• IzzyScissor@lemmy.world
    132·
    10 months ago

    If “your man card can be revoked” then you understand that gender is performative and conditional.

    • Ann Archy@lemmy.world
      5·
      10 months ago

      In fact words all those words are a bunch of gibberish and neither the world nor reality works like that. I can just question the vague and often circular premises of that argument and we’re back to square zero.

      Not against the sentiment, but you’re never going to get anywhere with that pseudoacademic bullshit.

      Edit: hahaha just keep proving my point. You’re the same as them- dogmatic fanatics with no arguments that hold up for shit.

    • Thrashy@lemmy.world
      2·
      10 months ago

      For some the optionality of it is less important than the notion that if it’s performative, you can be bad at it and therefore make yourself an acceptable target for abuse, and besides that the idea that some roles can be restricted to only those with a certain set of physical characteristics is deeply ingrained in many, be that in terms gender, career, or what have you.

    • Lemminary@lemmy.world
      65·
      10 months ago

      This is why I like it when I see men wear skirts/kilts, wear eyeliner and/or paint their nails. It’s not something I’m into but I think it’s cool when I see it.

    • southsamurai@sh.itjust.works
      46·
      10 months ago

      I’ve had that discussion before.

      Gender roles, and thus gender presentation, are cultural for the most part. Some are common enough to multiple cultures that it approaches being just human culture.

      But even in western (us, canada, europe) cultures, there have been periods where the presentation of masculinity would be considered feminine in other eras. So gender roles & presentation aren’t fixed in a given culture.

      If I, regardless of what my genitals are, present as a man, then I am effectively the same as whatever a man is in my culture. If that also includes taking on the gender roles of “man”, then that’s another layer.

      However, this also means that when enough men shift their presentation and roles, anyone holding to the previous roles and presentation are now “less” a man in the cultural sense. It really, truly is a majority rules situation, and the minority are what get relabeled (usually).

      The more men that reject an arbitrary paradigm of masculinity, the more we shift to an open, loose definition of what is and isn’t masculine, with the eventual possibility that gender becomes so loose in definition that masculine and feminine become irrelevant terms, if the labels also lose relevance to the majority. And I believe that if enough people reject fixed gender paradigms, the terms would inevitably cease to matter.

      I mean, we’ve already started to add qualifiers. We have traditional gender roles as a specific thing as separate from current gender roles.

      This isn’t to deny that hormones and genetics will push people into behaviors that are linked to gender because they’re mostly linked to sex. But even with those pressures, we usually have room how we express those behaviors.

      It’s why I always tell folks, particularly younger folks, to not worry much about labels. Be who you are, as long as who you are isn’t a douche, and you’ll eventually find the labels that feel right. And there’s a good chance you’ll end up shifting your self over time anyway, which is fine. As long as you don’t fixate on labels as defining the person, the self, you can freely shift labels as the self shifts. It’s when you pick a label and think that you have to fit it in all ways, forever, that you run into trouble.

      So, fuck yeah. If you feel “girly”, be girly. Enjoy that shit. Be your best self. It’ll eventually work out :)

      • captainlezbian@lemmy.world
        11·
        10 months ago

        Exactly. I think labels are useful as communication tools, but they’re an active hindrance to self exploration. One of the greatest things I ever did for myself was completely setting them aside when exploring my gender until I knew what I wanted. It was a lot easier to run off a checklist of options than to sort through a variety of labels, even when I fell solidly into some labels.

  • TxzK@lemmy.zip
    52·
    10 months ago

    It’s often time better to not just argue with these asshats. Waste of your time and energy while achieving less than a dog barking at a tree.

    • Ann Archy@lemmy.world
      1·
      10 months ago

      100% goes for the other side as well. There is zero arguing at any side, everybody just shuts down and becomes a fucking retard. Don’t pretend like anything on either side makes sense.

    • tan00k@lemmy.world
      19·
      10 months ago

      You can’t gatekeep being nonbinary. Not unless you’re prepared to define it explicitly, which will exclude many people - and not everyone will agree with your definition either.

      • captainlezbian@lemmy.world
        10·
        10 months ago

        I said just because. Not that effeminate men aren’t capable of being nonbinary, merely that it is not sufficient (or necessary for that matter). You have to like actually not identify as entirely a man.

        But it’s not my place to fight I’m very much in the binary side of transness.

        • tan00k@lemmy.world
          4·
          10 months ago

          Whose authority says it’s not sufficient? If they say they are nonbinary, they are nonbinary.

          • ferret@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
            12·
            10 months ago

            OP means “don’t assume someone is non-binary because they are an effeminate man” and not “you aren’t non-binary just because you are an effeminate man”

            • tan00k@lemmy.world
              5·
              10 months ago

              I suppose that’s possible, but the thing you say OP is not saying is literally a quote. So at best it’s worded poorly.

              • ferret@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
                9·
                10 months ago

                Their intent with the message was clearly less-than-literal. They tried to clear things up in replies but failed. I think it is quite clear that they meant no one any harm, and simply failed to convey their idea properly.

                • The_Lopen@sh.itjust.works
                  2·
                  10 months ago

                  The comment itself should be edited to reflect the original intent, then. People can’t just say stupid and hyperbolic things and not be held socially accountable.

          • Sadbutdru@sopuli.xyz
            3·
            10 months ago

            This is a miscommunication, you two are not really in disagreement as far as I can see. If someone {presents as an effeminate man} AND {they say they’re non-binary} => {they are non-binary}. However if someone {presents as an effeminate man} AND does NOT {say they’re non-binary}… Then it’s not sufficient.

    • Ann Archy@lemmy.world
      3·
      10 months ago

      Nothing is anything, did people forget that these are all completely nonsense words with no connection to reality? No matter how scientific and very legal very cool semantic concepts you come up with it won’t change reality one fucking bit. Non binary… Nobody gives a FUCK, it has no correlation with ANYTHING in the Universe, it’s just another shit pseudophilosophical concept being shoved down everyone’s throat like it’s some kind of objective reality.

      It’s metaphysics, and “you people” (yes, YOU PEOPLE) suck at it.

      The shit you find in your belly hole while navel gazing is not worth shit.

      • LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        6·
        10 months ago

        Are you transphobic as well? I’m genuinely curious. Or does transgender count as “real” in your view because it does have a far more strict definition?

          • LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com
            2·
            10 months ago

            I am too tbh, I think the weird thing is enbies to me are inherently a sort of political commentary through identity on gender and our relationship to it, unless I’m just wrong.

            I think the whole issue is somewhat separate from trans people who mostly are just people with a mental neurodivergence/disorder called gender dysphoria that causes them anguish and is caused by their body’s sex and their brain’s innate sense of sex don’t agree and therefore they seek medical treatments like HRT and surgeries and documentation changes to help them perceive themselves and be perceived by others as members of the target sex as much as is humanly possible.

            Their political angle is to fight for access to said healthcare to be more common, available through insurance, be taken more seriously with faster wait times and be available to younger people since the effectiveness of a lot of the treatments like hormones depends on the age you start.

            Conflating the two imo is kinda like commentary on attention spans relating to social media and the actual neurological disorder ADHD.

            • MetaCubed@lemmy.world
              1·
              10 months ago

              I think it’s a little “exotic” to call my existence an inherent political commentary. It’s certainly something that can be used to inform political debate, but I believe saying that it’s inherent misses the point that our existence is only political because it’s politicized

              And for what it’s worth, gender dysphoria is also something experienced by nonbinary folks, but it isn’t a requirement of being trans or non-binary either. Some people just don’t experience it and requiring it as a clinical diagnosis is part of the medicalization of our and trans people’s existence as well.

              I don’t really know how to finish this lol, I agree with the rest of your comment. I just wanted to correct what I feel are common misconceptions.

              • LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                1·
                10 months ago

                Maybe dysphoria isn’t a precondition to being trans, but I don’t get how.

                What I don’t understand is then why transition? If you’re fine as you are, why the hassle? Just as fashion/identity? Body modding for lulz? Nothing wrong with either but it’s very removed from my XP.

                I only transitioned because I needed to, to me GD is a curse treated with medication and surgeries I couldn’t live without and that’s basically all that being trans is to me. The identity of being trans is defined to me by dysphoria - mental torture associated with one’s birth sex fixed by becoming the other, or as close as possible with current tech.

                Also how does enby dysphoria work? Do you just feel dysphoric about a mix of male and female traits? That’s wild if true.

      • chetradley@lemmy.world
        1·
        10 months ago

        Telling someone whose gender doesn’t conform to the male/female binary view of gender that the term non-binary is a “shit pseudophilosophical concept” that “has no connection to reality” fucking sucks. Either you don’t recognize gender outside of the binary, or you just think these people don’t deserve a way to express and talk about their gender. Either way it’s a garbage take.

  • AItoothbrush@lemmy.zipEnglish
    46·
    10 months ago

    Even tho im a cishet male i can absolutely imagine how freaking annoying these people could be.

        • AwkwardTurtle@lemmy.world
          12·
          10 months ago

          Sorry, I thought you meant the letter U, as in the U People. I’ve been looking for them for a long time. They live underground, you see, that’s where the U comes from. They’re hard to find! But if you find one, it is tasty!

              • shneancy@lemmy.world
                2·
                10 months ago

                in case you’re not joking and actually don’t know: AwkwardTurtle was one of the most universally disliked reddit mods, she modded a vast number of popular servers, and often banned people on a whim. There were multiple dramas surrounding her

                • AwkwardTurtle@lemmy.world
                  3·
                  10 months ago

                  Not joking, actually unaware of this mod until I took up the username here randomly haha.

                  I’ve never been a mod for anything :p

          • SPRUNT@lemmy.world
            3·
            10 months ago

            Thank you! Finally getting the respect U-people deserve instead of the derogatory term many use that labels us all as not-quite-human cannibals.

        • Ann Archy@lemmy.world
          2·
          10 months ago

          It’s fucking stupid, they’re doing the same as their detractors. It’s just bullshit slinging on both sides. Of course only one side are bigoted cunts, which makes it easy to see who’s on the right side, but going just by the rhetoric on “our” side is fucking sophomoric at best.

  • ULS@lemmy.ml
    41·
    10 months ago

    Homophobes are cute. Me and my homies only jerk off to homophobes. Just like those old WW2 vets that invented the gay leather scene. Except now the kink is to dress up as an Ultra-American instead of a German nazi. I got a 1776 shirt literally just to fuck with.

    (One part humor, one part truth, one part bullshit. If my lame comedy makes anyone angry they aren’t living the life they should be. Treat yo self.)

    • captainlezbian@lemmy.world
      5·
      10 months ago

      As a leather woman I do want people to know how the community actually formed. Motorcycling was a socially acceptable hobby and served two purposes: it as a hobby has just always been useful for men dealing with ptsd who aren’t comfortable with therapy (it’s worse than therapy but it’s better than nothing and it’s not like 1948 Americans were ready to hear that John can’t process that he killed someone and that he fell in love with a soldier who died in his arms), and it served as a convenient excuse to get out of town into the middle of nowhere where nobody will see gay sadomasochism unless they came to see it.

      It’s never been a parody of the right, but it has had parodies of what was expected of them. The Nazi fetishists were different folks usually. Though we did have people wearing parodies of us uniforms

    • Human Penguin@lemmy.cafeEnglish
      11·
      10 months ago

      Historically less so. Even back in the 80s lots of girls i knew and thought of as tom boys. Where forced to dress and act girlie by there parents. Further back you go more limits there were.

      • Monkey With A Shell@lemmy.socdojo.com
        4·
        10 months ago

        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Roosevelt_Longworth

        “I can either run the country or I can attend to Alice, but I cannot possibly do both”

        Chastised by some, loved by others, it depends a lot on the audience. I think overall though women have been given more a pass, pegged as ‘willfull’ or ‘impetuous’ where as with men it’s treated as a flaw that they should be shunned for.

        Think of the differing ways that daddy’s girl and mamma’s boy are perceived to get to what I mean.

  • Deadeyegai@lemmy.worldEnglish
    14·
    10 months ago

    Then as a man, I choose to act like a girly-Man©. See? Has Man© and that symbol makes it official. That means I can do anything <‘ronswanson meme.jpg’> Checkmate. Easy victory

  • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
    8·
    10 months ago

    Reactionaries have no underlying principles, they just react, violently in some cases. If you guide them through their own cobbled-together set of values and show the contradictions, they get angry and start yelling, because to them, they are their own moral arbiter and a challenge to their status quo is an enemy.

    Gender is a Social construct and getting upset at people for being outside the bimodal spectrum conservative society expects them to be is utterly pointless, stupid, and harmful.

  • Alien Nathan Edward@lemm.eeEnglish
    7·
    10 months ago

    it’s designed so that you can’t win except by being and doing precisely what you’re told. this is because it’s designed by evil people and promoted by weak people.

  • ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca
    4·
    10 months ago

    First half is a conservative argument (gender roles)

    Second half is a liberal argument (abolish gender roles)

    • frezik@midwest.social
      11·
      10 months ago

      I once asked myself what good gender roles ever do. I have yet to find a good answer. Almost everything about it comes down to making sure certain people are classed ahead of other people.

    • Ann Archy@lemmy.world
      1·
      10 months ago

      It’s actually a Russian sponsored non issue to pit us against one another. Sadly the conservatives bought into it hardstyle because they smell money and power to be made from the controversy.