ID: Drawing of a duck billed platypus underwater, they’re wearing a rainbow coloured t shirt and a pink bum-bag, and saying: “Ally is not something you can self-identify as, it’s a title that you earn. Let your actions speak for themselves!”
Credit: Sophie Labelle
Wow, this thread had me bringing out the ban hammer a lot!
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There is no space on this instance or its communities for “allies” who think the tone of queer folks comics is the real issue that needs to be talked about
Thank you so much for diving in to the cesspit, I knew there would be some push back, there always is, but I didn’t think it’d get this bad (and I have a lot of these people blocked already, so I can only imagine, because I’m not going to look, not today satan!). Sorry you have to spend your time dealing with the mess! 😩
ITT people are thinking this post is about them, but it feels like it’s more targeted at the “The A is for ally!” types. (Thinking A in LGBTQIA is for ally instead of asexual.)
Why not both? 🤷♀️
I feel like the two groups are close to a circle in a Venn diagram - privileged people there to make it about themselves (in the form of self aggrandization and claiming non-existent victimhood and marginalisation) rather than about the marginalised people they claim to support (and only do superficially and entirely conditionally).
I’ve had people misgender me and try to convince me not to transition and then go claim to be trans allies because they don’t call people slurs and will say that killing trans people is bad if asked
That sucks. It’s bigotry and then gaslighting, and then on top of it all we’re somehow to blame for them being that way because we’re not eternally grateful and fawn all over them for reluctantly giving us the barest of bare minimum decency and respect, and therefor leave them no choice (in their eyes of course).
I agree with speaking with your actions here, but at the same time, this seems like some weirdly unnecessary gatekeeping.
If you’re not actually doing any allyship, in what sense are you an ally?
Theoretical allyship is irrelevant.
Simply saying out loud you support it IS supporting it.
I mean, it’s the minimum amount, but thats more than none.
Posting is not praxis. You have affected nobody’s lives or material conditions through posting.
That’s not true though. Posting/commenting radical thought is a role that helps. Sure, it’s not much, but it’s certainly not nothing.
When there’s an open investigation against me and I have to lay low for a while, it directly improves my life to have leftist content to enjoy, which in turn keeps me going so I can continue to improve the lives of others
Someone spending their time making a meme for a leftist community is also effectively making propaganda that I’ll later text to someone, which may further radicalize them, even if just by a little.
Marx himself literally said:
All social life is essentially practical. All the mysteries which lead theory towards mysticism find their rational solution in human praxis and in the comprehension of this praxis. (8th thesis)
Just because social media didn’t exist then doesn’t mean it doesn’t count now
Edit: also, within this specific context, it definitely can directly improve people’s lives to see allyship simply signified both in-person and online. It personally makes me feel safer, and that’s important
Hell, you don’t even need to be particularly active. Even telling your weird coworker that gay people are people too might help.
You don’t get applause for it, but it helps.
I’m not a person with a minority Sexual Orientation/Gender Identity, but here are my two cents: I think upvoting supportive content in a space that’s safe and welcoming to people with minority SOGIs is zero impact, online commenting in that same welcoming space is about as impactful as upvoting in a less welcoming space, both of which are directly adjacent to zero impact. I reckon that negatively reacting to an SOGI antagonist (eg the coworker you mentioned), is an appreciable act of allyship, more impact than a token gesture during Pride. I’m not sure if it would be higher or lower than an anonymous complaint to HR about discriminatory language.
You affected my life by causing me to write this stupid comment proving your even stupider comment wrong. And now I’ve affected your life, because you’ve been confronted with your own faulty logic, and even if you don’t respond, you still thought about it and you can never not have.
What is allyship to you?
Does one need to be overtly politically active or can one simply change minds in their social circles?
Must they sign petitions and call politicians or can they simply be a comforting or understanding shoulder to a marginalised person?
How much legwork is required to be an Ally? Is there a scorecard to keep in order to meet criteria?
Obviously, passive acceptance without any action isn’t explicit allyship but must one be openly militant about LGBT issues in order to be considered an ally?
Does the real answer not lie somewhere in between? Maybe on a spectrum or sliding scale?
The real answer is measured in how your actions have affected the lives of the people you claim to be an ally of.
No, this isn’t always practical to measure, but if someone is saying “I’m an ally because I identify as an ally”, I’m certain they have done absolutely nothing to protect/advance the rights of LGBT+ people.
So in your opinion indirect action may as well be inaction?
Say I have coworkers with certain opinions on gendering people, use of pronouns or who still use dated terms like “Tranny” or “Shemale”.
I spend my days correcting them when they misgender or reminding them of acceptable words to describe people. I have political discussions where we come to terms about how LGBT rights are human rights. They’ve corrected their behaviour and now speak of LGBT folks in a kinder light.
I don’t directly see how those actions affect LGBT folks. I don’t have tangible evidence I have made a person’s life better through my actions.
Am I an Ally or not?
No, indirect action is a form of action, stopping a transphobe from being transphobic is a form of allyship, because presumably, you’ve saved a trans person from feeling unsafe around that person.
Ok, so proclaiming yourself an ally doesn’t make you an ally, unless 1 person notices it?
I feel that someone noticing it is a part of “proclaiming”, but I agree with you. I do think you worded it rather strictly and awkwardly. Telling yourself that you’re an ally is worthless, telling someone else has value.
Because you stated that, on the presumption their actions prevented transphobia, that person would be an ally. But that presumption can only be fact checked by themselves anyway; Does this not mean then, that a person should have the right to label themselves an ally if they self-assess their actions as allyship?
Or does someone have to ally-check each of their actions once performed with some sort of… council or committee, as I have here?
It’s not that deep, we don’t need a rigorous philosophically consistent way to measure allyship.
Part of it may be identifying as an ally as a first step. If you internaliz “I am an ally” your future actions will probably more align with that identity. People like to be true to themselves, let them identify as good things without gatekeeping it.
I think making it part of your identity rather than something you’re trying to get good at, like an exercise or craft you’ve never done before, makes people more likely to be defensive about the ways they’re not “perfect” allies.
I don’t think what you’re getting at is wrong, it could be helpful to some people to have something like that to tell themselves for motivation. Something like “I will do what I can to be an ally” or “I will be an ally today” might be better; it’s an aspirational thing that needs constant effort, like staying fit.
Which I realize isn’t super fun and sexy the way having a word to put in your social media profile is. But it’s an “any man who must say ‘I am the king’ is no true king” situation, you know?
Counterpoint. Yes, it’s anecdotal, but the biggest success my mother has had in kicking her cigarette habit has been identifying herself as a non-smoker. She did that before cutting back at all, and now she’s from 35/day to 6. Every other attempt, she’s identified as a smoker trying to quit, and it’s failed.
Same theory - let them identify as what they want to be. Once they identify as such, the behavior will follow easier than if they’re saying “I’m trying to be an ally”.
OK, that person is on their way to becoming an ally.
There is still no physical difference in the world brought on by thoughts that exist only in their head. Theory without practice.
And your denying them any openness and acceptance as someone actively trying to become better, even in the smallest of steps, is denying said people reason to grow. Shit doesn’t happen overnight.
Values guide action. Humans can use cognitive rules to exhibit entirely new behaviors in entirely new situations, behaviors that are consistent with the cognitive rules. Theory may not be relevant if the situation doesn’t activate the relevant neural networks, but if someone doesn’t have ‘ally values’ how do you think they will behave in the future?
I should have been more clear, I meant it’s irrelevant to whether one is an ally or not, because that is determined by practice.
If someone feels like this post (or any other boundary set by the people they claim to want to support) is keeping them from being an ally, they never were one in the first place.
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Absolutely unhinged
I don’t think this post is keeping anyone from being an ally, it just kinda sounds like there is some authority that decides if you are an ally or not.
I think your core message is “don’t go around telling people you’re an ally, go BE an ally”, but it could be misinterpreted.
There IS an authority - it’s whatever group you’re claiming to help. They’re the ones who get to decide if you actually ARE helping or not, and it works like this for a bunch of honorary titles.
Are you saying that everyone who disagrees with you personally isn’t an ally of the entire group?
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This isn’t about purity, but you tell yourself whatever you need to to avoid engaging in the mild discomfort of unlearning and challenging your privilege, existing bias, and the status quo, I guess… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
This is reinforcing their point though. The person you’re responding to almost certainly supports you unconditionally. But you’re at odds here because of a difference in experience/strife.
I recognize I have no horse in the race, but I do go out of my way to offer support. All I’m saying is your efforts are better spent fighting actual bigotry.
No, it’s right. You can’t form an alliance with somebody without their consent. If you want to be someone’s ally, they’re allowed to disagree.
And you post things with titles such as ‘duck billed platypus’.
Divide and conquer is a strategy as old as time. Can’t fault you for trying.
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You’re right, it sucks being told how you can and can’t identify. The purpose of the post seems to be to motivate allies to take more action to help. But I agree that the phrasing is problematic.
Just keep being supportive of LGBT people in real life and ignore random memes online. I consider wearing a pin as an action that qualifies as an ally. It’s looking like LGBT people might need more help than just a pin with the way governments are heading.
Also if you are dealing with people online, consider that they may be bots or trolls who may not even be LGBT purposely attempting to cause division.
Just keep wearing that pin, speak out against hate and maybe chill the fuck out?
No, no, don’t you see? They’re the real victim here!
Ok so do I wear the pin or not?
You wear the pin if it helps your sister. If it helps your sister, you’re an ally.
“I have a marginalised sister who I want to support, but a generalised post on the internet that I took as a personal attack (if the shoe fits ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ) hurt my feelings by not prioritising them above her oppression and the oppression of those like her, and didn’t make sure to centre me and praise me for my minimal empathy every step of the way, so now I’m not gonna! I’M tHe rEaL vIctiM hEre! sToP oPprEsSiNg mE!!!11” 🙄
You self identified allies just can’t fucking help but out yourselves, can you?
I have been active for decades in support of LGBT rights. Your commentary here is poisonous enough to bother me. This is not the way.
That person wants you to tell them what to do. They’re looking to you as a leader. Embrace the opportunity to make change by being a good leader who gives clear instructions.
I am not interested in leading anyone, and my life, and the lives of marginalised people in general aren’t a fucking educational opportunity. We are not obligated to invest endless time and energy, which we are already deprived of due to having to fight just to exist, to earn that right to exist from those more privileged than us.
If they genuinely want to be good allies, literally all they have to do is open a search engine and start looking through the endless information that already exists out there and start from there, instead of demanding it be spoon fed directly too them by the people directly impacted (and therefore fatigued), especially after they’ve shown zero initiative or interests in educating themselves.
especially after they’ve shown zero initiative or interests in educating themselves.
That’s literally what they’re trying to do right here and now and your spitting in their faces. Maybe don’t post memes about how to be an ally if you don’t want to actually help anyone be an ally, it’s more counterproductive to your cause than the apathetic allies you’re bemoaning.
What did they even say? I think they deleted their account or got perma banned from their instance because I can’t even find their account on their instance now.
They just asked what they could do to help be an ally, but it turns out the post OP is just a concern troll and doesn’t actually give a shit about allyship.
Okay, do you mind if drag tells them what to do instead?
The point is - if it’s for your sister… Ask your sister.
The feeling of “What am I supposed to do?” is totally natural, and something you have in common with a lot of queer people. The simple answer is “Your best”.
If the pin helps your sister, then you’ve earned the title of ally. Does it?
Taking actions to be an Ally has risks for folks in some places. Where I am LBGTQA+ support is the norm and doesn’t really need to be spoken and when it is I’ve never heard anyone in over 10 years say a negative thing.
I have online though seen folks who try to speak up in Allyship of someone else get taken down. Subjected to purity tests by folks in an LGBTQA+ supporting community. It felt like the same bi erasure I’ve experienced and the same transphobia I’ve seen from parts of the LG community in the 2000s. It’s like saying someone isn’t gay if they haven’t come out. All it does is lessen the crew.
LGBTQA+ shouldnt be treated as a club with a rainbow dress code. It should be the future default standpoint of all of humanity.
Counterpoint: you can absolutely self identify as an Ally. For example, I self identity as an Ally and there ain’t shit this adorable platypus can do to stop me.
I’m an Ally because I choose to be, by my words and my actions and the example I set for my children every day. I don’t need an attaboy from any marginalized group to confirm I’m on the right side of history. We do what’s right because it’s right. Full stop.
While I agree with the sentiment, it’s like labelling yourself “a good neighbor” or a “best friend”. You don’t get to decide if you’re “a good neighbor” or not - your neighbors do. You don’t get to decide if you are someone’s best friend - they do. In the exact same way, you don’t get to decide if you’re an ally or not - the group that you’re allied with does.
You can strive to be a good person and identify with being one if that label has been given to you, but certain labels, including “ally”, aren’t ones you can just give yourself.
I can also respect OP and the artists point of view (if they’re not the same individual, not sure if OP is sharing an original piece or someone else’s work) but I just disagree that people don’t get to “be called Allies” unless someone else gives them that title. Being an ally to me is not an honorific, it’s a series of choices.
It’s a series of choices, but those choices can be misguided or wrong without maintaining communication with the group. It also easily slips into the “white savior” trope.
Imagine a person calling themselves a queer ally while actively protesting “LGB without the T”. They are absolutely NOT an ally to the queer community, but without checking in with queer people, they wouldn’t know. Queer people then have to argue with “an ally” to get them to understand why that rhetoric is harmful, which just puts everyone further back.
So, people can call themselves allies, but no one should believe it unless it’s been attributed to them by the group they’re allied with.
Drag thinks you’ve misunderstood the post. The post says you earn the title of ally through your actions. It doesn’t say you earn it through someone else’s actions. Your actions are your choices. Someone else calling you an ally isn’t your action, it’s theirs. So the post is not saying that queer people bestow the title on you, it’s saying you bestow it on yourself. By doing good things.
Centring yourself, talking over, and refusing to listen to the marginalised people whose side you claim to be on - the self identified ally personified!
Genuinely impressive how ignorant and presumptive this reply is. I’m assuming you’re young and I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that your intentions are good here. It seems like you’ve had some bad experiences with bad faith allies in the past and if so, that sucks, and I’m sorry for that. But this is misplaced rage and your energy would probably be better spent elsewhere. I am not your enemy and I never will be.
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No one is in charge of how someone identifies except themselves.
So you’re saying that OP could choose to identify as your significant other, and it would be entirely OP’s decision with none of your input?
Taking that idea and making it about how people can self-identify as allies regardless of their actions is incredibly distasteful.
Wtf? Lol
I identify as ally cus I am gay and I think it is funny to exclaim “I’m just an ally” to my gay friends.
There definitely are queer folks who aren’t allies, though. The whole trans exclusionary LGB thing is an example.
True
Counterpoint: you can absolutely identify as a socialist. For example, the German Nazi party identified as Socialist and there aint shit you can do to stop them /s
also
by my words and actions and the example I set
he confused, but he got the spirit XD
Oooh there’s one for my bingo card. Comment to Nazis in one.
Who do you self identify as an ally of? France? Bosnia? Laos? Do you have a treaty?
Slightly unrelated rant.
I’m tried of these culture wars. It’s complete nonsense. I’m not particularly LGBT+ but it shouldn’t matter. This is about freedom for fucks sake! People just want to live and exercise their human rights! Anybody telling others they mustn’t exist their way is an enemy of humanity! The fact that people get denied jobs and even have their rights restricted, just because some asshole finds out the ID doesn’t match is fucking repulsive!
Recently had a chat with my aunt and she just “you can’t expect people to immediately accept changes”, shut the fuck up! It’s not a change! It’s a core value that’s been in our constitution for longer than any of us have been alive. But clearly, despite being raise on these values, I’m the only one who believes them. Like some fucking santa claus shit!
I got mine from the Emperor of Gay People in the mail just this Friday. I framed it and put it next to my n-word pass on the mantle.
Is that like a one time n-word pass or are you fully certified?
Certified, but I have to kiss Jesse Jackson’s ass every 3 years and maintain NAACP membership for recertification
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Oh yeah, because your support of marginalised people is exactly like our gender, or any other immutable characteristic we get oppressed and even murdered for, well done!!! We should have realised all along - it’s the privileged people who get to look at our oppression from the side line and decide whether to support our right to exist depending on how nice we were to them, who are the real victims here!!! (heavy fucking /s)
What’s next, you gonna come out with your own “blue lives matter” - “ally lives matter”??
Fucking pathetic, but hey, thanks for adding yet another example of exactly the kind of person this post is talking about.
You are not an ally to anyone but your own fragile little ego,
Entering an alliance with someone requires their consent. You can’t just declare you’re allies with France, you have to go talk to a French diplomat first. If you don’t, then you’re free to help France, but France won’t protect you from invaders. If you declare that you’re allied with France without asking them, they might go tell the international community that you’re a liar. That would be a reasonable thing for France to do.
Fortunately, being an ally to queer people is much easier than being an ally of France. Drag is sure you can manage it if you present a strong enough ambassadorial case.
Okay, except lgbt people are not a state and don’t have any diplomats. But even nation states have detractors who don’t agree with the decisions made by the current head of state.
I think people are mad at this post because they don’t like that someone else should appoint themselves the arbiter of someone else’s morality or righteousness.
But there’s no “doing the right thing” people club. No one can tell anyone they aren’t an ally if that person is doing what they can against bigotry and discrimination.
Tbh, I just worry that someone who is judging people by arbitrary purity criteria is going to end up friendless or miss out on friends.
That said, don’t accept shitty friends. If someone isn’t living up to your code, then it’s acceptable to discount them as your friend, but I think it’s unacceptable to say that they’re a bigot or they’re discriminatory (unless they are).
Drag thinks you can call yourself an ally if you think your actions earned it. But if a queer person tells you you’re not and gives a reason, then it’s time to self-crit and really think carefully about why they said that. It means that they didn’t feel like you were helping them. You don’t get to say “nuh uh, I’m doing this for your own good”, that’s not a consensual relationship. Drag has seen that before. Cishet people saying they get to call themselves an ally even if every queer person they know hates them. For example, take J K Rowling. She thinks she’s an ally. She thinks she’s done more to help the queer community than almost anyone. This post is about people like her.
You get to choose if you’re an ally through your actions. If you already do good things to help queer people, then this post has nothing to do with you. The only reason for you to be worried by this post is if you don’t think you’ve done enough. Is that what’s going on here?
I pretty much never, ever post, but you’re a real piece of shit. You’re acting as if anyone who isn’t your idea of marginalized isn’t worthy of their own feelings and definitely not worthy of anyone else’s. You’re worse than the people you’re attacking in this thread and your words and actions will do nothing but move people who may be on the fence regarding their feelings about marginalized groups in a worse direction.
Or you’re a troll. Either way, huuuuge piece of shit.
Hand over your antifa membership card right now!
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It only pushes away the “potential allies” who are unwilling to do anything to help queer people. Who aren’t allies.
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Before I realized and came out as bi, I was in the GSA (gay-straight alliance) in high school as a “straight.” My state was voting to ban gay marriage at the time, and we campaigned against it. I got just as much if not more hate from people than the LGBT members. Maybe because they viewed them as a lost cause? It was usually adults yelling at a 17-year-old kid for being a “betrayer” and a “pervert lover” (I liked that one), just because I supported two consenting adults marrying regardless of gender. Staunch allies definitely earn the title.
During the Afghan/Iraq wars if you were against the war you were"un-American, “stand behind our troops or stand in front of them” I don’t see those people supporting veterans now that those wars are over. They’re a bunch of mooks.
It’s kinda crazy how supporting war isn’t seen as a betrayal of veterans.
It was crazy because we had military recruiters in our highschool every day. I have a lot of friends from back then that joined. I just didn’t want my friends to die for what amounted to a money grab.
