Please start your comments with the following question answered at the top:
“Will you vote for Biden in the 2024 election?” [Y/N]
One side is working to dismantle democracy. The other side is not. If you don’t vote blue you are enabling Republicans to enact Project 2025. You would enable Republicans to take away rights from LGBT people in America. You would enable abortion bans and enable even more of the genocide in Gaza. You would enable Republicans to do all the types of stuff listed in the meme, and they will try.
I am convinced some of the far left that won’t vote for Biden because of the war in Gaza are being influenced by Republicans. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of those people are Republicans trying to get people not to vote for Biden. It may not be an ideal situation, but if you don’t vote for Biden because you think he is handling the war in Gaza horribly, you are doing exactly what the Republicans want you to do. Maybe someday we’ll be able to vote for someone better than him. But for now, you have to understand the reality of our two party system, and deal with it. At the very least, don’t do what the Republicans would want you to do: staying home rather than going out and voting for Biden
For all their many flaws: Democrats leave office without attempting coups when they lose.
Republicans now know they can elect a functional fascist if he has a little popular support. Democratic institutions may not be lucky enough to hold again.
They support candidates in the other party that do attempts coups, just so voters are forced to vote for them instead of the other party. Hilary’s support for Trump in the primaries, should be seen as threat of violence towards the voters and seen as fascism. All the problems with Trump are problems that Democrates are to blame. They are not responsible for other Republicans maybe, but they are responsible for Trump. Trump is a Democrate candidate in the Republican party.
The electoral Congress decides who’s president, though. Why shouldn’t I as a far-leftist vote third party to express my discontentment with a democratic party that only wants to appeal to the right? I’m tired of people telling me Biden is good enough when we had a actual progressive who had a shot just a few years ago. The climate can’t wait, and the Palestinian people certainly can’t. A placid, centrist left in the face of fascism looks useless to me I’m not sorry. Read a fucking history book.
People often say that voting third party is throwing away your vote, but using your vote as a protest like you describe is perfectly valid. Politicians from the major parties do care about how they can appeal to swingable voters, and third parties getting more votes does makes them more influential for future policy. You give up having influence between the two people who actually have a chance in the current election, but realistically you didn’t in the first place if you don’t live in a battleground state.
It’s your vote. Don’t let other people chide you for not spending it on what they think you should. Just use it for a cause that’s worthwhile to you. It’s the people who don’t vote at all that get ignored.
Fuck I needed to hear that, thanks. I just believe a lot of Biden voters are relentlessly optimistic and more than a little naive- there’s a lot of propaganda afoot lately but I think it’s important to talk about my choice too. Obviously we need things like ranked-choice voting for third party votes in this country to make a real difference ASAP but IIRC if a party’s candidate gets even 5% of the vote in a election they qualify for some federal funding. I don’t think it’s impossible to fight for better representation and win in the long run that way.
If you live in a state that’s not contested, sure vote third party if that makes you feel better. But the reality is that not voting blue in any purple state does benefit the party you are less aligned with. So in the case of a leftist it would benefit republicans. I also would love an alternative to a two party system but in THIS election a vote that benefits republicans is a vote for a 1 party system.
It will continue to be that way in every election as long as people resign themselves to voting for either party that has no intention of ever giving you a “fix” to the two party system. Why would a Democrat or a Republican want to get a third party elected? Makes 0 sense. Let’s say you vote for a Democrat… How does that then incentivize them to do anything differently than how they’re already doing it? Your voting for them is tacit approval of their current agenda and party machinations. If they don’t lose or get challenged by something further to the left, they will never move left. They will continue to pander towards centerist voters. Since our Overton window is already right of center with the Democrats basically being center-right and the Republicans being further right, they will only move rightwards with this strategy. They only pander towards centrists because the centrist vote isn’t guaranteed. So in order for them to move leftward, they need to see that the left voter is not a guaranteed vote. The only way to do that at the ballot box is by voting for someone further to the left than the Democratic party. Yes that might mean that Democrats start to lose, but if they do it’s their own damn fault for not appealing to the leftist voter.
You had an actual progressive years ago…yes. You don’t have one this year.
You say the climate can’t wait…so which path is better: 1 - push for net-zero carbon emissions by 2050, invest $2T in green tech and infrastructure, OR 2 - boost oil and gas production, roll back environmental regulations
Palestine can’t wait…which path is better: 1 - publicly support Israel while pressuring them to limit civilian casualties, work towards a cease fire OR 2 - sending ICE to break up pro-Palestinian protests in the US to remove any protesters here illegally, implement ideological screening as part of the immigration process, stoke anti-muslim sentiment here and abroad.
Read a fucking history book? The Repub is using the same power-consolidation strategy as Hitler, there’s Nazis chilling at cpac, LGBTQ folks are being targeted by Republicans across the country, burning books, politicians changing the contents of history curriculum…they say history doesn’t repeat itself but it sure does rhyme. Well, this is straight-up plagiarism.
Yes because there are two paths, only two. Revolution is never a option and we should eat ALLLLL the shit they feed us, thankful for scraps as the fires burn more and more intense. 2050? Do you hear yourself? The damage is already irreparable, that’s far too late. We need action now and a president who hasn’t sold their soul to oil, if such a thing could ever possibly exist. I AM lgbt (trans) and IMHO this is a problem because he’s looking out for conservative billionaires instead. I tell you to look at the history because I agree, the Republicans are Nazis… And a centrist left conceded power to them or had it stolen then too.
Show the viable candidate.
I’m not calling for a violent revolution because I’ve been to a war zone before, and I don’t want that here. That’s the only 3rd path I see for this election cycle. My daughter is also LGBTQIA so it’s personal for me too.
Does there have to be one for joe biden to be bad? I’m sure there’s a least a million individual people who could do the job better. At the end of the day I just don’t see any reason to defend the guy, he seemingly has no real passion or empathy and is leaving a lot in this country undone or worse for the wear whilst letting the right fearmonger incessantly
I mean, there has to be a President…and it’s nearly a statistical guarantee that it will be Trump or Biden unless one of them dies before November. So no, there doesn’t have to be a good candidate for Biden to be a bad one…but he’s the best option we have this time around. Like, if I had 2 options for a house for my kids to live in and 1 is rundown shithole and has lead paint and a busted up foundation and the other a cardboard box under an overpass I’ll take the lead paint while I work for something better…every time.
Well there has to come a point when the second option’s just not worth settling for. That analogy is so spot on it hurts that you can’t see my point.
I tell you to look at the history because I agree, the Republicans are Nazis… And a centrist left conceded power to them or had it stolen then too.
This is precisely why you should vote for Democrats. The Nazi rise to power is a cautionary tale of what happens when both liberals and leftists don’t take the fascist threat seriously. They’ll play off the fascists to try and get one over the other – you’ve pointed this out with the centrist left already, and how they gave him power. But it’s also important to recognize that the leftists weren’t terribly concerned either. “After Hitler, us!”. They foolishly thought the fascists would let there be an “after” and resigned themselves.
There is only one path forward, and I like to explain it in terms of LotR. The dwarves and elves may dislike each other and sometimes be on the verge of war, but as soon as the orcs appear, they work together as one. The fascists warrant our full attention and scorn. We can never make the same mistake of the Germans to let animosity among those left of center take priority over stomping out fascists.
You’re wasting your time, I already laid out why. Biden is Saruman, dude, that’s my take. I hope I’m wrong, but I think you’ll all feel real foolish for defending this guy someday. I hate fascists and that’s why I can’t settle for Biden; IMHO he’s not anti-fascist or progressive enough to put up a good fight. Especially as a individual, thank gods he has some good people on staff but I still look at Biden and think the dude couldn’t manage a pretend waffle house, let alone a country. And his track record as senator constantly gets swept under the rug, too. He voted for segragation ffs
Voting for a third party with no chance of winning takes away a vote from the candidate from the 2 major parties who more closely represents you.
You’re not just doing a protest. If you believe in left values, you’re making it one vote harder for the left to win and one vote easier for the right.
Would you rather the opposition win and we lose democracy or more rights so you can prove your point?
It’s downright selfish imho.
If you believe in left values, you’re making it one vote harder for the left to win and one vote easier for the right.
democrats, especially joe biden, are not on the left
They’re realistically though the closest thing we have. They absolutely do less damage when in office. If you actually want things to get better. We have to stop doing damage or at least slow down the damage first. It’s basic logic.
he wrote the usa patriot act and the crime bill. he stopped student debt from being discharged in bankruptcy. bill clinton pushed “welfare reform”. obama destroyed habeas corpus, murdering a us citizen without trial. kids-in-cages is an obama era policy. obama signed taarp.
i don’t believe they do less damage at all.
I believe that you believe that. But I also know that your belief in that doesn’t make it true. Whether or not one approves of Obama’s actions with drones overseas. Which for the record I don’t. He didn’t end habeas corpus. You are being hyperbolic and disingenuous. Despite my disproval of it. It was a one-time thing with some fairly decent justification behind it. That hasn’t led to any actual policy changes that could be pointed out.
The Patriot Act per Wikipedia
The Patriot Act was written by Jim Sensenbrenner.
Completely unsurprising. You’re lying again. To be fair Biden did claim credit. Stupid liberal doin stupid liberal things.
As far as TARP was concerned. Was there anything they could have realistically done that you would have approved of? No? Then why should we care what you think. Yes, tarp was a bit of a crock of shit. But unfortunately it was the best we were going to get and it was a good thing that we did get it ultimately.
As far as blocking student loan debt from being expunged with bankruptcy. Yes, stupid liberal doing stupid liberal things. However, Biden is also been one of the most active pushing for forgiveness of student loan debt. Could you be any more fake or disingenuous?
what’s Joe Biden lying too?
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4876107/user-clip-joe-biden-wrote-patriot-act
everything they said was right. your accusation of disengenuity is itself bad faith. just because you don’t believe somebody could be to the left of Joe Biden and Barack Obama and Bill Clinton doesn’t make you right.
I’ve about given up. It seems as though most of lemmy is more than happy to smugly let the perfect destroy the good.
I’m sure the additional dead kids in Palestine and Ukraine and very likely most of the middle east and Europe or Russia (depending on how NATO fares after the US leaves) will thank them for voting for RFK Jr or Jill Stein or Mickey Mouse. I don’t think my daughter will thank them when she gets sent to federally mandated “don’t be gay” camp or has to hide who she is for the rest of her life but hey, at least we made a point. Just like vaccines, sometimes I guess we have to suffer as a species to remember things.
Man, I’m jaded today.
You have to remember a lot of the people posting that bs likely aren’t Americans and either have an anti western agenda or are being paid to post divisive shit. It’s annoying because Lemmy is such a small community that these accounts appear wayyyyy more than they really should, so it gives the impression that there’s loads of them, but really they are a minority. Chances are they also have a bunch of smurf accounts so it could literally just be one room of guys posting mountains of bullshit every day.
Or there are lots of genuine American leftists in this space like me that believe the things they’re saying and are trying to argue for a better world or a solution. And then they get met with comments that tell them they’re likely not Americans or they’re anti-West or that they’re getting paid to shill. How do I know you’re not getting paid to post what you said? How do I know you’re not some pro-Democrat smurf account run by some party staffer? But instead of asking, what if I made a comment that just said you probably were?
Arguably they’re more left than the right is left.
Far lefter than anything the repugnicunts are fronting these decades.
Voting for a third party with no chance of winning takes away a vote from the candidate from the 2 major parties who more closely represents you
no it doesn’t. the vote belongs to the voter, and they can give it to any candidate they like. the votes are not owned by the 2 major parties.
Would you rather the opposition win and we lose democracy or more rights so you can prove your point?
i think they’d rather some other candidate win. that’s probably why they’re voting for some other candidate
You’re not just doing a protest.
they’re not calling it a protest, either. they’re calling it a vote.
Liberals aren’t left. I like this take by Phil Ochs
"In every American community, you have varying shades of political opinion. One of the shadiest of these is the liberals. An outspoken group on many subjects. Ten degrees to the left of center in good times, ten degrees to the right of center if it affects them personally.
I cried when they shot Medgar Evers
Tears ran down my spine
And I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy
As though I’d lost a father of mine
But Malcolm X got what was coming
He got what he asked for this time
So love me, love me, love me, I’m a liberal
Get it?"
Nearing on sixty years, and this song never gets old. 🖤
The democrats are worse than the republicans because they’re letting them enact horrible republican policies
Make it make sense
the democrats are fundamentally closer to republicans in status and solidarity than they are to most working class americans that they claim to represent.
True, but irrelevant. You haven’t explained how they’re worse for failing to prevent the republicans from doing stuff
you are interpreting what i said as democrats are worse than republicans. i don’t really see much of a difference in them at this point
Are you blind? How can you not see a difference?
considering AIPAC buys democrats and blackmails up and coming progressives I’d say that the democrats are pretty fascist themselves because AIPAC is a zionist organization furthering the zionist colonial project. our choices are fascism or sugar coated fascism. im not choosing either, thanks.
It’s questionable whether or not IVF is possible in Alabama right now.
You have to be trolling.
I cant even afford IVF so its not possible for me at all. Make sure test tube babies are ok but babies already born in gaza dying can be sacrificed. Gotchu
its not irrelevant. no war but class war. the people that fight and die in war are not the aristocrats and politicians that start them. biden is our enemy as much as trump is
I think Ukrainians and Palestinians would disagree with the notion that “there is no war but class war”. A good salary, food security, and affordable healthcare do not cure racism and fascism.
the difference between ukraine and palestine is that the US and the west have a vested capital interest in ukraine. there is no capital investment in palestine. there is in israel. new yorks state employee pension along with texas’s is secured in israeli bonds. follow the money.
palestinians don’t even have any sort of internationally recognized statehood. they have no sovereignty over themselves. this is about class. i personally don’t have a vested interest in ukraine. but the capitalist ruling class here does. the ukrainian people are victims as much as the palestinians are victims of fascism and racism just as much as the palestinians are but the main difference is that one has the united states backing it along with the entire capitalist class corporate infrastructure. the palestinians don’t have that. and who fights the wars? the rich? nope. the poor, who have nothing to offer as means except their bodies, labor and life. there is solidarity at the top, even amongst geopolitics. i mean they all gather in the same room together and act polite and do pleasantries while we have to grit and bear it in the virtual and physical hellscapes they create.
biden is our enemy as much as trump is
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA
…no
So why are only red states scrambling to destroy worker protections?
he also did fuck all about east palestine and let norfolk southern run the show
When he said he’s the most pro-union president ever, he was right. But he’s still a capitalist so it doesn’t mean shit. A pro-union capitalist will still let corporations get away with negligent homicide.
?
They had to pay for all the remediation, which is not just a slap on the wrist.
the residents of east palestine are all sick and have been getting worse since the event and the subsequent controlled burn off of the chemicals. there are still checmicals in the water but the EPA says its fine. norfolk southern says its fine. the east palestinians are getting sicker and sicker by the day and not getting nearly enough attention.
Looks like I’ll need to look into this more, thanks for the heads up.
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4 of these are just, ‘he failed to do more to undo the Republican’s party’s efforts’.
How is it that republicans are so much more effective than democrats? Before you use the tired excuse of “it’s easier to break things than to make things” tell me why biden can’t break this support of genocide.
What makes you think they are more effective?
Eight years of Obama plus four years of Biden resulted in mediocrity at best, whereas only four years of Trump resulted in teetering on the edge of full-blown fascism.
That’s because Democrats are pathetic cowards, not suited for the current political climate.
as far as the border goes, theres no excuse for continuing trump era immigration policy that was, oh shit, already in place before even trump took office. dems don’t care about the migrants affected by climate change that US actions have caused. kamala literally got on a microphone telling migrants to “not come to america” I mean this is the party saying they are gonna save us from fascism but we gotta make sure we vote. democrats like to say that they are everything the republicans aren’t. maybe they aren’t certain things but they are still classist as fuck and would let us die before their colleagues in DC do. maybe they want to keep trumps border policy cause of the growing republican latinx community which is in part due to inaction from the democrats fumbling over themselves and failing to make any meaningful change
Looks like a little edgy eddie forgot all about violent insurrection ending in several deaths to overthrow a legal election.
Ooopsie
staying home rather than going out and voting for Biden
I’m not going to stay home. I’m going to go to the polling place and leave that part empty on the ballot.
Here’s the bottom line: I cannot bring myself to officially support someone who I admit is an active supporter of genocide. Listen to yourselves. You are literally saying that I should feel bad because I won’t support someone who is actively supporting genocide. They are carpet bombing children, intentionally starving them, denying them medical care, all because of their ethnicity. He is expediting military aid to make sure they can.
I wouldn’t vote for Hitler just because I believed his opponent was worse. The reason I wouldn’t vote for Hitler is because of the genocide. I have to draw a line somewhere. If anything, I should probably have drawn it somewhere before genocide.
BTW, I’m not saying you’re a bad person if you do vote for Biden, or even that I’m somehow better for not. I get it. I just can’t bring myself to do it.
[Edit: Americans, if you’re thinking of replying to me, consider instead or additionally going to Ceasefire Now and writing to your representatives. Maybe if there’s an end to the genocide before November I’ll be willing to vote for Biden.]
You are a bad person if you don’t vote against Trump, who is the actual comparison to Hitler.
I’m voting against Trump and Biden. biden spent 50 years in power making trump possible.
So you are voting for Trump.
no, I’m probably voting for Jill Stein again, but I haven’t stopped donating to cornel west yet
So Trump supporter, got it. Please don’t fucking be registered in Wisconsin.
Be useless somewhere else, thanks. - America
neither of them are trump. I think you have problems with reading comprehension.
and Im not registered in Wisconsin but I am in a swing state that went Obama Obama Trump Biden.
This guy thinks Navalny was a Nazi. He’s just a Russian asset.
this is just ad hominem
It’s more of an argument that your opinion is utter garbage based on your shit judgement.
it’s not an argument at all. they are just attacks on my person rather than my position.
I hope you gain the knowledge to see the bigger picture before November. Allowing Trump to win guarantees that the genocide continues and even grows. Biden, at least, is reasonable and not bloodthirsty. Work with the system so that you can change it. Because the alternative is to burn us all down for your own hubris and lack of awareness.
Allowing Trump to win guarantees that the genocide continues and even grows.
Allowing Biden to win guarantees that the genocide continues and even grows.
Biden, at least, is reasonable and not bloodthirsty.
“Reasonable and not bloodthirsty”: expediting military aid to help the slaughter of children.
Work with the system so that you can change it.
Nothing I am doing is outside the system, and voting for Biden won’t help change the system.
I hope you gain the knowledge to see the bigger picture before November… Because the alternative is to burn us all down for your own hubris and lack of awareness.
Hubris is thinking that because other people disagree with you they must be ignorant and lack awareness. Hubris is thinking that if other people act differently from you, we will all burn down.
Just a heads up that site picked the wrong district for me. The actual house site understands my zip is split between two districts (based on county lines) but this site picked the wrong one.
You don’t consider canceling primaries for a state that habitual votes against party favorite to be dismantling democracy?
Not even a couple cycles after the dnc’s lawyer told a judge primary votes don’t matter and they can appoint anyone and the judge agreed?
They’re not equally bad, but at this point it’s hard to call either democratic
Which will depress turnout, even if the people trying to earn you still vote for Biden
so, out of curiosity, what has biden accomplished (or any one, really,) done to stop any of that?
so far, the only thing he’s successfully achieved is… increasing the DoJ’s focus on domestic terrorism. which, is something, I guess.
After three years of this shit getting worse; why should we believe Biden is able to actually stop it and protect our democracy? it took him two and half, or so, years for him to get the DoJ to assign Jack Smith to investigate trump for Jan 6, and documents, and stuff.
Under Biden we have student load forgiveness, we have a better ftc that actually investigates shit, we had an actual climate deal, and we have support for Ukraine, and have an investigation on trump. With trump we have none of that. We get total facism.
Also voting and protest/revolt are not mutually exclusive. At least under Biden we might not have to become a full on fascist state in the next year.
Under Biden we have student load forgiveness, we have a better ftc that actually investigates shit, we had an actual climate deal, and we have support for Ukraine, and have an investigation on trump. With trump we have none of that. We get total facism.
Most of the Climate deals are corporate subsidies for things they were going to do anyhow… eventually.
As good as the student debt forgiveness is… all of those loans that are being forgiven are loans that should have been forgiven ages ago. There’s zero fraud investigation on that. just a “oops. we let you get scammed for years.” (sometimes even decades.). Not exactly a brilliant dipslay of … governance.Right now we don’t even have support for ukraine. so much for that much-vaunted bipartisanship that was one of his key sales pitches.
Also voting and protest/revolt are not mutually exclusive. At least under Biden we might not have to become a full on fascist state in the next year.
you do realize that prevailing rhetoric right now is “Don’t protest Biden now… let him win the election first!”, right? which is why I’m being down voted when I call Gaza Genocide.
I don’t think Biden can protect american democracy. I don’t think he has that ability.
“so much for that much-vaunted bipartisanship”
whose fault is that?
If Biden can take credit for the infrastructure act getting passed, he can take credit for everything the house does. Or doesn’t do.
(Joking, mostly. But remember his campaign? A major selling point is working across the aisle to get shit done. Seems to have been a niave argument.)
So, he’s done nothing to actually protect american democracy. The argument being made by the OC is that he’s protecting American democracy. Where’s that?
your source is mostly about stuff that Biden has fuck all to do with (crime is state and local; Economics, fed and treasury;) and the stuff he does… he’s not done all that much (immigration?) or has gone the wrong way (oil)
bOtH sIdEs
One side is working to dismantle democracy. The other side is not.
Both “sides” don’t give a fuck about people or democracy, both the red and blue party support dictatorships around the world, genocide and unjust wars. If you vote red or blue you are giving your vote to corrupted criminal murderers with blood on their hands. If i don’t support Stalin in WWII it does not mean that i’m supporting Hitler, the choice is yours! Not voting for red or blue does NOT mean voting for the other color.
Wait… You were against the allies in World War II? Are you one of those Charles Lindbergh leftists I keep hearing about?
Are you pro russia?
You can be against Hitler and Stalin at the same time they were both awful dictatiors. Life it’s not a football match you don’t have to pick a side
Okay, Lindbergh Leftist. Yes, I would have been pro Soviet Union during World War II because Nazis are not just worse, but far worse.
You can be against Hitler and Stalin at the same time, is this to hard to gasp for you?
Yeah, like Charles Lindbergh who was against participating on either side.
I wonder what his political beliefs were.
The far left isn’t voting because electoral politics are a distraction from actual revolutionary action. While y’all are too busy choosing the lesser evil that will eventually “compromise” with the worse evil because “we need a strong republican party” the far left is taking more direct approaches.
One side is working to dismantle democracy. The other side is not.
WHAT DEMOCRACY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? The one that enables your country to fund a genocide across the globe DESPITE the outrage of it’s citizens and the… WHOLE WORLD?
You would enable Republicans to take away rights from LGBT people in America. You would enable abortion bans and enable even more of the genocide in Gaza.
How you can enable MORE genocide? People are finite, you either commit genocide, or you don’t. Or you think with your tiny fucking libbrain that SMALL GENOCIDE is totally okay?
But for now, you have to understand the reality of our two party system, and deal with it.
Yeah, sure, do not try to change anything, just deal with our shitty system because there’s no other option. Jesus fucking Christ…
Bullshit. Democrats have made their disdain for democracy absolutely clear by preventing other candidates from even getting on the ballot in the primaries. I’m not defending Trump, but if Biden loses, he has only himself and the other ghouls in the Democratic party to blame. You can’t run on protecting democracy while simultaneously sabotaging it.
It’s not on the voters to hold their noses and vote for someone who should probably be in a nursing home and very likely won’t live long enough to finish his second term. It’s on the Democratic party to allow candidates people want to vote for to participate. All this blaming of voters for wanting to sit this one out or vote third party is just so much bootlicking of the establishment.
If my choices are veiled fascism or open fascism I’d rather have it out in the open so we can fight it.
Well good thing those aren’t your choices.
If we’re willing to condone genocide by an ally then we’re willing to condone one here. And the reason it’s called veiled is because they have the same goals, they’re just shy about saying it out loud.
You realize that if Biden were legitimately committing genocide in Palestine, America would officially be at war with Palestine… right?
Please tell us that you understand this. It’s important that we all know you understand this.
You do realize how responsibility works? Because down your illogical rabbit hole lies this future statement, “If Biden isn’t personally shooting them is he really responsible for the genocide?”
The answer to your question lies in the madness of de facto versus de jure. De Facto, we are and this is why the Houthis are going after our ships. Just like the Germans did in both world wars. De Jure, there is no war in Ba Sing Se.
So… we’re resorting to made up future statements now?
Pathetic.
He’s not committing genocide, he’s only sending billions in support of genocide. I understand completely.
I’ve got news for you, aiding and abaiting genocide is also a crime. And in fact member states of the UN have an obligation to pursue the enforcement of the prohibition of genocide. The mere vetos of the US on UN resolutions for cease fire should be enough. We won’t even talk about the weapons trade.
I’ve got news for you- he’s not doing that either. Try looking into it. Many people here and in other communities have explained this to you people. Mods have even gotten involved providing proof to dispute the claims.
I’m not going to argue about it. You’re wrong.
Cause that worked so well in Germany.
Voting for the guys that gave Hitler a position of power for temporary political gain sure as hell didn’t work.
In 2020, 80 million didn’t vote. How do you fix that?
Man I just want to vote for a better candidate not strategically vote so the worst one doesn’t get elected. Why tf isn’t Trump in jail yet
Trump will for sure encourage a true genocode of palestine. remember the kurds he abandoned to Syria/Putin? remember the muslim ban?
I hear you, but fucking over the Kurds after they stuck their neck out to ally with us has been an American pastime for decades.
This is the insane part to me. Everyone is just jumping on the opportunity to cheapen the word genocide, so when Trump gets a roll, I guess we will have to come up with a whole new word. Super genocide? Genocide, but not like that other one? Genocide with seven pieces of flair?
A true genocide? 30,000 dead and everyone at risk of starvation not enough for you? I’d rather be banned than genocided.
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This is unsubstantiated antisemitism, and genocide-apologia. Arabs are justified in fighting the people who colonize them and expel them from their lands.
“There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” —David Ben-Gurion
“Agreement with Arabs Impossible at present… Zionism Must Go Forward” - Jabotinsky, 1923
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.” — David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
And just in case you justify the genocide on them being “foreign” Arabs, Ben Gurion had this to say as quoted by Shlomo Sand:
“The fellahin are not descendants of the Arab conquerors, who captured Eretz Israel and Syria in the seventh century CE. The Arab victors did not destroy the agricultural population they found in the country. They expelled only the alien Byzantine rulers, and did not touch the local population. Nor did the Arabs go in for settlement. Even in their former habitations the Arabs did not engage in farming…their whole interest in the new countries was political, religious and material: to rule, to propagate Islam, and to collect taxes…the Jewish farmer, like any other farmer, was not easily torn from his soil…Despite the repression and suffering the rural population remained unchanged.”
arabs own ALL the equatorial lands from India to Morocco. Anyone else is a target of jihad. Colonialism is the laziest excuse. arabs simply love retrograde theocracy
Dude, Bush abandoned the Kurds; Clinton ignored them; Bush Junior used and abandoned them again; Obama did it a third time; Then Trump did it.
Hell I wouldn’t even be surprised if the US abandoned them again. They aren’t. They told us in 2003 that our leaders would abandon them but they were thankful for the temporary help.
Not sure if a true genocode is occurring now, or not…
Wtf you saying? A lot more happened in syria under trump than before him. Barack was wasting time allowing isis to grow. And once isis was defeated america pulled out. Probably one of the few good news that came out of syria. What did biden do? he put sanctions that were supposed to hurt assad, but instead hurt the people who can barely afford to eat.
“Will you vote for Biden in the 2024 election?” Yes
Maybe I’m just getting old, but I have no problem seeing the vast difference between the two choices we’re going to be given in November.
No matter how much the children in the room piss and moan, there are realistically only two choices - 3rd party candidates only exist to spoil it for whomever they’re ideologically closer to of the two “real” candidates. Furthermore, Biden has turned out better than I expected - and I’m a Bernie Sanders kinda guy!
It’s crazy how much energy is already being put into blaming voters for being turned off by an undesirable politician.
Usually this happens after an election.
Biden supporting genocide WILL disengage voters regardless of how bad the other guy is. His decision to support genocide will hand Trump the presidency on a silver platter.
If someone kicks their dog, the dog responds by biting the fucker, and the fucker responds to the bite by giving the dog away to some other fucker who kicks the dog even more… are we really going to criticize the dog for biting fucker#1? How about don’t kick the god damned dog??
Trump supports the Isreali genocide and also wants to do the same thing at home with immigrants.
no amount of genocide is acceptable
Other than giving more genocide a free pass, what are your plans to reduce genocide?
I’m not giving genocide a free pass.
Enjoy the straw man
it’s not a strawman
Do you even know what that term means?
No I just use it blindly because I’m a moron who votes third party
Biden supporting genocide WILL disengage voters regardless of how bad the other guy is. His decision to support genocide will hand Trump the presidency on a silver platter.
Trump supports the genocide more. And locally, he wants to throw migrants into camps. See the bigger picture
You legit just said “Trump supports the genocide more", and then probably felt like you had moral superiority in the argument. Do you understand how insane it is that you’re arguing over who is more genocidy?
It doesn’t really matter who you vote for, because if the US is at the point where they’re voting based on who is going to kill less people, then the country is already a fascist state and all hope of turning that around is lost. You’re all just fighting over what flavor of fascism you get.
Do you know how braindead it is to treat things as equal which are vastly, vastly different, in consequential ways that will end in large amounts of human suffering?
It matters more than ever in history who you vote for. You are the exact type of turd that inspired this post.
I’m not the sort of person that inspired this post. The type that inspired this post is the type that thinks democrats are as bad as republicans. I don’t think that goes far enough. I’m the sort who thinks the US government is a profoundly evil institution, the continuation of which is the sole cause of untold suffering elsewhere in the world. I’m hoping Trump wins, because it will destabilize the entire nation and hopefully be the push we need to lose our position as the global superpower. If Americans need to suffer for that to happen, then perhaps it will be a learning experience on what it’s been like living in Latin America and the Middle East for the past several decades while the US government toys with weaker nations for profit.
So don’t confuse me with those sorts of people. They just want democrats to lose. I want America to burn. We are not the same.
“I’m not a mental sloth, I’m actually a passive terrorist”
Listen, nothing you could possibly say to me is going to offend me, because I don’t know you and I don’t care what you think. You’re just getting yourself worked up, so why don’t you do yourself a favor and just stop replying to me.
Speaking of being a “passive terrorist”, if anyone else needs help setting up encrypted anonymous comms for supporting their direct action, hit me up. I’d be more than happy to teach anyone ways to avoid government surveillance.
All of you society destroyers think responses are about you. They are about passersby who need to understand what you are.
You are far worse than the shitbags I lumped you in with. My bad.
Noooooo, gus fring accelerationists are not allowed as part of my libtard political worldview! Nooooo! America can still be saved! Think of the children! Think of the people who are suffering in already pretty bad circumstances that can’t get much worse! Noooo! My middle class purview and perspective is making me think that this is all still salvageable as everyone around me dies and suffers and I can’t see it! Noooo!
And locally, he wants to throw migrants into camps.
Biden is doing that right now…
So did Obama…
And trump does not support Israel genocide more than Biden. trump would want something out of it. Biden needs nothing in return
This is the danger of running Biden. As bad as trump is, Biden is also shitty.
We could have locked in a dem.win by running a halfway decent candidate that isn’t two decades past retirement age.
bOtH sIdEs
And trump does not support Israel genocide more than Biden. trump would want something out of it. Biden needs nothing in return
You’re delusional. Get some help and start searching for a way back to reality.
What?
Do you need a source for Biden saying he’s a Zionist and has unconditional support for Israel no matter what happens in the future?
Or did you mean you want a source for trump supporting anything that privately enriches himself or makes him feel good about himself?
Biden and trump supporters are too similar these days it’s hard to tell who I pissed off.
Do you need a source for Trump being a Hitler worshipping piece of shit who wants to kill everyone that isn’t white?
Well at least I know you’re a Biden supporter now instead of a trump supporter.
Have a nice life, hope it gets better.
If you meant that, you wouldn’t be trying to help Trump win.
“voters are stupid, don’t blame them for that.”
Y
Don’t worry, a bunch of fucking idiots think not voting is the solution, turning what could just be 4 more years of “definitely not good” into a toss up with “holy fucking shit I didn’t know it could be this bad”.
The vapid motherfuckers doing everything based on principles without taking reality into account is how the left always seems to get so little done.
Aaron Bushnell was a moron. He should have waited to self-immolate after the election, that way he could still vote for Biden.
Obvious /s.
Don’t forget getting rid of Medicare, raising taxes on people making under $90,000 a year, dismantling the IRS, and just full on fascism.
Weird how that makes it seem like the people trying to make things better are the ones responsible for making things worse. It’s almost like the whole system was set up to give us two horrible choices and make us think the lesser evil is actually good. That way we won’t try to really fix anything ourselves and just get angry at the people who do for “wasting their votes”. No hate to anyone who thinks this way just sharing another perspective.
I’d rather have Biden than Trump. But I’d rather have Dr. Cornell West or Claudia de la Cruz more than either of them by a lot. Hell I’m probably going to vote for one of them. I live in Maryland, a blue state that’ll go to Biden anyway. If anybody has a problem with that, I don’t care 🤷
Lol fuck you and this whole position. “The other guy is worse” will not get you the votes you want. That was pretty much the entire party position in 2016 and we saw what happened. Worried about losing votes because of bidens deplorable enabling of Israel? Then get another fucking candidate who hasn’t been supporting war crimes for the last year.
Even if there was another candidate, I 100% guarantee you that they would still support Israel. It’s not a candidate issue, it’s an American policy issue, one that can only really change by getting new blood in politics. And let’s face it, it’s not exactly like new blood is lining up to get into politics.
So… Fuck your single-voter minded argument and look at the bigger picture.
things biden has done fuck all on:
- voter rights
- protecting civil liberties.
- equality.
- get private equity out of elections
- stop israel. (and yes, he can at least change course here.)
- abortion access. I mean, seriously. They’re saying embryos are kids now.
Things he’s not done enough on:
- Domestic Terrorism. Literally all he did was direct a useless AG and DoJ to pursue it more. That’s it.
- consequences for Jan 6 to the leadership behind it- that is Trump and Trump’s inner circle.
- police reform.
- Climate change (seriously, most of this is just corpo subsidies.)
- Aid to Ukraine
I mean, are there really any issues he’s actually peformed to expectations on?
I agree you have it bad there. Unfortunately in politics we have to vote for the least bad option. On all the issue listed though, a lot is due to congress, mainly because people decided that republicans and their idea of not governing is preferable to democrats. Personally, I know the options are very bad, but I the sliver of democracy is still worth it to try to preserve in order to have the option to influence the next time around.
Interesting Points. However:
Will you vote for Biden then?
[Y/N]
I just want to say this “litmus test” bullshit you’ve presented is close to the grossest thing I’ve seen on here. People have fought and died for the right to have private votes, your “However” shows prejudice and the dangers of political identities corrupting normal conversations.
A right you will loose, if you dont vote Biden this time and let Trump win.
Political Identities corrupting a conversation? There is an open fascist running for president, and some people STILL wont stand in the way of that.
There is no normal conversation anymore!
You do realize the irony in saying I will lose a right if I don’t give up the right to my vote? I wish everyone would just be honest about this conversation, if you presented it as continued Oligarchy vs Fascism you might actually persuade some people instead of pretending it’s still a democracy.
But regardless, you asking people to present their voting preference for how you conduct a conversation is just insulting and dangerous. This is when extreme ideologies look identical and I can’t tell which side people are presenting.
Oh the “present your voting choice” is an effective-filter for trolls who want to both-sides-bad the argument presented. And to trigger some guys who REALLY dont understand that voting is often, sadly, a strategic choice that does not benefit from high-minded morals in the face of Fascism.
You can go around on other comment section and ask them if they will vote for Biden or not. And see how people choke on their pride, begging to be the smuggest guy on the train…
It also cuts straight to the point: You either vote for the bad choice, Biden in this case, to delay fascism and give Democracy more time to live. Or the GOP more to crumble.
Or you dont. And loose it all.
Call it informed-simplicity if you will, because sometimes the world is just that in the end. Simple.
You vote for the lesser evil at the ballot. Always.
And after that duty is done, you do the REAL political work by organising. Always.
No change will be made at the ballot. That is just to buy us more time to unionise, educate comming generations and build communities.
Things in either list Biden has the ability to directly influence policy on:
And yet, all that… he promised.
And yet I’m sure you would happily throw tons of those up as a reason Trump must stay out of office. Which is it?
It’s almost as if structural flaws in our government mean Trump would have a more cooperative congress and the willingness to outright ignore the rule of law to accomplish his goals…
It’s almost as if the Democrats want to accomplish nothing while claiming they’re doing everything they can.
And let’s not act like the presidential candidate has no effect on the races themselves. Biden being a milquetoast neoliberal head of the party was not what we needed to retake Congress. And it’s not going to help in 2024 either. God, Democratic apologists are the worst hypocrites.
“You have to vote for Biden or Trump will do all of these things!”
“Biden is bad on those issues too.”
“Something something it doesn’t count for him.”
Fuck you for enabling fascism, coward.
Peak murrican geopolitica analysis
…said the person enabling genocide
It’s not my first choice, but I’ll take enabling genocide over enabling genocide, Russian imperialism, the collapse of NATO, the elimination of reproductive and marriage rights, the spread of homophobia, and the fall of democracy in the US.
This shouldn’t even be a fucking choice for anyone with half a brain. Must be nice to say this from a position of privilege where you apparently don’t have as much to lose, as long as you can live in the egocentric fantasy that your vote helped save Palestine as if Israel cares at all what the results of the US election are.
All those justifications for genocide and your seething anger that anyone would dare to question you make you sound exactly like a trump voter. You’re not helping. It doesn’t look like you’re even trying to.
The fuck are you even on about? This isn’t opinion, this is pragmatism.
If a politician wanted to change the rules of math to say that 1*1=2, you’d still be out there telling dissenters that their close-minded stance makes them sound irrational, wouldn’t you?
“Here’s why an ongoing genocide is actually good” isn’t pragmatism. I don’t have a word for what it is, but it’s bad. Very bad. Genocidally bad. No metaphors or scenarios or math equations are going to make it good. Your argument is shit and if it’s all you’ve got then the best thing you can do for Biden is shut the fuck up and vote for him, because you’re not helping.
So how do you suppose abstaining helps stop the genocide?
Are you honestly lucky enough to have nothing else on the line in this election worth fighting for? Wish I was in your shoes if so.
You should know: Comments like this push more people further from your cause.
I’ve been yelling Blue no Matter Who since 2020 (The GOP is domestically compromised, if you don’t see, you’re either not paying attention or wearing rose colored glasses) and this hateful “fuck you coward” shit is even making me consider noping out. I won’t, but you guys are not helping at all.
NO ONE is going to come away from an interaction like this and go “Wow… Ya know I was on the fence, but I guess I am being a bit of a pussy cuck. I’ll vote for Joe Biden to save democracy”
If your aim is to get people on board, you have to start talking to them as intelligent adults.
I agree, but anyone who opens a conversation with “fuck you” is not worth engaging with beyond responding in kind. They either know they’re wrong and have nothing better to say, or their mind is made up and attempting to convince them otherwise is a waste of time.
And I say that with regards to myself, as well. If someone wants to spread bigotry and hate, I don’t owe them civility and I am not there to embrace their perspective, so “fuck you” seems like the appropriate opener at times.
Do you want the better guy or the worse guy? Seriously, it’s an easy choice, and at least for me, it’s not the worse guy. He’s worse. Why would you want the worse guy?
It’s even simpler than that, they’re being selfish. They want to be able to pat themselves on the back for being Ultra Pure™ by not voting for anyone. They’re Above It All™
Man, some wild assumptions here. Who said I don’t intend to vote? I just don’t think Biden is the horse the party should keep backing. It’s insane to me that he’s going for another term, and that the party isn’t demanding other candidates to be on the ballot. The Democratic party has turned into the old conservatives now that extremism has overtaken the Republicans, and it fucking sucks that there isn’t a third choice. We shouldn’t be rolling over and accepting that because “that’s just how the system is”. We shouldn’t be pretending Biden is the best we can do.
I shouldn’t have assumed your specific position, but in general that language comes from someone who behaves as I mentioned. We don’t have a choice right now, we don’t have that luxury. I do agree that we should have an option, but in general parties don’t run opposition to the incumbent because they know the incumbent won once, people generally are accepting of the individual as they reflect on their performance (as long as it isn’t abhorrent) and so tossing in a “new” candidate comes with too many risks. Maybe the primary challenger wins within the party, but then the moderates or nevertrumpers can’t stomach the new choice and sit it out or worse go back to Trump (or whoever). That’s pretty much why we generally don’t see primary challenges between terms of a president.
Based
“Will you vote for Biden in the 2024 election?” Yes
For anybody saying no, I would like to know what radical action we were all supposed to have taken in 2021 to the present that would have fixed America, or how revolution will be easier under a Trump presidency, or what specific plan the vast majority of leftists and progressives wants to enact
Let’s vote against someone meh for not being left enough, there will surely be no negative consequences to voting against someone for not being left enough
“Being meh” is my new favorite definition of “enabling genocide”
Adolf Hitler was pretty meh
Milosovich was meh.
“But voting doesnt matter! Billions of dollars are spent and countless bills are passed to disenfranchise voters, but my opinion is def not bought and paid for by the very same to help enact their bullshit!”
refusing to vote is not giving trump anything. y’all keep misrepresenting the sentiment. the vote does not matter. when you vocalize that you intend to not vote for anyone in the ruling class, whether they are blue or red that really gets everyone talking and saying that you are handing the presidency to the opponent. as if the electoral college didn’t do that when trump lost the popular vote to hillary. yes please tell me how i, one person on federated decentralized platform with no corporate sponsorship, am undermining democracy when we don’t really have one that gives us real opportunity to control the government.
You’re undermining democracy by NOT VOTING LMAO
It’s literally that simple. The electoral college isn’t a conspiracy theory, it just weights votes slightly unequally. Your vote is still counted and if more than like 55% of the country votes for someone they’re getting in. I don’t get what’s so hard to understand about this. We’re not North Korea, use your damn votes people!
you’re right that its not a conspiracy theory, it is simply a conspiracy.
Ok and this prevents you from voting how?
It doesn’t. That’s not the only reason I’m not voting. I’m not voting because it concerns democrats that I am not voting for them. Maybe instead of being concerned with someone that is using their constitutionally protected right to choose not to vote, you should listen to the criticisms and take a stand. Maybe if democrats fulfilled their promises, there wouldn’t be growing discontent with them.
I’m not voting because it concerns democrats that I am not voting for them
Wouldn’t calling your representatives and notifying them of your dislike of their policies be even more effective?
constitutionally protected right to choose not to vote
If you have to defend your actions by saying “uhhh ok but it’s not illegal to do that” then your reasoning is bad and your actions are likely bad too
Maybe if democrats fulfilled their promises
Kind of hard to do when we’re only half of the government. I’ll let you know next time we have a supermajority (admittedly we could have done more last time we had one).
Wouldn’t calling your representatives and notifying them of your dislike of their policies be even more effective?
What makes you think i havent? All you get is an answering machine anyway
If you have to defend your actions by saying “uhhh ok but it’s not illegal to do that” then your reasoning is bad and your actions are likely bad too
y’all are acting like im committing a cardinal sin by not participating in complying with a genocide
Kind of hard to do when we’re only half of the government
and how many more times will they lead us on. if they know that they cant fulfill it, why say it?? they constantly say we will do this, and this and that and then we get nothing but excuses citing conditions or factors that were well in play before they got the vote. intentional false advertising
Not all idiots support Trump. Honestly, this is a good reminder. Apathy is still going strong and in lieu of truly understanding a system some folks would rather listen to an obviously broken gps and hard left straight down a boat ramp and into a lake.
This is so tiring constantly arguing with people like you. It’s always either “Trump is the worst! I’m not voting for Biden!” or some conviction that they cannot enact change where their only attempts to create change is yelling loudly about how unfair things are with absolutely zero action. I’ll give Republicans this much: As often as they disagree and argue with one another, come voting time they sure as hell put aside those differences and agree to support one person. Meanwhile the rest of us continue to argue about things like “Oh man, Biden has kept like two dozen promises and is working on keeping even more but oh geez he broke a handful. Just the worst person ever. I’m gonna abstain from voting!” and then have the gall to say they’re making the right choice.
Like…fuck. Maybe it’s time we stopped being so nice. Literal fascism is knocking and people’s lives are at stake here in the U.S.; people are dying here too. Our apathy and willingness to turn a blind eye through patience and understanding has gotten us to this position. How much more before it finally runs out.
Sorry, I’m just so damned concerned. This is a pivotal time. We can have a chance to fix things, we just need to come together for once. Fuck.
Sorry, I’m just so damned concerned. This is a pivotal time. We can have a chance to fix things, we just need to come together for once. Fuck.
Voting for biden will not fix things. It didn’t fix anything from trumps presidency or before. Trans people are still losing their rights and Biden has done fuck all. The democrats always say that they can fix things then make up excuses as to why they couldn’t when they knew they couldn’t to begin with. Biden is a zionist, an ideology that is pretty fascist. Fascism has always been an amerikan quality. This used to be an apartheid state and some would argue it still is. this isnt just about biden. this is about countless times we have been given a controlled choice. democrats don’t do shit when you vote for them. they certainly seem pretty worried now, maybe it will light a fire under their ass to do what needs to be done. Until then, I see no reason to vote either way. republicans are fucked and democrats are not an actual solution.
In the simplest terms: Biden may not be the answer. Trump and the GOP is a problem. With Biden holding another 4 years we, the people, can step up. We’ll have that chance. If Trump and the GOP gain hold we probably won’t, not without something else pushing that change.
A chance. That’s what we need. I feel people are at that point. You see it everywhere. The barely contained anger and frustration from the Left. With Trump we aren’t likely to get that chance. With Biden we have four years to stop talking and start standing.
Ive been hearing this same line my whole life. “This is the most important election! And this one too, and that one, and the next one!” Im fighting right now by refusing to vote for either. Look how effective it is at getting them to squirm. They are paying attention to people refusing to vote, not yall that they already have in the bag. We’ve had four years of biden and we’ve been fighting for him tondo what he said he would. He hasnt. So where the fuck have you been? Sounds like sitting on your ass waiting for others to start the fight. Its already rolling, shut up and get in
“So you think its an absolute, i will use this to my advantage in negotiations to change my behavior”
You mean if you live in a battleground state. Everyone else lives in a state that would require a massive change.
Oh look we’re supporting a genocide. I wonder if that’s enough to do it?
Voting republican won’t change that, in fact it will make that and several other issues much worse. We need reform but we can’t achieve that if we don’t have a democracy.
Nobody said they’re voting Republican. This is very specifically about Gaza.
“Battleground state” means the vote could go either way. Anyways, how do we effect Gaza as American citizens again? I think it starts with a “v”…
Oh so now you’re only worried about battleground state voters staying home?
Well fun fact, in several of those states the key demographic is Arab Americans. So I again wonder what one thing Biden could do to earn their vote?
democracy
Western democracy originated in ancient Greece. This political system granted democratic citizenship to free men, while excluding slaves, foreigners and women from political participation. In virtually all democratic governments throughout ancient and modern history, this was what democracy meant. An elite class of free men made all the decisions for everyone. Before Athens adopted democracy, aristocrats ruled society, so “rule by the people”, or the idea of a government controlled (in theory) by all its (free) male citizens instead of a few wealthy families seemed like a good deal. But really it was just a new iteration of Aristocracy rule rather than the revolution it’s painted as. The rich still rule society by feeding voters carefully constructed propaganda and keeping everyone poor, overworked and desperate to be granted basic needs by the state.
In democracies today, only legal citizens of a country are granted democracy. In a lot of countries, people who have been convicted of a “crime” are denied the right to vote, regardless of how long ago they served their sentence. In the US, this is used to deny voting rights to minority groups, who make up a large proportion of the prison population.
In some societies only a small minority group are allowed to participate in the democracy. In Apartheid South Africa, the minority group (European settlers) granted themselves democracy and excluded the native majority, using democracy to deprive the native population of the rights granted to European settlers. Anarchy, of course, is an absence of government; of rulers. Democracy aims for the individual to be governed, ruled, controlled by others.
Yeah, and being held accountable by other people making laws serves a very important purpose. Anarchy doesn’t work because you’re calling on individual people to enforce the vague collective notion of “wrongdoing”, which can trigger a sort of prisoner’s dilemma about enforcement.
you’re undermining democracy
Democracy has forever been synonymous with class based societies. It has split entire countries into two barely-distinctive political parties (conservative and “progressive”) that are nevertheless permanently at each other’s throats. Even in its most libertarian-friendly forms, it has constantly failed to avert hierarchy, coercion and the authoritarian machinations of majority-groups.
Despite the issues IMO the way to fix democracy is not less democracy.
the problem is democracy: Western democracy originated in ancient Greece. This political system granted democratic citizenship to free men, while excluding slaves, foreigners and women from political participation. In virtually all democratic governments throughout ancient and modern history, this was what democracy meant. An elite class of free men made all the decisions for everyone. Before Athens adopted democracy, aristocrats ruled society, so “rule by the people”, or the idea of a government controlled (in theory) by all its (free) male citizens instead of a few wealthy families seemed like a good deal. But really it was just a new iteration of Aristocracy rule rather than the revolution it’s painted as. The rich still rule society by feeding voters carefully constructed propaganda and keeping everyone poor, overworked and desperate to be granted basic needs by the state.
In democracies today, only legal citizens of a country are granted democracy. In a lot of countries, people who have been convicted of a “crime” are denied the right to vote, regardless of how long ago they served their sentence. In the US, this is used to deny voting rights to minority groups, who make up a large proportion of the prison population.
In some societies only a small minority group are allowed to participate in the democracy. In Apartheid South Africa, the minority group (European settlers) granted themselves democracy and excluded the native majority, using democracy to deprive the native population of the rights granted to European settlers. Anarchy, of course, is an absence of government; of rulers. Democracy aims for the individual to be governed, ruled, controlled by others.
The rich still rule society by feeding voters carefully constructed propaganda and keeping everyone poor, overworked and desperate to be granted basic needs by the state.
Democracy requires an educated and inforned electorate. And that is what the political rhetoric and lawyers have destroyed.
Keeping everyone dependant on their shrinking wallet makes them easily led, aka Vote your pocketbook, into defunding education, libraries,etc.
The rich still can afford to pay for quality privatized versions of these things.
Democracy requires an educated and inforned electorate
Only enough to understand the propaganda that they are fed. Its amazing how little higher educated people know about neurodivergence, LGBTQ+ experiences, class consciousness, indigenous cultures and lifeways.
We live in an ultra-capitalist society operating on the ableism, classism, racism and sexism that defined ancient grecian and roman politics.
you’re right that people are voting against their interests, both dems and republicans
the vote with your wallet rhetoric sounds good when you realize that you have less dollars than a multinational corporation. so we’ve tied political and civil freedom to the ability to pay for what you think they should be? that means the rich will always win. and this vote with your wallet rhetoric is parroted by people making less than 50k/year because they think being an american libertarian is edgy
It’s crazy how you can comment something this logical and well thought out, and the next comment will be; “but if you don’t vote for Biden, Trump will be worse.”
Genocide is not meh. If we don’t turn around on this then we aren’t the US anymore. I’m not going to play shades of moral blackness. I was willing to play with grey shades because there was a possibility of moving this back to actually helping people instead of exploiting them. But now we’re exploiting the lives of poor starving people for donor money.
“Will you vote for Biden in the 2024 election?”
Primary? No. General? If he makes it.
The current electoral phase is the primary, which is what those voting ‘Uncommitted’ are involved in. You have to understand this the first, last, and only phase in the presidential election cycle where voters have ANY say, even the possibility of it, on influencing executive policy for their party.
Anyone thinking criticism of Biden in a primary is the same as supporting Trump in the general is delusional and demonstrably doesn’t understand the electoral process for president.
Are people like OP really concerned about Dean Philips or Marianne Williamson becoming the democratic party candidate? Because that is the phase we are in: internal party primary elections. People are trying to shape the Democratic Party platform through a democratic process and there is all this blowback that amounts only to “B-but Trump!”
That perspective relies on a misunderstanding, willful or not, of American Presidential election cycles.
Though I still am hedging my bets that at least one of the general election candidates keels over in the next 6 months.
“Will you vote for Biden in the 2024 election?” [Y/N]
none of your fucking business. and before you accuse me of fascism, remember it’s the fascists and authoritarians who demand blind loyalty and vote checks.
I can of course recognize trump is worse than biden. I can also recognize that Biden is still bad, and call that bullshit out. Perhaps Biden should maybe recognize; like any human with a fucking soul that genocide is fucking bad and maybe do what he can to stop it. So far; all we have is vague promises and platitudes while sending increasing amounts of money and arms to the genocidal dickfucks.
congratulations, you provoked me. troll.
I dont need your hate. But Democracy needs your vote.
Torch him for Palestine all you want, AFTER Trump is in the ground and the GOP crumbles.
If you cant swallow your pride, then you deserve MAGAmerica.
Don’t negotiate till you have zero leverage!
Neoliberals sure are something else, you all should really help Americans and open car dealerships with those negotiating skills.
If your idea of negotiation is the equivalent of drilling holes in the boat while we are all at sea, you are a terrible negotiator.
The primary is the only time to drag Biden left, and even then it’s likely he ignores his campaign promises if elected.
Telling people they can’t even do that, is just going to make them give up and become disengaged.
Biden isn’t a strong enough candidate to do that, he barely beat trump last election. He had plenty of popular votes extra, but because the electoral college is a thing, if trump got like 30k more votes in 3 states, Trump would have won again. Biden needs every vote he can get.
Pretending everything will be fine so we don’t have to do anything doesn’t work for climate change and it doesn’t work for elections.
No one is pretending everything is fine, we are just in triage mode for democracy and are trying to save the patient first because the alternative is massively worse.
By slapping the patient and saying they need to lose weight before they treat their bullet wounds.
Everything is mismatched responses and no one listens to anything but themselves and their echo chamber anymore.It’s not bad advice to vote for the obviously not fascist wannabe but it’s not gonna be the best advice when we can see his polling numbers are fucking atrocious, and the beatings aren’t getting those numbers back up. No one is just talking to the American people and asking what their symptoms are and building a plan from it. It’s all just assumed but no one seems to be actually on the same page.
The difference is I’m talking about how to save American democracy…
And you’re talking about how to trick people into voting for the oldest person to ever run for US President.
Biden only has to be the candidate because the DNC says so. They’re not good at picking candidates if you haven’t noticed. Because they care more about donors and fancy fundraisers than getting votes.
By making sure the one candidate that has the support of the most anti democratic forces is elected.
Bold strategy, Cotton…
I love how your ilk just wipes away minor details like “discouraging voters from voting by lying and saying Biden and trump are similar is not only not destructive, it actually is good”
Dunno, if I were on a boat with someone trying to sink it I’d probably be willing to give them some concessions. I might even be willing to try to stop a genocide that I have the power to stop, despite how crazy that sounds.
Facts
To be honest maybe America does deserve Trump. Biden is no where near as bad as Trump but maybe when your countries leadership boils down to choosing one keeping the status quo while genociding or the other being a fascists while genociding you don’t really deserve anything good.
I’m sorry, are you saying that millions of people, including children, all deserve to suffer because their establishment sucks?
Precisely what they said, yes. People are such trash…
We elect our establishment. We don’t live in a dictatorship. You can’t argue that we collectively aren’t somewhat responsible for who we put in office.
We are, to a point. US election system is particularly bad in representation, what with gerrymandering and voters disenfranchising, but even if it wasn’t it’s callous to say people deserve to suffer because they don’t understand what they’re voting for.
You’re speaking from a position of privilege.
it’s callous to say people deserve to suffer because they don’t understand what they’re voting for.
How? Will live in age were information is more freely available than in any other part of history. It’s your responsibility to be an informed voter. Ignorance isn’t an excuse to give your vote away.
You’re speaking from a position of privilege.
As Americans we all are. We don’t live in a monarchy or a military dictatorship. Everyone is screaming about how important this election is for democracy but democracy is how we got here. Every person who instituted policies that encouraged voter disenfranchising and gerrymandering was voted in. Those who decided not to challenge these policies and kept the status quo were voted in. Facism doesn’t happen overnight. In a lot of cases the populace genuinely asks for it
Nice take, you should tell it to the women who could die if there was a nationwide abortion ban, or maybe someone in the LGBT community that Trump wants to put in camps. I’m sure they’ll love to hear that they deserve it.
Gee I wonder why such a trash fire of an opinion would get downvoted.
Do you have a prom date yet
Please start your comments with the following question answered at the top
Nice try, FBI
I wish. Heared they pay good money.
Maybe Trump should have a word with them, since he has has some issues in that department recently…
And here I am, doing this shit for free :D
I know, just joking
Fair enough.
Hard to tell with people here sometimes.
You’re definitely correct, my bad for not including a /s
“Do you condemn Hamas?”
I remember signing up for army back in the day. One of the questions were:
“Are you a terrorist?”
Yes ___
No ___
