What scares me is that I’ve tried to hook multiple “geekier” teenagers on Linux, and they aren’t interested. Even the math-y ones don’t know the difference between an operating system and a browser. My main computer is Arch with xmonad and it disturbs and confuses them.
We have a lost generation when it comes to computers. Lots of the little geeks that would have been playing around in the registry or learning powershell 15 years ago are so stuck in walled gardens that they don’t even know there’s a world outside of them.
that’s because an emphasis was made to be productive on technology, not imaginative while they were kids.
To be fair, Windows really hasn’t pushed Powershell all that much. They haven’t even fully ported over all of Command Prompt’s commands. You have to prefix those with
.\(I think; it’s been a while) in order to get them to run even though the error message that comes up if you don’t include that will tell you, “Hey, there’s a command named this. Prefix it with that to use it.”Now, instead of simply porting everything over, they have one app (named Terminal) running both programs.
I have no idea what CLI is. I just use Mint and don’t put much thought in.
It’s an abbreviation for Command Line Interface To Objects Residing In System. A lot of male programmers can’t find it.
I think it’s the Linux equivalent of Windows Command Prompt.
No, it’s the general term, as opposed to GUI (graphical user interface). Linux Shell, Windows command prompt and Powershell are all CLI
Oh, that thing. I have used that in the past, but it’s been a while since I’ve needed to.
I had to learn cli and server linuxes as part of uni but i haven’t used them for my fedora other than nvidia drivers and things windows users need to install putty and winscp for. It’s nice.
A true mainstream Linux distro would need guidelines like this:
- The user is never be expected to type a command into a terminal.
- The user is never be expected to edit a configuration file.
- There is a graphical UI for every possible action the user might want to (or have to) do.
This especially includes:
- Configuring audio devices
- Installing graphics drivers
- Updating the operating system
- Managing applications and storage space
- Connecting to networked storage
- Adjusting kernel parameters (This is neccessary on certain hardware, yet, barely any distro has a graphical UI for it.)
The only distro that comes close to this is Linux Mint, but not even Mint covers everything I just mentioned.
If we want Linux to succeed, there needs to be at least one distro that confidently ships without a terminal.
There can never be a distro that ships without a terminal. I will burn it with the fire of a thousand suns. Even Windows has a terminal
Windows doesn’t even cover everything you just said. The number of times Windows 10 broke my Bluetooth devices and I had to much around in registry to remove the device profile just to try to repair the device, is part of the reason I switched to Linux in the first place.
Yes, many distros need a little refining and smoothing for the general public, but only because people are so used to dealing with bullshit troubleshooting on Windows that they don’t see it as bullshit anymore.
That’s a low bar, but importantly they’re still correct that technically Windows looks like it can handle those things as far as a regular consumer can see. Windows is unholy trash, but it at least doesn’t tell people who can’t even navigate their basic file explorer that they are expected to use scary terminal commands they likely found on a forum or third-party website.
Personally I think a little more tinkering spirit would do the whole world good, not just with computers, but reality is the way that it is for the moment(things can change, fingers crossed).
but at least people who can’t even navigate their basic file explorer that they are expected to use scary terminal commands.
This! I work in IT, in fact, I’m the director of both the IT and software teams at my company and I am constantly teaching my new techs and reminding my existing techs that they need to remember just how little the “average” person knows about computers, and how much more that is than what they’d actually care to learn.
99% of people don’t care about computers, or how to make things “more efficient”, or anything else. They just care about the easiest way to do something. And like it or not, the easiest way for the vast majority of people is through a GUI.
There is even an XKCD about this
And that’s even before you get to the security problems! I am constantly trying to prevent users from going to FreeNuclearCodes.com or sending passwords and social security numbers to i7716tvq_88@gmail.com (actual email address I had to block last week)
You were absolutely right about everything up until your very last sentence.
We need a distro that comes with GUIs for everything indeed, but shipping without a terminal would be both a bad idea and would cause the distro maintainer to go up in flames immediately.
Interesting, i kinda read that quickly and took awsay from it more of a
Ships without the expectation to need a terminal, not actually ship without one at all
Seriously - Linux needs a standardized config schema spec. Something that programs should provide which an application can read and provide a frontend interface for the users to adjust config files.
Could be something like:
schema_version: 1.0 application: name: Poo Analyzer icon_path: /etc/pooanalyzer/images/icon.png description: Analyzes photos of poo schema: - config_file: path: /etc/pooanalyzer/conf/poo.conf conf_type: ini configs: - field: poo_directory type: dir_path name: Poo Image Directory description: Directory of Poo Images icon_path: /etc/pooanalyzer/images/poo.png - field: poo_type type: list name: Poo Types description: Types of Poo to Analyze values: - dog - cat - human - brown bear icon_path: /etc/pooanalyzer/images/animal.png ...Any distro could then create any frontend they’d like to manage this - the user could even install their own.
Ever heard of xdg?
I agree and disagree.
The premise is solid: unify config so it’s standardized and machine parse-able for better integrations like an easier-to-build UI/UX. It could even have ramifications for cloud-init and older IaC tech like Puppet.
The problem is Linux itself. Or rather, the subsystems that are cobbled together to make Linux a viable OS. You’re not going to get all the different projects to pivot to a common config scheme, so this YAML standard would need a backend to convert to/from whatever each little deamon and driver requires. This creates a few secondary problems like community backlash (see systemd), and having multiple places where config data must be actively synchronized.
I think the current crop of GUI config systems are aleady well down the most pragmatic path: each config panel touches one or more standard config files, wherever they are, and however they are structured. It’s not pretty under the hood, and it’s complicated, but it works. These tools just need a lot more polish on the frontend.
They could still use whatever config format they wanted - this would just be for providing their config schema. It also doesn’t need to be YAML, that’s just the easiest one for me to type on my phone. In fact, I think most schema validation programs rely on JSON as it is.
I also don’t think programs should be required to provide it. Many core programs and kernel modules would likely take years if they ever were able to add it just to avoid the risk of mistakes causing any major issues, especially if they haven’t needed an update in years. There are also many config files that use their own nonstandardized schema. A possibility is that they could be allowed to provide a CLI tool which could update the config or they could just ignore it entirely.
But creating a common schema for… well, the config schema would make it easier for systems to provide a frontend interface for updating your configs.
This particular program would work great in combination with old school German/Dutch toilets with the poop shelf, take a pic after the deed and let the program tell you how you need to adjust your diet.
The reason I had no problem whatsoever editing config files is because I’d been doing it for decades already in Windows with .ini files.
And not needing a terminal is different than not having access to one. Windows has a terminal.
I think it even ships with 3(?) terminals for some reason now for some reason lol
Been using fedora on a laptop for a year with no command line intervention.
I don’t mind the command line, but it has been uneccesary.
OpenSuse does all of this or almost all of this.
Every KDE distro can do all of these except whatever adjusting kernel parameters means? I don’t know how to do any of this in the command and I’ve been using Linux for 8 years.
No pc OS available meets your requirements for this lol, not linux, windowns or crapple osx
Sure would be nice if linux was the first available though.
I’ve been a happy daily linux user for over 20 years. No need to wait for “linux to succeed” whatever that means. It has gotten better and more advanced every year since I first switched.
I dont understand, why do we want Linux to go mainstream? Eveyone constantly says it yet nobody has an answer. In order to become mainstream it would need to be so dumbed down that people like me would stop using it.
They don’t need to take away the command line. Just to make it so a low skill user can get by without it. Even windows ships with PowerShell.
Thats the neat part, we dont need to and theres literally no benefit in doing so. Heres the cycle
Linux user suggests Linux to eveyone (like a dumbass) -> people install Linux -> its not a Windows clone -> people get pissed and complain (without doing anything constructive) -> people reinstall Windows
The fact is the more nontechnical people use Linux the more complaints maintainers get, the less detailed bug reports become, and the increase to funding/contributions will be mininal if even noticeable.
Grew up with ms-dos. Spent half my career in telnet and ssh consoles.
When I just want to play Balatro at the end of a long day fuck any system that requires more than click click to get me in.
That’s why I’m switching to Linux when windows 10 is no longer supported because fuck win 11 and the amount of regedits it’s gonna take to get that working.
“I don’t want to learn/use the CLI” is equivalent to saying “I only want to use features that have a GUI”, which you can already do on any operating system (including Linux).
No, it means not needing terminal to have a usable system or to fix it
even Windows sometimes doesn’t meet this
I believe Linux distros aimed at nontechnical users should strive to not need a user to ever use a terminal, but I also believe folks should be encouraged to try them anyways.
It’s open source, they can just make their own distro.
And that attitude is why Linux is struggling to gain market cap imho.
Yes they can, but maybe we need to embrace those who arent tech saavy?
Saying if you dont like it, go do your own thing is not very welcoming.
We should encourage people to create their own distribution, but maybe welcome people with open arms first, guide them to a flavour that works for them, and then encourage them to learn how to make it exactly what they want
Edit:
Market capture> market shareMarket cap? Which stock symbol is it? 😉
Couldn’t think of a more appropriate term, feel free to suggest some better terms
Market share
Except thats not even true because Linux has absolutely no market, there is no money in mass adoption
Why, no really tell me why we need to embrace nontechnical Linux users? What exactly does Linux have to gain? Because afaik nontechnical users dont donate, don’t contribute, and dont even appreciate the software or the work maintainers put into it (and they complain far more often). Theres always “x feature doesnt work” or “y app isn’t compatible” and suddenly “Linux isn’t ready yet”.
Well, first of all that’s just elitist/gatekeeping thinking and i find it quite frustrating. If you think about it, it’s kind of like the “we don’t want immigrants, they cause much work, cost us much and don’t contribute”. A higher market share always comes with benefits and with drawbacks. There will always be more people who contribute if the market share is higher. The same with hardware compatibility. Having widely adopted open source software will always benefit the community.
Theres a fundamental difference between installing an operating system and immigration. That difference is the value of human life. Once again Linux is not a corporate product, there is no commercial benefit in mass adoption. Furthermore the people who contribute are for the most part technical users. Using your example the fact is nearly every country gives citizenship to skilled workers far faster and for a very good reason.
Okay, I see that this comparison wasn’t really good. Thinking more about it it reads like a straw man argument and i’m sorry for that.
It indeed woudn’t offer a commercial benefit, but I do really think that it would offer a benefit humanity. Because it would lessen the power that Mocrosoft has over the computer market. If the market share is high enough it would even spark innovation because Microsoft and co would be forced to innovate to keep their market share.
I know many people who would like to have an alternative to Windows, without the hurdles Linux still comes with. And I would like to be able to tell them that there is one but sadly I can’t.Thats the fundamental problem ive been trying to get at, people fundamentally view Linux incorrectly. Linux is not a Windows competitor (at least directly) and I think thats a good thing. Linux will never run all windows software because its not Windows, that doesn’t mean its not ready. Linux will never function exactly like Windows and thats imo an amazing thing (and for those people who want their system to work like Windows they have Windows).
Linux should embrace the things that make it stand out and not try to copy other operating systems, that doesn’t make it non-user friendly. For example I love tiling, I love that Cosmic has embraced tiling, however keyboard based tiling is not naturally intuitive to Windows users. In addition I would argue that you arent forced to use the terminal, however the terminal is so powerful that its hard to ignore it. That doesn’t mean Linux GUI apps are weak, it simply means Linux TTY/TUI software is extremely powerful.
Heres the thing, I think to a certain degree Linux is a benefit for humanity. However we need to be honest about what it is and what it is not. I think naturally rather than convincing people to switch with lies or deceit we should instead focus on strengthening the community we already have. We need more people contributing to wikis, more people on forums answeing questions, and more people in IRC/Matrix chats to help people.
My final point is this, Linux (as much as I love it) fundamentally cannot challenge Microsoft in any meaningful way. OEMs simply have no reason to switch (and in many cases Microsoft has pressured OEMs to continue using windows in an illegal manner). My point is for us thats ok, Linux right now is arguably not in a bad place. Sure there are issues with legacy apps and wayland but we are slowly progressing and with the release of Cosmic I belive Linux is progressing in a distinct manner.
Haha market cap, market share , they’re still all about selling stuff so dont really apply./ Market share is normally measured in share of revenue in most industries.
There are lots of webpages, tutorials, youtubes and stuff like that for these people already. I’m sure they can also pay companies like canonical for more dedicated support if that’s what they need.
If you want to welcome people, go ahead and do it, nothing stopping you. Create the webpage or forum or youtube channel, distribution, or write the book whatever is missing. Just make sure to moderate it to remove CLI based answers and block users like me.
“I” exist and I’m sure I’m never going to be part of your “we”. The current situation of linux home user base seems just fine to me without pandering to a load of windows users. I think you should work on your desired subculture and keep me out if it. Leave me out of it - i can stay over here under my bridge in linuxmemes wearing my new programming socks.
For the home market maybe you can look at valve and steamdeck or something as an example of an acessible linux sub-culture. Valve doesn’t maintain and support that for free though. It’d be interesting to know how many full time employees they have on steamdeck OS just for the one device (and maybe a few gaming perpherals) and one GUI. Then expand that to all esoteric hardware and all GUIs . . .
I guess chromeOS and a few forks of that is another similar example - i think that’s still linux kernel based - some limitations on hardware i think.What I’d actually like to see is B2B growth (for user ) - but I don’t think linux will ever be bought by employers like mine - I know how the procurement department operates - and I can’t see that changing. There are plenty of people who don’t need my support trying business sales, redhat, canonical, suse etc and more power to them - but microsoft didn’t get big in B2B by being usable, nor by nor having “no CLI”, nor by having a supportive community to home users. They just packaged it in a way that ticked all the boxes for the corpo procurement types - though most B2B customers do need their own dedicated user support.
My presumption is that we want people too so using Windows and supporting Microsoft/Apple
If you don’t agree with that there really isn’t much for you and I to discuss, my above view doesn’t make much sense without that presumption.
So, do you think the world would be better if people stopped using Microsoft?
That’s not something that I’d think is any of my business to want or not want.
I can’t really answer the last question, I’d need to know a lot more about all thendifferent things these microsoft users are doing; what’re the alternatives; and, how disruptive might the transition be. On balance, given the uncertainties, I’d have to say probably not.
I mean if i stopped using Microsoft entirely (i.e. at work) I’d have to find a new job, probably one I’m less experienced at. And likely I’d end up working for a bigger bunch of scumbags. Likely no net gain and a load of botheration in the meanwhile.
Also i might miss the regular BSOD inspired tea breaks . . .
Eh. I’m mostly a power user, all day at work in terminals and keyboard shortcut galore.
It doesn’t prevent me from laying back and running a “filthy casual” kubuntu with little to no setup at all. At one point you reach the state where you just want to use your computer, not tinker with it all the time.
This is why Arch never stuck for me. I work with Linux all day. I don’t want to spend my free time fixing my own shit because a update broke the bootloader.
This is ultimately why I switched from Arch… Now I’ve just got an Arch distrobox and if it breaks, no big deal.
Ubuntu Server baby. That shit is absolutely rock solid, I’ve literally never had an update break stuff in the decade+ I’ve been managing it.
I am not able to comprehend what you mean. I love tinkering, ricing and starting all over again if something is permanently fucked. This is not a joke.
I respect your approach, though , ofc.
And Alexander wept, seeing as he had no more computers to set up and tinker
-Alexander (probably)
nah fuck that noise. thats what i use.
its good to know it more deeply, but i want the practicality of a stable system that gets out of the way of my shitposting.
if anything, easy stable distros are more worthy because it allows just anyone to ditch windows. instead of being a nerd’s plaything, that is.
I’ll be honest, as a macos & Linux user, even macos, the (self proclaimed) Holy Grail of accessibility and user friendliness,required me to run a few commands to fix bugs (not in weird softwares, just stuff which stopped working through reboots in the OS itself).
You can’t expect to use a computer without CLI, or what you get is windows (and even then, you might get around the CLI but you gonna need to do some cursed regedit at the first attempt of slight customization, or bug).
The only exception to this is phones, and for good reason; you hardly can do shit in phones anyway, and if it bugs all you can do is wait for the devs to fix it for you
Almost all maintenance tasks and fixes on windows come back to the command line. So I have no idea why people keep bringing it up about Linux.
Because Windows hides its (ugly ass) terminal in shame so the user never has to see its putrid face.
Linux encourages terminal use, including it as one of the base starting icons in most distros.
That’s my guess, anyways.
A meme is a great way to avoid their fury; Lynx doesn’t show images.
Been using Linux for almost two decades now. Mostly Ubuntu and now recently Linux Mint.
True Linux users build their own kernel and distro from scratch from an environment running directly in EFI
@wander1236 @Lexam with tcc, this should be possible…
https://github.com/andreiw/tinycc
normie users should be able to everything without using a terminal
My dad who retires today and who has been a Windows user since roughly 1993 has set up multiple Pi-Holes and OpenVPN in the last few years and recently even installed Ubuntu in WSL so he can run bash scripts locally too. He’s not in a tech job, he’s a doctor.
A year ago my friend who has been using Windows for his gaming for the last 22 years asked my to help him set up a Fedora dual boot. Just to play around with, even though he doesn’t have a tech background. He didn’t really use it much. But today his work had him blocked by their own fuck-up and he decided to use the time to try it out again.
This evening he told me about how he upgraded his Fedora back to a current version using GUI tools. Then he saw that Windows wasn’t the default boot in his grub boot order anymore. He tried to find an app for editing grub, realised this was the kind of thing people do with CLI. So in the next two hours he learned enough CLI using a free beginners lesson he found online somewhere, until he found the
historycommand, where he found the grub command we used during the original setup. He was so excited about this success!I think the CLI criticisms are way overblown, and non-programmers can use CLIs perfectly well if they want to.
I think the CLI criticisms are way overblown, and non-programmers can use CLIs perfectly well if they want to.
it’s not even criticism, it’s just people being lazy and not wanting to learn things, which is fine, be lazy all you want. But at least be honest with yourself about it.
I think people have trama from Windows CMD and DOS
It is much nicer these days
I was thinking that a lot of them are too young to even know what those are… My thought was that they’ve been raised on GUI for everything, without being able to tinker even if they wanted to, that the entire concept of CLI is alien to them.
For those outside of tech that’s a fair statement.
However anyone in a technical field probably has at least a base understanding of CLI. This is purely an anecdotal observation but it seems like Linux is natural for those who grow up with it.
GUIs are an awesome tool. Humans as a species have 5 senses, and instead of limiting computers to the narrow portion of sight needed for typing, they make full use of both our visual and aural senses.
That being said, they add another layer of abstraction away from the hardware on top of the already very abstract userspace utilities that abstract away the kernel that abstracts away the machine code that abstracts away the hardware.
All of which is to say that “Just Works” is shorthand for “I don’t want to actually learn how this complex tool that I’m using works, I just want it to do everything I think it should be able to based on my lack of understanding, and do so in the way that makes sense to my ignorance. And I want it to do all that without learning why we do some steps (and then I’m going to complain about how little sense it all makes).”
That mentality is what allows predatory software companies to not only take advantage of their customers—by hiding shady practices outside of the GUI, and drawing attention to and manufacturing outrage about inconsequential “features” (like ads on the start menu)—but also exist in the first place. Pushing back against that “I shouldn’t have to learn the tool to use it” mentality is one of the ways we keep scam artists and spyware dealers out of Linux spaces.
We got to approach this nuanced though. Yes, a strong stance against all the enshittification (incl. dark patterns and all that) is absolutely necessary to preserve the good things most Linux distros have in common. For example once KDE e.V. and the Gnome Foundation have finished their work at the payment backend for Flatpak repos we absolutely need to bolster Flathub + a handful of others (to avoid centralization) so they become a default, and through that are able to enforce a strong “no bullshit” moderation as companies are trying to “capture the market”. This will be an inevitable shitshow as Linux-based OS’ become more popular.
Meanwhile we have to admit that not providing comprehensible and well integrated GUIs for everything - and that includes stuff like Bootloader settings, Systemd Services Management, sysctl configuration etc. - is a shortcoming that should be remedied in the future. On rare occasions even average users will have to open these things, and it’s way better if they do so through an environment they can understand and navigate. Anything else is just gatekeeping.
Linux should be accessible to everyone - that includes normies as well as those who may not be mentally able to understand or memorize CLI. This fear of enshittification is understandable in our current landscape, but it absolutely doesn’t help if it stifles development towards more user-friendliness. After all nobody argues to take away the CLI in any capacity, just to add another abstraction layer for those who either need or want it. Which, assumably, are most people.
Anything else is just gatekeeping.
I’m not programmed to balk at that word. I’ve watched some of my favorite subcultures go to shit because of their unwillingness to seem like Evil Exclusionaries™, and I honestly don’t think defending your community from infestation by fascists or consumer mindset or whatever is a terrible stance.
By definition anything that seeks to limit who is welcome is gatekeeping, even if it’s trying to keep the evil-nazi-pedophile-personifications-of-pure-evil-that-you-hate-on-moral-grounds out. I just don’t want thoughtless users who gleefully trade in security and privacy and ownership for simplicity and ease. And I will gleefully gatekeep them all the way to obscurity and irrelevance.
Meanwhile we have to admit that not providing comprehensible and well integrated GUIs for everything - and that includes stuff like Bootloader settings, Systemd Services Management, sysctl configuration etc. - is a shortcoming that should be remedied in the future
I don’t have to admit anything. I’m not one of the devs on any of those projects, and I have no clue what challenges such integration introduces. Adding complexity (such as a making GUI) rarely comes without bugs and security risks, at the very least. Sometimes some projects are a lost cause by their very nature. And then you get people clamoring for the option that is more conducive to GUI than the ones that privilege other criteria, like performance, or security.
Linux should be accessible to everyone - that includes normies as well as those who may not be mentally able to understand or memorize CLI
Okay! They are free to create their own distro if they are unhappy with the current offerings. Or use Mac or Windows if they really just prefer the handholding. You get what you pay for.
We got to approach this nuanced though.
Nuance is for people who think more than the average end user; they can have GUIs. The rest should live and die by the CLI.
Holy shit, your reply is so phenomenally unhinged and disrespectful to other people in so many aspects it’s honestly impressive. Hope you get well soon.
Thanks! I’m not ill though, just fed up with “be extra nice to my ignorance and I might consider not making your forum/hobby/government shittier” mentality that’s worked so stellarly at curning enshittification so far.
Hope your bruised ego gets better tho! No need to shallowly disguise it as being a champion of the people, expertly defending them from someone who might push back on their self-centered worldview.
Have to ask, do you gdb everything you run ? You think of big sofwares like office or things like that. There are GUI tool who replace the command line better. I am thinking about the configure display GUI specifically. X config was a pain… We are better of with the GUI and drag and dropping screen to place them.
