At the same time, those towns are hella compact, such that 90+% of residents can walk to pretty much any retailer or store or other resource within 15-20 minutes. Yes, some people (farmers) live outside of town and there are some American-style housing in clumps outside of the town, but everyone mostly lives in tight clusters.
And even the tiny towns well away from other larger towns have busses that move people between towns on a fairly regular If infrequent basis (15-20 minutes apart). Only the larger population centres can afford to have public transport that comes every 5 minutes or so.
You also have to understand that in North America, a “significant separation between towns” is something like 100+km. In Germany, that term qualifies with as little as a 10km distance. It’s rare to find any population centre that is more than 20km away from its nearest neighbour.
fairly regular If infrequent basis (15-20 minutes apart)
lol that’s the frequency that the busses and trains near me operate during peak commute times. I finally broke down and bought a car. I’m American if you couldn’t tell…
Oof, in my city there’s one route that’s 40 minutes, and the rest are an hour+
If I lived in a different spot or had kids or anything, it’d be impossible for me to take the bus. I don’t blame people who don’t use it. It’s mostly used by homeless people.
Yeah, that’s what really sucks. I grew up in a similar place, and for me it’s a thousand times better to live in a place with transit (and, y’know, sidewalks…), regardless of how little funding it gets. Sorry :(
Yeah I’ve lived in Germany and the Netherlands and also big US cities with mediocre transit. Having zero non-car options sucks, especially as regulation and other economic factors are making the cost of cars outpace our already crazy inflation.
At the same time, those towns are hella compact, such that 90+% of residents can walk to pretty much any retailer or store or other resource within 15-20 minutes.
Pandemics are a thing
Families wanting nature and places in their backyard that kids can play
I think 15 minute cities are great if you have everything to back it up. All of the grocery stores and mini-box stores left downtown Seattle because a lot are work from home now. If people can work and live anywhere they want, they want nature. You need to have transit for that.
Edit: I’m trying to understand the downvotes, is this not being taught in urban planning? Is it just developers wanting to rent their spaces because their leases are closing out? Or is it naive people wanting to force their ideas without realizing humans are going to make decisions in the process as well? Super interesting thread.
One of the mistakes for which j think you are down voted is thinking you can’t have nature nearby if you live in a more dense cluster. Quite the opposite is true. People living in apartments 4 or 5 high leaves a lot more open space available for parks, playgrounds, etc. Suburban sprawl looking for “wanting nature and places in their backyard that kids can play” is exactly what destroys this space in cities in the first place…
As an American, I worked in Tokyo for a while and I would 100% raise a family in any sized walkable town or city with mass transit. You could walk to several stores or restaurants, the train station, the river, or several parks within 10 minutes.
As an American, I worked in Tokyo for a while and I would 100% raise a family in any sized walkable town or city with mass transit.
They also have along with amazing transit, grocery stores within walking distance, like New York. Also, your preferences aren’t everyone’s preferences. Again, if you have the infrastructure to back it up, go for it. If you don’t, work towards this, but take into account all of the possible problems with it. No one was wishing they lived in the city during the beginning of the pandemic.
I think 15 minute cities are great if you have everything to back it up.
This is just a tautology
I think water is great if it has two hydrogens for each oxygen
Even if you have most things nearby for day-to-day life but still need to travel an hour for any of: school, work, daycare, groceries, or even common leisure or entertainment activities, “green spaces”… Then that ain’t a 15 minute city.
Additionally, transit is absolutely included in 15 minute city concept - whether it be pedestrian, biking, bus, train, mixed-mode trips, cars*… It’s a holistic concept so of course these are all under the umbrella.
* yes even cars can be included, but in order for the others to be successful they are general de-prioritized in this model.
Edit: I’ll also add that I see “15-minute city” is an aspirational goal, and anything that moves us closer towards it tends to be good for the people that live there - and even if not fully achieved in a particular place, this type of hand-wringing about specific aspects in order to disregard the whole concept seems disingenuous at best.
If people can work and live anywhere they want, they want nature.
This is a huge generalization and you seem to imply that would mean populations spreading out into semi rural areas. Studies have shown people are happier with access to nature, but you seem to forget green spaces, parks and tree lined streets exist. I loved living in a walkable city and absolutely would again if I could afford it.
Studies have shown people are happier with access to nature, but you seem to forget green spaces, parks and tree lined streets exist. I loved living in a walkable city and absolutely would again if I could afford it.
I know parks exist, that doesn’t mean the city is right for everyone. I’m glad you would love a great walkable city, I think they’re great too. Do you think that people would enjoy raising a family in a studio apartment?
You don’t think that 2+ bedroom apartments exist in the city?
If you’re about to say “oh of course but they’re unaffordable” then you admit that so many people want to live or have a family in a city that demand outstrips supply. If no one wanted to live in the city housing would be cheaper there. The lack of housing supply is another discussion entirely but put simply, zoning laws in the US are pretty stupid and plenty of other developed countries don’t have that problem.
You don’t think that 2+ bedroom apartments exist in the city?
If you’re about to say “oh of course but they’re unaffordable” then you admit that so many people want to live or have a family in a city that demand outstrips supply. If no one wanted to live in the city housing would be cheaper there. The lack of housing supply is another discussion entirely but put simply, zoning laws in the US are pretty stupid and plenty of other developed countries don’t have that problem.
I think the downvotes are the blanket statement of “if people can work and live anywhere they want, they want nature”
I like nature just fine and have worked from home for most of the past ten years but you couldn’t get me to give up the city for the country and I’ve had the option for a long time. I moved from Atlanta to Seattle because i preferred the opposite of what you said people want.
Let’s get something straight, I love the city. I love and live in Seattle and love it too, even with all of its quirks. I think a walkable city is great. It is not for everyone and people have to figure that out.
They have micro apartments that were a nightmare before the pandemic, it was the best that some could afford. Granted, there was a lot of rent price fixing going on as well, not sure if that’s being fixed or not. Would you want to raise your kids in a dorm room or a studio apartment?
Right, so let’s say we do it, we have 15 minute cities everywhere and I want to see my aunt in Arizona, but I live in Seattle. Now what? How do you feel about motorcycles, electric bikes and scooters? Let’s say that I hate Amazon and want to keep small businesses in business, we don’t have that type of small business in my 15 minute city, do I bike 3 hours to the next one? Are you going to remake the economy?
You guys have to be trolling me, right? This is my last comment because I suspect you guys are.
I think 15 minute cities are great, people should accommodate the people that want them
The 15 minute cities won’t solve the corporation problem of hogging all of the resources and it seems like a distraction from them being the problem.
You need transit, not everyone is 18-24, naive, and healthy with no kids
we have 15 minute cities everywhere and I want to see my aunt in Arizona, but I live in Seattle. Now what?
Take a plane, a train, or an automobile!
How do you feel about motorcycles, electric bikes and scooters?
I’m fine with them. I’d prefer that they stayed off sidewalks, but that’s my only real thought on them.
Let’s say that I hate Amazon and want to keep small businesses in business, we don’t have that type of small business in my 15 minute city, do I bike 3 hours to the next one?
If you want to. I think a lot of the other commenters suggested using public transit. You could also drive. Maybe they do mail order?
You need transit, not everyone is 18-24, naive, and healthy with no kids
All of the comments I’ve read haven’t mentioned transit, or have been transit positive.
It sounds like you’re being deliberately obtuse, but just in case you’re genuine…
Cars simply weren’t a thing people had general access to before the 1950s and yet the economy and people did just fine. The huge majority of “getting around” that people need to do are going to work, going to school, shopping and entertainment. Do you really feel like having a 10 minute walk to work would be so hellish and dystopian? Wouldn’t it be nice if your kids could ask to go play in the park and they could just go 5 minutes down the road without you having to drive them? You could be a regular at that nice taco place down on the corner. You could buy more fresh produce if the grocery was across the street. If you do need to go to another city or go a farther distance, are you under the impression that people want to eliminate cars entirely? Cars are an amazing invention but the issue is over reliance, not their existence. By all means, drive or take a train an hour or two out of town but not everyone wants to have to drive to take their kids to school, sporting events or friends houses, or just to go grab food somewhere, or to see a movie, or all the other mundane daily trips that are part of every day life.
Only thing urban planners seem to understand is if you make driving more difficult somehow this magically makes mass transit better instead of people just refusing to go to that area. Also that poor people don’t have a right to park their car.
You think the rest of the world just, I guess, found the natural transit in the ground? The rest of the world built public transit systems to satisfy the people. America did not, to satisfy the companies.
to pre-empt the standard responses:
“america is very big”, yes yes so is the rest of the world, we managed.
“America isn’t as dense”, yup the rest of the world has low densities, too. We still build infrastructure, though
“It’s very expensive and we already bought a car and made all these empty dead suburban environments, it would take people three hours by bus to get to a store”, yup America made its choices there, the rest of the world zones so that people live near the infrastructure they need and can get the things they need via transit.
You have a very rosy view of “the rest of the world.” The truth is that “the rest of the world” includes a vast array of different urban environments, some of which are very well-planned and executed, and others of which are, not so much, shall we say. This binary between the US and “the rest of the world” is bullshit and is intellectually lazy. I can only think that you have no formal education in urban studies.
The binary is between the parts of the world that had the resources and technology to build mass transit and decided not to, and the rest of the world that did. It just happens to fall into America vs. the rest of the world.
I don’t know why you want to throw in jabs about random people’s education level. That is super weird.
I live in France, about 30 minutes from a major city. There is transit, but it’s not good, and has very few stops near where I live. Grocery shopping has to be done by car or bike as there aren’t any shops in the village. European cities are extremely well served by transit, but outside the metropolitan areas, cars are still king.
Impossible. This thread has shown me that literally all of Europe has year round Christmas markets with form of mechanical transportation. An entire continent reduce to pre-horse travel. Enough with facts feelings are all that is real.
It’s a really interesting thread. Cities are great, suburb & rural can be great and transit is great. 15 minute cities are great goals, but it’s not a one size fits all situation. I can’t figure out how they think these utopian 15 minute cities would work if they don’t have a working transit built in. It’s so weird, do they think handicapped people can bike and walk everywhere or don’t exist? Do they think parents love sending their kids down the block to play by themselves instead of the backyard? Their choices aren’t going to make sense for a ton of people. They’re either right out of school or trolling, I can’t tell which.
It’s so weird, do they think handicapped people can bike and walk everywhere or don’t exist?
As a handicapped person myself, it really baffles me how people think car oriented infrastructure is so much better for us. I am a wheelchair user, and I live in a 15 minute neighborhood. Getting around in my wheelchair is a million times simpler there than in my old car-centric suburb, because the same disabilities that make me wheelchair bound also prevent me from driving. Which mean that in a car-centric environment I do one of the following:
a) Rely on the generosity of friends and family to cart me around at their convenience, or
b) Utilize shared access rides, which are door to door, but take longer than using public transit, or
c) Roll myself to underserved suburban bus stops over badly maintained sidewalk, and pray I make it on time.
None of which are appealing.
Meanwhile, in my 15 minute city:
The buses often run at 10 to 15 minute intervals (vs 30 to 60 minutes in the suburb),
Handicapped people are more affected by the inverse. Small cities are great, car-centric communes are terrible for them. They’ve worked out their own mobility issues, but those solutions are interrupted when the crosswalks and pedestrian bridges are affected. If the “solution” involves getting in and out of a car repeatedly, it’s often cumbersome for people in wheelchairs.
The point on kids really relates more to neighborhood safety, and how often people interact with a community. Often, kids should be trusted to go down the street to the park. All our old Saturday newspaper comics involve kids going places themselves on foot or bike instead of constantly “being dropped off”.
I can’t figure out how they think these utopian 15 minute cities would work if they don’t have a working transit built in. It’s so weird
Isn’t the assumption that the 15 minute city is a neighbourhood in a functional city? There should be transit.
It’s so weird, do they think handicapped people can bike and walk everywhere or don’t exist?
I lived in something like a fifteen minute neighbourhood. I saw people in wheelchairs around. They appeared to use the same amenities as everyone else.
Do they think parents love sending their kids down the block to play by themselves instead of the backyard?
Our kids preferred going to playgrounds because the toys and play structures were better. And they ran into kids they knew.
Their choices aren’t going to make sense for a ton of people.
I’m not sure what would be bad about a fifteen minute neighbourhood. It’s just a normal neighbourhood, with stores, schools, work, and civic infrastructure.
As far as I can tell, a fifteen minute neighbourhood only adds to what exists, rather than taking away.
You never even seen the Netherlands, have you? Also, what I tell everyone who comes up with these kind of non-questions, no one is taking your car away. Cars still exist in Europe, but they are not the default, they are used for what they make sense, making irregular trips of 100+Km. But chances are, that there is a train that serves the route anyway.
Handicapped people: most have access to electric micro-mobility vehicles that are legal to use on bike lanes. For those who can’t use micro vehicles, there’s still cars, and vans. They still exists. They weren’t magicked away.
Kids: My sister lives in the outskirts of Madrid, her neighborhood is littered with dozens of parks of all kinds, all less than 10 minute walks. My 10 y.o. nephew can go on his own to many parks without ever having to set foot on asphalt, cross a road or get on neither a bus or a car. He has never had to play on a street. They live in an urban tower that, while they don’t have a personal green cancer backyard, they have a skatepark, a playground, a pet park, sport courts (tennis, badminton, soccer and basketball), a running trail and a botanical garden, all within walking distance.
The first time I went to Amsterdam I was very surprised to see children just wandering about coming from or going to a nearby park. It’s not something you really see here in the US.
Not anymore. It used to be the rule in the US. Even as recently as the 70s and 80s when I was a kid, we’d be gone from home all day everyday when not in school, just roaming around town and keeping ourselves entertained, usually on bikes or skateboards. We got up to a lot of mischief and hijinks, but nothing too serious, and we had a great time doing it.
You might want to go through my comments again, lol. You seem very upset about me somewhat disagreeing with you.
Handicapped people: most have access to electric micro-mobility vehicles that are legal to use on bike lanes. For those who can’t use micro vehicles, there’s still cars, and vans. They still exists. They weren’t magicked away.
This comment really is funny when you look at it. First you’re pretty patronizing that they have access to the bike lanes too! I know in Seattle, you’d be crazy to use the bike lanes if you were handicapped. And 15 minute cites usually have “walkable” in the tagline.
They live in an urban tower that, while they don’t have a personal green cancer backyard, they have a skatepark, a playground, a pet park, sport courts (tennis, badminton, soccer and basketball), a running trail and a botanical garden, all within walking distance.
Great, now compare that to a mini or studio apartment in Seattle. Better yet, compare that to an apartment on the South side of Chicago. As like anything else, if you’re wealthy (not poor or middle class), everything is awesome.
I don’t know why you’re arguing with me, your black and white stance is confusing and tone deaf.
My family is quite the opposite of wealthy. It has nothing to do with class. The fact that the US did cities wrong doesn’t mean that somehow 15 min cities don’t work. I read the whole thread and you seem to be either really confused or rather short of reading comprehension. You seem to have the impression that a bike lane is an asphalt gutter next to the cars where only athletic young men in full sport gear ride bicycles. But in Europe bike lanes are segregated wide, well conditioned spaces, where kids, people with mobility limitations, adults and elderly all share a slow speed lane safe and protected from cars.
The fact that the US did cities wrong doesn’t mean that somehow 15 min cities don’t work.
I’m not saying they don’t? Wow, there must be a language barrier or something. I’m saying yes they can and do work, but some people want something else.
Yeah, and the people who want something else use the same arguments and rhetoric questions you have used all over this thread that are all fallacies meant to shutdown promotion of the concept because they feel personally threatened by the idea of stopping oil dependence.
LMAO, no. I’m not trying to shut down anyone. I’m trying to say that you guys are naive to think that everyone wants to live in a walkable city. I think a good portion of young people do, which is great and they should be accommodated. You also need transit to support those walkable cities or do you think getting there if you don’t live there, magically happens without cars. Please don’t tell me you’re an urban planner.
They have transit to back that up though. There are plenty of smallish towns and rural areas that don’t have any transit at all.
At the same time, those towns are hella compact, such that 90+% of residents can walk to pretty much any retailer or store or other resource within 15-20 minutes. Yes, some people (farmers) live outside of town and there are some American-style housing in clumps outside of the town, but everyone mostly lives in tight clusters.
And even the tiny towns well away from other larger towns have busses that move people between towns on a fairly regular If infrequent basis (15-20 minutes apart). Only the larger population centres can afford to have public transport that comes every 5 minutes or so.
You also have to understand that in North America, a “significant separation between towns” is something like 100+km. In Germany, that term qualifies with as little as a 10km distance. It’s rare to find any population centre that is more than 20km away from its nearest neighbour.
lol that’s the frequency that the busses and trains near me operate during peak commute times. I finally broke down and bought a car. I’m American if you couldn’t tell…
Oof, in my city there’s one route that’s 40 minutes, and the rest are an hour+
If I lived in a different spot or had kids or anything, it’d be impossible for me to take the bus. I don’t blame people who don’t use it. It’s mostly used by homeless people.
It’s getting better though, slowly but surely :)
It doesn’t even exist near me and the roads aren’t even walkable. I’m in a relatively big city but on the edge of the suburbs.
Yeah, that’s what really sucks. I grew up in a similar place, and for me it’s a thousand times better to live in a place with transit (and, y’know, sidewalks…), regardless of how little funding it gets. Sorry :(
Yeah I’ve lived in Germany and the Netherlands and also big US cities with mediocre transit. Having zero non-car options sucks, especially as regulation and other economic factors are making the cost of cars outpace our already crazy inflation.
I think 15 minute cities are great if you have everything to back it up. All of the grocery stores and mini-box stores left downtown Seattle because a lot are work from home now. If people can work and live anywhere they want, they want nature. You need to have transit for that.
Edit: I’m trying to understand the downvotes, is this not being taught in urban planning? Is it just developers wanting to rent their spaces because their leases are closing out? Or is it naive people wanting to force their ideas without realizing humans are going to make decisions in the process as well? Super interesting thread.
One of the mistakes for which j think you are down voted is thinking you can’t have nature nearby if you live in a more dense cluster. Quite the opposite is true. People living in apartments 4 or 5 high leaves a lot more open space available for parks, playgrounds, etc. Suburban sprawl looking for “wanting nature and places in their backyard that kids can play” is exactly what destroys this space in cities in the first place…
As an American, I worked in Tokyo for a while and I would 100% raise a family in any sized walkable town or city with mass transit. You could walk to several stores or restaurants, the train station, the river, or several parks within 10 minutes.
They also have along with amazing transit, grocery stores within walking distance, like New York. Also, your preferences aren’t everyone’s preferences. Again, if you have the infrastructure to back it up, go for it. If you don’t, work towards this, but take into account all of the possible problems with it. No one was wishing they lived in the city during the beginning of the pandemic.
Can do that on my block. I often walk a few minutes to the train station.
This is just a tautology
I think water is great if it has two hydrogens for each oxygen
Even if you have most things nearby for day-to-day life but still need to travel an hour for any of: school, work, daycare, groceries, or even common leisure or entertainment activities, “green spaces”… Then that ain’t a 15 minute city.
Additionally, transit is absolutely included in 15 minute city concept - whether it be pedestrian, biking, bus, train, mixed-mode trips, cars*… It’s a holistic concept so of course these are all under the umbrella.
* yes even cars can be included, but in order for the others to be successful they are general de-prioritized in this model.
Edit: I’ll also add that I see “15-minute city” is an aspirational goal, and anything that moves us closer towards it tends to be good for the people that live there - and even if not fully achieved in a particular place, this type of hand-wringing about specific aspects in order to disregard the whole concept seems disingenuous at best.
But oxygen is what gives us life.
I’m going to have two hydrogen and two oxygen, thank you very much.
Not for long, but enjoy it while it lasts!
This is a huge generalization and you seem to imply that would mean populations spreading out into semi rural areas. Studies have shown people are happier with access to nature, but you seem to forget green spaces, parks and tree lined streets exist. I loved living in a walkable city and absolutely would again if I could afford it.
I know parks exist, that doesn’t mean the city is right for everyone. I’m glad you would love a great walkable city, I think they’re great too. Do you think that people would enjoy raising a family in a studio apartment?
You don’t think that 2+ bedroom apartments exist in the city?
If you’re about to say “oh of course but they’re unaffordable” then you admit that so many people want to live or have a family in a city that demand outstrips supply. If no one wanted to live in the city housing would be cheaper there. The lack of housing supply is another discussion entirely but put simply, zoning laws in the US are pretty stupid and plenty of other developed countries don’t have that problem.
They’re unaffordable because of price fixing, but go on. https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2022/11/rent-a-capitol-hill-apartment-from-one-of-these-companies-you-may-have-rights-under-antitrust-laws-to-compensation-as-lawsuit-alleges-price-fixing-violations-in-seattle/
And if nobody was willing to pay those prices, would that be a profitable or effective strategy?
You don’t think that 2+ bedroom apartments exist in the city?
If you’re about to say “oh of course but they’re unaffordable” then you admit that so many people want to live or have a family in a city that demand outstrips supply. If no one wanted to live in the city housing would be cheaper there. The lack of housing supply is another discussion entirely but put simply, zoning laws in the US are pretty stupid and plenty of other developed countries don’t have that problem.
I think the downvotes are the blanket statement of “if people can work and live anywhere they want, they want nature”
I like nature just fine and have worked from home for most of the past ten years but you couldn’t get me to give up the city for the country and I’ve had the option for a long time. I moved from Atlanta to Seattle because i preferred the opposite of what you said people want.
Seattle has a shit ton of nature in the city though, and we’re also getting a decent transit. We have greenery crawling up the concrete everywhere.
Atlanta is called the city in the trees/forest, in comparison Seattle may as well be the concrete jungle
Let’s get something straight, I love the city. I love and live in Seattle and love it too, even with all of its quirks. I think a walkable city is great. It is not for everyone and people have to figure that out.
They have micro apartments that were a nightmare before the pandemic, it was the best that some could afford. Granted, there was a lot of rent price fixing going on as well, not sure if that’s being fixed or not. Would you want to raise your kids in a dorm room or a studio apartment?
Prospect Park is often called Brooklyn’s back yard.
The fifteen minute city is the infrastructure.
Right, so let’s say we do it, we have 15 minute cities everywhere and I want to see my aunt in Arizona, but I live in Seattle. Now what? How do you feel about motorcycles, electric bikes and scooters? Let’s say that I hate Amazon and want to keep small businesses in business, we don’t have that type of small business in my 15 minute city, do I bike 3 hours to the next one? Are you going to remake the economy?
You guys have to be trolling me, right? This is my last comment because I suspect you guys are.
Good luck!
Take a plane, a train, or an automobile!
I’m fine with them. I’d prefer that they stayed off sidewalks, but that’s my only real thought on them.
If you want to. I think a lot of the other commenters suggested using public transit. You could also drive. Maybe they do mail order?
All of the comments I’ve read haven’t mentioned transit, or have been transit positive.
It sounds like you’re being deliberately obtuse, but just in case you’re genuine…
Cars simply weren’t a thing people had general access to before the 1950s and yet the economy and people did just fine. The huge majority of “getting around” that people need to do are going to work, going to school, shopping and entertainment. Do you really feel like having a 10 minute walk to work would be so hellish and dystopian? Wouldn’t it be nice if your kids could ask to go play in the park and they could just go 5 minutes down the road without you having to drive them? You could be a regular at that nice taco place down on the corner. You could buy more fresh produce if the grocery was across the street. If you do need to go to another city or go a farther distance, are you under the impression that people want to eliminate cars entirely? Cars are an amazing invention but the issue is over reliance, not their existence. By all means, drive or take a train an hour or two out of town but not everyone wants to have to drive to take their kids to school, sporting events or friends houses, or just to go grab food somewhere, or to see a movie, or all the other mundane daily trips that are part of every day life.
Why did they have roads? lol
Same reason the Romans built roads 2000 years before cars existed. When was the last time you went hiking? Or even for a walk on a muddy trail?
Only thing urban planners seem to understand is if you make driving more difficult somehow this magically makes mass transit better instead of people just refusing to go to that area. Also that poor people don’t have a right to park their car.
I enjoy when someone shows up to prove the meme true
That the US doesn’t have great transit? You’re totally correct. :)
That you can’t imagine how it possibly could.
You think the rest of the world just, I guess, found the natural transit in the ground? The rest of the world built public transit systems to satisfy the people. America did not, to satisfy the companies.
to pre-empt the standard responses:
“america is very big”, yes yes so is the rest of the world, we managed.
“America isn’t as dense”, yup the rest of the world has low densities, too. We still build infrastructure, though
“It’s very expensive and we already bought a car and made all these empty dead suburban environments, it would take people three hours by bus to get to a store”, yup America made its choices there, the rest of the world zones so that people live near the infrastructure they need and can get the things they need via transit.
I can’t believe you managed to fit all those words in their mouth. That’s kinda impressive. Like word tetris.
You have a very rosy view of “the rest of the world.” The truth is that “the rest of the world” includes a vast array of different urban environments, some of which are very well-planned and executed, and others of which are, not so much, shall we say. This binary between the US and “the rest of the world” is bullshit and is intellectually lazy. I can only think that you have no formal education in urban studies.
The binary is between the parts of the world that had the resources and technology to build mass transit and decided not to, and the rest of the world that did. It just happens to fall into America vs. the rest of the world.
I don’t know why you want to throw in jabs about random people’s education level. That is super weird.
I live in France, about 30 minutes from a major city. There is transit, but it’s not good, and has very few stops near where I live. Grocery shopping has to be done by car or bike as there aren’t any shops in the village. European cities are extremely well served by transit, but outside the metropolitan areas, cars are still king.
Impossible. This thread has shown me that literally all of Europe has year round Christmas markets with form of mechanical transportation. An entire continent reduce to pre-horse travel. Enough with facts feelings are all that is real.
It’s a really interesting thread. Cities are great, suburb & rural can be great and transit is great. 15 minute cities are great goals, but it’s not a one size fits all situation. I can’t figure out how they think these utopian 15 minute cities would work if they don’t have a working transit built in. It’s so weird, do they think handicapped people can bike and walk everywhere or don’t exist? Do they think parents love sending their kids down the block to play by themselves instead of the backyard? Their choices aren’t going to make sense for a ton of people. They’re either right out of school or trolling, I can’t tell which.
As a handicapped person myself, it really baffles me how people think car oriented infrastructure is so much better for us. I am a wheelchair user, and I live in a 15 minute neighborhood. Getting around in my wheelchair is a million times simpler there than in my old car-centric suburb, because the same disabilities that make me wheelchair bound also prevent me from driving. Which mean that in a car-centric environment I do one of the following:
a) Rely on the generosity of friends and family to cart me around at their convenience, or b) Utilize shared access rides, which are door to door, but take longer than using public transit, or c) Roll myself to underserved suburban bus stops over badly maintained sidewalk, and pray I make it on time.
None of which are appealing.
Meanwhile, in my 15 minute city:
And you’re not blind and don’t have a caretaker I assume.
Correct on both counts.
Handicapped people are more affected by the inverse. Small cities are great, car-centric communes are terrible for them. They’ve worked out their own mobility issues, but those solutions are interrupted when the crosswalks and pedestrian bridges are affected. If the “solution” involves getting in and out of a car repeatedly, it’s often cumbersome for people in wheelchairs.
The point on kids really relates more to neighborhood safety, and how often people interact with a community. Often, kids should be trusted to go down the street to the park. All our old Saturday newspaper comics involve kids going places themselves on foot or bike instead of constantly “being dropped off”.
Isn’t the assumption that the 15 minute city is a neighbourhood in a functional city? There should be transit.
I lived in something like a fifteen minute neighbourhood. I saw people in wheelchairs around. They appeared to use the same amenities as everyone else.
Our kids preferred going to playgrounds because the toys and play structures were better. And they ran into kids they knew.
I’m not sure what would be bad about a fifteen minute neighbourhood. It’s just a normal neighbourhood, with stores, schools, work, and civic infrastructure.
As far as I can tell, a fifteen minute neighbourhood only adds to what exists, rather than taking away.
No, there are people in this thread saying that 15 minute cities are the transit. You’d think that would be the case.
Look again at this thread, lol.
Neighborhoods that promote no cars would be great as long as they have the transit to back it up, imo as well.
Dig deeper and you’ll see the crazy.
You never even seen the Netherlands, have you? Also, what I tell everyone who comes up with these kind of non-questions, no one is taking your car away. Cars still exist in Europe, but they are not the default, they are used for what they make sense, making irregular trips of 100+Km. But chances are, that there is a train that serves the route anyway.
Handicapped people: most have access to electric micro-mobility vehicles that are legal to use on bike lanes. For those who can’t use micro vehicles, there’s still cars, and vans. They still exists. They weren’t magicked away.
Kids: My sister lives in the outskirts of Madrid, her neighborhood is littered with dozens of parks of all kinds, all less than 10 minute walks. My 10 y.o. nephew can go on his own to many parks without ever having to set foot on asphalt, cross a road or get on neither a bus or a car. He has never had to play on a street. They live in an urban tower that, while they don’t have a personal green cancer backyard, they have a skatepark, a playground, a pet park, sport courts (tennis, badminton, soccer and basketball), a running trail and a botanical garden, all within walking distance.
The first time I went to Amsterdam I was very surprised to see children just wandering about coming from or going to a nearby park. It’s not something you really see here in the US.
Not anymore. It used to be the rule in the US. Even as recently as the 70s and 80s when I was a kid, we’d be gone from home all day everyday when not in school, just roaming around town and keeping ourselves entertained, usually on bikes or skateboards. We got up to a lot of mischief and hijinks, but nothing too serious, and we had a great time doing it.
You might want to go through my comments again, lol. You seem very upset about me somewhat disagreeing with you.
This comment really is funny when you look at it. First you’re pretty patronizing that they have access to the bike lanes too! I know in Seattle, you’d be crazy to use the bike lanes if you were handicapped. And 15 minute cites usually have “walkable” in the tagline.
Great, now compare that to a mini or studio apartment in Seattle. Better yet, compare that to an apartment on the South side of Chicago. As like anything else, if you’re wealthy (not poor or middle class), everything is awesome.
I don’t know why you’re arguing with me, your black and white stance is confusing and tone deaf.
My family is quite the opposite of wealthy. It has nothing to do with class. The fact that the US did cities wrong doesn’t mean that somehow 15 min cities don’t work. I read the whole thread and you seem to be either really confused or rather short of reading comprehension. You seem to have the impression that a bike lane is an asphalt gutter next to the cars where only athletic young men in full sport gear ride bicycles. But in Europe bike lanes are segregated wide, well conditioned spaces, where kids, people with mobility limitations, adults and elderly all share a slow speed lane safe and protected from cars.
I’m not saying they don’t? Wow, there must be a language barrier or something. I’m saying yes they can and do work, but some people want something else.
Yeah, and the people who want something else use the same arguments and rhetoric questions you have used all over this thread that are all fallacies meant to shutdown promotion of the concept because they feel personally threatened by the idea of stopping oil dependence.
LMAO, no. I’m not trying to shut down anyone. I’m trying to say that you guys are naive to think that everyone wants to live in a walkable city. I think a good portion of young people do, which is great and they should be accommodated. You also need transit to support those walkable cities or do you think getting there if you don’t live there, magically happens without cars. Please don’t tell me you’re an urban planner.