Mr Yoder said that one of his friends was in the middle of a visit with community elders to discuss a shunning for different reasons when the alert on his phone went off.
I know this is a terrible day for that person, but it is really hard not to find the humor in this little snippet of the story.
Shunning the school canoe? You’d better believe that’s a-shunning!
As “innocent” as they are portrayed, the hypocrisy is the least of their problems. Their abuse of both people and animals is extremely widespread and rarely talked about.
The worst part was the hypocrisy. Well that and all the raping.
Man just calling out the rape doesn’t do it justice.
They rape and “freshen up” the gene pool now and then. They rape to fix problems caused by rape.
If you don’t feel uncomfortable with that thought in your head, then add to it the puppy mills.
They are not a holy people.
Whoosh
Are puppy mills more efficient than wind mills?
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Wait, what? I have a feeling I was better off being ignorant.
Part of mainstream Amish theology is basically that it’s the job of the community to handle people sinning, not outsiders, and after rape has been “handled” by a period of shunning it’s basically forbidden for community members to not re-embrace them, including their victim.
Fucking nightmare for the victims, for obvious reasons.
But also, & more likely as suggested above, a Norm MacDonald joke. See here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljaP2etvDc4
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The man they mention in this article (Eli Yoder) regularly brings it up and confronts it.
He interviewed a woman one time who was raped by her brothers and she got in trouble right along with them for being “tempting” and not modest enough.
The abuse started when she was a small child.
They don’t go to the police when they catch people, they take them to the elders and punish them within the group. They usually just get shunned for a bit.
Wives regularly get blamed when their daughters are abused by their husbands. “You should do your wifely duties so he isn’t tempted.”
I’ve heard some wild stories watching this guy.
He really works hard to bring education and information to people who are trapped in that reality. He also provides resources and support when people want to escape.
Not that this isn’t possible, but the entire article is based off one guy talking about it on TikTok . Which is probably about as reliable as a bunch of those creative writing exercises on AITA.
NTA, you should leave your husband
This is an automated action performed in response to the acronym AITAFuck, that fired neurons.
I have followed Eli on YouTube forever and I believe him.
He does all of the things he says he’s going to do. He films himself dropping packages (phones in plastic bags usually) to the Amish. He films the people he frees from the cult. He interviews people who got out regularly. He and I don’t see eye to eye on a lot of things (religious views, political views), but I trust what he says.
Some of the people he’s interviewed have made me raise my eyebrows, but he hasn’t.
I mean, your point is still valid, but I believe him.
My wife and I had a question about how they’re charging the cell phones once they have them. Do you have any information on that?
A small solar power pack would do it. My wife has one for camping.
Is solar “allowed”? I’ve got a small one for “camping” as well. It sucks. It has no built in battery so you have to keep your phone plugged in while in the sun. And it was built back in the flip phone days so it doesn’t really put out enough juice to charge a smart phone in a functional amount of time. I keep saying I’m going to go bigger but never have the money or spare weight.
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Based on a documentary I saw recently they seem to be OK with battery powered devices and use them extensively on their farms. But powerlines are considered the devil or something. And autmobiles as well, unless you get a chauffer. Not sure how much this differs between communities though, doesn’t seem like there is a central authority for all Amish.
Right, which is the cause of our issue. Where do they get the electricity to charge the batteries? The houses don’t have it. The buggies done have it. I’d hate to think of the damage done to a phone using a dirty power from a hand crank generator. Is there some solar cell loophole? “It not electricity, it’s sunshine.”
Ok you actually made me curious so I threw in a quick search, turns out they aren’t opposed to technology or electricity per se at all, it’s a much more philosophical stance about being connected to / dependant on the outside world. And it’s indeed different for every community/parish to what degree it is allowed, some more conservative groups still don’t use it all.
Some Amish, though not all, also accept the use of solar panels to generate energy to charge batteries, power an electric fence for livestock, or heat water. Donald Kraybill has called this form of electricity tapping into “God’s grid”. […]
The Amish are not against use of electric power and acknowledge its usefulness. They seek to remain off the public grid in order to prevent worldly influences from entering the home, and as a symbolic means of remaining separate from the world.
At the same time, they see value in limited use of electric power, and thus generate it by various means, making use of diesel generators, batteries, inverters, and solar panels, among other technologies.
https://amishamerica.com/do-amish-use-electricity/
There are still some extremely conservative orders (also called “low” orders or “old” orders) of Amish that still do not allow the use of batteries either in the home or as safety lights on buggies. […]
As history marched on, and new inventions were discovered and marketed, lines had to be drawn as to what was, and what was not acceptable within the Amish church. The acceptance of electricity within the home was one of these lines. By the 1920’s most Amish churches had agreed on a ban for Amish church members being allowed to connect to the electrical grid. […]
Today, most Amish churches forbid the use of public electricity because it is seen as a “connection to the world” but batteries allow many Amish families and businesses a limited connection to power and the ability to run such items as calculators, alarm clocks, cash registers, drills, electric fences, and even cell phones without discipline form their local Bishop.
http://www.amishcountryalmanac.com/2014/02/batteries-and-amish.html
Now please don’t ask me how they rationalise buying generators and fuel as not being dependant on the outside world, because I don’t have the slightest clue.
Gasoline powered generators apparently, and then the big batteries charged on those can charge the phones or power whatever they need. But again, this is different from community to community as far as I understood it.
Probably but I wouldn’t expect many other Amish (except those with the phones) to be talking about it lmao
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“shunned” by their church
Take that as a compliment and move on.
Being shunned in Amish culture is VERY aggressive. You’re basically cut off from the community and family. You can’t get rides, you have to eat alone, etc. It’s pretty fucked up.
Mormons also have versions of this that are notoriously fucked up. Stay in line or lose contact with everyone you love.
Yup. It sounds a lot like Scientology. Or pretty much every other cult/religion out there. LOL
If their way of life was so amazing, people would WANT to stay in it. Holding them hostage or else… just seems… less than ideal. 😵
Scientology literally has an illegal prison to throw you in.
I wonder if Shelly Miscavige is there?
Maybe her corpse…
To be fair, some religions are much more aggressive about burning bridges than others. If I piss off my Catholic family, I just get passive aggressive quips from my mother in law at Christmas. I can still see my family, go home to my wife, and still work in the city they reside in.
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Yeah I’ve heard with Jehovas Witnesses it’s extreme. I haven’t heard the same about Mormons actually.
I feel so sad for JW kids. Not only are they growing up in a cult where they might die if they need a blood transfusion, they don’t even get birthday parties or Christmas presents. The latter, especially if they go to public school as many do, must be really psychologically taxing on a small child when every other kid in school is having birthday parties and talking about what they got for Christmas. I got it a little bit because I’m Jewish and we didn’t celebrate Christmas, so I definitely felt like an outcast at times. But at least I got Hanukkah presents and birthday parties and no one told me the world was going to end any day now (well, maybe by the Soviets nuking us, but that was a different anxiety).
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Technically all Christians have a version of this. Though even in “Bible Churches” it is usually tempered by the second bit below, and processes of repentance and whatnot.
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
I Corinthians 5
15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Matthew 18
As an aside, that Corinthians bit spells it out in plain-ass English that any “Christian” screaming at non-Christians about being gay, trans, or whatever either do not know their Bible or only use it when it supports the actions they already want to take.
As a second aside, it is kind of funny what one still remembers even after being out of the church for a couple decades.
Being unshunned and reshunned is even more aggressive. https://media.tenor.com/aLiqWMAiXScAAAAC/the-office-dwight-schrute.gif
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This is absolutely not true. I know a parent who wasn’t allowed to go to their child’s wedding because the church wouldn’t allow her to after she left the church.
Nice misunderstanding of facts here.
The church wedding for members of our church happens in a place we call temple. Temples are not our churches, they are a sacred place that only members in good standing are allowed to visit. This is not the place we meet at every week for our weekly church services.
So yeah, that parent would not be allowed to go to the temple, where the wedding ceremony happened. But that parent would not be excluded at all for the rest of the wedding and/or any other kind of communication with their child.
In the eyes of the church, someone who has been excommunicated has the exact same status as someone, who has never been part of the church.
It’s quite interesting to me, how many people believe they know more about the church than members of said church, because they know someone who knows someone who said a thing.
But I guess it’s not surprising, since also lots of people who never actually met a trans person strongly believe they really understand trans people and their supposed evil motivations.
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DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB!
It’s quite interesting to me, how many people believe they know more about the church than members of said church
This is how you know you’re the one inside the shitty cult…
“shunned” by their church
Take that as a compliment and move on.
Being shunned in Amish culture is VERY aggressive. You’re basically cut off from the community and family. You can’t get rides, you have to eat alone, etc. It’s pretty fucked up.
Mormons also have versions of this that are notoriously fucked up. Stay in line or lose contact with everyone you love.
(Comment by squaresinger removed by mod: “reason: Part of a white nationalist cult, defending said cult”. Comment summary: A Mormon clarifies that excommunication doesn’t ban attending church activities, but tensions arise when ex-members aggressively try to convert others away from the faith, citing their ex-Mormon returned missionary best friend as an example of someone who isnʼt hostile towards Mormon Church members.)
I also was raised in the Church, served a mission, but left (you can too)!, despite Church roadblocks. To illustrate why I left, let me provide you with what my self-righteous past self would have written for an audience of priesthood holders regarding the apostasy of a best friend:
Your best friend knew the truth, got their endowment, yet apostatized anyway. Better that your best friend had never been born (D&C 76:32). You shouldn’t associate with them because Satan will find a way to weaken your testimony through your sympathy for them. Instead, unfaithful such as your friend should be cast out from your community as salt that has lost its flavor (Matthew 5:14; see the 1838-06-17 Salt Sermon). Since they committed the unpardonable sin of denying the Holy Ghost, the best case scenario for building the Kingdom of God is that they don’t corrupt anyone else or die early (side note: killing an apostate in order to save their soul even from an Unpardonable Sin was a loophole called “Blood Atonement which was used by the Danites to justify murdering enemies of the Church; the idea being that Christ couldn’t spill their own blood to atone for someone who denied the Holy Ghost but someone could atone for their own sins by being their own blood sacrifice; the requirement to physically spill blood in order to effect the ritual is a plausible explanation for why Utah still permits capital punishment by firing squad). Better to dedicate your time and efforts towards sharing the Gospel with people who haven’t had a chance to properly hear it in this Second Estate than with someone who heard it, lived it, yet rejected it.
The above text would not be found out of place in a Sunday talk, especially one given by an Area Authority, although many in the congregation would likely feel uncomfortable. Church leadership would likely minimize such discomfort by restricting such fierce and arguably cruel teachings to private Priesthood Sessions of unbroadcasted Stake Conferences or missionary Zone Conferences. If it makes you feel uncomfortable, I hope you reconsider your membership to an organization in which such cruel and inhumane talk is considered acceptable.
- Edit(2023-10-10T20:05+00): Include context.
- Edit(2023-10-10T20:13+00): Remove some context that was removed by mod. Summarize the offending comment for context.
- Edit(2023-10-10T20:29+00): Add statement explaining the example of cult rhetoric is meant to explain the cruelty, not to promote it.
(Comment by squaresinger removed by mod: “reason: Part of a white nationalist cult, defending said cult”. Comment summary: A Mormon clarifies that excommunication doesn’t ban attending church activities, but tensions arise when ex-members aggressively try to convert others away from the faith, citing their ex-Mormon returned missionary best friend as an example of someone who isnʼt hostile towards Mormon Church members.)
Wow, these mods really hate members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Our church is anything but white nationalistic. Most members of the Church live outside the United States and its leaders have repeatedly preached against racism and nationalism in recent years. I hope the mods educate themselves on this topic before further spreading their bigotry.
Yeah it seems like everyone here has a perception of Mormons that is significantly more hard line than reality. The shunning they’re talking about is not part of official church policy, and speaking as an ex Mormon myself, nobody in my life cut contact when I left because there’s no doctrine that says they should. Indeed, official doctrine is that you should support that person no matter what with the hopes that they come back into the fold. Jehovah’s Witnesses, by contrast, DO have official policy for how everyone should cut contact when someone is disfellowshipped.
I have a long laundry list of gripes with the LDS church, but this particular issue isn’t one of them (at least from a policy and doctrine perspective). I will note, however, that in times where I have seen this shunning happen, it’s rarely due to the person who left putting strain on their relationships. Instead, it’s typically due to religious fanaticism on an individual level from the LDS people in their lives. That’s unfortunately not unusual for religions, though, and I don’t think Mormons are unique here.
The Mormons do not “have versions of this.” Their official policy is quite the opposite. However, for many Mormons, their religion is their whole identity so when a family member chooses another lifestyle they are personally offended and can’t find any way to relate to them anymore.
I once called a guy about something he was advertising in the classifieds. I called him on Easter Sunday. He answered, but said he needed a second before he could talk.
Turns out he was Amish. I called an Amish man on the phone… on Easter Sunday. He answered… while he was in church.
I called an Amish man on his cellphone, which he answered in the middle of Easter mass, to talk about his classified ad.
This was the most tame interaction I’ve had with Amish folk. They’re fucking hardcore.
You know that scene in Parks and Rec where Ron Swanson tips a jug of moonshine up onto his shoulder and pours it down his gullet? I’ve fucking seen a bearded guy with a big hat and no buttons do that IRL.
The Amish know how to party.
Not all Amish view technology as entirely something against their religion. Peter Santenello has a bunch of great videos where he interviews Amish people and understands their culture. This is a good one on that topic: https://youtu.be/EgY1SVXiBrU?si=E2zTNOhQxm6Qcgff
Correct. Amish are Mennonites who shun other Mennonites. The elders of their church decide for the local congregation what is and isn’t appropriate conduct. If you disagree, you are shunned.
If the congregation down the road disagrees, those folks are shunned.
So you get very customized, local, specific lists about what is and isn’t allowable.
Really, it looks more extreme, but it’s no different than independent baptist churches or churches of christ ‘disfellowship’-ing with other congregations over doctrinal minutia.
In all cases you will get a few congregations thinking that only their congregation of 20-50 folks are the only ones in the world who “go to heaven”. 😂
So, all Amish might not agree what technologies are worth shunning over, but they all agree that some technologies are worth restricting their members access to, upon penalty of shunning.
I once knew a guy that lived in an area with a large Amish population, and at one point he saw an Amish kid playing a handheld game. He asked him hey, aren’t you Amish? I thought you guys weren’t allowed to have electronics? And the kid told him that his dad said that since it wasn’t Nintendo it didn’t count, lmao.
How did his dad even know what Nintendo was?
“The card game manufacturer?”
Correct. Amish are Mennonites who shun other Mennonites. The elders of their church decide for the local congregation what is and isn’t appropriate conduct. If you disagree, you are shunned.
I know this is pedantic, but that’s just not right. Amish and Mennonites are generally distinct. One group does not belong to the other, though some groups in the middle claim to be part of both. Regardless, the umbrella term for both is “Anabaptist”.
If the congregation down the road disagrees, those folks are shunned.
I’ve not known there to be much animosity between neighboring groups, but I guess I haven’t witnessed an Amish church split up close. I know they happen though, but all Anabaptist groups in my area are quite friendly with one another.
Shunning seems to be more of a way to have their own members conform to their local rules. They really don’t care what others in the community or neighboring Christian groups do. I think it really is a control mechanism – e.g. “Do things this way or you are going to lose your family/friends/community support”.
(Source: My dad grew up Old Order Amish, his family was kicked out of the church (over some farming rules). My grandpa transitioned to be Beachy Amish at some point, while my dad joined a (now progressive) Mennonite church that I grew up and remained in for a long time)
I know this is pedantic, but that’s just not right. Amish and Mennonites are generally distinct.
Well, Jakob Ammann, who the Amish are named after, was a member of a Swiss Brethren church (now called Mennonite) who didn’t think his Mennonite brethren did enough shunning (a core principle of the Swiss Brethren).
So he formed his own church. Eventually members in his church (surprise!), shunned him over some different differences, as it happens when you join a group with all the cantankerous people. And it continued so on and so forth.
The distinctions might be in practical matters that arise over time–like fabrics used in their dress, use of buttons vs hook fasteners, or use of technology, or use of English vs German, but theologically they’re pretty much identical and these differences are just natural things that happen over time.
An Amish church split is really just two groups mass shunning each other. There’s no real difference.
And I’m aware it probably doesn’t seem like that closer up, because I’m speaking very abstractly. But I can’t see how anything you’ve said disagrees with what I’ve said.
And, I want to say I do appreciate hearing your experiences. For the record: I have a degree in Bible, did some post-grad study on church history, have some family members who are Mennonite, and grew up pretty close to a large Amish community.
Yeah, the dude I called lived in a much more progressive sect. He was actually the “cab driver” for his community, which is why he had a cellphone. He also had a computer and a very rudimentary website for the stuff he was selling in the classifieds.
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That’s amazing.
Even worse is for example domestic violence and abuse victims who might have a secret phone stashed away which could be located with the very loud emergency alert. I seem to recall posts going around to notify those people to have their phone turned off during that time.
My wife found my burner phone and now I can’t go party
My wife found my burner that I use to sext with her, and she discovered that Im not just her husband, but Im also her secret boyfriend she met on tinder.
IF YOU LIKE PINOT COLADAS!
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Yikes, dude
This is the bigger story.
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Wouldn’t those still get emergency alerts? Idk I’m just passing along what I read, it doesn’t affect me personally.
I thought Jesus preached forgiveness. Why isn’t that lesson being followed?
Oh it’s because religion is bullshit and its followers are hypocrites
Shunning, in those sects that still practice it, generally isn’t a permanent affair, nor was is originally specified to be. The shunning isn’t the problem for you and I, its that lgbtq lifestyles are usually(depends on the community - even among the amish) a “living in sin”/shunnable affair no one should have to repent or hide.
EDIT: Jesus Christ, Amish shunning for rape and icest is only six weeks, AND they forbid reporting of such crimes to law enforcement? WTF?
https://www.typeinvestigations.org/investigation/2020/01/14/amish-sexual-abuse-assault/
Also:
Matthew 22:21
Romans 13:1
1 Peter 2:13-17Noting that aiding and abetting a crime, including lying to hide another’s crime, and the intimidation of witnesses and victims, are all well-established secular law, there is no grounds for how too many religious communities handle such things. Priests and Pastors should be mandatory reporters, not privileged to keep confidentiality where serious crimes are concerned, nevermind that these people are openly confessing to their entire congregations/communities.
Sufferers of domestic violence with hidden phones is a far more important issue.
Why can no one on social media hold more than one thought in there head at a time?
Indeed. Fucking red herrings…
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I mean, a lot of Amish people probably meet that definition.
Why would they leave it on???
Shunning is a cult practice, this is one of the reasons I strongly dislike the Amish
I like lemmy, but i miss reddits ability for useless hot takes to be downvoted into oblivion.
So many people here really do think their hard line, no context opinions hold value.
Something something forest, trees, shitty visibility. For fucks sake.
The amish are fucking awful dude. Theyre a cult that abuses and beats women and children, treating them like property. They run puppy mills churning out dogs in gorrible conditions. Not to mention the rampant incest and inbreeding. Fuck their cult. They arent just “cute old timey people” tourists think they are
But this isn’t a useless hot take… Have you ever actually encountered Amish people before?
Yes absolutely.
Blocks keith@lemm.ee
So you shun the Amish?
There are two things in the world I can’t stand. People who are intolerant of other people’s cultures and the Dutch.
I mean I disapprove of their child abuse, etc. Shunning them would require I first be part of their life
This is weird because lots of Amish communities let people have cell phones, you just can’t use it in the house.
Also there are a lot of different sects of Amish. On one extreme there are the Amish who use the internet with a few restrictions, and on the other are the Amish who won’t touch anything that uses electricity. It’s a broad society. They’re pretty much all kinda shitty to women, but that’s diverse too.
The “Phone Barn” market is incoming
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lol anyone that has experience with Amish in Ohio knows phones are everywhere.
Hell I saw an amish dude ripping down the street on a one wheel just a few months ago. Some use side by sides and tractors. They also have a battery distributor with their own name on the label and a website, Miller Tech.
It depends on the community but in my experience it’s not much of an issue at all these days.
I’ve lived near a few Amish communities, and they’re all a little different on what tech is present but it’s safe to say they all have some.
Generally you’ll see electricity and phone lines to a special building, they won’t all have it but a few will. Lately they’ve ditched the landlines for cell phones, and they’ll have their spouses put parental blocks on them.
The philosophy doesn’t really change much, it’s not about rejecting technology, it’s about being self sufficient, and not relying on the outside world for anything. The phones are mostly for business. But they’ll use them for Internet to get to Facebook and YouTube too.
It’s also worth noting that the horse and buggy thing is pretty common but I’ve never met an Amish adult who didn’t at last have access to a pickup truck.
Yep here there’s a whole niche business for people willing to drive Amish to/from job sites, stores, hunting areas etc
Most of those business are Amish owned and run. Guy I knew had three or four giant pickup trucks, generally he was towing pigs to slaughter but he would cart anything they asked him to. They didn’t trust the English to handle their business as far as they could throw them.
It’s worth pointing out that the guy with the cell phone and pickup trucks also believed the world was flat. He was not a flat earther the way we think of one, and wouldn’t know what that meant if you asked him. It just happens to say in the Bible that the world has 4 corners, and so it must. As, according to him and almost every person in Amish communities everywhere, the Bible is literally and 100% truth.
huh
Just the men?
Ah they really live in the good old times… /s
JFC, that was a horrible read. Thank you for sharing this, however grim it might be.
How do they charge the phones though
I mean, they have electricity.
Amish aren’t anti-technology across the board. They pick and choose, trying to prohibit what they feel weakens the community.
It’s common for Amish to operate phones or computers for their businesses, they’re just not allowed at home.
The Amish community I know aren’t super strict. They use gas farm equipment and are fine with solar batteries. They just don’t want to be on the power grid.
Solar batteries? Either that or they hook it up to a charger when they’re in town.
Most amish communities allow generatiegenoten electricity with a solar panel for specific uses
The main cruxes tend to be: having a wired connection to “the grid”/outside world. Not being fully independent. Adopting worldly & not practical practices.
Cell phones are practical. I’ve seen a few Amish with basic cell phones at farmer shows.
yeah I remember awhile back. talking decade or so. that they were creeping in (cell phones) but there had not been an official ruling. Some had them but kept them outside of the house and such. I had actually saw one thing that said they would have like phonebooths at the intersection of several family farms and that was considered all right because they could share and would not be tempted to use it for poor reasons.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Members of the Amish community have been “shunned” by their church after the recent test of an emergency alert system outed them as having procured forbidden mobile phones.
The alarms – part of the nationwide emergency alert drill that the US government carried out on 4 October – drew the attention of community elders in Ohio.
Eli Yoder, a former member of the Amish community, took to TikTok to share the story, in which he explained how three of his friends had gotten into trouble after the devices were discovered.
Mr Yoder said that one of his friends was in the middle of a visit with community elders to discuss a shunning for different reasons when the alert on his phone went off.
In the comments section of his video Mr Yoder added: “From now on, I guess I have to remember to give all my Amish buddies a heads up if there is a planned emergency alert test.”
It states that such devices including television, automobiles, telephones or tractors are “considered to be a temptation that could cause vanity, create inequality, or lead the Amish away from their close-knit community.”
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