I’m no “repressed worker exposed to the constant violence of capitalism…”. I retired happily end of my 20s, living carpe diem every day since and never have to worry about the technicality of life.
But just because i profit personally from the world, doesn’t mean i have to like it the way it is.
I would give that up for a fair and just world.
My “misplaced blame” lies very well placed on our species itself.
We made capitalism which makes the lifes of most people just miserable and has a system-immanent failure included for free.
we enslave people as a commodity, treat women like animals and property, treat animals even worse.
we torture and kill our own species for fun and sport and war and feelings and whatever else reason there comes up
we care mostly just for ourselfes. We only care for others when nothing is at stake or we fear our god’s wrath.
And it’s not really “a few individuals”. It’s true that those hold the rudder, but I’d bet my left nut on it, that the vast majority of people that currently think to be “good” would instantly be one of “those” if given the chance. And do everything to defend it then.
Yes, I’m a misanthropist for >2 decades. Doesn’t mean i hate humans, i hate humanity. I’m the nicest shit to other people. Be the change in the world you want to see. Still doesn’t blind me to the way the world IS.
So what you’re saying because “power over” is bad, humans are bad? There are plenty humans civilizations who did a better job at preventing power, maybe your misanthropy is a symptom of a narrow worldview?
Exactly. But you’re right. It must be narrow worldview.
Our species even favors/rewards the “dark triad”-personality traits. Nice people (or civilizations) have no chance in the long run, as all it takes to topple it, is one of the aforementioned with enough ambition. History shows, life all around us show.
Sarcasm aside, I’d really prefer if it’d just be my “narrow worldview”. Then the problem would die with me 😊
This worldview is getting increasingly more common with more people falling for eco-fascist talking points. In my experience it most often boils down to two reasons why this happens: lack of education or unwillingness.
As you mentioned you’re in a privileged position, I am just gonna accuse you of the second.
And that’s a shame. I bet with all the time you have from being free from being forced to do wage labour you could actually do good in the world. Your generalisation is an insult to every good person in the world, and I find that to be narrow-minded and disgusting.
I do despise my species, yet i actually do good with my tons of spare time. What I consider “good”. I picked a fraction of this world that is wrong. I help the mentally ill that have no other help and are alone in this world. It often takes more time of a day than some job would take.
People who where abused their whole life, raped, beaten, tortured, whatever. The aftermath of what evil people leave behind.
I don’t need to do it, i don’t even have children or a family (beside a wife), so i couldn’t even care less for the world i leave behind.
But i would be a hypocrite to hate people and BE one of those I hate myself.
So, i won’t ask you what YOU are doing to make this world better, other than insulting random assholes like me on the net, as it’s no contest. Whatever you do, it’s the best the world can ask for.
Also: sorry, if you actually felt personally insulted by that. Not intended. I give every person a chance to proove me wrong. I just obviously start from a different prejudice. You seem to hate me more than i hate you 😊
That’s great to hear you’re trying to be better than your skewed view of humanity! I hope I was wrong.
I don’t know you, so hating you is kind of difficult and I don’t want to anyways :). I do absolutely despise the opinions you’ve presented in this thread though. I understand them on an emotional level, but I really encourage you to try to grow past them. It only helps those who want to make the world a worse place, and I personally think that empathy and cooperation is the way out.
I understand that’s more difficult than just throwing the towel.
It’s hard to “grow past”, when I grew past the more optimistic view decades ago and grew into misanthropy. Rationally by observation and deduction, not emotionally (How else could I love my wife). There surely are exceptions. Great people who really do good, not just because their god told them to, or they want to reap some benefits in the long run or for whatever ulterior motive else. It’s just incredibly tiresome to check thousands of empty shells for some rare pearls. And also totally useless for the big picture outside my little box. One tainted apple is enough. One unvaxxed is enough. One evil ambitious fucknugget is enough.
We’re even on the brink of witnessing the first trillionaire. That is a force no “empathy and cooperation” could compete against.
Not saying you’re wrong. Keep that optimism as long as you could.
Anyhow:
“Nothing can make our life, or the lives of other people, more beautiful than perpetual kindness.” (Leo Tolstoy)
That’s a pretty valid point of view. You’re right on the fact most are corruptible by power, so i personally wouldn’t blame individuals, i only blame the system.
And it’s true the better systems didn’t last… Doesn’t mean we can’t try to improve ever so slightly.
Now i’m not sure how much we can learn from history though.
The problem is that our paradigm is changing much too fast alongside our technology.
So i think we can’t really predict what the gamble of technology will give us next.
Might be bad, might be good, or something just different, but i bet we will be extremely surprised by how fast change will come.
I don’t see how tech will change anything? It’s just a tool, it doesn’t alter US.
And yes, of course, we sure can and should try to better the world. Yet it should be globally clear at this point, that capital is deciding and not us. One musk might change the world. But none of those extreme moneybags will ever change it for the better. And no working-class joe will ever have the chance to change anything other than in his utopia-vision. Doesn’t mean the vision isn’t valid.
Just futile.
You don’t see how tech is the only reason for the world changing like it does recently?
Internet and digital tech for exemple, is what made Google, Amazon or Facebook…
Their capital didn’t came from just the guys running things, pretty far from it. Without them their company would still exist, just with a different name and guy at the top, they would give the same service.
What created those company and the capital is what was invented and developed by programmers and scientists.
And only profit is driving it, not any one person.
Today what is changing things repeatedly is digital techniques like AI.
And let’s be honest gafa aren’t the one chosing to invest, they just know if it’s not them the opportunity to make billions will be to someone else, it’s just reality of technical advancement.
And that’s what changed our society, always has been. Same could be said about coal, electricity and petrol, cars…
The market just follows the flow of technology, and the problem is that it doesn’t care for people in the process, you just can’t miss an opportunity.
P.S. I’d also argue it change a lot about US in some sens, it changed our vision of the world, our culture and our way to interact.
I think you overvalue tech. At least in regard to the topic.
Sure, it lays new paths. And in the case of the Internet it were gargantuan changes (i witnessed it all and loved it). But it didn’t and doesn’t change the nature of man itself. It just makes it easier and offers new ways and tools.
Also AI won’t change that much. It’s not even intelligent. It’s “just” a titanic amount of data with no conscience or intelligence. AI is just a great buzzword. Sure it’s awesome and will change a lot in the tech-industry, but it’s no game-changer for capitalism or us.
Sure it doesn’t change our nature. But i don’t think our nature is the only factor in how our society evolve. It’s not the only thing that matters to us anymore, i wouldn’t be able to talk to you let alone read (i haves glasses). Most of the things we do aren’t natural.
Now sure AI isn’t really intelligent let alone conscious. But it is such a tool that impacted a lot industry and our daily lives. Writing or art, gaming, programming, all changed to some extent. And it seems to still have a long way to go.
Now of course it will not change that much on its own, but in the future alongside with everything else we’re going to invent, i think it will make things change, like previous invention made our modern society.
i wouldn’t be able to talk to you let alone read (i haves glasses). Most of the things we do aren’t natural
But wasn’t this exactly my previous point? It’s “just” new tools and ways. I’m not more or less good/evil because i can read/communicate with you. I just can now. Back then i couldn’t have.
Sure, all the new tech brought up even more worse shit of us, but WE are still the defining factor, not our tools.
Yeah sure, didn’t mean to devalue the importance of the changes “AI” (i hate that word) brings and will bring. As a mega nerd i actually effing love the f out of it. We could also be proud to be part of it. Coming generations just “have it”.
And i already am a lucky fucker to have been part in the creation of the internet and the rise of global communication, the smartphone, the smart home… And now AI.
Many native societies (who often still exist today), the zapatistas, in the ZADs, the Paris commune, Rojava, and also potentially most of the time humanity existed. I could dig up more, but arguing with somebody who has opinions like that is tedious.
“Meanwhile, antihumanists have divested the very concept of Progress of all relevance and meaning in the farrago of human self-denigration that marks the moods of the present time. A skepticism that denies any meaning, rationality, coherence, and continuity in History, that corrodes the very existence of premises, let alone the necessity of exploring them, renders discourse itself virtually impossible”
Not arguing about the existence of probably better societies in the past (it’s also hard to argue about things in the very long gone past).
But where are they today? How is any of that applicable to our current world? Hunter-Gatherrers are gone. We’re consumers now. Worker-ants. The only reason those native societies are still there, is that they have got nothing anyone wants. If they would’ve, they would’ve been eradicated too. Like every other civilization that were weaker.
But hey, I absolutely don’t want to convince you otherwise. Would be futile anyway.
To quote Dostoyevski (I’m pretty positive it was him):
“I have seen the truth. I have seen and I know that people can be beautiful and happy. I will not and cannot believe that evil is the normal condition of mankind.”
Yes, we need to practice with ourselves before we get to meet the evil xenos from the stars and avoid getting curbstomped by them. I think we are doing great.
I feel like when you see some people being evil, and your conclusion is that everyone would be evil if given the chance, you kind of have to also be evil to come to that conclusion. Good people don’t “turn evil” easily. If you suddenly “become evil” as soon as the opportunity presents itself, were you ever truly good?
Ever heard the phrase “power corrupts”?
Sure, there might be people who are good and come to might and power. But how often does that happen? Name one powerful person that does good? Even if you can, name another 3.
While naming poweful people who fuck(ed) this planet and everything and everyone it, is prerty easy.
So, without even discussing the nature of man, the simple observation of what currently is and always was, seems to suffice.
Also you’re not wrong with your last statement. That is basically what i said. They weren’t truly ever good. We play by the rules until we mustn’t anymore.
I’ve heard the phrase, but that doesn’t make it true. Power attracts bad people and gives them the opportunity to be more bad. This doesn’t mean it turns good people bad.
Then name one person who ever reached true power by being good and then remained good.
Maybe you could even name one, but could you name three?
Yet the list of people that would rather proove that point is easy to fill to the brim.
Wow, what a combination.
But sorry, a youtuber that earns his money by being “good” and is literally living off this “making news” isn’t really counting in my book.
Jesus… Dunno about some figure that might or might not have existed in this or another way. Hard to argue.
Sanders… I’m no American so i don’t know enough about the guy, other than that he want the good changes. But who cares, he won’t make it. Good people never get power. That’s the point. You’ll probably end with clown-face-billionaire-pedo again.
a youtuber that earns his money by being “good” and is literally living off this “making news” isn’t really counting in my book.
Why not? He’s basically a walking nonprofit organization. He makes videos of spending the money to make more money through ad revenue and merch sales, but that earned money is reinvested into future charity. I wasn’t able to find specifics, but it’s a significant amount (several million, multiple times). Is he also enjoying being a celebrity? Yeah, probably. But that doesn’t mean he’s not both good and powerful.
Sanders won’t get in power
I mean, he was fairly close to being the democratic presidential nominee, and he’s a pretty productive government member even now. He’s always had a very clear positive stance on things like gay marriage and other democratic policies, even far back into his early career when those were much less popular.
Sorry, it’s hard to trust someone to be “good” when being good is actually the source of income. If it pays a sociopath to be nice, he’d be nice. Until it stops being beneficial.
Doesn’t mean he COULD be nice. I don’t know the guy personally :)
Sanders might be nice, and also productive right now. But a look on how incredibly bad the USA looks to the world, i highly doubt he will REALLY do anything. Even if he has good intentions, it sadly doesn’t matter much. Though, everytime I read something about/from him, I always was like “why the fuck don’t they get THIS guy to run this shithole?! why do they want the assclown instead?!”.
Nonsense.
I’m no “repressed worker exposed to the constant violence of capitalism…”. I retired happily end of my 20s, living carpe diem every day since and never have to worry about the technicality of life. But just because i profit personally from the world, doesn’t mean i have to like it the way it is. I would give that up for a fair and just world.
My “misplaced blame” lies very well placed on our species itself.
We made capitalism which makes the lifes of most people just miserable and has a system-immanent failure included for free.
we enslave people as a commodity, treat women like animals and property, treat animals even worse.
we torture and kill our own species for fun and sport and war and feelings and whatever else reason there comes up
we care mostly just for ourselfes. We only care for others when nothing is at stake or we fear our god’s wrath.
And it’s not really “a few individuals”. It’s true that those hold the rudder, but I’d bet my left nut on it, that the vast majority of people that currently think to be “good” would instantly be one of “those” if given the chance. And do everything to defend it then.
Yes, I’m a misanthropist for >2 decades. Doesn’t mean i hate humans, i hate humanity. I’m the nicest shit to other people. Be the change in the world you want to see. Still doesn’t blind me to the way the world IS.
So what you’re saying because “power over” is bad, humans are bad? There are plenty humans civilizations who did a better job at preventing power, maybe your misanthropy is a symptom of a narrow worldview?
Oh yeah. Where are those civilizations?
Exactly. But you’re right. It must be narrow worldview.
Our species even favors/rewards the “dark triad”-personality traits. Nice people (or civilizations) have no chance in the long run, as all it takes to topple it, is one of the aforementioned with enough ambition. History shows, life all around us show.
Sarcasm aside, I’d really prefer if it’d just be my “narrow worldview”. Then the problem would die with me 😊
This worldview is getting increasingly more common with more people falling for eco-fascist talking points. In my experience it most often boils down to two reasons why this happens: lack of education or unwillingness.
As you mentioned you’re in a privileged position, I am just gonna accuse you of the second. And that’s a shame. I bet with all the time you have from being free from being forced to do wage labour you could actually do good in the world. Your generalisation is an insult to every good person in the world, and I find that to be narrow-minded and disgusting.
On the off-chance the reason is the first, I recommend Kropotkin’s “Mutual Aid” as an intro. It’s free in the anarchist library and other places.
It’s neither, but I will still give it a read. Knowledge never hurts.
No reason to be ad hominem.
I do despise my species, yet i actually do good with my tons of spare time. What I consider “good”. I picked a fraction of this world that is wrong. I help the mentally ill that have no other help and are alone in this world. It often takes more time of a day than some job would take. People who where abused their whole life, raped, beaten, tortured, whatever. The aftermath of what evil people leave behind.
I don’t need to do it, i don’t even have children or a family (beside a wife), so i couldn’t even care less for the world i leave behind.
But i would be a hypocrite to hate people and BE one of those I hate myself.
So, i won’t ask you what YOU are doing to make this world better, other than insulting random assholes like me on the net, as it’s no contest. Whatever you do, it’s the best the world can ask for.
Also: sorry, if you actually felt personally insulted by that. Not intended. I give every person a chance to proove me wrong. I just obviously start from a different prejudice. You seem to hate me more than i hate you 😊
That’s great to hear you’re trying to be better than your skewed view of humanity! I hope I was wrong.
I don’t know you, so hating you is kind of difficult and I don’t want to anyways :). I do absolutely despise the opinions you’ve presented in this thread though. I understand them on an emotional level, but I really encourage you to try to grow past them. It only helps those who want to make the world a worse place, and I personally think that empathy and cooperation is the way out.
I understand that’s more difficult than just throwing the towel.
It’s hard to “grow past”, when I grew past the more optimistic view decades ago and grew into misanthropy. Rationally by observation and deduction, not emotionally (How else could I love my wife). There surely are exceptions. Great people who really do good, not just because their god told them to, or they want to reap some benefits in the long run or for whatever ulterior motive else. It’s just incredibly tiresome to check thousands of empty shells for some rare pearls. And also totally useless for the big picture outside my little box. One tainted apple is enough. One unvaxxed is enough. One evil ambitious fucknugget is enough. We’re even on the brink of witnessing the first trillionaire. That is a force no “empathy and cooperation” could compete against.
Not saying you’re wrong. Keep that optimism as long as you could.
Anyhow: “Nothing can make our life, or the lives of other people, more beautiful than perpetual kindness.” (Leo Tolstoy)
That’s a pretty valid point of view. You’re right on the fact most are corruptible by power, so i personally wouldn’t blame individuals, i only blame the system.
And it’s true the better systems didn’t last… Doesn’t mean we can’t try to improve ever so slightly.
Now i’m not sure how much we can learn from history though.
The problem is that our paradigm is changing much too fast alongside our technology.
So i think we can’t really predict what the gamble of technology will give us next.
Might be bad, might be good, or something just different, but i bet we will be extremely surprised by how fast change will come.
I don’t see how tech will change anything? It’s just a tool, it doesn’t alter US.
And yes, of course, we sure can and should try to better the world. Yet it should be globally clear at this point, that capital is deciding and not us. One musk might change the world. But none of those extreme moneybags will ever change it for the better. And no working-class joe will ever have the chance to change anything other than in his utopia-vision. Doesn’t mean the vision isn’t valid. Just futile.
You don’t see how tech is the only reason for the world changing like it does recently?
Internet and digital tech for exemple, is what made Google, Amazon or Facebook…
Their capital didn’t came from just the guys running things, pretty far from it. Without them their company would still exist, just with a different name and guy at the top, they would give the same service.
What created those company and the capital is what was invented and developed by programmers and scientists.
And only profit is driving it, not any one person.
Today what is changing things repeatedly is digital techniques like AI.
And let’s be honest gafa aren’t the one chosing to invest, they just know if it’s not them the opportunity to make billions will be to someone else, it’s just reality of technical advancement.
And that’s what changed our society, always has been. Same could be said about coal, electricity and petrol, cars…
The market just follows the flow of technology, and the problem is that it doesn’t care for people in the process, you just can’t miss an opportunity.
P.S. I’d also argue it change a lot about US in some sens, it changed our vision of the world, our culture and our way to interact.
I think you overvalue tech. At least in regard to the topic. Sure, it lays new paths. And in the case of the Internet it were gargantuan changes (i witnessed it all and loved it). But it didn’t and doesn’t change the nature of man itself. It just makes it easier and offers new ways and tools.
Also AI won’t change that much. It’s not even intelligent. It’s “just” a titanic amount of data with no conscience or intelligence. AI is just a great buzzword. Sure it’s awesome and will change a lot in the tech-industry, but it’s no game-changer for capitalism or us.
Sure it doesn’t change our nature. But i don’t think our nature is the only factor in how our society evolve. It’s not the only thing that matters to us anymore, i wouldn’t be able to talk to you let alone read (i haves glasses). Most of the things we do aren’t natural.
Now sure AI isn’t really intelligent let alone conscious. But it is such a tool that impacted a lot industry and our daily lives. Writing or art, gaming, programming, all changed to some extent. And it seems to still have a long way to go.
Now of course it will not change that much on its own, but in the future alongside with everything else we’re going to invent, i think it will make things change, like previous invention made our modern society.
But wasn’t this exactly my previous point? It’s “just” new tools and ways. I’m not more or less good/evil because i can read/communicate with you. I just can now. Back then i couldn’t have. Sure, all the new tech brought up even more worse shit of us, but WE are still the defining factor, not our tools.
Yeah sure, didn’t mean to devalue the importance of the changes “AI” (i hate that word) brings and will bring. As a mega nerd i actually effing love the f out of it. We could also be proud to be part of it. Coming generations just “have it”. And i already am a lucky fucker to have been part in the creation of the internet and the rise of global communication, the smartphone, the smart home… And now AI.
Would you mind explaining how you answer that question yourself? Just so I don’t misunderstand you.
I didn’t make the claim. I’m honestly curious as to what civilization(s) you meant? I couldn’t name one currently.
Many native societies (who often still exist today), the zapatistas, in the ZADs, the Paris commune, Rojava, and also potentially most of the time humanity existed. I could dig up more, but arguing with somebody who has opinions like that is tedious.
Bookchin, you can find the context here
Not arguing about the existence of probably better societies in the past (it’s also hard to argue about things in the very long gone past). But where are they today? How is any of that applicable to our current world? Hunter-Gatherrers are gone. We’re consumers now. Worker-ants. The only reason those native societies are still there, is that they have got nothing anyone wants. If they would’ve, they would’ve been eradicated too. Like every other civilization that were weaker.
But hey, I absolutely don’t want to convince you otherwise. Would be futile anyway.
To quote Dostoyevski (I’m pretty positive it was him): “I have seen the truth. I have seen and I know that people can be beautiful and happy. I will not and cannot believe that evil is the normal condition of mankind.”
Yes, we need to practice with ourselves before we get to meet the evil xenos from the stars and avoid getting curbstomped by them. I think we are doing great.
I feel like when you see some people being evil, and your conclusion is that everyone would be evil if given the chance, you kind of have to also be evil to come to that conclusion. Good people don’t “turn evil” easily. If you suddenly “become evil” as soon as the opportunity presents itself, were you ever truly good?
Ever heard the phrase “power corrupts”? Sure, there might be people who are good and come to might and power. But how often does that happen? Name one powerful person that does good? Even if you can, name another 3. While naming poweful people who fuck(ed) this planet and everything and everyone it, is prerty easy.
So, without even discussing the nature of man, the simple observation of what currently is and always was, seems to suffice.
Also you’re not wrong with your last statement. That is basically what i said. They weren’t truly ever good. We play by the rules until we mustn’t anymore.
I’ve heard the phrase, but that doesn’t make it true. Power attracts bad people and gives them the opportunity to be more bad. This doesn’t mean it turns good people bad.
Then name one person who ever reached true power by being good and then remained good. Maybe you could even name one, but could you name three? Yet the list of people that would rather proove that point is easy to fill to the brim.
Most people who are good don’t make the news, but unironically: MrBeast, Jesus, and Bernie Sanders
Never thought I’d put any two of those people in the same category lmao
Wow, what a combination. But sorry, a youtuber that earns his money by being “good” and is literally living off this “making news” isn’t really counting in my book.
Jesus… Dunno about some figure that might or might not have existed in this or another way. Hard to argue.
Sanders… I’m no American so i don’t know enough about the guy, other than that he want the good changes. But who cares, he won’t make it. Good people never get power. That’s the point. You’ll probably end with clown-face-billionaire-pedo again.
Yeah I made this hard mode with my choices lol
Why not? He’s basically a walking nonprofit organization. He makes videos of spending the money to make more money through ad revenue and merch sales, but that earned money is reinvested into future charity. I wasn’t able to find specifics, but it’s a significant amount (several million, multiple times). Is he also enjoying being a celebrity? Yeah, probably. But that doesn’t mean he’s not both good and powerful.
I mean, he was fairly close to being the democratic presidential nominee, and he’s a pretty productive government member even now. He’s always had a very clear positive stance on things like gay marriage and other democratic policies, even far back into his early career when those were much less popular.
Sorry, it’s hard to trust someone to be “good” when being good is actually the source of income. If it pays a sociopath to be nice, he’d be nice. Until it stops being beneficial. Doesn’t mean he COULD be nice. I don’t know the guy personally :)
Sanders might be nice, and also productive right now. But a look on how incredibly bad the USA looks to the world, i highly doubt he will REALLY do anything. Even if he has good intentions, it sadly doesn’t matter much. Though, everytime I read something about/from him, I always was like “why the fuck don’t they get THIS guy to run this shithole?! why do they want the assclown instead?!”.