It’s a common mistake among conservatives that they believe everyone is as self-centered and greedy as they are
I’ve not become more conservative as I age because I’d kill myself before becoming that awful to people around me
To what extent do you think education has played a role in allowing kids to critically analyse these types of people. Because in my history classes, we learned about ways people influenced others in nefarious ways and I’m wondering if kids see the same common pattern and know when to avoid.
Just a thought 🤷
Oh, I definitely think it’s played an important role. There’s a reason the right wing regularly attacks education. Seems to be a global thing, too – not just the US.
Also just a thought, though!
Good question, anyone that has an education will tell you it’s changed their life and I believe that too. Even though sometimes it’s boring, the advantage is just too good for future children. Just suspicious that right wing wants to reverse progress.
It’s become unfortunately popular in some circles to view education as strictly a state’s propaganda tool, but in spite of its flaws, I’ve been pretty impressed by how effective it can be in the hands of skilled and passionate groups of individual educators.
That’s not to say there aren’t bad teachers (and don’t even get me started on administrators and legislators), but I do attribute a lot to what it has accomplished, for example, in my remote state, and that’s in spite of being regularly attacked by christofascists. When I think about it, I’m not sure I’d have much of a healthy perspective on things if not for some influential teachers. I’m a huge fan of public education, and I think we need to speak up for it whenever we can. It’s tragic what’s happened to it these past few years in my state and others.
I’m conservative, I’m not American though.
I wish there was a place we could talk about the issues we disagree on without assuming the other is PURE EVIL OMG HITLER HITLER NAZI!
Or DIRTY PEDO COMMIE HATES WESTERN CIVILIZATION AND WANTS US TO ALL BE GULAGED LITERALLY STALIN STALIN STALIN!
“I just wish there was a place I could talk about maintaining the structures that oppress billions but keep me feeling comfortable and superior without those who are negatively impacted telling me I’m a piece of shit”
Damn, man
It must be miserable being you
Why not actually respond to what they said? Conservatism is inherently about conserving power in the elite. It seems a bit immature to respond to an (admittedly snide and sarcastic) challenge to your beliefs with a personal insult. All they did was accurately break down what your comment represents.
I’m having a dozen conversations and 80% of the time when I click on the response in my inbox to go back to the context it takes me to another post all together.
I don’t even know what our conversation has been up to this point.
What did they say? And then how did I respond? I wish you could see my inbox with all of the personal attacks I’ve received not only today, but over the last two months over different accounts lol
So if someone is being an idiot to me, I don’t have a problem being an idiot back. If you’re respectful, I’ll have a respectful conversation with you.
That entire comment was just a dodge. Do your due diligence and click “show context” (it is the bare minimum effort), and stop avoiding the subject. Or just don’t respond if you don’t want to discuss.
If you want to know what they were talking about - I already summed it up in the comment you’re responding to. Precisely so you couldn’t excuse dodging the point a second time. And yet, here you are, doing exactly that.
Do you deny that conservatism is about conserving the power in the established elite? And if so - how?
https://lemmy.one/comment/2873366
Lol this is the kind of thing that shows up in my inbox over and over and over again
I just told you, I click on the reply and it takes me to some random part of the thread. When replies start getting nested and there’s a lot of comments I can’t find the posts. And I don’t really care that much to spend the time searching, when my inbox keeps filling up with messages like the one I linked.
Conservation of tradition is what conservatives usually aim to do. Nothing about established elite, but values, institutions, traditions, etc. that’s the context of ‘conserve’ in the name.
Of course there’s a lot more to it than that.
Yeah, that’s why they want change.
Its because for us in America there is nothing to argue for on conservatism that is appealing. Our democrats are center-right. What do we have to discuss between extremists and centrists of the same side? What companies should be bailed out first? Which lobbyist donate the fattest cheques? Its abysmal. So no, you won’t find any citizens who want to discuss with conservatives same as you won’t find many willing to discuss with the Taliban.
Honestly, it sounds like you’re the extreme one if you think the majority of everyone else is either centrist or extremist themselves.
How can you reconcile that?
If I understand what you’ve wrote you said;
You’re an extremist if you think the majority of other people are extremists.
Could you please elaborate on that?
If you want to do this, we can.
But can we start with an agreed on definition of the term ‘extremist’?
My point is that, if you think 300 million other people in your country are extremists, and there are any 350-ish million people in your country - mayyyyybe the 300 aren’t the extremists and maybe you are.
If that’s how you see the world
That doesn’t make sense. Looking at the US, there appears to be around 18% on the extreme right, 60 percent on the moderate right, 20% on the moderate left to center, and 2% on the extreme left.
But the media reporting on them appear to be weighted extreme right and left.
Populist politics and media have resulted in many countries around the world becoming less tolerant of opposing views, which has driven many discussions (and more people) to ideological extremes.
But you can have 50% extreme left and 50% extreme right in a country easily. Just means nobody’s willing to compromise on anything.
I’d like to see what the definition of ‘extreme left’ and ‘extreme right’ is to pair with those numbers. Is it something the ADL or NAACP came up with?
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What you’re looking for is certainly not on this platform
Unfortunately, I don’t think it exists anywhere
why aren’t you on truth social?
Why would I be?
because you are looking for a platform that will be more open to conservative users. I keep hearing conservatives complain they have nowhere to go, but there is a platform specifically for them, and I don’t know why they won’t use it
Why do we need to be in different places online according to our political leaning?
I want debate, not a right wing echochamber or roulette of insults
There’s nothing to debate with conservatives. If you were a reasonable person looking for good faith discussion you wouldn’t be a conservative. So no one will engage with you because its a waste of time at best.
You have the entirety of human history at your fingertips and you’re too lazy to seek out information. No one wants to babysit you through Wikipedia.
It is also my experience dealing with conservatives that any time you people get DESTROYED you people get really angry, like threateningly angry.
I’ll give you a concrete example: the other poster whinging about immigration. Do you know the history of immigration laws? Do you know the causes of immigration? What are the effects of immigration? What are the impacts to communities? Do you understand current and historical colonialism? Or did newscorp tell you immigrants are scary (especially the brown ones)?
“You are a waste of time at best” “You’re too lazy to seek out information”
Read the comment you replied to. It’s a single sentence. I cannot state it any simpler.
No I do not know the entire history of immigration legislation, even pertaining to the US. Yes I know causes of immigration, but likely not all of them. Yes I know what I don’t know, which is why I don’t debate about immigration. I know it is entirely too difficult for people seeking to immigrate OR seek asylum in the US to become citizens, and I’d go as far to say it’s impossible for most. Yes we need to fix our southern border, because we are actively treating immigrants like trash and not humans seeking a better life. Open borders, for the most part, are good borders. And no I did not read the other poster’s comments.
Not get the fuck off your high horse.
Let me know when you find it, I’m looking too
is there a reason you aren’t on truth social?
Conervative: “please don’t call me a nazi hear me out first”
Normal people: “ok”
Conservative: “sieg heil, gas the jews”
Normal people: “you’re a nazi”
Conservative: “see you won’t even listen”
Right cause this fucking happens
It does. I shortened it a bit. The conservatives usually use many words, and they might try not to sound racist, but when pressed, they more or less admit they want certain groups of persons not to exist, women to have fewer rights, and so on. Back to barbarian times and war crimes basically.
Oh poor you. Go fuck yourself with a rusty blade, asshole.
What’s your definition of conservative, and what is it about conservatism that appeals to you?
All of the political tests I’ve ever taken have named me a ‘classic liberal’. There are so many subdivision of political leanings that it gets pretty confusing.
I call myself a conservative because I believe in the family unit being the backbone of our society. The most important thing in the world. I believe in small government, I believe in free market capitalism, I think taxes should be minimal and government should be responsible with balancing the budget.
Im not overly religious, but I think religion has a lot of good lessons to teach. I think the Bible creates fences around issues and asks us to do our best not to cross them, but those fences are far enough away from the real issue that we need to avoid to mean it’s not a huge deal if we step over the odd one here or there. I don’t take the Bible 100% literally.
As for social topics, I’m much more liberal than where I am with governing. This is why I voted for Justin Trudeau back in like, 2015.
I believe drugs should be legal, sex work should be legal, I think we should have less laws in general. I respect the idea of the police, but I realize a lot of them are just losers from highschool who got picked on and now they have a gun and a badge.
I had a long soul searching introspective moment on abortion when my wife became pregnant with our first child and we were talking to the doctor about testing for Down’s syndrome.
I realized that for me, I am against it. But I’m not so quick to say it should be banned. I do think there should be common sense restrictions though.
Does that all make sense?
families and free market capitalism are exclusive of each other.
Free market capitalism wants both parents and any children working as young as possible and as old as possible, as much as possible.
Free market capitalism does not - practically - support childcare (and childcare - bringing in someone else to care for your children - is the opposite of being a family), it does not support time off, it does not support vacations, it doesn’t support education, it doesn’t support public transportation (important when you have small kids), it doesn’t support free Healthcare for childbirth, pre- and post-natal care, it doesn’t support retirement so grandparents can help.
It also supports strict immigration and very much looks down on people immigrating with their families or brining their families over — leading to such terms as “anchor baby”
I’m a millennial immigrant to the USA. We can’t have kids because my wife’s job is location based and tied to student loan forgiveness and retirement divestment, so her family are thousands of miles in one direction, my family are thousands of miles in another direction. If we have a baby she loses her job, as theres no maternity or paternity leave, can’t get her student loans forgiven, can’t ever retire, I get 2 weeks off a year + public holidays and I often work 8am to 6 or 7pm - I would literally never see my child.
Captialism is directly responsible for the destruction of (this, but in my opinion all) families.
Yeah that makes sense. I think as an inevitable result of writing a brief online comment, you’ve expressed a quite vague and shallow perspective here, so if you don’t mind I’d like to dig into it a little bit. In particular, I’m curious about what you mean when you say you “believe in small government” and “free market capitalism”.
What sort of things do you think government should not be doing? Should people not be entitled to live a healthy life without being bankrupted? (I.e., should government not fund healthcare?) Are workers not entitled to fair treatment for their labour? (industrial relations laws and workplace health & safety.) Is public safety and order not important? (Fire departments, police, maybe the defence forces.) How do you feel when governments give subsidies to some businesses, like agriculture, mining, “bailing out the banks”, or private education?
You’ll note that some of these are things that conservative governments are associated with doing more of, while others are things conservative governments do less of. It’s why I’ve always found the conservative parties’ claims to be “small government” rather misleading. More of a marketing approach they use that doesn’t actually represent what they stand for, and thus not particularly useful in good faith political discourse.
Does that all make sense?
Yes but it doesn’t describe conservatism.
How would you describe conservatism?
Conservatism as an ideology believes in the existence of a “natural hierarchy”, where society is ordered into people with power and people without power, and the ones with power deserve that power because that’s the natural hierarchy. Conservatives have the primary objective to enforce that imaginary hierarchy. Basically they’re the remains of Pro-Feudalists from the early days of Capitalism.
This coincides well with modern day capitalism, which also wants to enforce a “natural hierarchy” - just in its case it’s capital vs. labor instead of powerful vs. powerless people.
If you want my opinion, I’d put you in the “right wing liberal” drawer. Which, in american dimensions (because the US does not have a political left wing), would be the democratic party. If you were an actual conservative, you would use abortion as an opportunity to enforce the “women < men” power dynamic for example, because that’s one of the imaginary “natural hierarchies” conservatives believe in.
The issue is that you rely on fear to gain support. You can’t just say, “I’m opposed to illegal immigration, we need to police our borders better.” Many people are interested in regulated borders. But then many on your side make it clear hate is their motivator, playing the xenophobic line and saying shit like “because these sand n*$&ers are murderers, terrorists and rapists.” And those who aren’t saying shit like that are silent.
I’m not interested in importing deeply conservative religious people to this country that are going to threaten the societal shift toward a secular society, especially at the specific time the SCOTUS is giving religions special privileges. But by no means do I need to cultivate hate in my heart or others, unless I’m a fuck.
Where the fuck are you hearing that? Every conversation I have with my conservative friends revolves around how much immigration is reasonably doable and what number is too much strain on the system.
There’s never a racist undertone to the conversation. Immigrants can come from Africa, or Mexico, or Poland. No one I know gives a shit about who they are, just what the policy around it is
What’s the proposal? Building a wall is a joke. It doesn’t work; ignores the need for migrant workers for things like farming that don’t have viable alternatives; And ultimately is a big grift by Republican donors to get bloated contacts to build it but never really complete it in anything meaningful way.
What methodology is use in determining numbers surrounding how much immigration is doable? Is there economic metrics involved in doing this? Which ones do you use?
If you can’t find a reasonable discussion about a question anywhere, then maybe the question you’re asking isn’t reasonable.
Or maybe not
Good luck with your wish, then.
You have a reasonable take. I’m sorry you’re going to get assaulted with messages. Lemmy’s a bit of a hive mind so just know you’re not unreasonable for wanting a space where discussion can be had without bad faith. Also a conservative by the way. I’m really much more moderate, but no one here would classify me as that since the scope is shifted
Right - the US overton window is dramatically shifted to the right, and the discourse on here does not accept that as a given but rather as a subject of critical analysis.
I see boomers posting “Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.” on FB all the time, and they genuinely, unironically think they were here >strong men create good times< instead of where they really were, here >good times create weak men<, and so now we are absolutely here >weak men create hard times< thanks to them.
They’re just so close to seeing the point.
I thought it was weak men make me hard
13 year olds when they discover sex ed
For me it’s women with low standards.
The actual baby boomers were the weak men created by the good times.
The strong men created by hard times were their parents who fought in wwi and wwii
My generation (millennial/gen x) is also weak.
My children’s generation, unfortunately, might be the ones who grow to be strong, if we don’t turn around this disaster
I know you’re probably just joking on theme, but I still feel it’s important to say that this “Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times” shit is quite literally conservative mythology. It’s a line of reasoning made to justify the “necessity” of strongmen leaders (just one example) and, more often than not, starts a rabbit hole straight to fascism.
All that said though, yeah, I agree, fuck those guys thinking they’re so fuckin bad, when really they’re just losers holding us back
Historically, people have become more conservative, not as they age, but as they become more financially secure, own their own home, and want to keep more of the fruits of their labour.
That’s increasingly not happening, and we’re not happy about it.
“Fruits of their labor”
Well, fruits of exploitation of the global south that made your labor worth so much more than theirs.
People become more conservative as they gain wealth, not age.
I gained wealth and only realized how bullshit and unfair it all is 🤷♀️
Yeah, I should clarify that you have to gain wealth and also be an asshole.
I tripled my income this year, I’m more of a socialist than ever.
I want my taxes to go to something useful, instead of some dipshit’s 34th bailout.
Also negatively correlates with emotional intelligence
Boomers assuming people become conservative as a function of time as opposed to a function of “getting theirs”. I have no evidence but it seems to be you’re less likely to become conservative without having amassed some wealth to conserve…
“You need to have a sense of ownership and responsibility for your community.”
“So you’re actually going to let me invest in the community and own things?”
“What? No! Jesus, no. I want you to feel responsible for my stuff and work to preserve a status quo that will never serve you.”
100 years ago a big part of the young generation was socialist too. Look how much changed.
This whole obsession with policing people’s nationality came about because states were trying to clamp down on the massive amounts of working-class agitation that erupted across the world straight after WW1 - but all that history has essentially been scrubbed out from the “official” narratives.
This. We have to be weary that the owning class will put “leftists” in front of us to “vote for” and then this political energy will go to waste. Or they will draft us, or change the voting age, or get KOSA to pass. Idk. We gotta keep dodging the wrenches and throwing our hammers back at them.
I always find it funny how internet-commies talk about an inevitable revolution and “throwing hammers” when in reality all commies irl are basement dwelling teens with social anxiety. Otherwise you’d be normal
If normal means being an ignorant lib with no rizz, I’d actually rather be who I am.
Shock coloured hair and writing paragraphs of nonsense into internet arguments isnt rizz my mate
So why don’t you try something else?
What does this message mean?
What are you talking about? I think you missed my point
In the UK we have something called the “Shy Tory Factor”, where opinion polls almost always favour the left, because people will tell people (including pollsters) that they voted for one party, but then voted in a way they view they will be judged against.
IIRC it’s also noted in US politics, and IMO it’s highly likely that in certain areas you’ll find many people that will say all the right things in public, but secretly prefer Trump over Biden, regardless of what either party stands for.
God this is a depressing thought. We have enough people here who ARE already publicly vocal for the likes of our far right. To think that there are posers is kinda as terrifying as it is believable.
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Not sure where you live, but millennials and Gen z generally have more liberal views than conservative ones in the US, as far as I’m aware. Here’s a couple links to Pew Research Center, first is a number of statistics regarding political stances between generations (doesn’t include gen z) and the second is specifically about how Gen Z compares to older generations in political stances.
https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2018/03/01/the-generation-gap-in-american-politics/
That’s because the ones that moved left also moved to the coastal cities.
Where I live
Where is that?
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Well then you’re definitely having a different experience than urban Americans and Canadians. I will say the rural folk are keeping right wing, but the cities are full of left leaning young’uns.
That definitely doesn’t match what I’ve seen, in Canada (both Sask and Ontario), nor what polls I’ve seen (eg, on topics like LGBT acceptance).
Note that the alt right are often the loudest (at least on a per capita basis). I think this can skew perception on how common they are, since they are over represented in online comments and there’s some kinds of online comments that are completely dominated by the right (to the degree where “don’t read the comments” is a meme in leftist circles).
Location definitely matters, too. Cities are way more accepting than rural or suburban areas. If you’re in a rural or suburban area, you have my sympathy. I grew up in a rural area myself and it was awful. I think many people (myself included) are purposefully fleeing shittier areas. That means progesssives not only migrate from rural to cities, but also from shitty provinces/states to better ones.
But even within the same cities, I’ve perceived younger people to get better over time. I’m pretty hopeful for gen Z, which seems better than my generation (millenials) were at the same age. I just wish we didn’t have to wait so long for progressives to outnumber regressives.
Even as a perfectly self centered capitalist I would still pick more socialism. System has not bought my loyalty, so why should I care about it?
The very young do not always do as they are told
Seeing youth orgs like TPUSA and YAF on college and high school campuses means that we might have to start playing at their own game and not just take kids becoming socialist as default.
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It’s not happening as much at the moment. That tends to happen as people buy houses, have family and feel comfortable. All of that is happening less for the younger generations than those that came before them so they aren’t going as conservative as they age
Bro I’m thriving in this society and am as left as they come. Whole bunch of stupid ass games that are easy to play when the circumstances favor you. They’re entirely unfair and inequitable.
Winning at this shit game is nothing to be proud of.
What if they were socialists, would I become a conservative just to spite them? I am honestly not 100% certain. I very well may be just that shallow.
Immoral reactionary and proud of it?
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