The main issue I have right now: the jurisdiction of this is in the US, and to be honest, I don’t trust the US that much when it comes to privacy laws regarding the (near) future.
I donate to Ladybird and Servo, and I hope they succeed. We need serious competition and a check on Mozilla (not to mention Chrome and Safari).
That said, I’m sad that neither Ladybird or Servo are licensed under strong copyleft licenses. We need user-oriented browsers now more than ever, and strong copyleft enables that. I worry that, even if these engines are successful, they will be co-opted by proprietary browsers and eventually superseded by them.
This happened before - both Chrome and Safari ultimately derive from KHTML, Konqueror’s browser engine. If KHTML had been licnesed under the GPL instead of the LGPL, Chrome and Safari (and not just their engines) may have been free software today. Or, at the very least, it would have been much more difficult for Apple and Google to get started.
That said, I wish Ladybird the best. There donation = no influence policy is excellent, and I really, really hope they can stick to it in the long term.
How does one have a donation = no influence policy?
Huge companies donate to make open apps like this reliant on them. Then they threaten to pull the donation if that doesn’t happen…
Strong Copyleft licenses protect from this by allowing others to fork and keep an app going without being taken advantage of.
If Google donates 1 billion dollars tomorrow, and over several months, Ladybird will expand to use that money. Then Google can threaten to stop the donations unless LB does something like “make ad blockers worse”
It’s a web browser. The only money they will make is from donations. Unless they do something wonky with their business model, like charge. Then no one will use it anyway.
That would not have changed much, since browser engines are million-manhours projects and a small group of devs doing that voluntary, just isn’t enough.
Isn’t servo mostly a Mozilla-led project? I thought servo would probably just replace gecko as the engine firefox used if it ends up succeeding
Servo is developed by Igalia at this point. Mozilla is not involved.
Iirc it started its life that way but Mozilla abandoned it and the community picked it up
Alright, read up on it a bit more. Sadly the language choices (C++ now, maybe Swift later) rubs me the wrong way for something that needs to be incredibly secure against attacks. I really really support additional browser engines, but likely not this one.
Thus I think Servo is a better choice for those looking to contribute. IMHO.
Quite happy to see Servo coming along again. I am still excited for Ladybird and it seems more likely to deliver a truly viable browser sooner.
I am not a Swift dev but I think it has decent memory safety as well. I think it is one of the reasons Ladybird is moving to it. They evaluated Rust and decided it lacked the OOP features they needed.
The C++ that Ladybird writes is also very good. They have their own standard library (written for SerenityOS) which is very modern including memory safety and security. Still C++ though of course.
To go along with the alt right stuff, one of their major donors is Shopify.
Join our Discord server
crying in decentralization efforts
I’m with you. I install Legcord now so that I don’t have to install that shitty application on my actual computer. I highly recommend it for those communities that refuse to use anything else!
The Discord-based “support” makes it a “meh.” The main devs alt-right BS makes it a “hard pass.”
Alt right bs?
Lemmy was created by a tankie, many of whose opinions I abhor.
As long as it’s FOSS and doesn’t inherently promote their beliefs, I will use the software.
I agree it’s not great and I’d prefer if it weren’t made by imbeciles
Tankies are annoying, but they’re not on the same level as fascists.
Both facists and tankies have genocided disabled people and selectively killed anarchists.
As a disabled anarchist, they end up seeming pretty similar to me.
As a disabled non-anarchist, fuck both parties
TBH, it is very difficult to me differentiating between the different flavors of authoritarians.
Maybe someone can make an easy to understand comparison matrix? You know, “Kills people because they have a different opinion.”, “Suppresses minorities.”, etc.
There’s basically ideologues versus hateful people versus indifferent sociopaths (overlap is common)
I consider political ideologues and “technocrats” and extremely pedantic rule-following bureaucrats to be different flavors of ideologues (has a specific worldview they try to enforce / uphold)
Fascism, just like Communism or even a Dictatorships are not inherently bad.
We as humans key in on the oppressive authoritarianism of them as the evil in the system.
That’s why I’d recommend you lump them all together as “oppressive authoritarianism” until one of them proves us otherwise, and not to need to find the nuances between them to prove they’re bad.
Fascism, just like Communism or even a Dictatorships are not inherently bad
No offense but what the fuck are you even saying
Fascism is absolutely inherently bad, there is no removal of its evil, oppressive, and authoritarian traits after which anything is left.
In their defense, if everyone was perfect everything would be perfect.
But you’re absolutely right. As long as humans are human there’s no way to separate human nature from authority. And as a result, any system that doesn’t strictly limit scope and authority is inherently bad.
mbin is better.
Is there any source for this?
i know there was a thing at the beginning of the project where they wrote a lot of the documentation with masculine pronouns (assuming the reader was male), and when they were asked to change that for gender neutral pronouns, they said no because “they don’t want politics in their project”
beyond that however, idk if they eventually changed that or if they did other bad stuff
edit: here is a source
Not really. A random person submitted a PR with just one pronoun change in the code comments (not the documentation, and not anything remotely visible to the end user).
The developer rejected the (useless, in my opinion) PR.
Why always discord… Why!!!
because a turn key platform they don’t have to self host and maintain frees them up to do the work.
Oh shit. I despise Discord, why not a normal forum?!
I’ll be great. The big question is how long it’s left until a stable release
Ladybird says 2026. Given the current state and progress, I believe it may be quite usable by then. I use it sometimes for basic surfing and leaving forum comments. It works surprisingly well often though it is still far from general use. I think the dev team tries to use it themselves for things like Discord and GutHub. They did a demo last month where it “almost” ran Gmail.
I am not sure that Servo has set a timeline. I expect it to take longer.
Transphobic main dev ruined the project for me
Transphobic main dev […]
Do you have a source?
Under that POV stop using Volkswagen because Hitler invented it.
11 day old pro transphobia account, hmm
Wow. Calm down omg. This is not a witch hunting.
Looks like a confused Swedish dude that when questioned about his use of English pronouns defaults to not wanting to get political. Is there more besides a misguided decision to avoid relevant political topics?
I think we should chastise people that insist on not getting political, but not necessarily boycott everything they do. Or at least we should apply the same moral demands to Mozilla, Apple, Microsoft or Google when choosing which browsers to support. Which of them is the least bad?
There is nothing political about acknowledging peoples’ existence.
Existence? Because somebody used a wrong pronoun?
You’re right, words are meaningless and language has no bearing on society at large. after all, fuiebt eidiowb rhe efifo quifopim.
The hyperbole here is insane. My trans friend’s Japanese parents are supportive of him, but they have some trouble with pronouns. If you’re not a native English speaker and learned the standard pronouns, then I think it’s just naturally too confusing. Pretty much all of them are translating in their minds in real-time.
There’s a big difference between negating the existence of people and what happend in this case, i.e. somebody writing a comment (only visible to him and other developers) using the male form.
Language is extremely powerful. This is all part of the erasure (an integral part btw).
Hmm I don’t think you really understand what happened.
The developer wrote a comment (not visible to the end user) using the male form.
A random person opened a pull request without any useful changes, except for changing that comment from “he” to “their”.
The developer rejected that PR because it’s politically motivated and it doesn’t add anything else.
I know what happened. Is it a stupid, unnecessary fix? Sure, probably. But that doesn’t mean it’s political. Trans people simply existing is not a political issue.
Right, except that’s not politically motivated, and is a useful change for people reading the code, both for women and non-binary people.
Calling pronouns “political” is the dogwhistle they always use
Don’t think we should be scared of the word “political” or “ideology”.
I see zero reason to out the “transphobic” label on the dev.
Think and read before labelling people.
Calling pronouns political is a straight up dog whistle
Totally excessive in view of the facts.
There are so few alternative browsers and the collapse of the privacy is so global. That seems to me a minor point in relation to the goal.
ugh transphobia rots people’s brains
it’s not too hard to just be a decent person ppl
I can’t see anything about this on DuckDuckGo. Do you have a link?
https://mkultra.monster/tech/2024/07/03/serenityos-and-ladybird
This was a little „write-up“ back when everything became more public.
I’m surprised this got any kind of attention.
Here’s the turn of events from my perspective:
- Someone submits a 1-line PR changing the gender used in a code comment
- PR rejected on the grounds that the change is “politically motivated”
- Submitter got mad, and proposed removing the rule against “politically motivated” changes, calling it “white supremacist,” which is closed
- Someone wrote a blog post about it
Here’s my analysis:
- Stupid change - don’t make PRs that simply correct an irrelevant typo in a comment somewhere; some people do this to put stuff on a resume (look at how much FOSS work I do!), and it just wastes everyone’s time
- Stupid response - it should’ve been rejected because it’s a useless change, not because it’s “politically motivated”
- Stupid proposal - do you really want to waste a bunch of time fighting over wording in a comment? Because that’s the kind of crap you get without a rule like this.
- This is all about an irrelevant change to a comment? Why is this getting so much attention?
I should be an idiot. I dont see a direct relationship between race and sexual orientation. Even if the PR was rejected because a pronounce how the hell this is white supremacist?
Well, didn’t the Nazis also discriminate against gay people?
That said, it’s a massive leap to go from “rejects 1 line PR that only changes gender in a comment” to literal Nazi…
“comments must be accurate,” is not a rule you should bend. Bending it even a little leads to last programming and shit code.
True, but that only applies if it’s misleading. For example:
// pythagoran theorem distance = abs(p2.x - p1.x) + abs(p2.y - p1.y);Fixing that makes sense because it’s wrong and misleading (it’s actually Manhattan distance), and a quick glace is insufficient to tell the difference.
But fixing a typo or something that wouldn’t be confusing is just noise and should only be fixed with other changes. For example, I intentionally misspelled Pythagorean in my comment above, fixing that to be the right spelling would be a useless change, even if the distance formula used the hypotenuse. It wouldn’t be an unreasonable policy to reject PRs that only fix spelling or similar to reduce noise for the maintainers.
Yep, I understand but disagree. Maybe it comes from working with so many ESL coders, but I’ll happily accept typo corrections because it’s not always obvious what words should be if you’re not steeped in the culture.
It really depends on the project.
If you’re a larger project, you can see a ton of these from people hoping to land a commit to put “contributor to X” on a resume somewhere. Those add up and are really distracting and possibly automated. They waste everyone’s time, especially if they spawn a bunch of conversion like this did.
If you’re a smaller project, it doesn’t matter as much. I work with ESL coders too, so I get it (1/4 of my office is ESL immigrants, and ~2/3 of the broader team is ESL). I fix comments all the time, I just include them with other changes.
So it depends. But in general, a high profile project should reject this noise to discourage this behavior.
“We don’t accept ideologically motivated changes” = White supremacist language… Yeah, sounds about like what I expected…
Thank you for sharing.
It was a niche story, I’ll have to dig through the GitHub issues. Basically someone tried to change the documentation pronouns to be gender neutral rather than masculine and the lead dev had a freak out and refused. Really soured me on the project
Someone else posted a writeup about it.
It wasn’t in documentation, but a code comment. No user would see this.
One part was a rejected change on the README, which was trying to remove this “white supremacist language”:
## On ideologically motivated changes
This is a purely technical project. As such, it is not an appropriate arena to advertise your personal politics or religious beliefs. Any changes that appear ideologically motivated will be rejected.
Someone changing “he” to “they” (original PR that started all this) in a comment as their only change could absolutely be seen as “politically motivated.” My understanding is that if changing the comment was part of some larger useful change, it would be fine (as would using “she” or “they” in a new comment), but just changing the gender of a pronoun in a comment is a useless change.
If the comment said “she,” would someone have been motivated to make this change? Probably not. Should changing this from “she” to some other pronoun (he or they) also be rejected? Yes, on the same grounds as changing it from “he,” it’s not a useful change and just wastes everyone’s time. If you’re in the code already, then go ahead, correct silly language like this if you care to.
Inclusive pronouns are not political, full stop.
They are political, because people (I’m not one of them) think they shouldn’t be allowed and there are only two genders (e.g. the current president of the US).
I never said they were.
Someone changing “he” to “they” (original PR that started all this) in a comment as their only change could absolutely be seen as “politically motivated.”
Look at the fallout in the comments on those PRs, it quickly devolved into politics and quickly away from any technical merit.
If this exact same change were included with other changes, I highly doubt anyone would’ve cared about the comment. The issue isn’t with the text of the comment, but with the likely motivation and the actual merits of the PR. Many projects immediately reject tiny PRs because they clog up the review queue, and that appears to be what’s happening here, plus all the political nonsense in the issue comments.
deleted by creator
“Don’t Be Evil” happily indexing while Bingcrosoft sleeps
Maybe disabling JavaScript helps?
DDG search is garbage, I’m sorry… Whenever I switch to a browser that defaults to it, I’m reminded why I always switch it back to Google (unfortunately). Even Yandex is better, and that’s prob Russian spyware.
there’s startpage which is a Google wrapper if you’re interested
Actually just tried this for the first time yesterday after switching to librewolf. Have only used it once, but already seems better than DDG.
Try out SearXNG.
Good, the world is in dire need of competition in this arena.
Politics aside, I’d be curious to see how far something like this can go. Can’t not think of Opera Software - even they were not successful while they were using their own proprietary tech.
We definitely need more competition in the browser space, I just wish it wasn’t using such a permissive license as the BSD.
You’re free to fork and use a more restrictive license, that’s one of the cool things about BSD licenses. It’s not like it’s something dumb like the CDDL, which is incompatible with the GPL (and many other licenses) and the reason ZFS can’t be directly included in the kernel.
A good breakdown on their progress: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43200604
Totally not related to recent events
I love it when I see Ladybird come up! ESPECIALLY now with the ongoing enshittification of FF lmao
I’ve been testing it out, it’s pretty fucking rad.
