (I don’t post here to be neutral - of course I have a bias), and may actually have a negative impact. Helping someone who is on the fence understand that despite voting being essentially binary, there is a whole spectrum of valid ways to think about it, can lead someone to making a decision that can have a real impact on getting the outcome I see as best, so of course I want to counter the former with the latter.
-
I make the same comment in all these threads, but you don’t have to vote for Biden. I’m planning on voting psl this November and you can too.
Forgive me, but the only psl I know is Pumpkin Spice Latte. Care to explain?
Party for socialism and liberation. They’re running Claudia de la Cruz this go round.
As someone who voted 3rd party in 2016, I very much regret it. It was a wasted vote and helped Trump get in office. The very same thing can happen again. Don’t get me wrong, I hate that Biden is the candidate. I hated it in 2020 as well. The Democratic party is a joke when it comes to putting up candidates. Until we aren’t a two party system, we have to vote for the lesser of two evils with a plausible chance of winning. If not and Trump wins again, we will only move backwards again. It felt like we took two steps backwards and a half step forward.
How we can generate change is by starting at the local level. Ranked choice voting has already begun at many local level elections. We need to campaign for this and for candidates that can make that happen.
Do not fall for the idea that changing to some other method of voting will fix anything.
Plenty of European nations have all manner of goofy voting systems and parliamentary governments and they’re all still getting fascist parties and coalitions.
Even if we thanos-snapped ourselves into star or ranked choice or some other cheese eating surrender monkey voting style we’d still actually have to be not okay with our government sending 2000lb guided bombs to be dropped on hospitals.
That starts with not voting for Biden because a vote can only ever be seen as a show of support. There is no way to mark the little bubble that says “I’m only doing this to keep trump out of office” or the one labeled “wish it was anyone else”.
You can only show support with a vote and I urge you not to show support for Biden.
You should feel proud of your third party vote in 2016, I sure do. You can say a lot of bad things about trump, but he never laughed about having a nations leader sodomized to death with a knife on daytime tv.
I agree that there’s likely no ‘perfect’ system of government. Mostly because power corrupts most. But clearly the two party system is extremely dangerous so I still want a change to another method. Yes, ranked choice voting isn’t perfect but not trying to change/improve is giving up.
I do want to ask, it seems like you are fine with another Trump term. Do you not think fascism growth would be greater under his presidency? Do you think he won’t support the Israel government or worse, provide even more to them?
Our system of government forms a feedback loop with our social system. We can certainly change how we vote but without changing both the government and social system, modifications to our election process only change the interlink between the two. It’s clear from other extant nations dealing with fascist movements that a different interlink doesn’t fundamentally alter how both the government and social systems respond to material conditions.
It’s not giving up to recognize that a new transmission won’t fix a blown engine and stripped differential.
We might need a new transmission too, but it ain’t gettin us to pismo beach unless the rest is straightened out.
I’m not “fine” with another trump term, and I’m not “fine” with Bidens term or another one.
We are getting fascism. We have, right this very moment, got fascism.
We cannot fight fascism with gentler fascism or inclusive fascism or fascism with a welfare state, we can fight it with socialism, anarchism or communism.
To step away from the polemic for a little bit it’s interesting that you said we shouldn’t vote third party but instead should try to change the voting system. Here I am just asking people to do the easiest thing ever, mark a different box on a piece of paper, and the response is “no, before you do that simple, easy to accomplish thing you have to fundamentally alter how we choose officials!”
I don’t bring it up to make fun of you, because several other people have said that to me, but to ask what motivates that? I mean, do you think the only acceptable outcome for a political party is victory?
The time to vote against Biden was back in the primaries. We can try again during the next primary, but if we fuck around during the general, we’re going to find out how much worse a second Trump term will be.
Your vote for Biden is only a vote for Biden. It will never be a vote against trump. It will only ever signify support for Biden assistance and denial of a genocide.
The democrats don’t have a crystal ball, they can’t tell that you wish they would run someone else or that you feel forced to vote for their candidate despite his monstrous platform. They will only see support. They will only see what they can get away with.
The time to vote against Biden was back in the primaries.
Yeah. I remember centrists screaming that uncommitted votes in the primary were votes for Trump. The only thing that pleases a centrist is silence from critics.
I’m horrified by what’s going on in Gaza. It’s an atrocity that deserves maximum attention and intervention above pretty much any issue.
Biden is absolutely shitting the bed on this. But Trump isn’t gonna clean the sheets.
It’s not that genocide is a tertiary issue. It’s that both candidates will be complicit in the genocide, so it literally isn’t a factor when looking at the candidates.
If Biden doesn’t change course on this, he will lose.
In this comment: a bullshit-ass straw man
POASIWID
Watch Biden supporters lash out at communists and muslims if Biden fails to get reelected, rather than looking at the horrendous position the Democrats have taken.
deleted by creator
I deleted this comment because I realized I don’t actually wanna take part in an extremely tribal ethno-religious debate. I’ll just say the following things everyone should agree on:
- Any government anywhere that holds one ethnicity or religion above another is fundamentally wrong and oppressive
- Everyone who minds their own business has a right to be safe from violence
- Maximizing good things and minimizing bad things is good, obviously. But this also applies to voting.
That first point gets so lost it boggles my mind. “Isreal has a right to exist as a Jewish state” say our American leaders. I’m sorry, when did the American government, with the principle of seperation of church and state in its constitution, decide that we’re going to defend, I need cheer on, another country organizing its government and individual rights around who is subscribed to the right religion? Like da fuck, “X country has a right to exist as a Y religion state” is just entirely contrary to core American values.
But when politicians say it, when democrats say it, when Chuck Schumer says it, no journalist is like, hey so why are we supporting a country with a two tiered system of rights based on religion? It doesn’t even come up, it’s a given, it’s a table stakes position. I feel like a missed something in history class about how the US came to that default position. My best guess in the holocaust happened, so therefore jews in Isreal get a free pass on running rough shod over the rights of the religious minority in their territory indefinitely?
To be clear, nothing against Jewish people or the Jewish religion or any of that. What ever wild and wacky god you want to worship or set of books you want to put your faith in, as long as your not hurting anyone else, I don’t give a shit. We’re all trying to cope with being born on this blue marble without explanation or instruction in our own way, so if religion does something for you, who am I to yuck your yum.
I’m just not a fan of a government organized around religion at the expense of the religious minority population. And I don’t think it’s consistent with American value to be cheering that on or asserting that some particular religion has a “right” to their own state. And I certainly don’t think when that country rounds up their religious minority, puts walls around them, controls everything that goes into or out of their open air prison, that the US should be sending the religious majority bombs to drop on the religious minority. Kind of objectively fucked up if you ask me.
minding your buisness and not preventing fascist dictators has as a consequence that violence will be enacted wether you want it or not silence is violence not because of some ideals but because of the way reality is
Or specifically in this case and paraphrasing somebody else adaptation on this and the original author’s whole point:
“First they came for Palestinians but because I was not a Palestinian I did nothing”
minding your buisness and not preventing fascist dictators
I like this because it is so flexible. Who’s the fascist? What constitutes minding your business and doing nothing?
deleted by creator
Removed by mod
The person I replied to changed their comment and it no longer applied, I deleted it out of courtesy.
LESSER OF TWO EVILS The republicans are also pro genocide. Shut up Ivan!
There`s just no winning on this matter. Genocide Joe or dictator fascist Trump with even more genocide
You guys are playing with fire
I think we can all agree that there is definitely a fire.
Who is playing with it, I think, is what the entire disagreement is over.
I dont normally throw my hat into these posts… But your right.
The single-issue voters with deomcrat leanings may end up throwing the election and that is very concerning. They do not appear to understand the consequences of what happens if 45 returns. If you fall into any demographic that has had an increase in rights and civil liberties in the last 150 years, I would be very worried about him attempting to remove them. On foreign policy, his attempts to undermine NATO and his fondness for dictators and despots should be the redest flag imaginable. That shift in geopolitics alone would be disastrous for billions of people, the scope of issues at hand for the US 2024 election is much larger than the conflict in Gaza.
I agree that this system is fucked and that it is fundementally broken. The leaders we have are both bad choices, but one activly wants to stear the ship into the rocks, and unlike last time, he knows where the levers of power are now.
My message to the single-issue protest voters, your in the same boat as the MAGA crowd, you are a useful idiot.
The single-issue voters with deomcrat leanings may end up throwing the election and that is very concerning.
objectively true. You’re options are:
- convince single-issue anti-genocide voters that a little bit of genocide is ok if democrats are doing it
- convince the democratic party that supporting genocide might lose them the election
for myself I think I know what the more sensible option is.
The cynic in me says you have no options, I believe there is no expectation that if 45 got re-elected that he would put his foot down and throw the US’s weight around to stop the conflict. I would expect him to make the situation even worse, and with that in mind, I dont think the options are that difficult.
The cynic in me says you have no options
In all honesty, I mean this as a kindness: what you are describing is complacency. It’s ok to feel overwhelmed by how dark the future looks, but it’s really, really important to avoid standing still.
You don’t have to be silly and post memes like me. Join an organization. Any one. Make friends who share your concerns and demonstrate.
Tik Tok or whatever needs to start teaching the children the actual history of the US so they realize we don’t get to vote for not killing children in this country. Fewer children, sure. And we might even pretend to be sad about it.
But if you don’t want to vote for child killing you’re gonna have to move because no matter who you vote for it’s going to happen in your name.
And we might even pretend to be sad about it.
we are certainly very good at that.
Public education has failed us all.
Oh, look… it’s the daily dose of “Genocide Joe” propaganda.
Who the hell is defending genocide?
Threatening the international criminal court because they are investigating a genocide is defending genocide
That’s because of the good old boys club making sure the ICC doesn’t start grabbing “western” leaders. Not because of genocide. Make no mistake that they place themselves above any one country’s actions.
Oh? So its dependent geographical location when it’s ok to hold leaders accountable to the genocide and war crimes they cause. Got ya. Putin being a war criminal, Cheers for the ICC. But now a US ‘ally’ is getting called out for credible accounts of warcrimes and provable mens rea for genocide? Well time to threaten the ICC with crushing sanctions from the fore most super power.
Maybe they are not interested in all western leaders, just the ones who war crime? Or defend war crime?
No, it’s dependent on being a powerful and wealthy nation that uses their flex to ensure they can continue to get away with what why want. If your part of that club you began invade all kids of countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, and whoever else and nobody can actually do anything about it. However, if you’re the leader of some tiny country on the losing end of doing dirty deeds, you get a bomb in your lap or hauled off to some prison, like Noriega.
This isn’t rocket science, “western” refers to a geopolitical standing, and even if Russia doesn’t fit the “western” bill, they nonetheless fall under the “too powerful to fuck with” category.
Joe Biden
He refuses to call it a genocide. He condemns some of the Israeli actions, as inadequate as that is.
Genocide defending, genocide denial
Potato, potahto
You have to vote for Biden or else!
vote for biden vote for biden vote for biden
Yea, we just need to vote for biden
Don’t vote for Biden. Vote for democracy. Vote for liberty. Vote for progress. Biden is an extremely fallible, flawed, individual. His name is on the ticket but there is something more. Most important and this is where everyone drops off. Keep voting.
At the very least vote so you don’t have to slog through an orange homunculus disrupting your daily struggles with more fear, terror, and human suffering.
Edit:
I got down voted for “Vote for progress”
Tell me how rational you are.
Vote for a kick to the nuts over a kick in the ass!
So inspiring. Fuck Biden for making that his offer, honestly. If that’s still the choice come november RIP democracy I guess, I don’t know many people who feel enthusiastic enough about genocide to miss work to vote for it.
Jokes on them, not voting is voting for more Genocide. I’m certain their enthusiasm for life will hit all time lows when they have Trump in the headlines every single day while more rights are stripped away.
The people you know. Suck.
Edit:
And I’m not some sort of all seeing oracle. I believe what I see with my eyes. Though it would be nice to gouge them out
The democrats are just so good at campaigning that they don’t even need to offer any good policies. Respect.
We’re 5 months out and the biden campaign site doesn’t even have any policies listed on it. It’s like he’s not even trying.
The strawman.
Top text: “When you pretend you want Trump to lose”
Bottom text: “But you really want Trump to win and it’s obvious”
Sigh… I am so tired of this gaslighting.
Just because people criticize Biden does not mean they are a follower of the MAGA cult.
Biden can do so much better then this. People want a reason to support him.
Instead we are being blamed for Biden’s failures, because Biden chooses not to listen. While every time we try to change course we are being told we are anti-democratic. That we are trying to get Trump elected.
Like the average voter has more power then the president.
At this point, I am on no-body’s side, because no one is anti-genocide.
I’m Asian and every time I criticize biden the comment is down voted. Sometimes they also call me Trump supporter. It’s honestly sad looking at the state of Americans.
Democrats still use reddit and subscribe to worldnews. That’s the only reason I can think off.
