chatgpt has been really good for teaching me code. As long as I write the code myself and just ask for clarity or best practices i haven’t had any bad hallucinations.
For example I wanted to change a character in an array with another one but it would give some error about data types that were way out of my league. Anyways apparently I needed to run list(string) first even though string[5] will return the character.
However that’s in python which I assume is well understood due to the ton of stackoverflow questions and alternative docs. I did ask it to do something in Google docs scripting something once and it had no idea what was going on and just hoped it worked. Fair enough, I also had no idea what was going on.
Because realistically, that time is zero.
The only reason i use ChatGPT for some quick stuff is just that search engines suck so bad.
Perplexity (or open source equivalents) are much better for this.
I usually tell it “using only information found on applicationwebsite.com <question>” that works pretty well at least to get me in the ballpark to find the answer I’m looking for.
Because of I haven’t found anyone asking the same question on a search index, ChatGPT won’t tell me to just use Google or close my question as a duplicate when it’s not a duplicate.
Depending on the task, it’s quicker to verify the AI response than work through the blank page phase.
They don’t give you the answer, they give you a rough idea of where to look for the answer.
I’ve used them to generate chunks of boilerplate code that was 80% of what I needed, because I knew what I needed and wanted to save time.
There are ways of doing that which dont require burning an acre of rainforest
In another thread, I was curious about the probability of reaching the age of 60 while living in the US.
Google gave me an assortment of links to people asking similar questions on Quora, and to some generic actuarial data, and to some totally unrelated bullshit.
ChatGPT gave me a multi-paragraph response referencing its data sources and providing both a general life expectancy and a specific answer broken out by gender. I asked ChatGPT how it reached this answer, and it proceeded to show its work. If I wanted to verify the work myself, ChatGPT gave me source material to cross-check and the calculations it used to find the answer. Google didn’t even come close to answering the question, much less producing the data it used to reach the answer.
I’m as big an AI skeptic as anyone, but it can’t be denied that generic search engines have degraded significantly. I feel like I’m using Alta Vista in the 90s whenever I query Google in the modern day. The AI systems do a marginally better job than old search engines were doing five years ago, before enshittification hit with full force.
It sucks that AI is better, but it IS better.
I just tried out Gemini.
I asked it several questions in the form of ‘are there any things of category x which also are in category y?’ type questions.
It would often confidently reply ‘No, here’s a summary of things that meet all your conditions to fall into category x, but sadly none also fall into category y’.
Then I would reply, ‘wait, you don’t know about thing gamma, which does fall into both x and y?’
To which it would reply ‘Wow, you’re right! It turns out gamma does fall into x and y’ and then give a bit of a description of how/why that is the case.
After that, I would say ‘… so you… lied to me. ok. well anyway, please further describe thing gamma that you previously said you did not know about, but now say that you do know about.’
And that is where it gets … fun?
It always starts with an apology template.
Then, if its some kind of topic that has almost certainly been manually dissuaded from talking about, it then lies again and says ‘actually, I do not know about thing gamma, even though I just told you I did’.
If it is not a topic that it has been manually dissuaded from talking about, it does the apology template and then also further summarizes thing gamma.
…
I asked it ‘do you write code?’ and it gave a moderately lengthy explanation of how it is comprised of code, but does not write its own code.
Cool, not really what I asked. Then command ‘write an implementation of bogo sort in python 3.’
… and then it does that.
…
Awesome. Hooray. Billions and billions of dollars for a shitty way to reform web search results into a coversational form, which is very often confidently wrong and misleading.
Idk why we have to keep re-hashing this debate about whether AI is a trustworthy source or summarizer of information when it’s clear that it isn’t - at least not often enough to justify this level of attention.
It’s not as valuable as the marketing suggests, but it does have some applications where it may be helpful, especially if given a conscious effort to direct it well. It’s better understood as a mild curiosity and a proof of concept for transformer-based machine learning that might eventually lead to something more profound down the road but certainly not as it exists now.
What is really un-compelling, though, is the constant stream of anecdotes about how easy it is to fool into errors. It’s like listening to an adult brag about tricking a kid into thinking chocolate milk comes from brown cows. It makes it seem like there’s some marketing battle being fought over public perception of its value as a product that’s completely detached from how anyone actually uses or understands it as a novel piece of software.
Probably it keeps getting rehashed because people who actually understand how computers work are extremely angry and horrified that basically every idiot executive believes the hype and then asks their underlings to inplement it, and will then blame them for doing what they asked them to do when it turns out their idea was really, unimaginably stupid, but idiot executive gets golden parachute and software person gets fired.
That, and/or the widespread proliferation of this bullshit is making stupid people more stupid, and just making more people stupid in general.
Or how like all the money and energy spent on this is actively murdering the environment and dooming the vast majority of our species, when it could be put toward building affordable housing or renovating crumbling infrastructure.
Don’t worry, if we keep throwing exponential increasing amounts of effort at the thing with exponentially diminishing returns, eventually it’ll become God!
Then why are we talking about someone getting it to spew inaccuracies in order to prove a point, rather than the decision of marketing execs to proliferate its use for a million pointless implementations nobody wants at the expense of far higher energy usage?
Most people already know and understand that it’s bad at most of what execs are trying to push it as, it’s not a public-perception issue. We should be talking about how energy-expensive it is, and curbing its use on tasks where it isn’t anything more than an annoying gimmick. At this point, it’s not that people don’t understand its limitations, it’s that they don’t understand how much energy it’s costing and how it’s being shoved into everything we use without our noticing.
Somebody hopping onto openAI or Gemini to get help with a specific topic or task isn’t the problem. Why are we trading personal anecdotes about sporadic personal usage when the problem is systemic, not individualized?
people who actually understand how computers work
Bit idea for moderators: there should be a site or community-wide auto-mod rule that replaces this phrase with ‘eat all their vegitables’ or something that is equally un-serious and infantilizing as ‘understand how computers work’.
You original comment is posted under mine.
I am going to assume you are responding to that.
… I wasn’t trying to trick it.
I was trying to use it.
This is relevant to my more recent reply to you… because it is an anecdotal example of how broadly useless this technology is.
…
I wasn’t aware the purpose of this joke meme thread was to act as a policy workshop to determine an actionable media campaign aimed at generating mass awareness of the economic downsides of LLMs, which wouldn’t fucking work anyway because LLMs are being pushed by a class of wealthy people who do not fucking care what the masses think, and have essentially zero reason at all to change their course of action.
What, we’re going to boycott the entire tech industry?
Vote them out of office?
These people are on video, on record saying basically, ‘eh, we’re not gonna save the climate, not happening, might as well burn it all down even harder, even faster, for a tiny percentage chance our overcomplicated autocomplete algorithm magically figures out how to fix everything afterward’.
…
And yes, I very intentionally used the phrase ‘understand how computers actually work’ to infantilize and demean corporate executives.
Because they are narcissistic priveleged sociopaths who are almost never qualified, almost always make idiotic decisions that will only benefit themselves and an increasingly shrinking number of people at the expense of the vast majority of people who know more and work harder than they do, and who often respond like children having temper tantrums when they are justly criticized.
Again, in the context of a joke meme thread.
Please get off your high horse, or at least ride it over to a trough of water if you want a reasonable place to try to convince it to drink in the manner in which you prefer.
… I wasn’t trying to trick it.
I was trying to use it.
Err, I’d describe your anecdote more as an attempt to reason with it…? If you were using google to search for an answer to something and it came up with the wrong thing, you wouldn’t then complain back to it about it being wrong, you’d just try again with different terms or move on to something else. If ‘using’ it for you is scolding it as if it’s an incompetent coworker, then maybe the problem isn’t the tool but how you’re trying to use it.
I wasn’t aware the purpose of this joke meme thread was to act as a policy workshop to determine an actionable media campaign
Lmao, it certainly isn’t. Then again, had you been responding with any discernible humor of your own I might not have had reason to take your comment seriously.
And yes, I very intentionally used the phrase ‘understand how computers actually work’ to infantilize and demean corporate executives.
Except your original comment wasn’t directed at corporate executives, it appears to be more of a personal review of the tool itself. Unless your boss was the one asking you to use Gemini? Either way, that phrase is used so much more often as self-aggrandizement and condescension that it’s hard to see it as anything else, especially when it follows an anecdote of that person trying to reason with a piece of software lmao.
It is not that it responded “Sorry, I cannot find anything like what you described, here are some things that are pretty close.”
It affirmatively said “No, no such things as you describe exist, here are some things that are pretty close.”
There’s a huge difference between a coworker saying “Dang man, I dunno, I can’t find a thing like that.” and “No, nothing like that exists, closest to it is x y z,”
The former is honest. The latter is confidently incorrect.
Combine that with “Wait what about gamma?”
And the former is still honest, and the latter, who now describes gamma in great detail and how it meets my requirements, is now an obvious liar, after telling me that nothing like that exists.
If I now know I am dealing with a dishonest interlocutor, now I am forced to consider tricking it into being homest.
Or, if I am less informed or more naive, I might just, you know, believe it the first time.
A standard search engine that is not formatted to resemble talking to a person does not prompt a user to expect it to act like a person, and thus does not suffer from this problem.
If you don’t find what you’re looking for, all that means is you did not find it.
If you are told that no such thing exists, a lot of people are going to believe that no such thing exists.
That is typically called spreading disinformation, when the actor knows what they are claiming is false.
Its worse than unhelpful, it actively spreads lies.
…
Anyway, I’m sorry that you don’t see humor in multi billion dollar technology failing at achieving its purported abilities, I laugh all the time at poorly designed products, systems, things.
…
Finally, I did not use the phrase in contention in my original post.
I used it in my response to you, specifically and only within a single sentence which revolved around incompetent executives.
…
It appears that reading comprehension is not your strong suit, maybe you can ask Gemini about how to improve it.
Err, well, maybe don’t do that.
reading comprehension
Lmao, there should also be an automod rule for this phrase, too.
There’s a huge difference between a coworker saying […]
Lol, you’re still talking about it like it’s a person that can be reasoned with bud. It’s just a piece of software. If it doesn’t give you the response you want you can try using a different prompt, just like if google doesn’t find what you’re looking for you can change your search terms.
If people are gullible enough to take its responses as given (or scold it for not being capable of rational thought lmao) then that’s their problem - just like how people can take the first search result from google without scrutiny if they want to, too. There’s nothing especially problematic about the existence of an AI chatbot that hasn’t been addressed with the advent of every other information technology.
Cool, not really what I asked. Then command ‘write an implementation of bogo sort in python 3.’
… and then it does that.
Alright, but… it did the thing. That’s a feature older search engines couldn’t reliably perform. The output is wonky and the conversational style is misleading. But its not materially worse than sifting through wrong answers on StackExchange or digging through a stack of physical textbooks looking for Python 3 Bogo Sort IRL.
I agree AI has annoying flaws and flubs. And it does appear we’re spending vast resources doing what a marginal improvement to Google five years ago could have done better. But this is better than previous implementations of search, because it gives you discrete applicable answers rather than a collection of dubiously associated web links.
But this is better than previous implementations of search, because it gives you discrete applicable answers rather than a collection of dubiously associated web links.
Except for when you ask it to determine if a thing exists by describing its properties, and then it says no such thing exists while providing a discrete response explaining in detail how there are things that have some, but not all of those properties…
… And then when you ask it specifically about a thing you already know about that has all those properties, it tells you about how it does exist and describes it in detail.
What is the point of a ‘conversational search engine’ if it cannot help you find information unless you already know about said information?!
The whole, entire point of formatting it into a conversational format is to trick people into thinking they are talking to an expert, an archivist with encyclopedaeic knowledge, who will give them accurate answers.
Yet it gatekeeps information that it does have access to but omits.
The format of providing a bunch of likely related links to a query is a format much more reminiscent of doing actual research, with no impression that you will immediately find what you want right away, that this is a tool to aide you in your research process.
This is only an improvement if you want to further unteach people how to do actual research and critical thinking.
copilot did the same with basic math. just to test it I said “let’s say I have a 10x6 rectangle. what number would I have to divide width and height by, in order to end up with a rectangle that’s half the area?”
it said “in order to make it half, you should divide them by 2. so [pointlessly lengthy steps explaining the divisions]”
I said “but that would make the area 5x3 = 15 units which is not half the area of 60”
it said “you’re right! in order to … [fixing the answer to √2 using approximation”
I don’t know if I said it then, or after some other fucking nonsense but when I said “you’re useless” it had the fucking audacity to take offense and end the conversation!
like fuck off, you don’t get to have fake pride if you don’t have basic fake intelligence but use it in your description.
Its a perfect encapsulation of the corpo mindset:
Whatever I do is profound, meaningful, with endless possibilities for future greatness…
… even though I’m just talking out of my ass 99% of the time…
… and if you have the audacity, the nerve, to have a completely normal reaction when you determine that that is what I am doing, pshaw, how uncouth, I won’t stand for your abuse!
…
They’ve done it. They’ve made a talking (not thinking) machine in their own image.
And it was not good.
You start a conversation you can’t even finish it You’re talkin’ a lot, but you’re not sayin’ anything When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed Say something once, why say it again?
Psycho Killer Qu’est-ce que c’est
And then more money spent on adding that additional garbage filter to the beginning and the end of the process which certainly won’t improve the results.
in my use case, the hallucinations are a good thing. I write fiction, in a fictional setting that will probably never actually become a book. If i like what gpt makes up, I might keep it.
Usually, I’ll have a conversation going into detail about a subject, this is me explaining the subject to gpt, then having gpt summarize everything it learned about the subject. I then plug that summary into my wiki of lore that nobody will ever see. Then move on to the next subject. Also gpt can identify potential connections between subjects that I didn’t think about, and wouldn’t have if it didn’t hallucinate them.
I’m convinced people who can’t tell when a chat bot is hallucinating are also bad at telling whether something else they’re reading is true or not. What online are you reading that you’re not fact checking anyway? If you’re writing a report you don’t pull the first fact you find and call it good, you need to find a couple citations for it. If you’re writing code, you don’t just write the program and assume it’s correct, you test it. It’s just a tool and I think most people are coping because they’re bad at using it
Yeah. GPT models are in a good place for coding tbh, I use it every day to support my usual practice, it definitely speeds things up. It’s particularly good for things like identifying niche python packages & providing example use cases so I don’t have to learn shit loads of syntax that I’ll never use again.
In other words, it’s the new version of copying code from Stack Overflow without going to the trouble of properly understanding what it does.
The usefulness of Stack Overflow or a GPT model completely depends on who is using it and how.
It also depends on who or what is answering the question, and I can’t tell you how many times someone new to SO has been scolded or castigated for needing/wanting help understanding something another user thinks is simple. For all of the faults of GPT models, at least they aren’t outright abusive to novices trying to learn something new for themselves.
I know how to write a tree traversal, but I don’t need to because there’s a python module that does it. This was already the case before LLMs. Now, I hardly ever need to do a tree traversal, honestly, and I don’t particularly want to go to the trouble of learning how this particular python module needs me to format the input or whatever for the one time this year I’ve needed to do one. I’d rather just have something made for me so I can move on to my primary focus, which is not tree traversals. It’s not about avoiding understanding, it’s about avoiding unnecessary extra work. And I’m not talking about saving the years of work it takes to learn how to code, I’m talking about the 30 minutes of work it would take for me to learn how to use a module I might never use again. If I do, or if there’s a problem I’ll probably do it properly the second time, but why do it now if there’s a tool that can do it for me with minimum fuss?
Probably because they’re not checking them
Because in a lot of applications you can bypass hallucinations.
- getting sources for something
- as a jump off point for a topic
- to get a second opinion
- to help argue for r against your position on a topic
- get information in a specific format
In all these applications you can bypass hallucinations because either it’s task is non-factual, or it’s verifiable while promoting, or because you will be able to verify in any of the superseding tasks.
Just because it makes shit up sometimes doesn’t mean it’s useless. Like an idiot friend, you can still ask it for opinions or something and it will definitely start you off somewhere helpful.
All LLMs are text completion engines, no matter what fancy bells they tack on.
If your task is some kind of text completion or repetition of text provided in the prompt context LLMs perform wonderfully.
For everything else you are wading through territory you could probably do easier using other methods.
I love the people who are like “I tried to replace Wolfram Alpha with ChatGPT why is none of the math right?” And blame ChatGPT when the problem is all they really needed was a fucking calculator
Also just searching the web in general.
Google is useless for searching the web today.
Not if you want that thing that everyone is on about. Don’t you want to be in with the crowd?! /s
so, basically, even a broken clock is right twice a day?
Yes, but for some tasks mistakes don’t really matter, like “come up with names for my project that does X”. No wrong answers here really, so an LLM is useful.
great value for all that energy it expends, indeed!
Can’t agree
The energy expenditure for GPT models is basically a per-token calculation. Having it generate a list of 3-4 token responses would barely be a blip compared to having it read and respond entire articles.
There might even be a case for certain tasks with a GPT model being more energy efficient than making multiple google searches for the same. Especially considering all the backend activity google tacks on for tracking users and serving ads, complaining about someone using a GPT model for something like generating a list of words is a little like a climate activist yelling at someone for taking their car to the grocery store while standing across the street from a coal-burning power plant.
… someone using a GPT model for something like generating a list of words is a little like a climate activist yelling at someone for taking their car to the grocery store while standing across the street from a coal-burning power plant.
no, it’s like a billion people taking their respective cars to the grocery store multiple times a day each while standing across the street from one coal-burning power plant.
each person can say they are the only one and their individual contribution is negligible. but get all those drips together and you actually have a deluge of unnecessary wastage.
Except each of those drips are subject to the same system that preferences individualized transport
This is still a perfect example, because while you’re nit-picking the personal habits of individuals who are a fraction of a fraction of the total contributors to GPT model usage, huge multi-billion dollar entities are implementing it into things that have no business using it and are representative for 90% of llm queries.
Similar for castigating people for owning ICE vehicles, who are not only uniquely pressued into their use but are also less than 10% of GHG emissions in the first place.
Stop wasting your time attacking individuals using the tech for help in their daily tasks, they aren’t the problem.
No, maybe more like, even a functional clock is wrong every 0.8 days.
https://superuser.com/questions/759730/how-much-clock-drift-is-considered-normal-for-a-non-networked-windows-7-pcThe frequency is probably way higher for most LLMs though lol
Because most people are too lazy to bother with making sure the results are accurate when they sound plausible. They want to believe the hype, and lack critical thinking.
I don’t want to believe any hype! I just want to be able to ask “hey Chatgtp, I’m looking for a YouTube video by technology connections where he discusses dryer heat pumps.” And not have it spit out "it’s called “the neat ways your dryer heat pumps save energy!”
And it is not, that video doesn’t exist. And it’s even harder to disprove it on first glance because the LLM is mimicing what Alex would have called the video. So you look and look with your sisters very inefficient PS4 controller-to-youtube interface… And finally ask it again and it shy flowers you…
But I swear he talked about it ?!?! Anyone?!?
This sound awfully familiar, like almost exactly what people were saying about Wikipedia 20 years ago…
Those people were wrong because wikipedia requires actual citations from credible sources, not comedic subreddits and infowars. Wikipedia is also completely open about the information being summarized, both in who is presenting it and where someone can confirm it is accurate.
AI is a presented to the user as a black box and tries to be portray it as equivalent to human with terms like ‘hallucinations’ which really mean ‘is wrong a bunch, lol’.
Pretty weak analogy. Wikipedia was technologically trivial and did a really good job of avoiding vested interests. Also the hype is orders of magnitude different, noone ever claimed Wikipedia was going to lead to superhuman intelligences or to replacement of swathes of human creative/service workers.
Actually since you mention it, my hot take is that Wikipedia might have been a more significant step forward in AI than openAI/latest generation LLMs. The creation of that corpus is hugely valuable in training and benchmarking models of natural language. Also it actually disrupted an industry (conventional encyclopedias) in a way that I’m struggling to think of anything that LLMs has replaced in the same way thus far.
I only use it for complex searches with results I can usually parse myself like ‘‘list 30 typical household items without descriptions or explainations with no repeating items’’ kind of thing.
great value for all that energy it expends, indeed!
it’s because everyone stopped using it, right?
at least months ago?
