This meme is from 2004. History repeats itself.
It’s important to note that the real disparity may be even far worse.
OCHA-OPT (the committee gathering this data) is strict about verifying validity of Palestinian casualties, requiring two independent, verified and non-affiliated sources. Casualties in Israel, however, they trust the media at face value. They also exclude a lot of Palestinian casualties even when verified in certain situations. Example, and I quote them:
People who were killed or injured in conflict-related incidents that took place in Israel and did not involve residents of the oPt are also excluded.oPt (occupied Palestinian territories) are the areas that Israel does not directly oversee. So most of Israel is not oPt by their criteria.
Israel is notorious for restricting journalists reporting on Israeli crimes, and has murdered journalists countless of times, like last year the Christian Palestinian Shireen Abu Akleh reporting on the forced expulsion of Palestinians from Sheikh Jarrah (so not even in a war zone area). This causes many casualties to go unverified and thus undocumented.
And Israel has been caught lying before about its own casualties, like the 40 beheaded babies.
Take that as you will.
That 2023 number is about to get way more lopsided.
Wouldn’t be surprised if it ends up the same ratio as 2014
They’ve got a long road ahead of them to kill that many people but i admit the thought occurred to me as well. There does seem to be a ratio being followed here.
Given Israel’s rhetoric, they are literally letting us know the number will climb much higher. But the West is too busy condemning Hamas, and will sponsor yet another genocide in the modern era.
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Imagine how things may go if Israel attempted to use Jews as human shields against Hamas.
You mean like putting many settlements and civilians right on the border of Gaza, a concentration camp and active war Zone? Or allowing a rave dance to occur at the gates of a concentration camp and active war zone, and next to a military base that would be targeted by Hamas? And sprinkle in some IDF tanks while you’re at it.
Wait, we don’t have to imagine it.
Didn’t look like you’re replying to anyone supporting Hamas.
Also, there is an alternative #2 in your scenario. “Know your enemy would lose too much western support too readily if they were to fine on all the civilian targets they would like to”.
So seriously, fuck the closet racist xenophobes masquerading as defenders of freedom and democracy here. Tools of the state.
I’m mostly pro Palestine, but using this picture with the subtitle ‘history repeats itself’ and therefore portraying what happened at the festival, and the other slaughter missions as a tiny goofy missile, feels kinda disproportionate. Don’t you think?
No. Hundreds of thousands will die in response to hundreds dying. The comic is still fully accurate even if “a single missile” is still condemnable.
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Shall we begin an era of endless terror by proving it works?
Just look at the US military, we already have
This isn’t a good reason
I felt just like this after 9/11. I don’t know enough about your country to tell you what the right thing to do is. But I wish that the USA could go back in time and just gradually assassinate Al Queda with the CIA instead or something. Those occupations were doomed from the start.
The CIA is literally the reason the Al Queda exists. has consistently been the biggest force funding and training terrorists groups around the world. Al Queda is just the modern iteration on the Mujahideen whom US was propping up in the 80s.
Yup. Listen to the latest season of Blowback podcast. CIA sheltered/evacuated a bunch of Al Quaeda leaders right before the invasion of Afghanistan began.
The US government at the time did not want to do any such thing. Project For A New American Century, the think tank most of the Bush administration officials came from, openly wrote about how they were hoping for a “new Pearl Harbor” they could use to take the US into war with Iraq. Later, President Bush got a memo about how Al Qaeda was going to attack the US mainland and he did nothing. Then 9/11 happened and the government lied the country into a war with Iraq. What part of this makes you think they were going to do anything about Al Qaeda (other than giving them more funds maybe)?
You’re right, I wish they had done the opposite.
Would’ve been living in a better world. (Cue that one Al Gore alternate reality SNL skit.)
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Ah yes, those Hamas fighters couldn’t tell the difference between a DJ’d festival and a military base.
Stop making shit up. Were the babies accidental military combatants?
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https://www.reuters.com/world/nato-ministers-shown-horrific-video-hamas-attack-2023-10-12/
No only are you wrong, you’re literally defending people who again literally massacred babies.
You’re sick in the head.
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I’m not talking about who shoots the biggest rockets and who kills more people here. I’m talking about portraying a literal slaughter fest as a tiny lil rocket, mosquito sting or whatever, which causes no harm at all. This is not the right comic & subtitle to show what happened ‘today’. At least in my opinion. Because it’s not disproportionate to what happened.
But feel free to disagree, it you think it is. To me OP is more or less mocking the victims and I find it distasteful. Especially because people were involved, who weren’t even culturally part of this ethnical conflict in the first place.
And no I’m not part of team both sides bad, because this conflict involves more than two sides and in the end people in Gaza suffer the most.
Where did I mock the victims? Do not put words in my mouth. Can you not make a half-sound argument without lying?
By disproportianting what happened. How you can not see that is beyond me. Just try to reflect on what you posted. Slaughtering hundred civilians = tiny mosquito rocket.
‘History repeats itself’… but this level didn’t happen before.
From what I can see, @matcha_addict@lemy.lol is not mocking the victims of this tragedy, but rather criticising the media for writing about the israeli deaths caused by the hamas attack, yet hardly making a sound about the palestine deaths caused by israel.
It IS NOT a disproportionate representation. THAT’S THE POINT.
I am very sorry you fail to realize what death Israel will doll out in response, but this comic is completely accurate in the proportions displayed.
You LITERALLY have fighter jets and bombers striking back against … paragliders with guns…
Again, NO ONE except fucking losers are saying Hamas did anything good. That doesn’t make murdering dozens of thousands of Palestinians OK.
I don’t think disproportionate response doctrine from countries like the US and Israel should come as a surprise after more than half a century of conflict. Why murder 100 innocent people of your opponent when you know they will murder 1000 innocents of your people in response?
The issue isn’t whether anyone is surprised by it.
When it comes to war, there can be no holdbacks because hesitation means life or death.
So anyone who follows the Geneva Conventions is a doomed fool?
“history repeats itself” as in the people who only condemn needless killing when Hamas does it, but ignore the Palestinian cause the rest of the time.
It’s almost like motivation, methods, intentions, and circumstances matter and not just body count. For example, intentionally targeting civilians to maximize civilian deaths is not the same as accidentally killing civilians with collateral damage while trying to minimize civilian deaths.
Guess which side this is, then:
Scores of people, mainly women and children, have been killed in multiple air strikes on the main road connecting north and south Gaza, as people carried out an Israeli order to flee their homes.
According to the Ministry of Health, at least 70 people have been killed in three separate air strikes on the road, with the latest killing at least 40.
The Israeli army said in a statement on Friday that civilians must leave Gaza City in the north, and that they would not be allowed to return “until we say so” and until “a statement is issued allowing this”.
However, locals have reported a number of attacks on the Salah al-Din Road since then. Survivors, speaking to local media, implored others not to make the journey for fear of being targeted by the Israelis.
“Do not leave,” a distraught survivor of the attacks told local media.
“They bombed the convoy. They bombed it on Salah al-Din Road. They bombed the ambulances.”
Another survivor said the attacks were a “direct targeting of women and children”.
“I was in the truck. There were about 200 people. 90 percent were women and children. We took the main road that the entire world knew we were taking. My entire family were with me. Out of nowhere, they dropped a bomb. Everything was black and I lost conscience for 10 mins,” they told local media.
“When I woke up I saw a mother lying with her baby, whose brain was right next to him. I heard the ambulances then they bombed again. I took cover and after a few minutes tried to check the damage, then they bombed again.”
When Israeli soldiers are bragging about raping and torturing people, it’s very clear what their intentions are
Source?
That’s troubling if true, and if it is, do you believe said soldiers speak for the entire Israeli government? Hamas’s atrocities are official policy.
Thanks for the link.
So one officer 7 years ago, who had the book thrown at him for his crimes by Israel. His actions are clearly opposed by his government and he was punished for his behavior. This isn’t the smoking gun @matcha_addict was implying it is.
Do you think Hamas will punish its own rapists, murderers, and kidnappers?
The officer, whose name remains barred from publication, served in the Defense Ministry’s Civil Administration, which is tasked with overseeing the day-to-day management of the West Bank. The officer, a major, was responsible for issuing permits for Palestinians to enter and work in Israel, a position of power that he repeatedly exploited in order to receive sexual favors from Palestinians.
Wow, you sure dismissed that as an isolated incident real quick!
I’m sure it never happened again now that they caught the only guy who got caught for doing it!
Hamas is not a state or government. It is a militia to fight occupation. It is nowhere near as organized as Israel with its governing body. You cannot equate the two.
Israel does not oppose this. There are mountains of evidence of Israelis torturing and raping children, pregnant women and elderly Palestinians. There is mountains of evidence of Palestinians being burned alive, or forced to destroy their own homes with their bare hands. The magnitude of cruelty is unmatched.
Do you want more evidence? I am happy to provide. But it seems you reject it even when presented evidence.
That’s just one of countless examples from a two seconds of googling. It’s the height of intellectual dishonesty to try and frame it as an isolated incident.
Hamas’ official policy is resisting occupation and massacre, not committing it.
Hamas’ official policy is resisting occupation and massacre, not committing it.
Hamas’ official policy is genocide and they just committed a massacre last week.
I addressed something similar to the first article you linked in another comment. The gist is that, no, that is not their official policy, and that contradicts with their official charter, posted on their official website.
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The burden of proof lies on the person making a claim. But sure, I’ll still respond. From Hamas’ official website:
Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.
Did they just downvote you for asking a source? is this reddit all over again?
while trying to minimize civilian deaths
If that’s what they’re trying to do, they really fucking suck at it.
And the motivation, methods, intentions, and circumstances don’t matter a bit to the victims and their loved ones.
(They’re definitely not trying to do that either.)
While they do certainly look different, the end result of a death by malice or by ignorance is the same.
This is nothing new. Often the actions of Israel are portrayed in the worst way possible. As a quick example: The UN considers everyone under 18 a child, hamas starts recruiting at 14. When the IDF does a raid and kills one of these members the Arab media screams „Isreal has slaughtered children“
This is why I switched to being more pro Israel
Ignoring of course the countless children they kill who aren’t part of hamas. The ratio of children to adults killed by Israel can only be reached by doing it on purpose.
You “switching sides” because you don’t like the media reporting on these murders is a joke and I can only assume a lie, because it doesn’t make sense.
The media reporting stuff doesn’t change what is happening nor the morals and ethics involved. Silly to blame the media for you choosing to support the murder of innocents.
It’s on purpose, but on the hamas side, they use children and civilians in general as human meat shields. They fire their rockets from schools and hospitals, hide their equipment in residential areas. Just to scream „Israel bad“ when one of these outpost gets attacked
How convenient, when israel kills civilians its because palestine is hiding behind them, in their own country, being bombed. Its only heartless civilian massacres the other way around.
It seems so, if you gloss over the fact that Hamas is using unguided rockets to throw in the general direction of Israel and Israel is using precision ammunition to target the places the first were fired from.
So civilians killed by israel are even more egregious then. Like that strike on evacuees that just happened.
You’re suggesting that intent doesn’t matter, causing accidental civilian deaths while defending one’s self is an act morally equivalent to intentionally targeting and murdering civilians. I disagree. In most legal systems and ethical systems intent matters a lot.
Don’t try to claim moral superiority in a blood feud where both sides commit atrocities.
As if the cartoon this thread is about wasn’t claiming moral superiority for the other side.
Im mainly here to give the „Hamas is a resistance movement“ crowd a reality check
They are a violent resistance movement, opposing a violent colonialist movement.
Israel is expanding into the West Bank, not Gaza. They are resisting nobody. Israel even removed all of its citizens from that area. They are terrorists. They are founded by and doing the bidding for Iran.
Yes the Israelis don’t kill children for throwing rocks and then call them soldiers
I’d like to add even more context: ~45% of Palestine is under the age of 14.
Is condom use against their religion?
Palestinians do not have consistent access to clean water, no I don’t think they have consistent access to condoms.
“Palestinian women are not having lots of children because they don’t know about contraception, or can’t access contraception,” says Sara Randall, an anthropologist at University College London, who co-authored the 2006 investigation. “So one has to conclude that they actually want lots of children.” source
FYI links to her study, about Demography, not access to contraception - lead to a 404 page.
Here’s a prrtty informal survey about Gazan access to contraception, it sort of suggests they have, like I said, inconsistent access to contraception.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31856794/
The article you linked to makes many excellent points. When you’re poor, bored, and chock full of bombing-induced PTSD, having many kids is seen as a good idea.
Yes, it’s not a perfect caricature, Crimea river
Rules of the internet: you can safely discard everything that comes before the “, but”
If ignoring context helps you feed your bias, go for it.
The soundness of your argument should not depend on your stance. It is a common tactic to state that you are “pro-X” but criticize X, because people are more likely to sympathize with your criticism that way. The commenter you replied to is simply reminding us of this.
It isn’t anti-Semitism to criticize israel, it’s just noticing the obvious.
There are criticisms that are antisemitic. This isn’t one of them, though.
The only one I can think of is the idea that the Jews made up the Holocaust to guilt the West into giving up Israel… Which is indeed antisemetic, and asburd
My favorite was when Bernie Sanders was called antisemitic for criticizing Israel. His response was something along the lines of “It isn’t antisemitic to criticize a right-wing government in Israel.” It must’ve taken all the patience in the world to not add “you fucking toolbags”.
I’m not a Christian, but if Bernie was the second coming…
I’d be only slightly surprised
Fascists get away with conflating Judaism and Zionism because they don’t teach that Zionism has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism, and actually goes against a lot of their values. It’s actually been around for quite awhile; you know the crusades, when they went around killing a bunch of civilians to set up settlements? Those were Christian Zionists.
That’s why it’s anti-semitic to conflate the two. One is a religion and the other is a fascist genocidal colonialist movement. So next time you see some german lady shouting down a holocaust survivor for calling out Israeli apartheid (yes, this literally happened, and it was the Jewish guy who got punished) you’ll see it for what it is. It’s not complicated, it’s a clear cut case of modern day nazism.
Amen, who was it who said that the way to find out what group is getting away with too much bullshit is to look at what group you’re not allowed to criticize in any Circle?
Dafuq is this meme? civilians are civilians, regardless of the country religion or whatever the duck they’re born in.
If civilians are civilians…
"Amongst Israelis, 69% of those killed were civilians and 31% members of the IDF. The number of Israeli civilians killed, from attacks by Palestinian armed groups or individuals, has declined steadily, peaking in 2002 at an average of 22 deaths per month, and dropping markedly to an average of one civilian per month in 2007. 6/
In contrast to Israeli figures, however, Palestinian civilian fatalities have remained high. Palestinian civilians, killed by Israeli security forces, peaked with an average of 35 deaths per month in 2002, and again in 2004. In 2007 they dropped slightly to an average of ten civilian deaths per month."
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-208380/
Both sides kill civilians with abandon, and Israel is markedly better at it. Major media doesn’t seem to care very much about Palestinian civilians though.
But it’s not because of a lack of trying. Israel has the iron dome. Since then the death’s declined. They protect the civilians, that’s why the deaths declined.
Fair, but the point is that there is no side here playing by the no civilians rule, yet only Palestinians are called out for it.
The headline of the newest chapter in this shitshow for some reason is “How could Hamas attack Civilians?! Civilians?!” When the reality is that hasn’t really been a red line to the Israeli government or Hamas. Never has been.
Its evil all day, don’t get me wrong. The twisted thing is that somehow Israel is somehow perpetually marketed as being the good guys playing by the rules of engagement in spite of being no different with regards to killing non-enemy combatants.
Why are israeli civilian concert goers a global tragedy, while Palestinian civilian casualties past and present just another thursday? Why doesn’t the world lose its shit at 10 Palestinian civilians killed a month? Are Palestinians somehow universally recognized as having less value as human beings than Israelis?
Are Palestinians somehow universally recognized as having of less value as human beings than Israelis?
Yes, at least among Western media and its consumers
Because the terrorists are specifically targeting civilians whereas Israel is targeting military targets that the terrorists put a bunch of human shields around
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I’m sure the cutting of water and electricity to an entire population was something the Israelis were forced to do too…
It is the exact opposite. Israel continuously brutalizes even Palestinian civilians in their own territories, without any military supporting them whatsoever.
I’m glad we can agree that hamas are terrorists and not an actual military at least
What definition of “terrorist” are we using here by which Israel isn’t 100x more terrorist?
Because it’s not that easy. billions a year go into Gaza as a humanitarian aid each year. So the world cares. The sad thing is, the 24h news cycle isn’t interested in a thing that happens regularly but at outlier. You also don’t get a report every time the iron dome successfully repelled an attack. The death of the people in Gaza is also „planned“ by Hamas to use as a tool to get support from the people and other Arab states, and to get footage to paint Israel as the most evil, to justify their dschihad
That’s a funny way to say “Israel has continued to fire at defenseless civilians”
I completely agree with you. Which is why when you look at the grotesque number of civilians Israel kills every year it’s pretty easy to condem them.
Do you somehow not realise that is exactly the point being made?
YES, because OP is typing words that can be misconstrued as being a shill or a bigoted asshole. I’m smart enough to recognize it if you point it out, but I’m not fucking psychic, and I’m the kind of person who believes in dream prophesies so that just shows that neither potential delusion nor intelligence have anything to do with people misreading things online. It’s just human and technical limitations, but your italics are clear so: if you don’t want people to be annoyed at you, maybe respond without being condescending.
How could you misconstrue their words that way?
Jesus Christ I had to scroll through like, 10 top level comments to find someone with a measure of reason. I’m actually stunned.
Israel kills more civilians.
Take a look at this guy’s other Palestine Israel Post and decide if you wanna upvote this terrorist enjoyer.
https://lemy.lol/post/11080592 for the curious.
On Lemmy, you firstly see the message before the messenger. That is something that makes it magical, it clears your self-history and allow you to have a free mind on ideas presented.
“The genocide must stop” is what you consider to be terrorism? Oh yeah, you must be from the west, where terrorism is resisting massacre.
there is no bigger terrorist than Israel.
This is highly misleading. Hamas is not palestine and vice versa. What israel is fighting against is hamas, who are cowardly hiding behind civilians. The only reason the israeli can survive thousands of rocket launch from hamas over the years was because of their superior defence system. Hamas’ own rocket sometimes fell into their own territory, killing palestinian, but many people would just shut their eyes to this.
Israel is fighting against all of Palestine, not just Hamas.
who are cowardly hiding behind civilians
Israel won’t let civilians outside of Gaza. They want Hamas to be among civilians. Moreover, Israel brutalizes Palestinians who live inside Israeli borders, without Hamas troops present.
I think you are stretching. They don’t want civilians mixed in with hamas. The political damage it does to them is not insignificant. But there is no way they can tell which people are civilians to let out and which are civilians. Not saying they are the good guys either though.
They absolutely do. Their goal is ethnic cleansing. Every Israeli policy is about forcing Palestinians outside of Palestine. Why else are most Palestinians never allowed to come back if they leave, or given hell for it in the minority cases that they are?
You can absolutely verify a civilian. Are you kidding me?!! You guys will say anything to justify keeping people in a concentrstjon camp. I can’t believe the degree of heartlessness.
As you claim others will say anything, you do litterally that. You claim to know the minds and intentions of how many people? Are you a mind reader? Clairvoyant? And I doubt you have knowledge of even 1% of the Isreali policies, yet claim they all have one goal.
Do you even know you can support a side without spewing false BS. There are plenty of reasonable arguments, but you choose to sound like someone on fox news instead. You hurt your cause more then help it.I did not mean literally every written rule of Israel. I obviously do not have the bandwidth to read them all. But Israel’s policy against Palestinians is that. I’m sure you knew what I meant.
Are you implying that the goal, either directly or indirectly, of the entire Middle East outside of Israel ISN’T ethnic cleansing? I’m pretty sure the second Israel can’t or chooses not to stand against Hamas as strongly as they are, they’ll be targets of pretty much every other nation in the region. The world hates jews, particularly that region. Both sides are absolute disgraces to humanity, and I’m not willing to call a blatant act of terrorism on either side in ANY way justified.
Why lump Palestinians with what corrupt governments installed by the West (like Israel) hundreds if not thousands of kilometers away have done?
We already know how Palestinians treated Jewish migrations prior to Israel’s creation. When Europe was persecuring jews, Palestinians were teaching Jewish refugees how to farm (because in many parts of Europe, they weren’t allowed to).
But your “we have to massacre Palestinians, because what if we don’t, have you not considered they may massacre us too???!!”. This colonial mindset is nonsensical.
What israel did was, they gave warnings to civilians whenever they target any building but there’s no perfect system that can precisely hit the target and prevent casualities. Do you see hamas doing the same? They indiscriminately send rockets that would’ve surely hit israel civilians if not for the iron dome. So from there, we can see who the bad guy is.
What good does a warning do?
Hey, I’m about to obliterate your neighborhood in 12 hours. Get ready.
Gee thanks, don’t know what I would’ve done. Now I’m sure you’ll at least let me seek refuge in the territories you occupy, Israel, right? Right?!!
Hamas missiles target military installations, not civilians. Israel has the modern weaponry to only target the militants, whereas Hamas doesn’t. Yet Israel’s casualties have magnitudes more of civilians than Hamas, despite their imprecise weapons.
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Hamas seems to have developed a home-grown rocket manufacturing capability
That exactly tells you why it’s so imprecise. Israel has weapons created by the world’s top rocket scientists and the most precise manufacturing facilities, and for Hamas it’s people who barely have couple hours of electricity per day putting something together in one of the most densely populated areas, full of rubble and destruction.
When I say they “target” military facilities, I mean that’s what they aim for. Not that they have the high military capabilities to never miss.
Moreover, Hamas has, in recent days, specifically targeted Israeli civilians
I don’t deny that there are individuals in Hamas who have targeted civilians or killed them needlessly. Hamas is a resistance militia and not a hive mind. Unfortunately, living your entire life in a concentration camp with limited food and electricity, watching families burning alive and buildings coming down may lead you to hate people who are rave dancing on the gates of your open air prison, or even the regular civilians. It is not rational, but it is bound to happen. And because of this, I blame Israel.
And I don’t blame Israel to absolve Hamas of blame. Hamas leadership is complicit in ignoring civilian killing, I do not deny this. But blaming Hamas will drive no significant change. The root cause of these issues is Israel. At the very least, the civilian killings are usually individual actions, and Hamas’ military campaigns target the military. Whereas for Israel, civilians are target, and Hamas is their tool to convince Israelis that bombing Gaza is good.
The difference is, hamas uses civilian buildings AS military buildings. They literally use their brethren as shields, so they can say “you can’t attack us or it’s a humanitarian crisis!”
Yes, bombing civilian buildings SUCKS, but we have to also at least acknowledge the wrongs of Hamas here, acknowledge how they’ve pretty much left no other options.
Their “warning” consists of shooting a smaller missile at the roof of a building a few minutes before the main missile. Obviously a great and super effective warning
Obviously that’s not the only way, but only if you’re willing to read sources other than from hamas sympathizers.
Sure, that is at least one way they utilize though. Not sure that was meant to be a dig or an offer, but I’m not even aware of any reputable sources that are hamas sympathizers. If a source supports hamas then they’d likely be either far-right islamists or the sort of “leftists” that can’t seem to recognize a reactionary right in front of them
What israel did was, they gave warnings to civilians whenever they target any building but there’s no perfect system that can precisely hit the target and prevent casualities.
“No Perfect System”
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-gaza-area-bombed-after-warning-to-move
This reminds me of that movie where the bad guy takes a bunch of hostages as a human shield and the good guy just kills all of them so he can kill the bad guy. Wait… that never happens
That movie was called Sri Lanka I believe
Wait what? Are you seriously comparing this to a movie?
Nah I’m saying you have less moral understanding than most basic hollywood movies.
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Upvote this to the front page so that lemmy world sees it.
Hard to notice something when you close your eyes and plug your ears
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One site is kidnapping children and senior citizens, raping them und displaying them in public. The other is demolishing buildings, where a terror organisation is hiding, with a 3h notice.
No offence but you fell for pollywood
The other is demolishing buildings, where a terror organisation is hiding, with a 3h notice.
How much CNN did you read to come to this conclusion?
Gaza is literally 5-11km thick the entire way down, with nearly 6,000 people per square kilometer. That’s half the density of New York, in significantly smaller buildings.
Where are these people going to go, when 30% of Gaza is indiscriminately carpet bombed? They’re not even allowed to leave the city. They can’t go to Egypt, they can’t go into the sea, and they can’t go to Israel. The roads are literally blocked, while 100,000+ people try to flee the bombing zones. Oh also, did I mention they no longer have a source of water and food?
Where do you find that they are indiscriminate carped bombed ? It’s mostly the other way around. And fun fact. Most of hamas‘s rockets land in Gaza, as they are shit. This kills civilians or injuries them in Gaza. And they get free healthcare in Israel. But Israel are the bad guys, I guess
Carpet bombing requires an air force. Israel has one and Palestine does not.
No it doesn’t, you can carped bomb with rockets to. Carpet bombing is a strategy
No you can’t carpet bomb with rockets. That’s not how rockets work.
Israel is the only party engaging in this specific war crime in this conflict.
I don’t think you know, what carpet bombing is, it’s the act of „bombing“ an area with a large amount of „bombs“. Bombs is a bit confusing, as it were mainly bombs in ww2, when it was first used. But nowadays it refers to explosives in general, indifferent of the method of delivery.
Firing a barrage of the grad rocket system is as much of carped bombing as payload of a b52
Carpet bombing is indiscriminately bombing a specific concentrated area oftentimes with unguided ordinance. That is neigh impossible to achieve with rockets. You could do that with missile systems but Palestine also doesn’t have many of those.
The fact is only Israel is capable of carpet bombing in this conflict.
Semantics, those rockets didn’t have a guidance system. Civilian deaths become inevitable when the Internet & international scorecard for favoritibility includes the number of martyrs.
No it isn’t semantics. You can’t carpet bomb with rockets just like you cannot with RPGs. It’s like you can’t shovel things with a hammer as it isn’t the tool for that job.
Israel just told them to evacuate the north HALF of Gaza. What are 7ntalking about??? Admit reality at least.
Exactly that. They gave them notice to evacuate. If they were indiscriminate carped bombing they would just do it. But they give them a heads up, so that civilians can leave the area
Yeah totally reasonable to tell people to leave half their “country” overnight.
Keep clowning, clown.
Better than the alternative of just dropping bombs on them. They are at war. They will retaliate for the raid, and isn’t that nice, that they at least care to minimise civilian casualties?
Everyone with two neurons to rub together knows their “notice” is nothing more than a fig leaf. They know it’s impossible for more of the people there to actually evacuate.
You my friend, are the embodiment of hypocrisy.
There is no good side here. Only an idiot would say otherwise.
Everything you’ve posted in this thread is bullshit.
I Hope you’ll realise that I was telling the truth. And hope that by the time, we still have an Israeli state.
Oh yes, they have fallen for UN provided statistics https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
6400 Palestinians killed compared to 300 isrealis? Totally just knocking down hamas’s headquarters every time!
Not to argue one side or the other, but that data most definitely does not include this recent attack.
If the numbers being reported are to be believed, then the number of Israeli fatalities has doubled if not tripled overnight.
I am not a fan of Hamas, I just have to ask, wtf are the Palestinians supposed to do, and if you aren’t expecting an animal you’ve backed into a corner to attack, wtf is wrong with you?
Those statistics are a preamble of why Hamas did this. I’m not at any point saying that it’s a good thing, I’m saying that violence is literally the only tool Palestine has.
Palestine has been given plenty of chances. They just choose to reject any compromise that doesn’t involve the expulsion of the Jews from the Holy Land.
You know that the UN isn’t a reliable source on that topic ? The council for humanitarian affairs is literally full of anti semites.
And it’s near impossible to differentiate between civilians and terrorist
The UN actually down plays Palestinian casualties. Other sources estimate them much higher.
Disagreement with Israel doesn’t make one an “antisemite.” I think Israel needs to read “the boy who cried wolf.”
No but criticism of Israel because their a Jewish state, does.
Regarding Amnesty International https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2022-000932-ASW_EN.html
The UNHRC is notorious anti Israel and condemning everything they do but also according to them „isis did nothing wrong“
and who do you trust then?
I can tell you who I don’t
Amisty International UN Human Right Council Arab Media
Those three have a proven anti semitic background.
Who do you trust then? Who’s reputable?
I bet they trust Times of Israel implicitly.
For those not in the know: Times of Israel is more anti-Palestinian than Ron DeSantis is anti-trans and almost as pro-Netanyahu as Trump is pro-Trump.
that wasnt my question.
But I still answered it. It’s just easier to name everyone I especially don’t trust, than Name the dozens I do.
Yeah , the usual pro-israel talk.
I can show you countless evidence of Isreal doing worse several times in the past but people like you don’t care and never will.
Same goes for you, you won’t accept, that israel maybe isn’t as bad as it’s made to be
Maybe if they stopped doing all the things that make them look awful we’d change our minds. But putting over 2 million people into an open air prison and constantly killing them and targeting children and even journalists and medics as they have? How could anyone think they aren’t bad, unless you just don’t care about any lives but Israeli lives.
Because they don’t do, what you just said.
Gaza isn’t a prison. Until the latest escalation, thousands would cross the boarder daily to go to/from work. Israel gave them humanitarian aid, gave them free healthcare l. Thousands of trucks crossed daily. Israel wants peace, that’s why they are normalising relations to the Saudis l, why they gave Sinai to Egypt. Hamas just wants Israel gone and constantly provokes them to keep the cycle of violence going
They would cross the border only if Israel let them with a work permit. They can’t even leave because they won’t be allowed back in, Palestinians have been stuck in camps for decades in other countries because of this.
If they won’t let you leave without permission, and won’t let you return if you flee them trying to kill you, how is this not a prison?
Shocker, you need a permit to cross the border between different jurisdictions
I saw enough dead child, women and men from the Israeli strikes on schools , hospitals and homes. The horrible hunting screams of fathers and mothers after loosing their children. The empty stare of the sole surviving childs and the ones holding their toddler sibling near the rubbles of their destroyed home, standing not far from the decapitated body of their mother. I saw it happens many and many times before. The expression “it’s a complicated situation” being etched in my mind as I read the responses feeling helpless that the worst crimes can be tossed behind these words. It’s not about accepting Isreal it’s seeing the atrocities they’ve committed countless times before remaining unpunished, disgustingly cheered and applauded many times.
But It’s okey. Humans will destroy themselves sooner or later and these atrocities will forcefully stop.
The difference is, hamas attacks out of hatred towards Israel and Israel attacks to destroy outposts of a terror organisation. Hamas intentional uses hospitals and schools as an outpost to use as a propaganda tool.
I agree civilian casualties are always bad, but you have to accept that Hamas has the goal to maximise them, even on the Gaza side - otherwise they would loose support.
The claim That their freedom fighters are categorized by us and our friends as terrorists will never work on me. The Ukrainian resistance aren’t called terrorists, the french resistance during ww2 weren’t called terrorists. Hamas are like them freedom fighters and the atrocities they commit mirrors that of the aggressor. Among hamas are the sole children left after an Israeli strike, the crazed fathers that lost their families. They want freedom and they fight for it !
The Ukrainian resistance aren’t called terrorists, the french resistance during ww2 weren’t called terrorists.
That’s probably because neither of those groups exhibited the mediaeval barbarity against civilians Hamas has been celebrating.
Hamas are like them freedom fighters and the atrocities they commit mirrors that of the aggressor.
Hamas is explicitly calling for genocide. “The aggressor,” is not. Israel goes to great lengths to minimize civilian deaths, even notifying targets of incoming airstrikes before they hit.
If you think these actions are morally equivalent your moral compass is broken. One side is trying to defend themselves and the other side is trying to eradicate every member of their opponent’s society.
They want freedom and they fight for it !
Perhaps they should negotiate for it rather than continually provoking an enemy they cannot defeat militarily and hiding among civilians. That would prevent many needless civilian casualties.
Hamas has in their charter, calls for the extermination of the Israelites and rejection of peace settlements.
So yeah they’re terrorists.
France and Ukraine didn’t/don’t have the goal of exterminating all Germans/Russians.
There’s no world where Israel and Palestine peacefully coexist. And you can’t compromise or negotiate with someone whos official stance is “We want your race dead and will reject all peace deals”
Your logical fallacy is tu quoque.
And who asked ?
Both “sides” have human lives in the middle getting chewed up.
One of them also holds all the power to stop all of this
Also - A 3 hr notice before bombing civilian infrastructure! How quickly could you move out given 3 hours!?
Yeah, but they won’t. They have their stated goal of wanting to erase all Jews from this earth.
Israel wants to eradicate itself!?
That is not their goal. Stop spreading misinformation and fake news.
I’m not, it’s their goal and they repeated it multiply times since their founding
The document found on Hamas’ document disagrees:
EDIT: looks like it’s down, but here’s another copy: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full To quote:
Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.The document you linked is from 1988, from when Hamas was first founded and was a fringe insignificant islamist group (which Israel admitted to have propped up and wanted to become the prominent Palestinian group) with minimal popular support. This was revised when Hamas underwent radical change, many members joined it from the former PLO, and Hamas became the sole group resisting apartheid.
Here’s a quote from the same document:
The following are considered null and void: the Balfour Declaration, the British Mandate Document, the UN Palestine Partition Resolution, and whatever resolutions and measures that derive from them or are similar to them. The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah; it is also in violation of human rights that are guaranteed by international conventions, foremost among them is the right to self-determination.
…
Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea.
Seems pretty clear to me.
Those quotes seem pretty good to me. I never said that Hamas wants only partial liberation. They want no part of the region to ruled by apartheid, and I support that as well.
I don’t know how well educated you are with the whole history on Israel and Palestine but if you do yourself a favour and do so. You’d understand they more or less wrote „we don’t hate Jews, but we think they are evil and want them noblere near us“. Wich is a common sentiment in the Arab world. Because as a fun fact. The mufti of Palestine was involved in the planning of the holocaust.
we think they are evil and want them noblere near us
This contradicts what figures of Palestinian resistance have repeatedly said. Even now that Israel successfully assassinated them or sabotaged these groups and propped up Hamas, it is still fact that most Palestinians choose to coexist with the Jewish people.
You are projecting Israel’s genocidal behavior onto Palestinians. Everything you say is what is Israel already doing, not Palestine.
The mufti of Palestine was involved in the planning of the holocaust.
Dude’s been dead almost 50 years. I have a feeling there’s a bit more going on here.
which Israel admitted to have propped up and wanted to become the prominent Palestinian group
So, basically what Hillary did with Trump? Oh, that’s rich!
“They” meaning the civilians being killed?
Of course not. The Hamas Terrorists. You do want to spin everything into „Israel bad“ don’t you ?
No more than you want to spin everything as “Israel good”.
Go fuck yourself Settler
Go fuck yourself Settler
Wow what a valuable contribution to the discussion. Piss off.
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😘
This is a troll account I think
If being anti terrorist is trolling, than yes
You can’t genuinely think the Palestinian people are the ones doing that right? I refuse to believe you’re not just looking for random internet fights lmao
Im not doing any of that. All I’m about is giving the pro Palestine folks a reality check, that Hamas is a terrorist group and they are useful idiots to them. I’m concerned as any other of the lives of the innocent in Gaza, but I’m not blinded by pallywood
Idk what pallywood is friendo. You sound like a Q crazy person so imma disengage immediately.
Pallywood is a Palestine + Hollywood. It’s used for deceptive imagery used against Israel by Hamas and Hamas sympathetic groups
There’s mountains of evidence of Israel torturing or raping children, pregnant women, and elderly Palestinians. I am happy to show you some of that evidence.
The magnitude of the crimes committed by Israel is not even comparable. Israel has officials and generals who brag about raping Palestinians.
They’ve admitted they are not doing warnings. They are also clearly bombing far more than known hamas sites, they’re leveling entire neighborhoods.
Stop trying so hard to defend killing civilians.
So you’d be cool with somebody bombing the building you live in as long as they gave you 3 hours notice?
Why wouldn’t I? There is nothing I can do to stop them, so I am happy with the fact, I got to get out in time
I agree with the comic. I do however disagree with the title. I think the Hamas’ attack shouldn’t to be called “resistance”, just as Israel’s response shouldn’t be called “self defense”.
Man is there any popular meme communities on lemmy that ban Political posts? Getting sick of this community.
I doubt there’s any. There’s not a good definition of a “political meme” that wouldn’t have many people disagreeing whether certain memes are political or not, hence breeding power trip mods and bias. Most likely, it’ll just be allowing the political memes that agree with mods opinions, or are status quo to the mods, and hence not seemingly “political” even if it is.
But if you find one, please comment it here. I’d love to see it.
The question of whether politics should be allowed in meme communities is itsself political
Imagine being this deplorable
Not exactly an answer but you can block communities you don’t want to see.
im not pro palestine im anti israel
war is hell, neither side is good, but resistance is only human
Why not pro Palestine? They are the resistance to Israel.
It’s possible for both sides of a conflict to suck.
It is possible. But in this case, it is occupier vs occupied. An ethnoreligious state vs stateless people being ethnically cleansed. Something being possible doesn’t make it factual.
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Then act like it
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Is there a coherent argument here for me to respond to? If so, state it clearly and directly. Your movie analogy makes no sense.
It would have been okay if they just lived their live peacefully and actually cared to improve. But no, “we need more land and more people over the world seeing how we kill civilians”. This is so going to work for sure, yeah.
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I’m sorry, but are you the arbiter of all emotional responses?
Also, are “imaginary blood beliefs” and “resisting massacre” the same to you? Because you act like they are.
This feels more like an excuse to disengage than understand or criticize.
Didn’t you read what he wrote? He, acting as our representative, has already made it clear that we, all third parties, don’t care and just want to watch the world burn. Get in line!
makes me care less
What has your hesitant caring (if even true) achieved before? Is there anything lost that we should worry about?
We actually much rather you take a step back and leave us. Please start by telling your governments to gtfo of Middle east and stop all intervention. We don’t want you.
both sides are stupid. youd think after all these years of fighting a compromise could be found, but NO, they just always fight. gives me the feeling that they dont want it any other way.
I doubt that you will be swayed by facts, but just for the record: in 2000 Israel offered Hamas to become a fully sovereign nation on 100% of Gaza’s territory (and 95% of the West Bank) with East Jerusalem as their capital. Hamas declined. In 2005 Israel voluntarily disengaged from Gaza and enabled self-rule, hoping this would be a step towards peace. It wasn’t. In 2011 there was another offer for a “two states for two peoples” solution, Hamas once again rejected it.
None of this is surprising since the Hamas is a fanatic Muslim group following the most militant tenets of Islam. Their publicly-stated charter is to utterly destroy Israel (“drive the jews into the sea”) and create a Muslim nation on the entire area of Palestine. So anything less than that is a non-starter. Any Jew left alive in Israel means that they haven’t finished yet.
Note that there’s nothing in the charter about the Palestinian people - The Hamas takes no civic or sovereign responsibility for the population which they govern. In other words, Hamas sees the Palestinian people as a consumable resource in their fight to bring Islam to 100% of the territory historically referred to as “Palestine”. So building tunnels under schools and hospitals is allowed. Diverting humanitarian aid to the military infrastructure while the population starves is fine. Indoctrinating children from kindergarten about the glory of killing Jews is standard procedure. etc. Using the Gaza residents as human shields is valuable both for reducing Hamas casualties as well as increasing collateral damage which makes Israel “look bad” in the international community.
Compromise is difficult because when negotiating with someone who wants you dead, how do you meet them halfway ?
Go further back, even. The UN Partition Plan for Palestine in 1947 would have given Palestine its own territory, splitting it with Israel 45/55. The Arab League and Arab Higher Committee of Palestine both rejected it.
It’s not like compromises have never been offered. The Arabs have simply never been willing to accept anything less than the expulsion of the Jews from the territory.
From their perspective, someone just moved into their house one day and when they objected they said “let’s compromise, you can keep half of the house.” No wonder they rejected that compromise.
Unfortunately we’re now a couple of generations past that initial event so it’s a lot more complicated at this point.
At this rate they shall soon have no house at all. Constant terror attacks against an undefeatable enemy and an unwillingness to compromise will ensure it.
Correct me if I’m wrong here, but I don’t think they “just moved in”. They’ve lived there for a long time as well, but the former country of Palestine was quite divided ethnically, and that caused issues due to extremists (on both sides).
The purpose of splitting Palestine was to get two countries that were at least less divided ethnically, but due to where people lived Israel still remained quite evenly divided between muslims and jews whereas the new Palestine was close to 100% muslims.
Countries have been split all over the world before in somewhat similar manners without causing as big conflicts, showing that this could’ve been done in a peaceful manner. What went wrong here? I don’t know.
Palestinians are not saying to expel Jews. They are saying to remove the ethnoreligious state, not the Jews themselves.
This was reiterated countless of times. They seek a Democratic state where Jews and non jews can be equal.
Sorry, I was wrong. They want to “obliterate” the Jews, not expel them. When talking about genocide, it’s important to specify the correct flavor.
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
Regardless, they have multiple times rejected concessions and compromises that would have enabled them to have an independent democratic nation. If that’s truly what they wanted, why would they always pass on the opportunity to get it without bloodshed?
Just an addendum, the partition is based on the previous split of Transjordan Palestine after ww1, where there was a 80/20 split for the Arabs. With the Israeli getting most of Palestine.
Why agree to this “compromise” when Israel violated the previous one?
Drive the vast majority of a population from their homes, and to a tiny strip of their former homeland, then “generously” offer them to just remain there in their little concentration camp. And not even guaranteed, given Israel’s history. Gee, I wonder why they rejected?
It’s not surprising that this is what occupiers think is “compromise”.
If you know enough history to be familiar with the “previous ones” then you know that that they could have gotten half of Israel’s territory in 1947 but instead they (the Arab nations) preferred to go to war to take it all. And they failed. And then again in 68, same story. BTW Israel has repeatedly offered to transfer control of Gaza to Egypt, the Egyptians have no interest in helping them out in any way. It’s more expedient for all the Arab world that Gaza remains a festering sore in Israel’s side - of course at the expense of the poor Palestinians who are stuck there. Even now, Egypt is unwilling to open it’s border for Palestinians who wish to flee the area. But it’s obviously more fashionable to blame Israel for creating a “concentration camp” even after all of that. No-other country in the region is willing to lift a finger to help them, yet you expect the most from the country which Gaza has sworn to destroy and attacks at every opportunity?
There’s many Palestinians in Israeli territory right now. If they were willing to compromise, they wouldn’t be brutalizing them weekly, gassing them in places of prayer and stripping away their rights.
One of my best friends has a whole bunch of Israeli cousins that I’m friendly with when they’ve visited the states. According to them, a lot of Israeli people have a lot of Palestinian friends and vice versa, especially the younger generations, it’s primarily the Israeli government and Hamas that keep this shit going. Most of the average people don’t take issue with each other outside of extremists and nationalists on either side, they’d rather just all get along. They say the issue tends to lie with governing authority over holy sites, that Israel is trying to be the big kid on the block in the region, and the Palestinians just want to live in peace with equal rights and to not be treated as substandard citizens on their own land and are rightfully pissed that they keep getting pushed around.
Of course, the issue is the Israeli state, not the Jewish people. There are even organizations in Israel fighting for Palestinian rights and against the Israeli state (and many get punished for it).
But unfortunately there are also many who support what is being done to Palestinians. But in the end, the Israeli state and military are the main entities to blame.
Have you ever heard the phrase, “you can’t negotiate with terrorists?” Turns out it’s true.
Didn’t the United States consider the Taliban terrorists? Did that stop them from negotiating a retreat from Afghanistan? America sure seems to believe you can negotiate with terrorists.
Negotiate? They straight up support terrorists or conduct business with them for ‘the greater good’ or ‘the big picture’.
What America considers “terrorists” are often the least problematic of their associations. Let’s not forget how South Korea used to be ruled by a series of dictators, or the installation of Pinochet, or the South Vietnamese dictators.
The terrorists in that case managed to outlast a billion/trillion $ anti-terrorism budget, I don’t think the US had much negotiating power or a choice to not negotiate in that case. Ironic considering how many times that it’s been the other way around.
I mean, I guess you can try, but you’re going to be dissapointed every single time. 10/10 don’t recommend.
Who’s “they”, exactly? Certainly not the average Israeli or Palestinian.
Gimme that good old fundamentalist religion
“hurr de durr, both sides”
What a giant load of crap
I mean, both Hamas and Israeli leadership should be prosecuted for war crimes
I just think this situation shouldn’t have even been reached in the first place…
I would not equate the too. Not to mention, Israel sponsored Hamas.
Casualties? Hamas wanted to kill as many citizens of Israel as possible, no matter of what nationality they were. Even tourists were killed. Casualties are about bad luck, but Hamas victims were murdered because of evil intention. They cannot be compared to Palestinian casualties in any way.
While I agree with you about Hamas, the fact you don’t apply the same logic to the IDF is very telling. A country that believes a whole group of people are less than human and wants them eradicated absolutely intends every casualty it inflicts.
Israeli snipers murder innocent children, journalists and medical staff because of evil intentions.
Israeli bombs dropped on one of the densest populated areas which are bound to inflict civilian casualties are doing their intended evil.
The choice to turn off the electricity even though it will guarantee deaths in hospitals is not bad luck and is evil.
Israel is evil.
In fact if we’re going by civilian casualties Israel is like 36x more evil.
Why can’t they be compared? People killed with a knife are just as dead as people killed with a missile.
Hamas wanted to kill as many citizens of Israel as possible
Source?
This is false. Hamas is not free of criticism, they did commit needless killing of civilians, but their main target remains the IDF. This is contrasted with Israel, whose target is civilians.
Even the music festival was located right next to the Re’im base. The festival itself had Israeli gunned men and tanks. Again, I do not condemn the civilians needlessly killed by some Hamas members, but the operation’s target was the military.
