there’s more than shown here and it’s more than just these users too 😭
if you find the thread don’t piss in the popcorn (brigade) but also please maybe don’t bring it back here i don’t want 400 notifications of entry level “is almond milk milk” vegan discourse
Transcribing the conversation here:
Recessa, ↑4 ↓1: That’s completely idiotic, milk exist because there’s demand for it.
commie, ↑1 ↓4: I think you understand that milk is produced as part of the mammalian reproductive cycle. can you describe the causal steps between demanding milk and it’s production?
friendlymessage, ↑3 ↓2: Do you think dairy cattle just randomly spawns on the planetary surface?
commie, ↑1 ↓3: do you think there’s a direct causal link between drinking milk and more being produced?
friendlymessage, ↑3: Are you fucking with me?
commie, ↑2 ↓3: no. I’m trying to illustrate that markets are not governed by natural law; they are populated by irrational actors.
friendlymessage, ↑2 ↓1: Yeah, but they’re not as irrational as you are and producing milk costs money. If there’s no market, they will stop because they are not fuckin lunatics and they don’t have infinite resources
commie, ↑2 ↓2: milk was farmed before markets existed. there is no reason to believe that will ever stop.
friendlymessage, ↑3 ↓1: That… must be the dumbest discussion I’ve had in a while. Please read through your comments tomorrow when you’re sober
commie, ↑1 ↓1: I’ve been sober all day.
friendlymessage, ↑1: Okay, whatever you say
commie, ↑1 ↓2: everything I’ve said is true. you’re objecting to reality, and being pretty shitty about it to me.
friendlymessage, ↑2: No, you’re just making a no sensical argument at all. Milk was farmed from dairy cattle because it was consumed by humans. It’s simple supply and demand. There is no rational argument at all that if mankind stopped consuming milk, it would still be farmed. Why would any farmer go through the effort to upkeep cows and keep them impregnanted to make them produce milk if they cannot trade it or won’t consume it? Yes, humans have free will but they won’t produce stuff with very high effort just for fun. Except maybe very sick minds that just enjoy animal cruelty. And you won’t elaborate what your actual point is anyway.
Also, not that it matters, but you’re arguing that dairy farming existed before the market is simply wrong. There has been trade between human civilizations long before we started domesticating animals.
There’s a common misunderstanding among a lot of .ml folks that markets are a capitalist thing and if you just don’t call them that then they don’t exist.
… they’re not a .ml user
Also it’s just untrue lol? We know markets predate capitalism, I’d be surprised to find anyone disagreeing
Everyone knows that history starts at the industrial revolution and no one had went “hey I’ll give you two goats if you give me some salt” before that.
Obviously nobody drank milk in the USSR shitlib
I agree with friendlymessage, but my god is he an ass about it
In my defense: there already was a very deep comment chain before this and the whole thing was just infuriatingly stupid
@friendlymessage@feddit.org is an ass about it because commie is constantly all over Lemmy defending the dairy industry in the most asinine and stubborn ways imaginable (with an air of Ben Shapiro’s “facts and logic” attitude), and it’s completely insufferable. They’re genuinely on a similar level to what UniversalMonk was on !politics@lemmy.world. Every one of their disinformation-laden arguments is trivially debunked with even five seconds of thought, but they speak on it with absolute, unwavering confidence and accept literally no evidence to the contrary when they just make shit up out of thin air (as a cherry on top, they also create untenable comment chains by posting at least two comments in response to every single one of your replies to them). They make Lemmy a worse place by being here.
Can you rephrase their argument? To me it’s nonsense
Commie thinks that milk is just a byproduct of cows existing. Friendlymessage correctly points out that you need to repeatedly get cows pregnant, take away their calves, and feed them to produce milk and nobody would do it if there wasn’t a market demand. In essence, there’s zero situation where milk can be ethically vegan if that’s your ethical framework.
Commie implied that milk was farmed before markets existed and I was honestly baffled
I didn’t have a good grasp of history. apparently we mined before developing agriculture, which is wild to me.
What would mining have to do with agriculture and therefore milk?
mining was the Genesis if trade, but it’s assumed it would have followed trade. I also was mistaken that trade would, therefore, follow animal agriculture.
I never said that
no u
😾 meanie head
risking incivility, duh.
it’s an animal product
Edit: incorrect: You don’t need to keep getting them pregnant, you just need to consistently keep milking them. Milk production continues for as long as it is not left untaken. Definitely not vegan at all.
That’s absolutely incorrect. It’s a significant amount of time, around 10 months, but you have to repeatedly get a cow pregnant over their useful life in order to continue getting milk from them. They will go dry faster if you don’t milk them, but the cycle of pregnant/lactating/dry/pregnant is fundamental in managing a herd.
I stand corrected.
This is btw one main reason why milk is murder, because many of those calves are often killed for their meat. The other reason is that cows stop beeing productive and are killed way before their natural death, since the replacement calves are rdy to go (I think it was something like after 5 years with their natural life span beeing around 25, but I’m not sure if I remember correctly).
A bit oversimplified, but just to add a bit more context why vegans don’t drink milk.
What about plant-based milk such as Soy Bean Milk - would that work as a suitable less resource intensive alternative?
“many” is doing a lot of lifting here.
the majority of Castle are slaughtered at full weight. hardly any become veal
At least 50% of them are killed - very, very few males make it to adulthood.
friendlymessage is arguing that if there’s no demand for milk (ie people stop drinking milk), then the production of milk will fall or cease.
I have no idea what commie is talking about
Thank you for your service o>
Appreciate it but your comment got auto corrected on two instances of “causal” to “casual” by commie.
Oh, I don’t use autocorrect, so that was probably my mistake. Fixed it now!