Zhang Yazhou was sitting in the passenger seat of her Tesla Model 3 when she said she heard her father’s panicked voice: The brakes don’t work! Approaching a red light, her father swerved around two cars before plowing into an SUV and a sedan and crashing into a large concrete barrier.
Stunned, Zhang gazed at the deflating airbag in front of her. She could never have imagined what was to come: Tesla sued her for defamation for complaining publicly about the car’s brakes — and won. A Chinese court ordered Zhang to pay more than $23,000 in damages and publicly apologize to the $1.1 trillion company.
Zhang is not the only one to find herself in the crosshairs of Tesla, which is led by Elon Musk, among the richest men in the world and a self-described “ free speech absolutist.” Over the last four years, Tesla has sued at least six car owners in China who had sudden vehicle malfunctions, quality complaints or accidents they claimed were caused by mechanical failures.
This would be seen as too absurd even for a 90s or 2000s dystopian sci-fi movie. Tesla’s advancements in automotives has always been about sending out half-baked tech and having the people test it at their expense, while other EV manufacturers did it the traditional way of actually testing the shit in proper facilities before putting it on the market…
Elon should sue himself for defaming himself
Die in a Tesla? Believe it or not, jail.
I hope this eats the shit out of their Chinese market. It dropped quite a bit in other areas but like 10-11% in China. I want to see everyone dump Tesla.
I used to admire him when I was younger. Now, I would queue in line to kick him in the gonads.
The brakes in these things have a lot of safety features and logging added to them.
If the brake was pressed, it’s easy to prove with the cars logs. It’s how most of the unintended acceleration stuff goes.
If you press the brake and the accelerator at the same time the brake will win as well.
She put seals on the doors to prevent Tesla from accessing the interior saying she didnt trust Tesla, and she refused 3rd party independent testing that Tesla offered to pay for.
Nothing about this specific incident helps her credibility at all.
Also, this story is old.
If a Chinese court would side with an American company against its own citizens it means one of two things:
- The girl’s father was really at fault.
- The judicial system in China is fucked up beyond repair.
2**
And another superpower near you will be like this in a decade
Japan has similar laws curbing free speech. It comes down to the east asian concept concept of ‘face’.
Japan’s defamation/libel laws, similar to this Tesla case China, don’t matter if what you said is true. What matters is that you disrespected the ‘face’ and reputation of those in power.
For example, if a news agency reports on a rapist, or an individual puts up a bad review online: it doesn’t matter if it is true. The ‘victim’ sues you for libel/defamation for speaking the truth because you didn’t “give them face” and you hurt their public reputation. Expect the police to come knocking and ask you to remove your truthful reviews, or you risk jail time or civil penalties.
Edit:
The judicial system in China is fucked up beyond repair.
I suspect the judicial system here is working exactly as intended. Its the laws in Japan/China that are fucked when it comes to free speech vs protecting the ‘face’ of those in power.
Japan’s defamation/libel laws, similar to this Tesla case China, don’t matter if what you said is true. What matters is that you disrespected the ‘face’ and reputation of those in power.
That is the stupidest fucking idea I have ever heard
Yeah I found it preposterous when I heard of such laws in Japan. Also the fact that you can get YEARS in prison for such a thing is even more fucked up. The disparity between three years and 500,000 yen, which is close to 3500$US is also ridiculous.
In some Asian cultures, saving face is the most important thing in the world. Doesn’t matter if people die, as long as nobody important loses face.
There are other countries, not in East Asia, where that’s also true: for example, in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf monarchies. Reputation and respect for hierarchy is a big thing in old-school Arab culture, though in other parts of the Arab world such as Lebanon, there is a rich repertoire of invective and shit-talking that’d make a New York cabbie blush.
I stand by my original statement.
I wasn’t disagreeing with you, more like elaborating tbh.
I find it ridiculous too. It’s also one of the reasons everyone in the software industry has bad experiences with outsourced Indian software engineers - they’ll tell you it can be done, whatever ‘it’ is. They don’t ask for guidance because that would be losing face. And then you have Indian engineers reinventing bicycles, except the wheels are square. The other reason is socioeconomic in nature and irrelevant to the discussion here.
Agreed. I live in Japan and self censor what I say online, avoid leaving negative but truthful business reviews, because there is a very real risk of being sued for libel.
Truth is also not a defense for defamation in the UK, though the law was changed about a decade ago to limit the potential for abuse. The UK is a popular venue to sue for defamation because it gives the plaintiffs a relatively easy ride.
In your second link it contradicts what you say about it not mattering if it’s true, right below the section you quoted:
“If the act relates to matters of public interest and has been conducted solely for the benefit of the public, the truth or falsity of the alleged facts shall be examined, and punishment shall not be imposed if they are proven to be true. (See Article 230-2 of the Criminal Code). Article 32 of the Criminal Code provides for the Statute of Limitations for filing a criminal action for defamation which shall prescribe in ten (10) years.”
Yes, if you only consider the letter of the law. But the spirit of the law and the pro-business, pro-those-in-power courts rarely rule in the individual’s favor. The laws weren’t made for you the individual.
Don’t Get Sued! Libel, Slander, and Defamation Laws in Japan
More relevant discussion here about the concept of face.
edit: Key comment here:
“The law in Japan has a cultural and legal background in much older laws about “damage to honour”. Anything that damages someone’s social standing, regardless of whether a specific claim is being made, is not on and is liable to be considered defamatory. Further, the lack of a specific claim makes the “truth and public interest” bar much, much harder to meet since you can’t claim that your statement was truthful or in the public interest if there’s no specific claim the business or person can respond to. If you’re just being insulting you’re one a one-way trip to a legal spanking.”
I live in Japan and self censor what I say online, avoid leaving negative but truthful business reviews, because there is a very real risk of being sued for libel.
It’s definitely the second. There’s a reason people joke about “Tiananman Square 1989”. Everything is censored to hell and back
Well, the article does say that Tesla enjoys the patronage of powerful members of the CCP. Like any capitalist society, China is ruled by the elite, and the elite are friendly with Tesla.
It’s not whether the girls father is at fault, read the article. She put a lot of effort into publicly defaming the company to try to get damages. While it seems like they should have had a better response, including sharing the evidence they had, there has to be a better way to get justice
she draped her damaged car with a banner proclaiming “Tesla brake failure” in front of the Tesla dealership in Zhengzhou, the capital of Henan province, some 200 km (124 miles) from her home. She sat on the Tesla’s roof and blared her protest through a bullhorn: “Tesla Model 3 brakes failed,” she said. “A family of four almost died.” The next month, she parked her damaged car outside an auto show in Zhengzhou
she draped her damaged car with a banner proclaiming “Tesla brake failure” in front of the Tesla dealership in Zhengzhou, the capital of Henan province, some 200 km (124 miles) from her home. She sat on the Tesla’s roof and blared her protest through a bullhorn: “Tesla Model 3 brakes failed,” she said. “A family of four almost died.” The next month, she parked her damaged car outside an auto show in Zhengzhou
All those things are perfectly reasonable if there actually was a brake failure. That car almost killed her family. If Tesla doesn’t want to be called out don’t put dangerous vehicles on the road.
Of the many issues Tesla has, this is not one of them. They have the telemetry for proof: I blame them for not being more forthcoming with it, and hopefully that would be mandatory in any trial.
However you’re applying Western standards, and many other in this thread talk about “saving face” and that liable is not contingent on the truth in China. She knew what the law is and decided to ignore it hoping that a Western style pr protest would work. Apparently she was wrong, and the result is consistent with what she should have expected.
If they provided the data and it was reviewed by a neutral third party that found them not to be at fault fair enough but aren’t those cars supposed to have self driving features that would prevent something like this?
With Musk, I’m guessing #2.
Reason 412 why I’ll never get in a Tesla.
Freeze Peach Musk and the SLAPP Suit.
Am I just too old for this or does it legitimately not mean anything?
Consumer protection is key for any country.
Too bad the US seems to have shut down its consumer protection agencies.
Help me Futo’s Louis Rossmann, you’re my only hope.
It is not common practice for automakers — in China or elsewhere — to sue their customers. But Tesla has pioneered an aggressive legal strategy and leveraged the patronage of powerful leaders in China’s ruling Communist Party to silence critics, reap financial rewards and limit its accountability.
This was very explicitly in China. That’s not to say we’re doing much better though.
We have the same thing here in America but instead it’s a matter of law. Forced arbitrary, gag agreements, years of backlog, upfront fees and cost of getting representation, legal hurdles and delays, and laughable payouts is the same thing. Just a different flavor.
This was in China though.
I don’t see any reason to think they didn’t realize that.
For now.
coming soon…
Fun fact: electric brakes, “brake by wire”, dont have mechanical backups.
I trust the rusty hydraulic brake lines on my XJ Cherokee more than i trust Tesla to not have electrical glitches.Edit: I’m not certain Teslas are using brake-by-wire and i was assuming they were based on an article i read a while ago.
I will continue shit-talking Teslas, regardless.
One reason to trust hydraulic brakes is that Federal regulations require redundancy and graceful degradation. A vehicle has two hydraulic brake systems, each controlling diagonally opposite wheels. I don’t know much about Tesla brakes, except that they use regenerative braking as well as disks.
Depends on the vehicle. My Nissan Leaf (full electric) and Chevy Volt (plug in hybrid) both brake primarily with regenerative braking, but pushing the brake pedal past a certain point engages conventional brakes.
I don’t think it’s even possible to come to a full stop in either vehicle without engaging the physical brake. Regenerative braking doesn’t do much when you get under 10 MPH or so.
I would think it’s possible for them to come to a full stop with regen breaking smaller personal electric vehicles can lock their wheels coming to a stop ie skateboards and the like
Just talking from my own experience with these two vehicles, they will continue creeping along until I feel the physical brake engage.
It makes a certain amount of sense that a car that isn’t moving can’t generate power by stopping, and no regeneration means no regenerative braking. Were the car completely stopped it would have to start moving a little to get braking power, and imperfect efficiency would mean it’s never going to be enough to stop the vehicle completely.
I know what you’re talking about with smaller electric vehicles, but I think that locking operates on different principles. I don’t think many of those have regenerative braking because the math doesn’t make it practical at that scale. I definitely don’t put myself forward as an expert though.
Ah yea I wasn’t sure I know that they can use regen but it may operate on different principles cause i know my backfire board does advertise it and when used properly does actually add a few miles which on a skateboard does help a lot but I’m no expert either just have to many miles on my board pushing 1200 in under 2 years
Regenerative braking and brake by wire are 2 very different things. One is the brake pedal engaging an energy generating device based on current resistance/momentum until certain physical conditions are met, the other is the brake pedal being attached to essentially a trigger like on a game consoles controller, that tells a computer how hard you pressed the pedal, which then thinks about it and tells the calipers to engage the amount it thinks you meant.
The Nissan Leaf is not brake-by-wire—the brake pedal is directly connected to the car’s hydraulic braking system.
If your electric brake-assist failed you would still have conventional hydraulic brakes.
But Tesla is not brake by wire like that. The brake pedal is connected directly to the hydraulic system, right?
I think you’re right, actially. I incorrectly assumed Tesla was full brake-by-wire at this point.
Jk wrangler. Electrical issues out the ass, but nothing that’d be fatal.
Wtf
