Trump being worse deosn’t mean we can’t criticize Biden right now as the sitting president. I have been very supportive of the need to vote for Biden over Trump, but the Democrats need to stop doubling down on denying the atrocities in Gaza already.
Like they aren’t even using nuance or anything at this point. Threateninng the ICC is absolutely ridiculous.
We needed to get someone back in office who could potentially do something about the atrocities. Instead we elected someone who will double down. That wasn’t a good plan
This is unilaterally discrediting our country on the world stage. Trump was bad enough, but we could tell the world over half the county opposed him, and that he lost the popular vote.
This guy won the popular vote, and he’s out there supporting genocide. What a fucking embarrassment to humanity these “leaders” are. Fuck them both.
Obligatory yes, I will be voting for Biden again to fend off Trump. I’ll like it even less than I did last time, though.
Might I add, you will also undercut the concerted effort to supress DNC turn out. Just like every other election remember the ground rules; be cagey; be indirect; accuse people of moral failings; and never ever compromise or adjust your position.
the ground rules; be cagey; be indirect; accuse people of moral failings; and never ever compromise or adjust your position.
Yes those are the rules of being a politician (gotem)
Why is it always the risk is suppressing VOTER behavior, and never a risk of intentionally suppressing the politician’s genocidal desire? If it’s a covert strategy to suppress voter turnout to raise the expectations of the voters, how does any protest ever effect change?
Me more than anyone. To this day I can’t create a reddit account. I just know, come November I want another shot of changing things peacefully. Do understand the power of the US military. Stopping Christo-fascism depends on stopping Trump from grabbing the wheel. If the DNC did their own Jan 6 before Trump was inaugurated I’d applauding it because I know, that was our last chance.
Buddy, our country is not so great on the world stage. You honestly think we can sink lower?
We’ve been down this road so many times and it’s always a kick in the pants when we get hung up on it again and again. To properly take a moral stance you need to gain momentum before the primaries. Biden has not been shy about his stance on Isreal and bibi has been chasing this car like a dog on crack.
Oh, I’m talking about the world stage too. The US remains popular in much of Subsaharan Africa and East Asia (minus China and NK, natch), and moderately popular in Asia outside of MENA, with mixed views in Latin America. Our popularity dropped in all but three countries during Trump’s term, if memory serves - Pakistan, Israel, and Russia.
Criticizing Biden is fine, and everyone should, for the first three years and six months.
Also, if it wasn’t clear, Biden is super pissed off at Bibi for all his shit. But once trump is defeated we’ll all dogpile on. (Agree dissing ICC is vr bad as well fwiw)
I can only think people either are very aware of it (because it’s exactly right) or not aware of it at all, possibly their first time eligible to vote.
So one of the other things that is very frustrating is always being told that we just need to wait until after the next election to criticize anything. Our election cycles never seem to end.
You absolutely should not be waiting until the next election cycle. You should be voicing your opinion, voting in off-cycle and local elections, and voting for the least harmful option in every election, including the presidential election. It’s a huge machine and voting once every 4 years for the pre-packaged candidate isn’t an effective strategy if you actually want things to change.
Vote for people that make things better in your community, city, county, state, and then think about federal elections. Displacing the trove of do-nothings or detrimental actors in the smaller elections will change sentiment in the parties and will change the candidates they put through in the primaries… but it will take years for that to happen.
Either that or revolution… but that’s going to be a whole lot worse for everyone for a few decades, best case scenario.
You and me both. Reddit literally browser finger printed my device and banned me in 2023 because I wouldn’t stop raising the flag on Biden. Now here we are and I want to do the whole told you so shit but I know more is at stake here than any other election I’ve lived through.
Bibi may lose this election for Biden, and spiral the world downward. This will only strengthen the ties the US has with Israel, however. Trump would absolutely throw a ton of weight behind them, and perhaps even involve the US directly in the genocide.
Bibi doesn’t give a shit about Biden, and Biden is showing an astonishing amount of weakness by not standing up to him. I’m fucking embarrassed for him, and the entire democratic party.
If the only possible outcome is a strengthening of relations with a genocidal colonial project then the American democratic experiment has been dead for a long time
Agreed. If the Bushes hadn’t fucked us up so much in the middle east already we’d have maybe at least one or two more options, but right-wing assholes like GDubz and Bibi ruin everything.
Bull, to the fucking shit. Genocide isn’t just something you can fucking put off. Unless you don’t really care about the genocide. Seems you’re more upset at the optics. And let’s also mention that Biden is not any more angry at the genocide than you seem to be. All his moves are token and theater and even that was only bought with mass protests and plunging confidence numbers.
I’m more upset that in roughly twenty weeks’ time there is a critical, no-shit, very real existential threat to the actual democratic system that underpins this entire country, which as it happens supports much of the rest of the world, and a bunch of opportunistic yahoos would happily ignore it to bitch about one of the most progressive presidents we’ve had in forty years about an entirely different country’s genocide whose policies by the by is supported by that same existential motherfucking threat he’s fighting! For goddamned fuck’s SAKE what the hell is wrong with you.
The ‘biden genicide’ crowd is absolutely performing the russian trolls’ jobs admirably. And seem to be proud of it.
Democrats have no choice but to condemn the ICC and deny the genocide is happening because for some completely unknown reason the electorate has been lead to believe Israel is a good, moral state actor with absolutely no ill-intent and has never done anything wrong that was unjustified.
Now if they ever lie to me about Israel and I find out about it…
I don’t think anyone is denying the atrocities. Or at least none that I’ve seen-
But what I AM seeing is a lot of people that understand the nuance in the situation, and trying to explain that not voting is going to get Trump. I also see people coming back to challenge this in bad faith knowing it’s been explained to them many times over.
But we’re not allowed to call these people what they are. So we have to play along with it and pretend it’s all legitimate.
The only reason you feel you have to pretend that it’s legitimate is because it’s true on face-value: democrats have chosen a losing position and are going to lose because of it. Rather than pledging fealty before we need to it’s far more important to work to get democrats to ammend their policy
Wishing people would ignore the issue and hold their nose isn’t a strategy to keep Trump out, it’s denial
Undermining the ICC is tradition for the USA. There’s plenty of people waiting in line to get US soldiers, officers and politicians denounced at the ICC the day they’re capable of prosecuting US citizens.
Yes, but Republican voters pretty much ALWAYS vote, and they vote R down the whole ticket. A large portion of people who vote for Democrats only show up to vote if there is someone they can get excited about. Establishment Dems should consider this a law of the universe; it simply is the way it is. Instead of continuously trying to bully these people into showing up to vote (which has the opposite effect) maybe they should start asking what would get these people excited to vote for Joe. And then get Joe to do those things.
They act like everyone owes them a vote. They don’t. They are asking for something from the left, they need to start negotiating in good faith and expect to have to give something in return. Doing anything less than whatever it takes to get people to vote for Joe should be considered them trying to lose and get Trump elected again.
I have a question, seriously: why are we looking to the President - the Chief Executive Officer - to define our policy? Isn’t he supposed to only implement the policies that have been enacted by Congress? Despite how Rs tried to portray Obama, and how Trump would act if given half a chance, the role of President isn’t identical to that of King - just how much leeway does he even have here? When tRump tried to insert himself in the opposite manner way back in the day, we impeached him - the President can propose but not define policy, right?
On that note, he did try to halt funding to Israel. Republicans in Congress overruled him. Ofc the reality is far more complex than what I am portraying here, b/c while he must enact existing policies, again he also should propose new ones too… which he isn’t doing much of. But how could we even tell the difference between Biden attempting to “work within the (existing) system”, set forth by our behind-the-scenes overlords and Congress + Supreme Court (heavy sidenote: with its current make-up, that Trump put into place), vs. him not really caring that much about the issue at all? Or really, at the end of the day, is there even a functional difference between them?
I don’t know. I truly don’t know. All I know is that while Biden may not be as liberal as people would have hoped, tRump is actively anti-liberal. And those are our two choices. :-( If we want better, perhaps we need to put forth some effort to make it happen. Like step up and actually run for office - and then dodge all the literal death threats + attempts that would result from conservatives for doing so. Otherwise, we get whatever they offer to us - they meaning those who will actually act rather than simply talk. Which remember, Biden is one of them, and he even has already made it to the short-list of the only two candidates who matter, which isn’t nothing!
He gets to balance the power of Congress. He can refuse to enforce their bullshit. But more importantly he’s the leader of the Democratic party. He has massive influence on the direction the party takes, and can put pressure on members who get out of line.
I think most people are done with people who try to “work within the system set forth by our behind the scenes over lords”… We want someone who’s going to call them on that crap constantly and fight against it with every move they make. Biden is clearly not doing that.
I actually got heavily involved with politics after Bernie. Including running for office in a very red district where I had no chance of winning (just happened to be where I was living). Turns out, the establishment would rather reject anyone left of them and lose to Republicans, than to move an inch to the left and anger their masters
Can he though? Well anyway, he definitely could do more, no question about that.
What bothers me is this entitled thinking, like “we deserve better candidates” - okay, yeah, obviously, but we won’t get those until we make them. AOC, Bernie, there actually are several who are good, but apparently for some (whatever) reason they aren’t “viable”? Hence why Biden is there, instead of one of them.
(And you even ran - damn that’s impressive! To be absolutely clear, I am not calling you one of these “entitled thinkers”, b/c you actually stood up and tried to DO SOMETHING about it, first-hand - kudos!)
Biden offers the good that can be done, rather than what should be - to use the Batman phrase, the politician that America needs, rather than the one it deserves… or whatever?
There is also that phrase, attributed to Otto von Bismarck, that “Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable — the art of the next best.” Put another way, the whole thing is a matter of pragmatism, instead of idealism.
And in every other situation, Biden has been the pragmatist. Gas prices, unionization of railway workers, inflation, etc. So I wondered if he’s doing something similar here too, even if it looks like 10-D chess to us, and based on his other past successes (that the media refuses to highlight, b/c they are “boring”), I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.
But my knowledge on this matter, especially lately, is shaky, so I could definitely be wrong there - perhaps this issue truly is the dividing line. I need to stop talking about that until I read up on the matter some more.
Though one thing that won’t ever change is that in the next upcoming election, we still only get the two choices though - Biden vs. Trump:-(. It’s like: imagine a robber steals your wallet, and offers you either the cash or your ID cards back (apparently the credit cards aren’t on the table for negotiation), but what they want in return is for you to say “please” - what do you do? Take one, or the other, or just walk away and leave both behind? Fighting the US government does not seem an effective option. We can cry about it, maybe go away and train for decades (as Batman did:-P) with the thought of perhaps getting revenge, but in that moment, our choices are limited. As I understand it, that is pragmatism.
Unfortunately when faced with genocidal fascism, pragmatism looks an awful lot like appeasement… And after 40 years of appeasing the oligarchy while they slowly take away our rights, health, and wealth, I think people are almost ready to fight. Maybe not physically… But in any way they can.
Which brings us to the fact that there are 3 choices in the upcoming election… Trump, Biden, stay home (or 3rd party, but that’s basically the same as staying home unfortunately)… If Dems and Biden really wanted to get people off the couch and in to vote they’d be figuring out what it takes and doing it… Instead they’re just following their already shown to fail bullying strategy… It’s really irritating to see them seemingly willfully losing to Trump rather than go against their corporate masters… Again
The reason Trump is so popular is because he’s a protest vote. At least in the delusional minds of the maga crowd. He is certainly not a part of the oligarchy controlling the establishment… He’s his own oligarchy, and a dangerous one too… But his followers are very dumb and very brainwashed. All they see is that he’s a way to fight against the establishment. The Dems needed to put up a protest candidate of their own. Utterly reject the establishment/oligarchy, and embrace the protest… Instead they once again doubled down on the most establishment candidate they could find.
Not in a useful way though. Conservatives fought, and therefore won the overturning of Roe v. Wade - they put in decades of effort to achieve that, and therefore did. They stood in solidarity, prior to Trump, and now the whole party is sliding QUICKLY and EXTREMELY Right-wards, to once again stand in solidarity at that new point.
In contrast, liberals tend to eat their own - case in point, look at what we all are doing to Biden right now (me too just to a lesser degree than some others).
And I am not even saying that is “wrong” - that is simply the nature of the game when talking about “correctness”. e.g., 1 + 1 = 2, but 1.9 and 2.1 don’t “quite” cut it, nor even 1.99 or 2.01, despite being so very, very close. Or let’s use an even more hyperbolic example to illustrate: suppose I ask a liberal what the answer is to the question of “what is 1+1?”, and the Democrats step in to say that “the answer is +1,000” (while ofc pocketing the other $998.00, b/c of corruption). That’s way off… but the answer that conservatives give is to kill your dog and fuck your mom, and then risk her life too b/c she’s not allowed to have an abortion even despite the rape (and then the Republicans pocket not only $998.00 but $1,999,999.00, just b/c they can). So which is “better”? Are there alternatives? Is the answer given by the Democrats more “correct”, despite being so very, VERY wrong? TLDR on this point: they are both wrong, but not equally so.
If Dems and Biden really wanted to get people off the couch and in to vote they’d be figuring out what it takes and doing it…
Yup.
Instead they once again doubled down on the most establishment candidate they could find.
Yup.
The rich people - like HRC - are so disconnected from modern life, that they cannot conceive of what it is like to be a Millennial or a Gen-Z person, who looks forward to not just “intern first, then real job”, but “intern forever, b/c that’s just all there is these days, stable job=never, ability to own a home=never (or is it never? either way it certainly looks that way now and shows no signs of improving… literally ever, plus Social Security + Medicare are drying up and with that money have been already stolen from us, will literally never, ever, EVER be returned…)”. And HRC’s response to ALL of that was, in short: “Life is good, let’s keep it that way, shall we?:-P PokeMon-go-to-the-polls, woot (please believe that I’m just like you - one of the [insert your predefined categorization here] - and btw did you know I carry hot sauce in my purse at all times?)”.
On the other hand, the Gaza situation is just the icing on the cake: regardless of the actual genocide going on there, it won’t fix our economy. The latter involves terribly boring steps, many of which Biden seems to be taking? But the media won’t report them, and I wouldn’t understand them myself anyway so… we are back to the “Just trust me bro - I got this! (also I’m totally not a senile old man-puppet propped up on crack to give speeches while the real work is done behind-the-scenes, which we cannot talk about for uh… reasons, but it’ll be good, this time, I promise, just vote for me and you’ll see what we have planned later!)”
Also, are we even arguing anymore? :-P I think we agree on pretty much everything. Oh I remember, there’s one more detail got us started: the difference between what I am saying vs. you is that we are not being offered a primary with which to pick a different approach. So when you say things like “The Dems needed to…” and “If Dems and Biden really wanted to…” and “Instead they’re just… It’s really irritating to”, my question is: now what? So you don’t like it - I don’t either - but what are we going to do about it? Yeah, that’s what I thought - I have no clue either.:-( But I’ve been wrong before - e.g. I thought no way would Trump win - so now I am just trying to strain my eyes open as wide as I can make them, to learn from whatever happens.
Sadly the Republican’s “grassroots” orgs get tons of funding from the oligarchy, while any grassroots orgs on the left get none… Without funding I don’t know that there’s much we can do. Personally I worked my ass off in progressive politics for a few years after Bernie, but unfortunately eventually had to move on to something that can actually pay. Now I’ve moved as far away from the South as I could, bought a gun and ammo, and a couple weeks worth of emergency food. I don’t see any way out of this without it getting really bad. End stage capitalism is rough.
Besides the fact that each new generation is more progressive than the last one, honestly my only hope is that as AI starts taking their jobs, and the oligarchy keeps squeezing more and more out of an ever shrinking upper middle class, that eventually they’ll start joining us and voting progressive. Like right now 50%ish of people own nothing… What about when they’ve squeezed every drop out of 75%? 90%? At what point do the people in their golden bubbles start realizing they’ve been getting screwed all along too? Hopefully it’s before millions die in the streets.
I too walked away from not one but two cushy jobs, to try to become “part of the solution”. There are a lot of us who care, truly & deeply, and as you said willing to FIGHT! Sadly, I quickly discovered that I was a classic bleeding-heart liberal with more compassion than brains. I don’t know about you, but I at least was not a good leader, b/c while I meant well, I was going about things in an extremely naive manner. As most people do ofc, so I am not special in that regard at all. Though it did finally cause me to wake up and realize: the reason that we cannot save the world is that it does not WANT to be saved.
People are too comfortable, but then when things get bad, they don’t suddenly turn their lives around and become everything that they previously were not!? I have heard SO MANY stories of people whose mother, father, sister, brother, and literally all immediate family members plus many slightly beyond that died of covid, but the survivors still went to Trump rallies and hoped that he would save them. “Facts” were never what convinced these people to follow him, so still more facts that ran in contradiction to what they could plainly see with their very own eyes, and had a HUGE effect upon their lives, were not going to convince them to switch.
And now I’ve moved back to a large city environ - where sth like >90% of the people will vote Democrat, so my vote doesn’t count one bit, but despite knowing that, I am prioritizing myself right now, over the planet. Maybe after I pull myself together I will try again, though who wants to live in an area where doctors try their hardest to avoid? Anyway, I’ve lost all faith in democracy - “we” are not smart enough to lead ourselves, and therefore I am not even entirely certain that I am against oligarchy, communism, feudalism, etc. If democracy is to survive, then it needs to… “survive”, if you know what I mean? Like, disinformation is deadly to it, especially with such an uneducated populace as we have, so it either needs to adapt or else it will be discarded - no matter what we wish or hope for to the contrary.
Conservatives have “conviction” behind their beliefs - enough to make what they want come to pass at any rate - and while I am not advocating for conservative belief structures, I am saying that if it is to be opposed, then it must be met with equally strong convictions, on our side. Which especially with the majority population beliving this way, should be relatively “easy”…r-r-right? Except, even with a democratic majority, what got done? Wrt the Supreme Court, or gun control, or anything at all that you could name - what got done during that majority?!? Hence we lack convictions. Hence, unless that changes, we will continue to lose, every time.
Which is why, as you pointed out, there is actually hope on the way. As people continue to get worse off, maybe they’ll wake up? e.g. form unions. There was no hope until they were ready - b/c you can lead a horse to water but cannot force it to drink - but if they get ready then…?
I have no gun. If bad stuff happens, I will simply die. I don’t mind - there are far worse things:-D.
Millions will die. Possibly billions - not in the USA but I mean as a result of climate change, which is moving much faster than hoped. As usual, and like every movie ever, scientists were very gentle with their conservative estimations and only now are we getting higher precision bounds to realize that we aren’t all going to make it.
Oh right, also, millions have died already - more than all wars combined - as a result of the pandemic, though this had to be inferred from the “excess death” statistics since we refused to officially count them, and some states did everything possible to mislead and deflect the numbers (even the “liberal” NYC iirc due to the senior home incidents). As Trump proved over & over again, he was for rioting in the streets, but I have to hand it to Biden, b/c whether for good or ill in the long-run, he did manage to calm things down considerably, in offering hope (false? we’ll see I suppose).
Yes… I bet if they’d put up someone who’s actually on the left, it would be a different story. Like, I don’t love everything about Bernie (because he’s not as "left"as I’d like), but I would have gladly voted for him against Trump. Millions of young people would have gotten excited to go vote for him too.
Every election the Dems fight tooth and nail to stop actual progressives from being allowed into the general. They put up their centrists instead. So of course they aren’t “left” enough.
The way I interpreted their comment is that people often mention Biden supports genocide and some people may assume Trump doesn’t - so it’s worth mentioning that of course Trump supports genocide too (on top of all the other horrible shit he supports contributing to why he shouldn’t be in power).
If I’ve learned anything about people through the past decade of politics its that you can never ever assume anything about people being intelligent in any group.
If I’ve learned anything about political discourse it’s that you have to assume that some level of mutual understanding is possible for communication to be worthwhile, and for everything to not devolve into back and forth trolling. So, while you can’t assume intelligence, sure, you also kind of have to.
“There’s literally a big difference between supporting a genocide but not wanting to and supporting a genocide and wanting to” - A very serious pugjesus.
I mean, Trump is also defending genocide too though…
Trump being worse deosn’t mean we can’t criticize Biden right now as the sitting president. I have been very supportive of the need to vote for Biden over Trump, but the Democrats need to stop doubling down on denying the atrocities in Gaza already.
Like they aren’t even using nuance or anything at this point. Threateninng the ICC is absolutely ridiculous.
We needed to get someone back in office who could potentially do something about the atrocities. Instead we elected someone who will double down. That wasn’t a good plan
This is unilaterally discrediting our country on the world stage. Trump was bad enough, but we could tell the world over half the county opposed him, and that he lost the popular vote.
This guy won the popular vote, and he’s out there supporting genocide. What a fucking embarrassment to humanity these “leaders” are. Fuck them both.
Obligatory yes, I will be voting for Biden again to fend off Trump. I’ll like it even less than I did last time, though.
You are absolutely not obligated to say who you will be voting for.
If anything you’ve undercut your ‘fuck them both’ by following it with ‘but of course I will be supporting THIS ONE SPECIFICALLY’.
Do what you want at the voting booth but don’t undercut your own message by announcing your hand.
Might I add, you will also undercut the concerted effort to supress DNC turn out. Just like every other election remember the ground rules; be cagey; be indirect; accuse people of moral failings; and never ever compromise or adjust your position.
Yes those are the rules of being a politician (gotem)
Why is it always the risk is suppressing VOTER behavior, and never a risk of intentionally suppressing the politician’s genocidal desire? If it’s a covert strategy to suppress voter turnout to raise the expectations of the voters, how does any protest ever effect change?
Me more than anyone. To this day I can’t create a reddit account. I just know, come November I want another shot of changing things peacefully. Do understand the power of the US military. Stopping Christo-fascism depends on stopping Trump from grabbing the wheel. If the DNC did their own Jan 6 before Trump was inaugurated I’d applauding it because I know, that was our last chance.
Buddy, our country is not so great on the world stage. You honestly think we can sink lower?
We’ve been down this road so many times and it’s always a kick in the pants when we get hung up on it again and again. To properly take a moral stance you need to gain momentum before the primaries. Biden has not been shy about his stance on Isreal and bibi has been chasing this car like a dog on crack.
Oh, absolutely.
We’re talking world stage. Trump wins, we will just learn what everyone else already knows.
Oh, I’m talking about the world stage too. The US remains popular in much of Subsaharan Africa and East Asia (minus China and NK, natch), and moderately popular in Asia outside of MENA, with mixed views in Latin America. Our popularity dropped in all but three countries during Trump’s term, if memory serves - Pakistan, Israel, and Russia.
you’re joking right
No, and I can provide data if you’re interested.
First things first.
Criticizing Biden is fine, and everyone should, for the first three years and six months.
Also, if it wasn’t clear, Biden is super pissed off at Bibi for all his shit. But once trump is defeated we’ll all dogpile on. (Agree dissing ICC is vr bad as well fwiw)
Until then, there is not much difference between “not voting bc genoside” / “grr biden genocide democrats” and https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/09/16/1035851/facebook-troll-farms-report-us-2020-election/
I can only think people either are very aware of it (because it’s exactly right) or not aware of it at all, possibly their first time eligible to vote.
So one of the other things that is very frustrating is always being told that we just need to wait until after the next election to criticize anything. Our election cycles never seem to end.
Yeah man life is really fuckin frustrating. Welcome to earf.
You absolutely should not be waiting until the next election cycle. You should be voicing your opinion, voting in off-cycle and local elections, and voting for the least harmful option in every election, including the presidential election. It’s a huge machine and voting once every 4 years for the pre-packaged candidate isn’t an effective strategy if you actually want things to change.
Vote for people that make things better in your community, city, county, state, and then think about federal elections. Displacing the trove of do-nothings or detrimental actors in the smaller elections will change sentiment in the parties and will change the candidates they put through in the primaries… but it will take years for that to happen.
Either that or revolution… but that’s going to be a whole lot worse for everyone for a few decades, best case scenario.
That’s the problem. Most of the far left idealists don’t give a shit between elections. This happens every cycle. And every cycle they never learn.
That’s kind of how ‘self rule’ works. You’re supposed to pay attention to politics.
People not voting is how we got in this mess in the first place.
Why do you think the GOP’s final defense is always “both sides do it?”
You and me both. Reddit literally browser finger printed my device and banned me in 2023 because I wouldn’t stop raising the flag on Biden. Now here we are and I want to do the whole told you so shit but I know more is at stake here than any other election I’ve lived through.
Bibi may lose this election for Biden, and spiral the world downward. This will only strengthen the ties the US has with Israel, however. Trump would absolutely throw a ton of weight behind them, and perhaps even involve the US directly in the genocide.
Bibi doesn’t give a shit about Biden, and Biden is showing an astonishing amount of weakness by not standing up to him. I’m fucking embarrassed for him, and the entire democratic party.
If the only possible outcome is a strengthening of relations with a genocidal colonial project then the American democratic experiment has been dead for a long time
Agreed. If the Bushes hadn’t fucked us up so much in the middle east already we’d have maybe at least one or two more options, but right-wing assholes like GDubz and Bibi ruin everything.
Bull, to the fucking shit. Genocide isn’t just something you can fucking put off. Unless you don’t really care about the genocide. Seems you’re more upset at the optics. And let’s also mention that Biden is not any more angry at the genocide than you seem to be. All his moves are token and theater and even that was only bought with mass protests and plunging confidence numbers.
People are being genocided ‘TODAY’
I’m more upset that in roughly twenty weeks’ time there is a critical, no-shit, very real existential threat to the actual democratic system that underpins this entire country, which as it happens supports much of the rest of the world, and a bunch of opportunistic yahoos would happily ignore it to bitch about one of the most progressive presidents we’ve had in forty years about an entirely different country’s genocide whose policies by the by is supported by that same existential motherfucking threat he’s fighting! For goddamned fuck’s SAKE what the hell is wrong with you.
The ‘biden genicide’ crowd is absolutely performing the russian trolls’ jobs admirably. And seem to be proud of it.
It really fucking isn’t. At all. He recently went full genocide denier on Bibi’s behalf.
Democrats have no choice but to condemn the ICC and deny the genocide is happening because for some completely unknown reason the electorate has been lead to believe Israel is a good, moral state actor with absolutely no ill-intent and has never done anything wrong that was unjustified.
Now if they ever lie to me about Israel and I find out about it…
Every time Bibi claims that the IDF is the most moral army in the world I roll my eyes.
This is the reasonable take.
I don’t think anyone is denying the atrocities. Or at least none that I’ve seen-
But what I AM seeing is a lot of people that understand the nuance in the situation, and trying to explain that not voting is going to get Trump. I also see people coming back to challenge this in bad faith knowing it’s been explained to them many times over.
But we’re not allowed to call these people what they are. So we have to play along with it and pretend it’s all legitimate.
The only reason you feel you have to pretend that it’s legitimate is because it’s true on face-value: democrats have chosen a losing position and are going to lose because of it. Rather than pledging fealty before we need to it’s far more important to work to get democrats to ammend their policy
Wishing people would ignore the issue and hold their nose isn’t a strategy to keep Trump out, it’s denial
“Contrary to allegations against Israel made by the International Court of Justice, what’s happening is not genocide.” - Joe Biden.
Jesus fucking Christ man. Read for the topic, now for what you want it to mean…
No one was talking about Biden. We’re clearly talking about how the far left accuses anyone that is still voting as supporting genocide.
Goalposts can teleport, I see.
Undermining the ICC is tradition for the USA. There’s plenty of people waiting in line to get US soldiers, officers and politicians denounced at the ICC the day they’re capable of prosecuting US citizens.
Yes, but Republican voters pretty much ALWAYS vote, and they vote R down the whole ticket. A large portion of people who vote for Democrats only show up to vote if there is someone they can get excited about. Establishment Dems should consider this a law of the universe; it simply is the way it is. Instead of continuously trying to bully these people into showing up to vote (which has the opposite effect) maybe they should start asking what would get these people excited to vote for Joe. And then get Joe to do those things.
They act like everyone owes them a vote. They don’t. They are asking for something from the left, they need to start negotiating in good faith and expect to have to give something in return. Doing anything less than whatever it takes to get people to vote for Joe should be considered them trying to lose and get Trump elected again.
Democrats fall in love.
Republicans fall in line.
I think the die-hard Trump cultists are genuinely in love with him, though.
And yet Democratic leadership keeps operating under the assumption that they can order Democrats to fall in line.
I have a question, seriously: why are we looking to the President - the Chief Executive Officer - to define our policy? Isn’t he supposed to only implement the policies that have been enacted by Congress? Despite how Rs tried to portray Obama, and how Trump would act if given half a chance, the role of President isn’t identical to that of King - just how much leeway does he even have here? When tRump tried to insert himself in the opposite manner way back in the day, we impeached him - the President can propose but not define policy, right?
On that note, he did try to halt funding to Israel. Republicans in Congress overruled him. Ofc the reality is far more complex than what I am portraying here, b/c while he must enact existing policies, again he also should propose new ones too… which he isn’t doing much of. But how could we even tell the difference between Biden attempting to “work within the (existing) system”, set forth by our behind-the-scenes overlords and Congress + Supreme Court (heavy sidenote: with its current make-up, that Trump put into place), vs. him not really caring that much about the issue at all? Or really, at the end of the day, is there even a functional difference between them?
I don’t know. I truly don’t know. All I know is that while Biden may not be as liberal as people would have hoped, tRump is actively anti-liberal. And those are our two choices. :-( If we want better, perhaps we need to put forth some effort to make it happen. Like step up and actually run for office - and then dodge all the literal death threats + attempts that would result from conservatives for doing so. Otherwise, we get whatever they offer to us - they meaning those who will actually act rather than simply talk. Which remember, Biden is one of them, and he even has already made it to the short-list of the only two candidates who matter, which isn’t nothing!
He also called the ICC warrant against Israeli leaders outrageous and is stonewalling every attempt by the UN to intervene against Israel.
I don’t think he gets a pass on this
Thanks, that’s helpful.:-)
He may still be trying to work the issue from the inside, but indeed there’s a line there, somewhere.
We still only get the two choices though:-(.
He gets to balance the power of Congress. He can refuse to enforce their bullshit. But more importantly he’s the leader of the Democratic party. He has massive influence on the direction the party takes, and can put pressure on members who get out of line.
I think most people are done with people who try to “work within the system set forth by our behind the scenes over lords”… We want someone who’s going to call them on that crap constantly and fight against it with every move they make. Biden is clearly not doing that.
I actually got heavily involved with politics after Bernie. Including running for office in a very red district where I had no chance of winning (just happened to be where I was living). Turns out, the establishment would rather reject anyone left of them and lose to Republicans, than to move an inch to the left and anger their masters
Can he though? Well anyway, he definitely could do more, no question about that.
What bothers me is this entitled thinking, like “we deserve better candidates” - okay, yeah, obviously, but we won’t get those until we make them. AOC, Bernie, there actually are several who are good, but apparently for some (whatever) reason they aren’t “viable”? Hence why Biden is there, instead of one of them.
(And you even ran - damn that’s impressive! To be absolutely clear, I am not calling you one of these “entitled thinkers”, b/c you actually stood up and tried to DO SOMETHING about it, first-hand - kudos!)
Biden offers the good that can be done, rather than what should be - to use the Batman phrase, the politician that America needs, rather than the one it deserves… or whatever?
There is also that phrase, attributed to Otto von Bismarck, that “Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable — the art of the next best.” Put another way, the whole thing is a matter of pragmatism, instead of idealism.
And in every other situation, Biden has been the pragmatist. Gas prices, unionization of railway workers, inflation, etc. So I wondered if he’s doing something similar here too, even if it looks like 10-D chess to us, and based on his other past successes (that the media refuses to highlight, b/c they are “boring”), I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.
But my knowledge on this matter, especially lately, is shaky, so I could definitely be wrong there - perhaps this issue truly is the dividing line. I need to stop talking about that until I read up on the matter some more.
Though one thing that won’t ever change is that in the next upcoming election, we still only get the two choices though - Biden vs. Trump:-(. It’s like: imagine a robber steals your wallet, and offers you either the cash or your ID cards back (apparently the credit cards aren’t on the table for negotiation), but what they want in return is for you to say “please” - what do you do? Take one, or the other, or just walk away and leave both behind? Fighting the US government does not seem an effective option. We can cry about it, maybe go away and train for decades (as Batman did:-P) with the thought of perhaps getting revenge, but in that moment, our choices are limited. As I understand it, that is pragmatism.
Unfortunately when faced with genocidal fascism, pragmatism looks an awful lot like appeasement… And after 40 years of appeasing the oligarchy while they slowly take away our rights, health, and wealth, I think people are almost ready to fight. Maybe not physically… But in any way they can.
Which brings us to the fact that there are 3 choices in the upcoming election… Trump, Biden, stay home (or 3rd party, but that’s basically the same as staying home unfortunately)… If Dems and Biden really wanted to get people off the couch and in to vote they’d be figuring out what it takes and doing it… Instead they’re just following their already shown to fail bullying strategy… It’s really irritating to see them seemingly willfully losing to Trump rather than go against their corporate masters… Again
The reason Trump is so popular is because he’s a protest vote. At least in the delusional minds of the maga crowd. He is certainly not a part of the oligarchy controlling the establishment… He’s his own oligarchy, and a dangerous one too… But his followers are very dumb and very brainwashed. All they see is that he’s a way to fight against the establishment. The Dems needed to put up a protest candidate of their own. Utterly reject the establishment/oligarchy, and embrace the protest… Instead they once again doubled down on the most establishment candidate they could find.
Not in a useful way though. Conservatives fought, and therefore won the overturning of Roe v. Wade - they put in decades of effort to achieve that, and therefore did. They stood in solidarity, prior to Trump, and now the whole party is sliding QUICKLY and EXTREMELY Right-wards, to once again stand in solidarity at that new point.
In contrast, liberals tend to eat their own - case in point, look at what we all are doing to Biden right now (me too just to a lesser degree than some others).
And I am not even saying that is “wrong” - that is simply the nature of the game when talking about “correctness”. e.g., 1 + 1 = 2, but 1.9 and 2.1 don’t “quite” cut it, nor even 1.99 or 2.01, despite being so very, very close. Or let’s use an even more hyperbolic example to illustrate: suppose I ask a liberal what the answer is to the question of “what is 1+1?”, and the Democrats step in to say that “the answer is +1,000” (while ofc pocketing the other $998.00, b/c of corruption). That’s way off… but the answer that conservatives give is to kill your dog and fuck your mom, and then risk her life too b/c she’s not allowed to have an abortion even despite the rape (and then the Republicans pocket not only $998.00 but $1,999,999.00, just b/c they can). So which is “better”? Are there alternatives? Is the answer given by the Democrats more “correct”, despite being so very, VERY wrong? TLDR on this point: they are both wrong, but not equally so.
Yup.
Yup.
The rich people - like HRC - are so disconnected from modern life, that they cannot conceive of what it is like to be a Millennial or a Gen-Z person, who looks forward to not just “intern first, then real job”, but “intern forever, b/c that’s just all there is these days, stable job=never, ability to own a home=never (or is it never? either way it certainly looks that way now and shows no signs of improving… literally ever, plus Social Security + Medicare are drying up and with that money have been already stolen from us, will literally never, ever, EVER be returned…)”. And HRC’s response to ALL of that was, in short: “Life is good, let’s keep it that way, shall we?:-P PokeMon-go-to-the-polls, woot (please believe that I’m just like you - one of the [insert your predefined categorization here] - and btw did you know I carry hot sauce in my purse at all times?)”.
On the other hand, the Gaza situation is just the icing on the cake: regardless of the actual genocide going on there, it won’t fix our economy. The latter involves terribly boring steps, many of which Biden seems to be taking? But the media won’t report them, and I wouldn’t understand them myself anyway so… we are back to the “Just trust me bro - I got this! (also I’m totally not a senile old man-puppet propped up on crack to give speeches while the real work is done behind-the-scenes, which we cannot talk about for uh… reasons, but it’ll be good, this time, I promise, just vote for me and you’ll see what we have planned later!)”
Also, are we even arguing anymore? :-P I think we agree on pretty much everything. Oh I remember, there’s one more detail got us started: the difference between what I am saying vs. you is that we are not being offered a primary with which to pick a different approach. So when you say things like “The Dems needed to…” and “If Dems and Biden really wanted to…” and “Instead they’re just… It’s really irritating to”, my question is: now what? So you don’t like it - I don’t either - but what are we going to do about it? Yeah, that’s what I thought - I have no clue either.:-( But I’ve been wrong before - e.g. I thought no way would Trump win - so now I am just trying to strain my eyes open as wide as I can make them, to learn from whatever happens.
I appreciate your thoughtful response.
Sadly the Republican’s “grassroots” orgs get tons of funding from the oligarchy, while any grassroots orgs on the left get none… Without funding I don’t know that there’s much we can do. Personally I worked my ass off in progressive politics for a few years after Bernie, but unfortunately eventually had to move on to something that can actually pay. Now I’ve moved as far away from the South as I could, bought a gun and ammo, and a couple weeks worth of emergency food. I don’t see any way out of this without it getting really bad. End stage capitalism is rough.
Besides the fact that each new generation is more progressive than the last one, honestly my only hope is that as AI starts taking their jobs, and the oligarchy keeps squeezing more and more out of an ever shrinking upper middle class, that eventually they’ll start joining us and voting progressive. Like right now 50%ish of people own nothing… What about when they’ve squeezed every drop out of 75%? 90%? At what point do the people in their golden bubbles start realizing they’ve been getting screwed all along too? Hopefully it’s before millions die in the streets.
I too walked away from not one but two cushy jobs, to try to become “part of the solution”. There are a lot of us who care, truly & deeply, and as you said willing to FIGHT! Sadly, I quickly discovered that I was a classic bleeding-heart liberal with more compassion than brains. I don’t know about you, but I at least was not a good leader, b/c while I meant well, I was going about things in an extremely naive manner. As most people do ofc, so I am not special in that regard at all. Though it did finally cause me to wake up and realize: the reason that we cannot save the world is that it does not WANT to be saved.
People are too comfortable, but then when things get bad, they don’t suddenly turn their lives around and become everything that they previously were not!? I have heard SO MANY stories of people whose mother, father, sister, brother, and literally all immediate family members plus many slightly beyond that died of covid, but the survivors still went to Trump rallies and hoped that he would save them. “Facts” were never what convinced these people to follow him, so still more facts that ran in contradiction to what they could plainly see with their very own eyes, and had a HUGE effect upon their lives, were not going to convince them to switch.
And now I’ve moved back to a large city environ - where sth like >90% of the people will vote Democrat, so my vote doesn’t count one bit, but despite knowing that, I am prioritizing myself right now, over the planet. Maybe after I pull myself together I will try again, though who wants to live in an area where doctors try their hardest to avoid? Anyway, I’ve lost all faith in democracy - “we” are not smart enough to lead ourselves, and therefore I am not even entirely certain that I am against oligarchy, communism, feudalism, etc. If democracy is to survive, then it needs to… “survive”, if you know what I mean? Like, disinformation is deadly to it, especially with such an uneducated populace as we have, so it either needs to adapt or else it will be discarded - no matter what we wish or hope for to the contrary.
Conservatives have “conviction” behind their beliefs - enough to make what they want come to pass at any rate - and while I am not advocating for conservative belief structures, I am saying that if it is to be opposed, then it must be met with equally strong convictions, on our side. Which especially with the majority population beliving this way, should be relatively “easy”…r-r-right? Except, even with a democratic majority, what got done? Wrt the Supreme Court, or gun control, or anything at all that you could name - what got done during that majority?!? Hence we lack convictions. Hence, unless that changes, we will continue to lose, every time.
Which is why, as you pointed out, there is actually hope on the way. As people continue to get worse off, maybe they’ll wake up? e.g. form unions. There was no hope until they were ready - b/c you can lead a horse to water but cannot force it to drink - but if they get ready then…?
I have no gun. If bad stuff happens, I will simply die. I don’t mind - there are far worse things:-D.
Millions will die. Possibly billions - not in the USA but I mean as a result of climate change, which is moving much faster than hoped. As usual, and like every movie ever, scientists were very gentle with their conservative estimations and only now are we getting higher precision bounds to realize that we aren’t all going to make it.
Oh right, also, millions have died already - more than all wars combined - as a result of the pandemic, though this had to be inferred from the “excess death” statistics since we refused to officially count them, and some states did everything possible to mislead and deflect the numbers (even the “liberal” NYC iirc due to the senior home incidents). As Trump proved over & over again, he was for rioting in the streets, but I have to hand it to Biden, b/c whether for good or ill in the long-run, he did manage to calm things down considerably, in offering hope (false? we’ll see I suppose).
That would work if voters are reasonable but they’re not, there’s been something every single time - and yes it’s always ‘but this time it’s serious’
Could you explain what you mean a bit more?
Every election there is a reason that the left candidate isn’t left enough for the purists - every single time.
Yes… I bet if they’d put up someone who’s actually on the left, it would be a different story. Like, I don’t love everything about Bernie (because he’s not as "left"as I’d like), but I would have gladly voted for him against Trump. Millions of young people would have gotten excited to go vote for him too.
Every election the Dems fight tooth and nail to stop actual progressives from being allowed into the general. They put up their centrists instead. So of course they aren’t “left” enough.
Is this ‘bOtH sIdEs’? or ‘wHaTaBoUt TrUmP’?
The way I interpreted their comment is that people often mention Biden supports genocide and some people may assume Trump doesn’t - so it’s worth mentioning that of course Trump supports genocide too (on top of all the other horrible shit he supports contributing to why he shouldn’t be in power).
I would be amazed if anyone on lemmy.world was at all unaware of trump’s encouragement of genocide.
I am amazed that anyone on lemmy.world could have possibly thought people on lemmy were unaware of Trump’s encouragement of genocide.
I am not surprised that it seems to be the only concern.
If I’ve learned anything about people through the past decade of politics its that you can never ever assume anything about people being intelligent in any group.
If I’ve learned anything about political discourse it’s that you have to assume that some level of mutual understanding is possible for communication to be worthwhile, and for everything to not devolve into back and forth trolling. So, while you can’t assume intelligence, sure, you also kind of have to.
Plenty seem to think there’s no difference between the two, so they’re either unaware or fascists.
I actually think the the problem is that most here think there is a difference between Biden supporting genocide and Trump supporting genocide.
“There’s literally no difference between the position of Trump and Biden on the Palestinian genocide” - A Very Serious Archomrade
“There’s literally a big difference between supporting a genocide but not wanting to and supporting a genocide and wanting to” - A very serious pugjesus.
“There’s literally a big difference between limited support for a state committing genocide and unlimited support for a state committing genocide.”
Sorry that the concept of More being > than Less is, for some reason, confusing to you.
We could always ask the victims
So given it an election year you could agree that comparing both potential future presidents is a healthy option.
Guess your argument is self-defeating, I’m gonna go for a hike 🤷🌲🌲
In an election year I would agree that agitating complacent liberals into caring about warcrimes is a healthy option
And promising to do one here
Shitty justifications for Biden’s support for genocide I’ve actually seen on lemmy:
In third place: That’s the way we’ve always done it.
In second: We’re worried that the people who chanted “Jews will not replace us” will call us antisemitic.
And now in first place: Trump did it so that makes it ok.